Darth Vader Vs Mace Windu

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:yall need to chill out. just answer the OP, and btw BOD, its 4 rounds, not 3

Missed that, my mistake:

R1: Probably Vader. Much stronger.
R2: Mace.
R3: Either way but leaning Vader.
R4: Probably Mace.

Uh...

its fine. i dont get offended by kriff for some reason, so its fine lol

ok, thanks guys. What do yall think of the bonus round? wait, did i make one? i forgot lol kark

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:ok, thanks guys. What do yall think of the bonus round? wait, did i make one? i forgot lol kark

Dooku wins, good fight

Mace wins against Vader because of Vaapad, his duel against Sidious and comparisons with Yoda

Iirc, TCW Mace did not master Vaapad yet.

It says TCW Mace?

Nah Mace used vaapad in shatterpoint which Is set in TCW. Mace wins all around except from 3

Noob Debater of Ryloth wrote:Mace wins against Vader because of Vaapad, his duel against Sidious and comparisons with Yoda

Mace had barely begun tapping into Vaapad at this point, and this is before his immense growth to Sidious/Yoda/KFV level.

shatter point takes place in 22 BBY, same time as attack of the clones. and iirc he could barely use it well enough. and i believe that vapaad uses one hatred, and not just the dark side.

Nope. Vaapad uses your love of fighting. It taps into the Dark Side but channels it through the user, although the power that they're channelling can decide its effectiveness. It's why stronger beings like Mace could cope with Haruun Kal's darkness whereas the likes of Depa were overwhelmed. Mace was extremely proficient with Vaapad even at this point (he'd mastered every form, after all), he just never realised how to use it to tap into his full power, nor did he have the benefit of the immense growth in darkness within him in 19 BBY/ROTS.

didnt vapaad use the opponents power to make the user stronger or something like that too?

That's one of the things Mace learned about it. It's stronger on planets like Haruun Kal or against opponents like Sidious where there's more darkness, but you yourself have to be strong enough to channel it without succumbing to it, as Depa and Sora failed to do. Mace is a Sidious/Yoda level being by ROTS because he's able to channel this energy without succumbing to it, which is an insane feat. He also has other feats against the former that put him on that level.

However, Mace at this point has only just skimmed the surface of Vaapad. He refuses to draw upon any of the darkness from the forest and maintains his control, weakening him significantly.

so it does:

- channel the user's darkness to empower them without them becoming dark siders? the more control they have, the more dark sidedness they can use?

- it can take away the darkness of other things, making the user also stronger cuz of that, but not because the user is also using his own darkness? so its a separate power? 

i have a question then. would it technically be less effective against a mentally unstable Vader cuz he isnt a full dark sider yet? so what do u think, would it naturally work on vader? and does it draw on the enemy's hatred, or the enemy's dark sidedness?

Funny how you say Mace was not in Yoda's level yet in the AOTC novellisation iirc, Anakin compares to them, thus putting them in the same league

- channel the user's darkness to empower them without them becoming dark siders? the more control they have, the more dark sidedness they can use?

Basically. Because of the links between willpower, control and power, the stronger you are, the more effective Vaapad becomes. If Depa tried to use Vaapad against Sidious, she'd instantly go insane. 

- it can take away the darkness of other things, making the user also stronger cuz of that, but not because the user is also using his own darkness? so its a separate power?

It's hard to explain but it kind of does both. Think of it like a river. The power the dark sider emits is drawn through the person, through their own darkness, then funnels it out to empower the user. It's why it's so dangerous to use, because you need a combination of discipline, power and willpower to do this. 

i have a question then. would it technically be less effective against a mentally unstable Vader cuz he isnt a full dark sider yet? so what do u think, would it naturally work on vader? and does it draw on the enemy's hatred, or the enemy's dark sidedness?

In theory, it would. However, we've only seen one example of it drawing power from an entity and that was Sidious, who's not your ordinary Sith and who was actively using the dark side. If it doesn't work on his passive dark side aura, it definitely will if Vader uses it for augmentation, Force attacks, etc.

Again, Mace only learns how to do this by ROTS. Shatterpoint Mace was nowhere near as advanced nor as powerful as his ROTS self.

u think i shouldve used a stronger version of vader? or maybe moved it down to AOTC mace windu?

Nah, this is a pretty even fight, tbh. Vaapad won't give Mace any noticeable edge since he can't draw upon Vader and he's <<< his ROTS self. Vader also has feats far surpassing Mace, whose best feats are matching Yoda and Jedi Dooku in spars, ripping down trees, and stomping an army single-handedly. At least one of those feats Vader has far surpassed, and the others he has comparable showings for (except sparring with Yoda, though I don't take sparring as an accurate representation of combat ability considering TPM Obi-Wan challenged TPM Mace in a spar).

ok. i actually finished the speed section for vader. he is fast than i thought tbh. i thought he wouldve been below dooku lvl, but he might be just as fast, if not faster. at least in reaction, and short distances. 

i agree. spars arent accurate, unless it something obvious. I think there is a feat for Obi Wan beating Plo koon too in a spar hahaha

TPM Obi-Wan's beaten everyone of note on the Council except Yoda in a spar at this point, tbh.

man, it always felt like, in TPM, a lot of the characters were wanked for some reason, to me. Like, TPM anakin? this kark could do anything, Kenobi beat Maul, Qui Gon was the biggest ufcking deal, Mace Windu was literally the strongest being alive by hype, Sidious was a supreme G O D, but this seems to have gone down for some reason lol but then Anakin with 10 years of training is weaker than obi wan? this kriff head shouldve been leagues above him by now. Kenobi seems to not have grown almost anything for some reason, Qui Gon was equal to the rest of the council, and was actually passed by other council members, Windu is now on par with Dooku, and has trouble against people that one wouldve thought were way below his league, Sidious shows some fear of some old spirits and considers every moving rock to be a threat, and what not.

Mace was always Dooku tier until ROTS and maybe TCW. He jumped so immensely in level in ROTS because Lucas retconned his standing and power growth. As for Sheev, he's an old man who's scared of any potential threat, even if they're nowhere near him in power. For example, he feared Ventress teaming up with Dooku to destroy him despite Ventress being fodder to Dooku. He's still supreme by DE (and even by ROTS only Valkorion, Krayt, Nyax, etc. can be considered on his level or above him), but he's a master manipulator. Best to eliminate any potential hiccup before it becomes significant than let it grow and risk doing more damage.

i know that, im just saying before new material came out, the characters in seemed to have a higher placement is all lol

Aayla Secura would beat this Vader