Luke Skywalker vs Darth Maul

Round 1: RotJ Luke (no rage amp) vs TPM Maul
Round 2: RotJ Luke (no rage amp) vs SoD Maul
Round 3: RotJ Luke on an endless rage amp vs SoD Maul

-Fight till Death, KO, or Incapitation
-Takes place in Sidious's Throne Room
-Start 25 Yards Apart
-All other rules are standard

1. Luke.

2. Either way.

3. Luke.

Maul all, though Luke makes him work very hard in Rs 1 and 2.

Luke all rounds

Luke wins in a good fight in the first two. He stomps the third.

SithArchaeologist wrote:Maul all, though Luke makes him work very hard in Rs 1 and 2.

Why do you think Maul wins?

Blade_of_Dorin wrote:

SithArchaeologist wrote:Maul all, though Luke makes him work very hard in Rs 1 and 2.

Why do you think Maul wins?

TPM Maul is demonstrably superior to ANH Vader, per their fight. Maul's growth accolades in TCW are better and more numerous than Vader's in TESB/RotJ. He has far more favorable comparisons to Kenobi than Vader as well. Prime Maul should be solidly superior to RotJ Vader. Luke was fairly even with Vader, and while superior, still a bit below Maul IMO.

SithArchaeologist wrote:

Blade_of_Dorin wrote:

SithArchaeologist wrote:Maul all, though Luke makes him work very hard in Rs 1 and 2.

Why do you think Maul wins?

TPM Maul is demonstrably superior to ANH Vader, per their fight. Maul's growth accolades in TCW are better and more numerous than Vader's in TESB/RotJ. He has far more favorable comparisons to Kenobi than Vader as well. Prime Maul should be solidly superior to RotJ Vader. Luke was fairly even with Vader, and while superior, still a bit below Maul IMO.

Their fight took place in the infinities timeline LMFAO

SithArchaeologist wrote:

Blade_of_Dorin wrote:

SithArchaeologist wrote:Maul all, though Luke makes him work very hard in Rs 1 and 2.

Why do you think Maul wins?

TPM Maul is demonstrably superior to ANH Vader, per their fight. Maul's growth accolades in TCW are better and more numerous than Vader's in TESB/RotJ. He has far more favorable comparisons to Kenobi than Vader as well. Prime Maul should be solidly superior to RotJ Vader. Luke was fairly even with Vader, and while superior, still a bit below Maul IMO.

Took place in the infinities timeline lol. And there are multiple quotes stating that Vader grew a lot in power from ANH to RotJ, one even said that he grew significantly more powerful or something like that. @Azronger would know

Luke wins the third round, the first two are more debatable. Isn't there a quote from Luke years after RotJ saying that if Vader had chosen to employ TK in their fight he'd have destroyed Luke? If that's really the case I don't see what stops Maul from winning via that route. Other than that though, I'm really not sure where to place Galen, Vader or Luke as duelists relative to the PT era.

Luke probably loses the rounds without his rage amp. By my estimation, RotJ Vader and Maul are somewhere around the same level in swordsmanship, but IIRC, Luke's mirroring of Vader's style was made possible by the fact that he had fought him before. Maul's fighting style is considerably more alien to Luke and I'm not sure he can adapt in time. Fightsaber credits Luke and Vader's relative equality to two hindrances — Vader's impaired mobility, and Luke's relative inexperience — Maul doesn't share Vader's hindrance here, while Luke is even more inexperienced against an opponent like Maul.

ILS wrote:Luke wins the third round, the first two are more debatable. Isn't there a quote from Luke years after RotJ saying that if Vader had chosen to employ TK in their fight he'd have destroyed Luke? If that's really the case I don't see what stops Maul from winning via that route. Other than that though, I'm really not sure where to place Galen, Vader or Luke as duelists relative to the PT era.

I would very much like to see that quote if it exists. If it is true then I don't see how that means that Maul gets an automatic win since Vader's TK>Maul's TK

Blade_of_Dorin wrote:

ILS wrote:Luke wins the third round, the first two are more debatable. Isn't there a quote from Luke years after RotJ saying that if Vader had chosen to employ TK in their fight he'd have destroyed Luke? If that's really the case I don't see what stops Maul from winning via that route. Other than that though, I'm really not sure where to place Galen, Vader or Luke as duelists relative to the PT era.

I would very much like to see that quote if it exists. If it is true then I don't see how that means that Maul gets an automatic win since Vader's TK>Maul's TK

I would presume that if Luke and Vader fought as equals, and Vader's intent was to kill, then the only reason not to employ TK is that he couldn't find an opening or break Luke's defences outright. However, if Vader chose not to, that's completely different. The quote is from a book where Luke goes to Dathomir, and while he's being bombarded with TK he remarks that if Vader had chosen to do that to him in their duel he'd have been destroyed.

The reason I say Maul would win via TK as an extension of that is simple. Without having some kind of relativity to Vader's TK, I struggle to think of a single feat Luke has by RotJ that even puts him on par with Obi-Wan. There's pretty much no argument left for him resisting Maul choking him out.

Maul isn't capable of matching up to Luke in terms of sheer Force power, regardless. He could manage to choke Luke by exploiting a lapse in his Force defences, but even with Luke's relative inexperience, I would hardly say it's "automatic".

He doesn't match up to TPM Anakin in sheer Force power either, but you would be hard pressed to make me give a shit about that now wouldn't ya?

ILS wrote:

Blade_of_Dorin wrote:

ILS wrote:Luke wins the third round, the first two are more debatable. Isn't there a quote from Luke years after RotJ saying that if Vader had chosen to employ TK in their fight he'd have destroyed Luke? If that's really the case I don't see what stops Maul from winning via that route. Other than that though, I'm really not sure where to place Galen, Vader or Luke as duelists relative to the PT era.

I would very much like to see that quote if it exists. If it is true then I don't see how that means that Maul gets an automatic win since Vader's TK>Maul's TK

I would presume that if Luke and Vader fought as equals, and Vader's intent was to kill, then the only reason not to employ TK is that he couldn't find an opening or break Luke's defences outright. However, if Vader chose not to, that's completely different. The quote is from a book where Luke goes to Dathomir, and while he's being bombarded with TK he remarks that if Vader had chosen to do that to him in their duel he'd have been destroyed.

The reason I say Maul would win via TK as an extension of that is simple. Without having some kind of relativity to Vader's TK, I struggle to think of a single feat Luke has by RotJ that even puts him on par with Obi-Wan. There's pretty much no argument left for him resisting Maul choking him out.

feats? lets see, ragdolling an ATST comes to mind, plus Lukes growth is insane, if we are truly to believe that he grows according to quotes than by the beginning of ESB to the end of it Luke goes from barely able to call his lightsaber to him in times of desperation to able to contend with one of the greatest swordmasters who ever lived...

Feats mean nothing to luke since he simply has none, it's really his quotes of him being mused Anakin+ by Anakin himself that cement this victory imo.

ILS wrote:He doesn't match up to TPM Anakin in sheer Force power either, but you would be hard pressed to make me give a shit about that now wouldn't ya?

I mean, he would still be choking Anakin through a difference in mastery, rather than raw power...

Nova wrote:

ILS wrote:He doesn't match up to TPM Anakin in sheer Force power either, but you would be hard pressed to make me give a shit about that now wouldn't ya?

I mean, he would still be choking Anakin through a difference in mastery, rather than raw power...

ucanshootmynova

Nova wrote:

ILS wrote:He doesn't match up to TPM Anakin in sheer Force power either, but you would be hard pressed to make me give a shit about that now wouldn't ya?

I mean, he would still be choking Anakin through a difference in mastery, rather than raw power...

You have arrived at my point for me. That's why Maul would choke Luke out. Raw power is nice, but not terribly useful if you can't access it.

I think there's a bit of bias for raw power in the community. Mastery CAN count for something.

ILS wrote:

Nova wrote:

ILS wrote:He doesn't match up to TPM Anakin in sheer Force power either, but you would be hard pressed to make me give a shit about that now wouldn't ya?

I mean, he would still be choking Anakin through a difference in mastery, rather than raw power...

You have arrived at my point for me. That's why Maul would choke Luke out. Raw power is nice, but not terribly useful if you can't access it.

I already mentioned that he could choke Luke out on the grounds of superior mastery, and I imagine that's the way Vader would've done it if he could. I still wouldn't call it an automatic win, though it seems you never did either.

I don't think it's necessary, either way. Maul should be able to claim victory in a saber duel, albeit with considerable difficulty.

ILS wrote:Luke wins the third round, the first two are more debatable. Isn't there a quote from Luke years after RotJ saying that if Vader had chosen to employ TK in their fight he'd have destroyed Luke? If that's really the case I don't see what stops Maul from winning via that route. Other than that though, I'm really not sure where to place Galen, Vader or Luke as duelists relative to the PT era.

@ils: Luke muses that, but it's plausible he's thinking about ESB. To take a sliver from my CaV with Azronger: 

There is a popular misconception that Vader held back against Luke given, in the Courtship of the Princes Leia, Luke muses, “So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me,” after being internally telekinetically attacked by Gethzerion. However, refer to the Return of the Jedi adult novelization and the Return of the Jedi comic quotes. The Return of the Jedi adult novelization highlights Vader’s thoughts during the fight, and Vader himself is shocked by Luke’s strength, concedes Luke might defeat him, and even feels humiliated because of such, making it clear Vader couldn’t just beat Luke with the Force whenever he wished. Next, the Return of the Jedi comic explicitly states that Vader unleashed “his full strength and power” against Luke, so that’s that. Not only would Vader’s own thoughts and an out-of-universe, omniscient narrator take precedence over Luke’s baseless assumption and reveal he is in error, but Luke is likely referring to the Cloud City fight anyway. It makes sense Luke would reflect on a fight where many sources canonically state Vader held back his powers rather than one where overwhelming primary and secondary sources testify Vader give it his all.

To add to that, in The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader novelization, Vader even internally screams that he can't let Luke defeat him. Plus, there's almost a dozen quotes, including the script, stating Luke has grown stronger in the Force since ESB and is now equally powerful and skilled with Vader. So, it's clear that Vader's proactively and desperately trying to defeat Luke, indicating that Vader opting to not use the Force to subdue Luke is more-than-likely because it wouldn't work. Note that Lucas applied to the same logic for the ANH fight, saying that Vader didn't use the Force versus Ben Kenobi because Ben was too powerful.

Meatpants wrote:I think there's a bit of bias for raw power in the community. Mastery CAN count for something.

Agreed, Vader has more mastery than Sidious, while sheev has more raw power

DarthAnt66 wrote:

ILS wrote:Luke wins the third round, the first two are more debatable. Isn't there a quote from Luke years after RotJ saying that if Vader had chosen to employ TK in their fight he'd have destroyed Luke? If that's really the case I don't see what stops Maul from winning via that route. Other than that though, I'm really not sure where to place Galen, Vader or Luke as duelists relative to the PT era.

Luke muses that, but it's plausible he's thinking about ESB. To take a sliver from my CaV with Azronger: 

There is a popular misconception that Vader held back against Luke given, in the Courtship of the Princes Leia, Luke muses, “So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me,” after being internally telekinetically attacked by Gethzerion. However, refer to the Return of the Jedi adult novelization and the Return of the Jedi comic quotes. The Return of the Jedi adult novelization highlights Vader’s thoughts during the fight, and Vader himself is shocked by Luke’s strength, concedes Luke might defeat him, and even feels humiliated because of such, making it clear Vader couldn’t just beat Luke with the Force whenever he wished. Next, the Return of the Jedi comic explicitly states that Vader unleashed “his full strength and power” against Luke, so that’s that. Not only would Vader’s own thoughts and an out-of-universe, omniscient narrator take precedence over Luke’s baseless assumption and reveal he is in error, but Luke is likely referring to the Cloud City fight anyway. It makes sense Luke would reflect on a fight where many sources canonically state Vader held back his powers rather than one where overwhelming primary and secondary sources testify Vader give it his all.

dude you want to go there?


I am genuinely saddened at your apparent desperation to lowball Vader, the dark lord SEEMINGLY holds nothing back. Given the fact that tertiary sources are clear when they say Vader's resolve was flickering and he was unwilling to kill his son at this point in the fight, it is apparent that the SEEMINGLY holds much weight over the whole combative situation as a whole.

For shame Ant, seems like blatant deception to the public considering you didn't even cite the scan.

DarthAnt66 wrote:but Luke is likely referring to the Cloud City fight anyway

Nah, I thought the quote says "fightS" -emphasis on the s at the end- so he's clearly referring to not just the ESB fight but also the RotJ fight as well