TPM Sidious vs ROTS Dooku

What Palpatine boost is every one talking about? Is it canon?

xmysticgohanx wrote:What Palpatine boost is every one talking about? Is it canon?

In the Darth Plagueis novel, upon the death of his master Palpatine feels his power multiply. Plagueis felt the same after the death of Tenebrous.

It's a callback to the Bane novels and his power flowing to each new successor in the Banite line.

now that i think about it, since his power multiplied, he couldve easily gotten 3 times stronger. damn. this amp is kinda like cheating lol

Isn't pre-boost TPM Sidious a TPM Maul speed blitzer?

I don't see what's so impressive about Dooku's performance to Yoda relative to Sidious. Dooku was never competitive with Yoda, all he did was defend himself and fail in his every attempt to anticipate Yoda's maneuver's, while Yoda read him like an open book:

AotC Novel wrote:"Dooku reversed his grip and stabbed out behind him, intercepting the blow. He let go of his weapon altogether, tossing it just a bit, and spun about, catching it before it had even disengaged from Yoda's blade. With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically, three steps forward, two back, perfectly balanced all the while. His fighting style was one based on balance, on the back-and-forth charges, thrusts and sudden retreats, and now he came at Yoda with a series of cunning stabs, angled left and right. Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately. Dooku stabbed up high, turning the angle of his lightsaber in anticipation that Yoda would dodge left. But Yoda, as if in complete anticipation of the movement, veered neither left nor right, but rather, dropped to the ground. The Count had already retracted the missed thrust, and began a second stab, this time down low, but Yoda had anticipated that, too, and went right back up behind the stabbing blade. A sudden stab by Yoda had Dooku quick-stepping back even more off-balance, for the first time, and then Yoda flew away, up and back. The furious Dooku pursued, thrusting hard for Yoda's head. And in his rage when his stab missed yet again, he reverted to a slashing attack. Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay..."

Yoda thoroughly outclassed him. Sidious would do the same just as he did to Maul.

Sidious grew more powerful? Okay sure, but how do you quantify it? TPM Sidious was already comparable to the same black void in the Force from Tenebrous's perspective, same as Dooku did in RotS:

The Tenebrous Way wrote:Now Tenebrous touched upon his apprentice's powers of foresight, which were also vastly more developed than Tenebrous had believed. For a moment. Tenebrous found his perception cast far forward in time - to Plagueis' own death at the hands of his apprentice, who was himself visible only as a smear of darkness....A shadow!

RotS Novel wrote:And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness.A black hole of the Force.

Not seeing a difference in class between TPM and RotS.

@O-Siri I mean, Palpatine dramatically increases per the source that says he has Daily Growth (don't have it on me atm). Dooku in Y:DR nearly stalemates an amped Yoda. I've gone over this already.

IG (Exists) wrote:@O-Siri I mean, Palpatine dramatically increases per the source that says he has Daily Growth (don't have it on me atm). Dooku in Y:DR nearly stalemates an amped Yoda. I've gone over this already.

He stalemates a conflicted Yoda. Once Yoda puts his emotions aside he decisively outclasses amped Dooku just as he did on Geonosis.

O-Siri wrote:

IG (Exists) wrote:@O-Siri I mean, Palpatine dramatically increases per the source that says he has Daily Growth (don't have it on me atm). Dooku in Y:DR nearly stalemates an amped Yoda. I've gone over this already.

He stalemates a conflicted Yoda. Once Yoda puts his emotions aside he decisively outclasses amped Dooku just as he did on Geonosis.

He stalemates a Yoda that loves him enough to kill him, that isn't conflict. And Dooku slowly retreated. This isn't a stomp, he barely lost, and Yoda and him were amped.

IG (Exists) wrote:

O-Siri wrote:

IG (Exists) wrote:@O-Siri I mean, Palpatine dramatically increases per the source that says he has Daily Growth (don't have it on me atm). Dooku in Y:DR nearly stalemates an amped Yoda. I've gone over this already.

He stalemates a conflicted Yoda. Once Yoda puts his emotions aside he decisively outclasses amped Dooku just as he did on Geonosis.

He stalemates a Yoda that loves him enough to kill him, that isn't conflict. And Dooku slowly retreated. This isn't a stomp, he barely lost, and Yoda and him were amped.

No, he lost to a Yoda that loves him enough to mercy kill him. Yoda knew he had to kill Dooku but he didn't want to. That was the conflict of the first part of the fight.  Why is "slowly" always used synonymously with "barely", Sarro Xaj "slowly" drove Zannah back, yet it's clear all the same she was massively outgunned and on the brink of getting killed. He certainly wasn't "barely" beating her, he was decisively beating her down. 

We know from Anakin's own battles with Dooku that conflicting emotions hinder your combative prowess significantly. Hell, it's basic logic. No reason to assume the same is different from Yoda.

no need to see the diff, when we know it exists. him being a blackhole of the force means nothing, if both vader and cronal has equal statements to them. its just a way of saying how powerful they are.

the point of him fighting yoda is that yoda was also amped. meaning that the fight was on even ground. like someone mentioned above, sheev before amp ~ plagueis. Sheev after amp >> Sheev pre amp. ROTS Sheev > Post amp Sheev. Dooku fought fought someone equal to ROTS Sheev. its really not that hard.

Pre boost Sheev loses to Dooku. His performances against Yoda, somebody equal to the ROTS incarnation of Sidious who's a power up + 10 years of growth away from this iteration leads me to believe Dooku is comparatively a lot closer to the ROTS titans. Pre boost Sheev makes him work for it though. Hard.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Pre boost Sheev loses to Dooku. His performances against Yoda, somebody equal to the ROTS incarnation of Sidious who's a power up + 10 years of growth away from this iteration leads me to believe Dooku is comparatively a lot closer to the ROTS titans. Pre boost Sheev makes him work for it though. Hard.

Everything TPM Maul thinks and says about Sidious is before the latter's boost after the death of Plagueis, who he was a peer of before that. Plagueis didn't think much of Maul either.

I doubt ROTS Dooku could stomp TPM Maul.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:no need to see the diff, when we know it exists. him being a blackhole of the force means nothing, if both vader and cronal has equal statements to them. its just a way of saying how powerful they are.

Okay fair enough. I assume the information comes from Shadows of Mindor, the same author of my sources. 

the point of him fighting yoda is that yoda was also amped. meaning that the fight was on even ground.

And lost. And decisively at that once Yoda got his over his conflict. 

sheev before amp ~ plagueis.

Who is decisively above TPM Maul who has relativity to Dooku as per Gillard and Lucas.

Sheev after amp >> Sheev pre amp.

Care to quantify the improvement? Evidence Sidious was bumped an entire class, which he would need to be to negate Dooku's decisive inferiority to Yoda and RotS Sidious?

Dooku fought fought someone equal to ROTS Sheev.

Yep, he attempted a step-up in class and failed miserably on both accounts.

@Corvinus:

I doubt ROTS Dooku could stomp TPM Maul.

That seems to be where we disagree. Moreover it addresses absolutely nothing I just posted.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@Corvinus:

I doubt ROTS Dooku could stomp TPM Maul.

That seems to be where we disagree. Moreover it addresses absolutely nothing I just posted.

How does it address nothing? Pre-boost Sidious can stomp TPM Maul, whereas ROTS Dooku cannot.

Logic follows that ROTS Dooku cannot beat that version of Sidious, let alone any version after that.

@Corvinus:

How does it address nothing? Pre-boost Sidious can stomp TPM Maul, whereas ROTS Dooku cannot.

Logic follows that ROTS Dooku cannot beat that version of Sidious, let alone any version after that.

It doesn't refute the Yoda point. And you're assuming Dooku can't stomp TPM Maul, not proving it. My comparison has evidence, yours doesn't.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@Corvinus:

How does it address nothing? Pre-boost Sidious can stomp TPM Maul, whereas ROTS Dooku cannot.

Logic follows that ROTS Dooku cannot beat that version of Sidious, let alone any version after that.

It doesn't refute the Yoda point. And you're assuming Dooku can't stomp TPM Maul, not proving it. My comparison has evidence, yours doesn't.

I don't need to, the Yoda fight has already been refuted.

Evidence of Dooku losing doesn't help your argument.

1) i believe, so, yes. good, thats done with lol

2) yes, but thats not the point. he lost, after some time mind u, agaisnt someone more or less 2 tiers above pre amp sheev. 

3) u mean pre TPM maul, who at one point gave pre boost sheev a good fight? yeah, i remember him. and TPM maul has no relativity to Dooku. Obi Wan says that Dooku is on a completely different level from him. Actually, isnt TCW maul, who is a good deal more powerful than TPM maul, said to not be in Dooku's level? 

4) IIRC, his amp made star move out of orbit, and he became more powerful than any other sith before him, while before that, he was below plagueis by idk how much. the amp, per logic, made him go from weaker than plagueis to stronger than any other sith who came before him. should be obvious that the amp was big. Actually, before the amp, didnt plagueis think that jedi Dooku wouldve been a good replacement to Sheev? this implies that even though Dooku may have been weaker, he couldve made Dooku more powerful than sheev, so plagueis almost literally proved my point. oh, sith dooku >>> Jedi dooku. 

5) yes, and he dueled better than even sheev did against yoda. hurting yoda with saber is something that only dooku has done, in all of star wars.

@Corvinus:

I don't need to, the Yoda fight has already been refuted.

By whom? And I don't care what somebody else has said. I'm asking you to debunk my argument, right now. Not anybody else, you.

Evidence of Dooku losing doesn't help your argument.

Dooku losing is irrelevant to the point. You've provided no evidence ROTS Dooku can't stomp TPM Maul either.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@Corvinus:

I don't need to, the Yoda fight has already been refuted.

By whom? And I don't care what somebody else has said. I'm asking you to debunk my argument, right now. Not anybody else, you.

Evidence of Dooku losing doesn't help your argument.

Dooku losing is irrelevant to the point. You've provided no evidence ROTS Dooku can't stomp TPM Maul either.

TPM Sidious blitzed TPM Maul who is an 8. Dooku failed to blitz inferior force users like AOTC Kenobi, Ventress or Savage.

@DarthAdi:

TPM Sidious blitzed TPM Maul who is an 8.

When?

Dooku failed to blitz inferior force users like AOTC Kenobi, Ventress or Savage.

Dooku wasn't going all out with Kenobi. Why are Ventress and (amped) Savage weaker than Maul? And Dooku was pre prime regardless.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@Corvinus:

I don't need to, the Yoda fight has already been refuted.

By whom? And I don't care what somebody else has said. I'm asking you to debunk my argument, right now. Not anybody else, you.

Evidence of Dooku losing doesn't help your argument.

Dooku losing is irrelevant to the point. You've provided no evidence ROTS Dooku can't stomp TPM Maul either.

It was refuted on this very page. Why would I copy and paste something on the same page? If you're in a thread, actually read it.

Dooku willingly apprenticed himself to TPM Sidious, and he never caught up to that version of him.

@Corvinus:

It was refuted on this very page. Why would I copy and paste something on the same page?

Make your own argument, don't just copy paste somebody else's work or defer to their POV.

If you're in a thread, actually read it.

Why do I need to read through an entire thread rather than just stating my POV?

Dooku willingly apprenticed himself to TPM Sidious, and he never caught up to that version of him.

A) Proof he never caught up?

B) That's post boost, not pre boost.

@DC77 (Reborn):

When?

Ok, i remembered it wrong. I had the impression that he blitzed Maul very shortly before TPM. This Sidious can still stomp TPM Maul regardless.

Dooku wasn't going all out with Kenobi. Why are Ventress and (amped) Savage weaker than Maul? And Dooku was pre prime regardless.

Revenge Maul is stated to be only as strong as his TPM self. In adition to that he was a bit rusty and not comfortable with his new legs yet. This version of Maul outmatched Kenobi who at this point is most likely above s3 Ventress. Proof that there is any significant gap between TCW Dooku and ROTS Dooku?

Jedi dooku was already a much bigger deal than TPM maul ever was. he couldve likely made short work of TPM maul, tbh