Galen/ Starkiller vs Darth Vader

likely not? i can think of like, one instance where in they explain a loss in a star wars fight lol maybe two

What??? 99% of the time the circumstances (if they're there) are mentioned. You're spewing nonsense and coming to insane conclusions based on shit that isn't stated within the material. I mean if we look at other fights penned by Williams in the novels, he generally highlights the reasons for a character's loss/struggle, e.g. Galen's fights with Brood, Ti, Kota, etc.

i meant authors in general, but why dont u chill the fuck out? how about that?

The Apprentice wrote:INB4 "muh injured, muh psychologically hindered."

Seriously, I can somewhat understand the former argument, but the latter is complete conjecture not supported within the material. Don't you think if Vader was psychologically unbalanced Williams might have actually mentioned it?

When you can only somewhat understand how someone being injured would weaken them and that "psychologically hindered" was meant in reference to his breaking Vader's focus. 

Dafuqs going on fr?

I don't think authors in general just ignore circumstances though. Anyway, that is irrelevant regardless given that Williams has a tendency to highlight circumstances to fights.

HellfireUnit wrote:Dafuqs going on fr?

HP's salty that people have started pointing out how someone having a wound in their neck and shoulder and a lightsaber sized hole in their thigh as well as having their focus and mindset disrupted was a factor in the fight with Starwanker. 

BreakofDawn wrote:

The Apprentice wrote:INB4 "muh injured, muh psychologically hindered."

Seriously, I can somewhat understand the former argument, but the latter is complete conjecture not supported within the material. Don't you think if Vader was psychologically unbalanced Williams might have actually mentioned it?

When you can only somewhat understand how someone being injured would weaken them and that "psychologically hindered" was meant in reference to his breaking Vader's focus. 

1. I can only somewhat understand it because there's no evidence it significantly hindered him, the wounds probably weren't that significant given his armor.

2. I know what it was in reference to... The argument that his focus was broken is based on absolutely nothing.

i can understand, but how many times have we seen the author either contradict the story itself, change their mind later, or literally never talk about it? too many times, is what im trying to say. williams can do what he wants, which is what i would do too, but im not talking about him specifically. i LOVE explanations and details. like, literally love. it makes shit deeper, more interesting, plain old better, so when we have lucas touch upon his thought about the OT 30 years later, it hurts me deep in the heart lol

BreakofDawn wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:Dafuqs going on fr?

HP's salty that people have started pointing out how someone having a wound in their neck and shoulder and a lightsaber sized hole in their thigh as well as having their focus and mindset disrupted was a factor in the fight with Starwanker. 

I'm not really salty, just kinda at a loss for words as to how people can just add their own ideas into the text, and pretend it's what actually happened, even though there's absolutely no textual evidence to support them.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i can understand, but how many times have we seen the author either contradict the story itself, change their mind later, or literally never talk about it? too many times, is what im trying to say. williams can do what he wants, which is what i would do too, but im not talking about him specifically. i LOVE explanations and details. like, literally love. it makes shit deeper, more interesting, plain old better, so when we have lucas touch upon his thought about the OT 30 years later, it hurts me deep in the heart lol

This isn't the author changing the story/contradicting what they wrote, this discussion is literally based on what the author didn't write i.e. Vader being psychologically hindered vs Galen.

1. I can only somewhat understand it because there's no evidence it significantly hindered him, the wounds probably weren't that significant given his armor.

Once again, you're bending the narrative to fit your own purposes.

The wound across the neck was described as striking "deeply" and actually affected Vader enough that he was shocked by it. It was also smoking and noted not to be bleeding, indicating it pierced the skin but cauterised it as lightsabers do:

The lightsabers flashed again—and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader’s lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice’s blade to slash deeply  across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound. 

The shoulder wound was also described as being deep.

The hole in his bloody thigh speaks for itself. Not to mention it likely went straight through the femoral nerve:

The femoral nerve is the major nerve that serves the tissues of the thigh and leg, including the muscles and skin. While the much larger sciatic nerve also passes through the thigh on its way to the lower leg and foot, only the femoral nerve innervates the tissues of the thigh.



Also supported by Vader's prostheses struggling to cope (being described as "whining" as machines do when they develop a fault or massive levels of stress on the machinery) and his lightsaber shaking.

I dont think Vader got emotional either, to be honest, but I will say that he did seem to not have been fight at his best. If that makes sense.

May write out a response tomorrow.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:I dont think Vader got emotional either, to be honest, but I will say that he did seem to not have been fight at his best. If that makes sense.

Then the Dark Lord laughed.
It was an awful sound, empty of humor and full of mockery. In it, the apprentice heard a decade and a half of torture and abuse.
Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh. 
Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking.

Vader laughed. Something that virtually never happens. And the laugh was "an awful sound, empty of humor and full of mockery." The apprentice heard "a decade and a half of torture and abuse" in Vader's laughter. What aspect of that implies to you that Vader didn't get "emotional"? And immediately following Vader's laughter, Galen rushes in and starts thrashing Vader.

For full perspective, the chain of events in the fight goes as follows:

1. Fight starts, Vader takes the early edge because Galen underestimated him. 

He thought he was ready--and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise.

2. Galen takes the full measure of Vader, they start fighting as equals. 

Now, for the first time, they would see each other's true potential. Where Darth Vader was strong and relentless, he was fast and sly.

3. Galen begins trying to taunt Vader, specifically trying to shake Vader's concentration. 

"I understand you now," he said, still trying to goad his former Master into breaking his concentration.

4. This taunting backfires, resulting in Vader gaining an edge in the battle.

The intensity of Darth Vader's attacks redoubled. "I have no father."
The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain. He, on the other hand, had definitely struck a nerve.

5. Galen has his revelation, which many try to attribute giving him a boost in power. 

And the apprentice understood.
A better way to kill . . . 
Not out of hatred. Whatever lay beneath that black mask, it wasn't beauty or happiness. Only ugliness and pain would hide itself away for so long. Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader.

6. During this revelation, Galen needs to break off Vader's attack just to catch his breath. 

Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath. 
"I don't need to hate you in order to beat you," he gasped. "That's something I will teach you now."

7. Immediately after this revelation, Vader is able to successfully Force choke Galen, implying there still isn't a power disparity between the two.

"You can teach me nothing," Darth Vader's leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight. 
He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room. 
For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.

8. Galen only pushes Vader onto Vader's back foot after telling Vader that he pities him. Even then, Galen isn't "stomping" Vader. He has an edge at this point, but Vader isn't incapable of defending himself. It's only after Galen's pity speech that he finally hits Vader, immediately after which Vader lets out that pathetic, torture-ridden laugh. 

"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours--but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."
Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on his back foot.
"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."
The lightsabers flashed again--and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraising to the smoking wound.

9. It's only after the pity speech, the hit to Vader's neck which surprised both combatants, and Vader's pathetic laugh that Galen begins to "stomp." Remember, we've already been told in point 3 that Galen had been deliberately trying to break Vader's concentration. 

So, to sum up, the two had been fighting as equals before Galen's pity speech, with Vader having an edge in the beginning and after Galen's first attempt at psychological warfare. After Galen had his revelation, Vader still choked Galen with the Force, and Galen still needed to break off the engagement with Force lightning just to catch his breath. The revelation itself didn't automatically give Galen an edge. Galen only puts Vader on his back foot after Galen claims to pity Vader. Galen only lands a hit after pointing out how Vader never had the strength to rebel and offering to set Vader free from Sidious through death. And at this point, Galen and Vader are both shocked that Galen lands a hit at all. This can possibly imply neither felt a serious disparity in power, otherwise neither should be that surprised when Galen started winning. And it's at this point that Vader starts letting out his pitiful laughter, which leads to Galen "stomping." 

As for the argument that Sean Williams always includes the context of what allowed a duelist to win, I just have two things to say. First, he always includes the context from the point of view of the main character. That would be Galen Marek/Starkiller in this case. The novels show us everything from Galen's point of view, from his mentality. We don't get to peek into the mind of Darth Vader here, beyond what Galen observes.

Second, he did give us said context, as I just pointed out above. Galen had been trying to break Vader's concentration (point 3), even after Galen's revelation, Vader still Force chokes him and Galen still needs to break the fight off to catch his breath (points 6&7), and Vader lets out a tortured laugh, which should be more than sufficient evidence that Vader's concentration was broken. This implies that it wasn't the revelation itself that gave Galen the edge, but his speech to Vader that proved to be the tipping point. Galen effectively did the opposite to Vader of what Vader did to Luke in RotJ. Instead of stirring Vader into action through his words, he demoralized him. Considering how vital of an aspect willpower is in Star Wars battles, this is a pretty serious advantage to have.

Love this. Waiting for Lorenzo's rebuttal

@Underachiever599

I'll respond to you and BoD during the week sometime (hopefully).

The Apprentice wrote:@Underachiever599

I'll respond to you and BoD during the week sometime (hopefully).

No rush. I'm only in sporadically anyway. Take your time.

What rebuttal?

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:What rebuttal?

I think he was hoping you would post a rebuttal to my post. Since I was technically offering a rebuttal to your statement about Vader not getting emotional.

Lorenzo, what do you have to say in response to @Underachiever599 's claims?

nothing? i made this thread to clear shit up once and for all lol debating is great, so long as it gets somewhere, and in this case, it is. im not gonna intervene when i dont know shit about this.

I'll respond to you and BoD during the week sometime (hopefully).

Only once? More like 100 times.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:nothing? i made this thread to clear shit up once and for all lol debating is great, so long as it gets somewhere, and in this case, it is. im not gonna intervene when i dont know shit about this.

Fair enough