Darth Malak vs Darth Caedus

EmperorCaedus wrote:

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@EmperorCaedus Done, haappy?

Yes.

Now just waiting on the Revanites to respond.

A lot of this is essentially based upon my arguments in our SS. Namely, Kun's Senate TP. Where Jacen struggles to telepathically influence around a hundred or so people, Kun outright dominates the entire Senate with TP. This is a clear showing of superiority. 

Your obvious counterarguments here, naturally, are saying that the amount of people in the Senate isn't quantifiable, so we don't know if Kun TPed more than hundreds of people (which is utter kriff), or relying heavily on the Maul Quote and Vergere scaling. 

Which doesn't work.

For one, Jacen was amped massively when killing Vergere, so there's no way to actually reconcile Rage!Traitor Jacen with Caedus whatsoever. Next, Kenobi is massively below Maul, and it takes a rage amp for him to jump up to Maul's level (just like Jacen had to in order to get to Vergere), and a rage amp let BoROTS Anakin go from decently sub-Dooku to Stomping him with ease. The only time Anakin is ever this powerful again is in his KFV iteration, which is growth Caedus cannot replicate.

Beyond this even, Malak masters the star forge, and according to the Rakatan supercomputer, 

"In your terminology, the Star Forge is a tool of the dark side. It corrupts those who use it so that it can generate greater and greater amounts of negative energy to fuel itself. The Builders thought they were strong enough to control this effect, but they were wrong. They became victims of their own creation, and eventually their hatred turned them against each other. Civil war destroyed the Infinite Empire - a lesson to remember. Only one who is immensely strong in mind can harness the power of the Star Forge without suffering a similar fate."


Meaning that the SF manages to Drain/TP the Rakatans (the entire empire) into civil war and blowing themselves up. This is way beyond Caedus. The individual Star Maps (which Malak scales stupidly above) were capable of corrupting the wildlife of Tatooine and Kashyyyk respectively, that's a Plagueis level feat (assuming that we're considering his "making Naboo undergo a winter" feat legit). 


Caedus just doesn't match this.

Your entire comparison can be refuted by pointing out that TP is a sloppy proxy for power. This is made immediately apparent by analysing Vitiate's fight with Revan during the character's novel. The Sith Emperor can toast Revan on the floor with a short burst of lightning - yet fails to dominate him via TP. Moreover, your arguments are against pro-Jacen points I never made - why don't you try countering the pre-existing one's - which you'll find on the previous page.

Your entire rebuttal can be refuted by pointing out that it's kriff.

For one, Vitiate was empowered by a massive nexus, so powerful that 4000 years later, Luke Skywalker during FOTJ was significantly hindered by it, whereas Revan was either hindered by said nexus, or more or less at base. Next, Revan manages to overcome Vitiate's TP assault, proceeds to charge at him, deflect his attacks, and when Vitiate lets loose a massive barrage of charged lightning, described to be "infinitely more powerful" than that of Nyriss, Revan negates a vast majority of it, transforming a barrage of lightning that was "infinitely more powerful" than the kind that could instantaneously ash a Meetra++ being, making it so that he only receives third-degree burns. Revan, after being captured, tortured, drugged, etc, is able to stave off Vitiate and the Dread Masters' TP for 300 years (and before you bring up Meetra, she only helped replenish his reserves, something he'd need given that Vitiate and the Dread Masters would be able to do as well).

As for your case, all of it revolves around Jacen scaling past Kyp Durron, which would be interesting, but I have a quote that directly contradicts it.


KT (obviously) refers to Karen Traviss, and this quote is from the "Round-Robin Interview", found (I dunno if it's in the normal edition), in the Google Books edition of Legacy of the Force: Inferno. Given that it's in an actual, published work, it holds infinitely more weight than Karen Traviss' other remarks. 

There are two important parts of this quote here, firstly, it says that Jacen has "distorted his perspective on his own fallibility", implying that Jacen isn't the best authority when it comes to his failures (he can make excuses, etc, it doesn't necessarily have any canonical bearing). Then, we have Karen Traviss stating that "Jacen is actually just a very smart guy with an excessively high opinion of himself", which directly contradicts the idea that his faith in his ability is "not misplaced", as having an excessively high opinion of oneself means that their opinion of themselves is way too high. 

Therefore, TP is an accurate gauge for power, and Jacen doesn't scale from Kyp Durron whatsoever (other than in sabers, where Kyp is literally fodder).

@DC77 (Reborn)

Malak one-shots.

KingofBlades wrote:Adas scaling. Tenebrous scaling. Take your pic

What are those?

So despite my bait post(very effective I might add) I'm not interested in a debate in the sense that in a debate We both have our opinions clearly defined and are ready to defend them to the death. I'm looking more for a good faith discussion on this subject. So I won't be looking to debunk Caedus, though I do have questions I will be asking, I will instead be providing a case for Malak's power. Where that power puts him relative to Caedus has yet to be determined(though as of right now my intuition is telling me that Malak should be superior). Let's begin.

If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and
holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish
this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely
been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that
the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone
eras? Some commentators claimed that the ability to
survive death had been limited to those with a talent for
sorcery and alchemy, and that the use of such practices
actually predated the arrival of the Dark Jedi exiles on Korriban. But sorcery had been employed less to extend
life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect
the dead. Powerful adepts were said to have been able to
saturate the atmosphere of planets with dark side energy,compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate.

 we have Plagueis contemplating the feats of the ancient sith like Exar Kun and Naga Sadow. In order to rationalize the grandeur of these feats he posits that the dark side may have been more powerful back then. The need to rationalize these feats implies that none of the banite sith preceding him ,including Tenebrous, were powerful enough to replicate these feats. Now one might say that one must have the gift for sorcery so this wouldn't be proof of the ancients's superiority over Tenebrous, who did not possess the gift of sorcery. However if this were true and Plagueis thought that Tenebrous was indeed more powerful than the ancients, his theory that the dark side was more powerful back then would not have been needed. Making it very likely that Plagueis believes the ancients were above all of the banite line preceding him. Plagueis's opinion is a very useful piece of insight for rarely are we ever privy to a master of the force examining the feats of two or more characters and determining which feats were more impressive. Plagueis being having an elite understanding over the force is the key thing here, since we fail to understand certain nuances about the force(Like whether TPing 10 non force sensitives or TKing a large boulder is more impressive). Plagueis's metric for determining the potency of feats would not suffer from these flaws, ergo his metric should logically be a fair amount more accurate than our own metric when it comes to this. With all of this in mind, I think its fair to say we can reliably scale the ancients, and subsequently Malak as well, above Tenebrous. So right now we have a scaling chain that looks like this:


SF Malak>>Kun>Nadd>Sadow>Tenebrous. 


Now the catch is that Plagueis at his peak later muses that he is the most powerful sith lord ever, so that would make Plagueis>ancients. However, I'm tentative to make this proof of Plagueis believing he is above Malak as he wasn't mentioned. This is something to be noted as its known that the banite archives have certain gaps when it comes to their knowledge about certain individuals, as shown by Sidious knowing virtually nothing about Vitiate and wanking tf out of Malgus. This however doesn't affect their ability to examine and determine the potency of feats, which is what my scaling is built on. There is also the fact that amped characters would not be bound to his musings, otherwise you would get kriff like: Plagueis>Meditation sphere Sadow(1000xamp)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sadow>Tenebrous. So SF Malak being amped considerably means he would not be bound by Plagueis's musings. When you take into account all of these factors, I think its safe to place SF Malak as a peer of peak Plagueis. Now I ask you DC, how does Caedus stack up against this?

Azronger wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:Adas scaling. Tenebrous scaling. Take your pic

What are those?

Tenebrous scaling would be my post, adas scaling is a work in progress so that'll be for sometime in the future

good lord this is like doing a match between vader and malak and we all know that outcome.... caedus sweeps this nerf herder sith lord that not even with a massive amp could not defeat a kotor revan

The lord of hunger wrote:good lord this is like doing a match between vader and malak and we all know that outcome.... caedus sweeps this nerf herder sith lord that not even with a massive amp could not defeat a kotor revan

You're right, Malak annihilates Vader. Why is losing to KOTOR Revan a bad thing? Caedus lost to a ridiculously hindered Luke. Caedus was pressed by Kyle Katarn, Caedus was pressed by Aayla Secura. 

Malak >> Kun who was able to casually freeze the entire senate, as compared to Caedus who was ridiculously pressed by imbuing about a hundred commanders with aggression.

IG (Exists) wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:good lord this is like doing a match between vader and malak and we all know that outcome.... caedus sweeps this nerf herder sith lord that not even with a massive amp could not defeat a kotor revan

You're right, Malak annihilates Vader. Why is losing to KOTOR Revan a bad thing? Caedus lost to a ridiculously hindered Luke. Caedus was pressed by Kyle Katarn, Caedus was pressed by Aayla Secura. 

Malak >> Kun who was able to casually freeze the entire senate, as compared to Caedus who was ridiculously pressed by imbuing about a hundred commanders with aggression.

no just no stop lowballing characters....

You're right, Malak annihilates Vader. 

BreakofDawn wrote:

You're right, Malak annihilates Vader. 

correction vader makes malak his baay shfat

The lord of hunger wrote:

IG (Exists) wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:good lord this is like doing a match between vader and malak and we all know that outcome.... caedus sweeps this nerf herder sith lord that not even with a massive amp could not defeat a kotor revan

You're right, Malak annihilates Vader. Why is losing to KOTOR Revan a bad thing? Caedus lost to a ridiculously hindered Luke. Caedus was pressed by Kyle Katarn, Caedus was pressed by Aayla Secura. 

Malak >> Kun who was able to casually freeze the entire senate, as compared to Caedus who was ridiculously pressed by imbuing about a hundred commanders with aggression.

no just no stop lowballing characters....

If you think I'm lowballing, prove me wrong. I wouldn't mind. My arguments hold, should I accept your concession?

IG (Exists) wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:

IG (Exists) wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:good lord this is like doing a match between vader and malak and we all know that outcome.... caedus sweeps this nerf herder sith lord that not even with a massive amp could not defeat a kotor revan

You're right, Malak annihilates Vader. Why is losing to KOTOR Revan a bad thing? Caedus lost to a ridiculously hindered Luke. Caedus was pressed by Kyle Katarn, Caedus was pressed by Aayla Secura. 

Malak >> Kun who was able to casually freeze the entire senate, as compared to Caedus who was ridiculously pressed by imbuing about a hundred commanders with aggression.

no just no stop lowballing characters....

If you think I'm lowballing, prove me wrong. I wouldn't mind. My arguments hold, should I accept your concession?

i think your idrisian right if so i will leave this debate i already attend the manner on the vine

No you haven’t lmao. Now that I have access to a computer, I can substantiate my claims and whatnot. Don’t tell me to stop lowballing if I can prove my claims.

IG (Exists) wrote:No you haven’t lmao. Now that I have access to a computer, I can substantiate my claims and whatnot. Don’t tell me to stop lowballing if I can prove my claims.

see vader vs malak on the vine i have already spoken dude not try to debate to a guy who lowballs vader so hard that its not funny

Actually debate me, instead of hiding behind “you lowball, I’m scared”.
Low opinions of Vader are common here.

IG (Exists) wrote:Actually debate me, instead of hiding behind “you lowball, I’m scared”.

nah i wil just move on i already debate you on the vader rotj vs malak on the vine no need to derailing the topic even more

Who the hell are you on comic vine? I still annihilated everybody there on mobile... so yeah.

IG (Exists) wrote:Who the hell are you on comic vine? I still annihilated everybody there on mobile... so yeah.

 no kiddo even richard ragdoll you lol 

pd: im el mago so gg dude

Richard died. On mobile I still proved my point; whereas he whined that Spliters is non-canon (spoiler: it is). You got annihilated by claiming the 80% quote means something (it doesn’t)

Would you be willing to formally debate Malak vs Vader? If you’re so sure of yourself I mean.

IG (Exists) wrote:Richard died. On mobile I still proved my point; whereas he whined that Spliters is non-canon (spoiler: it is). You got annihilated by claiming the 80% quote means something (it doesn’t)

even if its vague still matters dude also even if splinter of the mind eye its canon like we said its to lowball vader something that considering the history of the novel and the backstory he has its terrible to use as a argument.

RICHARD96

Maks Leem wrote:RICHARD96

god himself ladies

It’s not vague, explicitly it’s stated he’s 1000x amped and still Vader struggles. Again I ask, would you be willing to debate this?