Shadow of Revan runs the gauntlet

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:yeah, but neither does mace, unless he gets a mega amp, which allows him to beat a drained sidious, who may very well have been holding back....

I don't even have the energy to debunk this crap (no offence) for the 12th time. No offence to Silver, but that blog he did glosses over any other interpretations or feats for Mace in favour of portraying it as being purely circumstantial.

A distracted, tired and out of Vaapad Mace deflected a Force blast from Sidious intended to send him flying out of the window to the point that he flew in essentially a completely different direction, indicating not only is he within Sheev's power range but also that he has comparable power. And lol at Sheev holding back. The only time Sheev held back was when he saw he was just about to overwhelm an (exhausted) Mace's defences after a fairly lengthy lightning struggle, realised he'd down enough and pretended to be weak. The text explicitly describes Sheev as continuously upping the power of his lightning and feeding it with his pain and fury.

The amp did sod all in both of these situations as the amp itself was tied heavily to Mace's own darkness and acted as a counter to Sheev's (which, again, meant Mace had to have a similar level of power to be able to act as a conduit for that power in the first place). Mace wasn't using it in the Force blast situation, and it was useless for the second encounter, in which an exhausted Mace still had the power to hold off the lightning for a good while.

Besides this, we have TPM Mace being a peer of Jedi Dooku and AOTC/TCW Mace being considered to be his far more powerful Sith equivalent's equal (both of these are before his considerable growth in a matter of months to a solid tier 9), his countless comparisons to Yoda, and him being stated by George to be the only Jedi besides Yoda who could contend with and therefore potentially beat Sidious (MFV notwithstanding). I doubt Caedus is even Dooku/Mace/ROTJ Vader level, so he's certainly not a tier 9 or peer of the ROTS titans.

ur no offense techniques need some work there, bud, btw. no offense.

what does him deflecting lightning for 10 seconds have to do with anything? i never said he is within stomp range, which is exactly what u seem to think i said. for one, i consider mace> dooku, and dooku is already out of that range pre prime in AOTC. 

and even then, wouldnt that make vader>>>>>>>>>>>> mace windu? tanked a much stronger lightning, at a higher intensity, for a longer period of time, and survived. only died due to suit malfunction, which he couldve overcome using the dark side

ur no offense techniques need some work there, bud, btw. no offense.

Sorry, I'm just annoyed at seeing the same anti-Mace arguments still being brought up that are clearly heavily inspired from Silver's blog, which has a clear narrative and refuses to acknowledge Mace's showings in the fight.

what does him deflecting lightning for 10 seconds have to do with anything?

First, in the film he's holding it off for around 31 seconds. Second, it has everything to do with this. If you're exhausted, yet still holding off rapidly increasing power by drawing upon your own massively drained reserves while fighting the second most powerful Sith (at this point in time), then that's a hugely impressive feat.

i never said he is within stomp range, which is exactly what u seem to think i said.

No, I thought you were saying he lacked the feats of a tier 9, which is incorrect.

for one, i consider mace> dooku, and dooku is already out of that range pre prime in AOTC. 

Fair enough. Only indication of this is AOTC Mace believing he could have killed Dooku in the viewing gallery before he could react. Yoda for example believed they were peers.

and even then, wouldnt that make vader>>>>>>>>>>>> mace windu? tanked a much stronger lightning, at a higher intensity, for a longer period of time, and survived. only died due to suit malfunction, which he couldve overcome using the dark side

1. It was nowhere near as long. 
2. He was dying the moment it hit him.
3. As someone who absolutely loves Vader, he was not surviving that. He collapsed and was dying. He even knew he would die:

4. At that instant, Vader sprang up and grabbed the Emperor from behind, pinning Palpatine's upper arras to his torso. Weaker than he'd ever been, Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act - the only action possible; his last, if he failed. Ignoring pain, ignoring his shame and his weaknesses, ignoring the bone-crushing noise in his head, he focused solely and sightlessly on his will - his will to
defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor. Palpatine struggled in the grip of Vader's unfeeling embrace, his hands still shooting bolts of malign energy out in all directions. In his wild flailing, the lightning ripped across the room, tearing into Vader. The Dark Lord fell again, electric currents crackling down his helmet, over his cape, into his heart. Vader stumbled with his load to the middle of the bridge over the black chasm leading to the power core. He held the wailing despot high over his head, and with a final spasm of strength, hurled him into the abyss.

Vader had several minutes and focused all of his willpower on a single act. Mace was exhausted, caught off guard and still held off Sheev's lightning for 30 seconds in the film and possibly even longer in the novel. Not comparable.

the movie also has no mention of said amp, which means he beat sidious fair and square, making him> yoda, which is not the case at all. and uh, why would sheev also not be tired? 

as a duelist, they are equals, but imo, any time before ROTS, mace is less powerful than dooku. i think he surpasses dooku by ROTS.

him dying the moment it hit him means he wouldve died seconds after, so honestly, thats the dumbest i heard about that scene. and it nowhere near as long if u go by the movies. anything but that, and vader's is longer, iirc. i could be wrong, of course, though.

that doesnt say he was dying at all lol, and its a fact that he died due to suit malfunction, there is no circumventing that. 

so cuz a very, very weak vader had a few minutes to amass some power to survive an attack (that he had an unbeatable weakness towards) from the most powerful being alive at that time, its not comparable simply cuz mace was tired? even though palpatine may also have been tired, if we by that line of reasoning? makes sense

the movie also has no mention of said amp, which means he beat sidious fair and square, making him> yoda, which is not the case at all.

That's why we use the novel too. To plug in the gaps.

and uh, why would sheev also not be tired? 

Because he renewed himself for one by drawing upon his anger, hate and Anakin's fear. He also gathered his power. Mace isn't able to do any of these things without Vaapad, which he wasn't using.

as a duelist, they are equals, but imo, any time before ROTS, mace is less powerful than dooku. i think he surpasses dooku by ROTS.

Fair enough.

him dying the moment it hit him means he wouldve died seconds after, so honestly, thats the dumbest i heard about that scene.

It's literally from the novel, which Lucas reviewed. It was all Vader could do to hold on to life until he had his final conversation with Luke. He was a lifeless heap after the act.

and it nowhere near as long if u go by the movies. anything but that, and vader's is longer, iirc. i could be wrong, of course, though.

You are. Vader grabs Sidious and throws him down the reactor shaft in less than 10 seconds. 

that doesnt say he was dying at all lol, and its a fact that he died due to suit malfunction, there is no circumventing that. 

And? It quite clearly is killing him:


4. At that instant, Vader sprang up and grabbed the Emperor from behind, pinning Palpatine's upper arras to his torso. Weaker than he'd ever been, Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act - the only action possible; his last, if he failed. Ignoring pain, ignoring his shame and his weaknesses, ignoring the bone-crushing noise in his head, he focused solely and sightlessly on his will - his will to
defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor. Palpatine struggled in the grip of Vader's unfeeling embrace, his hands still shooting bolts of malign energy out in all directions. In his wild flailing, the lightning ripped across the room, tearing into Vader. The Dark Lord fell again, electric currents crackling down his helmet, over his cape, into his heart. Vader stumbled with his load to the middle of the bridge over the black chasm leading to the power core. He held the wailing despot high over his head, and with a final spasm of strength, hurled him into the abyss.

The lightning was killing him. Say it was because of his life support or not, but it would have most likely killed him regardless. 

so cuz a very, very weak vader had a few minutes to amass some power to survive an attack (that he had an unbeatable weakness towards) from the most powerful being alive at that time, its not comparable simply cuz mace was tired? even though palpatine may also have been tired, if we by that line of reasoning? makes sense

You should know by now that willpower massively impacts your abilities as a Force user. Maul survived being cut in half through sheer willpower. An enraged Luke bested Vader through sheer willpower. Galen entered Oneness through sheer willpower. Anakin Solo carried on fighting despite fatal injuries through sheer willpower. Sidious and Valkorion both survived death through sheer willpower. Vader had several minutes to gather every last scrap of strength and willpower he had, then focused all of his completely focused willpower on Sheev (who didn't expect it and wasn't attacking him at first) to throw him down the pit. You said it yourself, he had an "unbeatable weakness" towards lightning, something his power couldn't overcome. It was literally a kamikaze move meant to save Luke by sacrificing himself to kill Sidious, one that he only managed to accomplish in under 10 seconds and which killed him anyway.

i suppose i agree with everything aside from the lightning. if it was killing him, as in, a continuous thing, it wouldnt have killed him after it stopped. and even if he was suffering from its after effects (which wouldve have been, u guessed it, a malfunctioning suit), he could have healed himself, as he has healed himself many times before, and survived far worse injuries. could he have died from it? 100%. did he die from it? no since, he died like, idk how many minutes after the deed was done, with yet again, a malfunctioning suit. lightning doesnt keep striking the target after its stopped, much less from a dead source lol

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i suppose i agree with everything aside from the lightning. if it was killing him, as in, a continuous thing, it wouldnt have killed him after it stopped. and even if he was suffering from its after effects (which wouldve have been, u guessed it, a malfunctioning suit), he could have healed himself, as he has healed himself many times before, and survived far worse injuries. could he have died from it? 100%. did he die from it? no since, he died like, idk how many minutes after the deed was done, with yet again, a malfunctioning suit. lightning doesnt keep striking the target after its stopped, much less from a dead source lol

Yes, the suit malfunctioned and killed him. It's not really any different from an organic person, who can instantly die from lightning or electricity hitting them since it stops their heart and causes cardiac arrest. It's impressive that he held on for a time afterwards despite dying and being completely helpless, but that's about it.

Stops at 10.

Immortal Emperor wrote:Stops at 10.

How is he beating Mace? And please don't use the "Revan ~/> catatonic, brink of death Vitiate" scaling. It drives me nuts.

Revan ~ SWTOR Vitiate.

Immortal Emperor wrote:Revan ~ SWTOR Vitiate.

*Shoots himself*

6 or 7

@WalkinginCircles: Oh my.

Per the game, all of the Force users felt Vitiate's presence and his power. Hell, even when they were right in front of the Temple he was hiding in they still said he wasn't strong enough.

This point is, quite literally, walking in circles. The only character that suggests Revan couldn't defeat a catatonic Vitiate is Nox, but you admit later down that's either laughable hyperbole (or just a blatantly wrong opinion given the Hero of Tython defeated a far more powerful Vitiate).

The HoT's was not, not was the EW, both of whom encountered Vitiate at a fraction of his full power and who had been exposed to his presence in the past, and thus would have a sense of his current power level. 

The Hero never suggests Vitiate would easily beat Revan, and he's initially even open to Revan killing Vitiate until Marr says Revan would fail. 

The Vitiate the HoT faced was crippled by the deaths of his puppets, the Children, and having his plans completely disrupted. 

Which is, like I said earlier, still way beyond "brink of annihilation" catatonic Vitiate, lol. If you follow your argument to it's logical conclusion, you're arguing:

SOR Revan > Act 3 Hero of Tython > Act 3 Vitiate > Catatonic Vitiate ~ SOR Revan 

And to debunk this theory, even spirit Revan claimed SoR Revan couldn't beat an awakened Vitiate:

"He must be stopped. His fury will only strengthen the Emperor, not destroy him."

And yes, this confirms SoR Revan ~ catatonic Vitiate, which really isn't saying much considering that Vitiate wasn't even strong enough to assume a physical form and was more powerful as of ROTE due to the conflict from Yavin awakening him.

Explain to me why spirit Revan claiming Revan trying to resurrect and destroy Vitiate will only strengthen Vitiate means catatonic Vitiate ~ Revan. Spirit Revan's just stating the obvious -- if Revan resurrects Vitiate, Vitiate will return to his former power and kill Revan. There's no commentary whatsoever about catatonic Vitiate...

---

There's no statements from any character who's both met Vitiate and knows SOR Revan's power that suggests SOR Revan would do anything more than lose to Vitiate. Even Marr, who's never met Revan and seems to have an exaggerated opinion of Vitiate, suggests Vitiate wouldn't be able to solo Yavin IV with Revan on it. Not coincidentally, only the DS protags -- who you were admit were using hyperbole, fought Foundry Revan, and never met Vitiate -- mock that there wouldn't be much of a fight.