Re: Darth Maul vs Darth Wyyrlok III

October 30th 2019, 1:32 pm

Will get back to the rest later as I have to go out in a minute, but just to quote Filoni:

StarWars.com: Can you talk about Maul and Savage versus Sidious? How you depicted it onscreen and the choreography and how it came about?
Dave Filoni: Well, that was definitely one of our biggest challenges, Maul and Savage versus Sidious, because we wanted to have an epic lightsaber fight. We hadn’t really had a big one in awhile, and I really thought this is our chance to show everyone why Sidious is the Sith Lord. Why no one can compete with this guy.
The Vizsla fight, if you can believe it, was actually longer, too. And it’s hard to believe, because I kept cutting that thing down and cutting it down. At the end of the day, with Sidious, nobody was really going to be able to touch him. He had to be the strongest, most dangerous guy. And you could see at a certain point, he just puts his lightsabers away at the end of the fight and says, “I’m done with this,” and goes in and mauls Maul, so to speak.
Filoni establishes that the duo aren't even able to compete with Sheev. He even indicates that Sidious was toying with them "And you could see at a certain point, he just puts his lightsabers away at the end of the fight and says, 'I'm done with this,' and goes in and mauls Maul, so to speak."

Add to that the fact that he ragdolled a rage amped Maul who'd just had the person he was closest to killed in front of him by Sidious, and he could definitely ragdoll a prepared Maul.

October 30th 2019, 1:49 pm Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)

"No one can compete with him"

Again, this doesn't require that he can ragdoll Maul or Savage whenever he pleases.

"nobody was really going to be able to touch him"

I mean, Maul did touch him, as did Savage, but to address the spirit of the statement - being a clear, decisive victor =/= ragdolling your opponents at will.

He puts his lightsabers away "at the end of the fight"... so let's look at that scene again:

https://youtu.be/-7hBZNsPnyg?t=257

So, after a brief exchange where Sidious and Maul both land kicks, they smash into each other in a blade lock. Sidious audibly strains as he overpowers Maul and disarms him. Maul is on his knees panting, looking away - clearly defeated. Then Sidious ragdolls him.

Sidious did not "ragdoll a rage amped Maul" - he ragdolled a defeated, floored Maul who had no defences prepared.

Darth Maul vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 3 Screen13

Darth Maul vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 3 Screen15

Darth Maul vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 3 Screen14

Here's the confusion: this is not that different from when in Sith Hunters Maul chokes Kenobi half to death. Except in that case Kenobi is ready with his lightsaber ignited... but none of us, even I, really accept that Maul can destroy Kenobi with TK whenever he wants. Kenobi is only human, so we'll say he left himself open and Maul took advantage of it. The narrative idea that Maul can destroy Kenobi seems unlikely because there's plenty of times where that would have seemed useful for Maul, where it didn't happen.

In contrast, narratively, it's much more believable that Sidious can destroy Maul that way, even though the evidence for it is even more flaky than Maul destroying Kenobi. And Filoni seems to buy into and to some extent perpetuate that narrative by implying and adding things to the duel which aren't really there. "Nobody can touch Sidious", well not literally. "He puts his lightsabers away and says I'm done with this", yes, because the fight was done. "He was enjoying himself, too", yes, he was, and he was also being strained according to both versions of the fight.

The narrative is that Maul is in a hopeless fight against someone leagues more powerful than him, but the idea that Sidious can ragdoll Maul at will is merely an appendage to that narrative. It's not actually supported by anything. The trouble is, it's much easier to believe certain ideas, even if the evidence is weak, if it fits the narrative. And the problem with narratives (especially on youtube versus debating, where it's almost 95% conjecture), is that you can take a narrative and run away with it and add pieces to it which were never there.

October 31st 2019, 1:58 am

Wyyrlock wins.

October 31st 2019, 8:06 am

i personally dont agree with sidious playing around with him at all, since thats not nearly close to what we see. he was not as full power, but his 'supresse' self was clearly getting pushed back by maul, and even over powered at one point. this show obvious similar skill level, and close force augmentation to say the least. nobody bar god tiers is ever stomping maul in a no force powers fight

October 31st 2019, 10:54 am

LOTL wrote:

Azronger wrote:@O-Siri @Meatpants

Apologies for the sideways scans.

These are game mechanics

You sure they are valid? Because then there is a direct quote putting TPM Kenobi comparable to Plo or Gallia

A line like "Maul doesn't like cowards, and he prefers saber-fighting to Force battles" and all those written similarly aren't game mechanics in themselves. They're referring to game mechanics, but they justify those mechanics with in-universe explanations. Regardless, gameplay is S-canon. In my opinion, it can be used within the constraints of in-universe logic and rationality if there's no contradicting information.

November 1st 2019, 12:00 am

Wyyrlok easily wins in rounds 2 and 3. I think he has good chances in the first, considering that he held against Prime Krayt, who easily stomped such a highly skilled duelist as Cade.

November 1st 2019, 4:22 am

@Shioz

I don't think there's enough conclusive evidence to suggest either of the extreme positions on the Cade vs Krayt fight, that being Krayt >>> Cade or Cade ~ Krayt. Though I do find the pro-Cade arguments more convincing, so let's see if you can change my mind and get me on #teamKrayt. Feel free to present the evidence you believe shows Krayt stomped Cade.

November 1st 2019, 6:23 am

A lightsaber duel lasted about one panel. After that, Krayt quickly reduces the distance and one-shots Cade with the help of DT, without encountering any obstacles in his path. This suggests that Krayt is much faster and more qualified than Cade.

Darth Maul vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 3 Star_w10

I don’t think that the authors would miss part of the battle of the protagonist of the series and the antagonist at such an important moment, but even if you think that part of their battle was behind the scenes, it still doesn’t cancel how easily Krayt killed Cade in the panels above. They show us everything in sequence. If Cade was as skilled a fighter as Krayt, he would not have let so easily pass through his defense and touch himself. Also, I did not see a single moment indicating the competitiveness of Cade in comparison with Resurrection Krayt.

November 1st 2019, 8:59 am

Immortal Emperor wrote:@Shioz

I don't think there's enough conclusive evidence to suggest either of the extreme positions on the Cade vs Krayt fight, that being Krayt >>> Cade or Cade ~ Krayt. Though I do find the pro-Cade arguments more convincing, so let's see if you can change my mind and get me on #teamKrayt. Feel free to present the evidence you believe shows Krayt stomped Cade.

I believe someone made a rather lengthy case for #teamKrayt in this post:

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t1497p25-darth-maul-vs-darth-wyyrlok-iii#28668

November 1st 2019, 1:56 pm

@Shioz

A lightsaber duel lasted about one panel. After that, Krayt quickly reduces the distance and one-shots Cade with the help of DT, without encountering any obstacles in his path.

Great, let's completely miss the off-panel part and conclude the fight was a "one-shot."

This suggests that Krayt is much faster and more qualified than Cade.

Why? How do we know Krayt didn't wear Cade down before "one-shotting him" with DT?

I don’t think that the authors would miss part of the battle of the protagonist of the series and the antagonist at such an important moment, but even if you think that part of their battle was behind the scenes,

Well, we know that some of their battle was off-panel given that they start the duel inside and when we cut back from The Imperial Knights (IIRC that's who it cuts to) they're outside. This isn't really up for discussion, some of the duel factually happened off-panel.

it still doesn’t cancel how easily Krayt killed Cade in the panels above.

Refer to my previous rebuttal.

They show us everything in sequence. If Cade was as skilled a fighter as Krayt, he would not have let so easily pass through his defense and touch himself.

And we're resorting to strawmanning... great. My claim:

I wrote:I don't think there's enough conclusive evidence to suggest either of the extreme positions on the Cade vs Krayt fight, that being Krayt >>> Cade or Cade ~ Krayt.

My post never once hinted at me thinking Cade is = Krayt, in fact, I said the opposite.

Also, I did not see a single moment indicating the competitiveness of Cade in comparison with Resurrection Krayt.

A) I'd say Cade negating Krayt's TK, causing him to look visibly angry and switch to Force Lightning is a pretty good indicator their duel was at least moderately competitive. Plus, Talon being worried by Cade's new mastery of the Force, saying she must warn Krayt afterwards clearly doesn't indicate she thought he'd lose in two panels, and I'm inclined to take her assessments over some Krayt/Wyyrlok fanboy on an online forum given that she has far more knowledge on combat and can put that knowledge to good use given that she has seen them both fight. Plus, she also has the advantage of being able to sense their power through the Force. It also doesn't help your case that any biases she may have will be toward Krayt, not Cade.

B) As explained previously I never stated their fight was competitive, plus it doesn't even have to be for your comparison with Wyyrlok to fall apart. Wyyrlok's Lightsaber duel with Krayt is around a page which is hardly much better than Cade's two panels, especially since 1) Part of Cade's fight happened off-screen and 2) Wyyrlok largely remained defensive in comparison to Cade who left himself open by going on the offensive against Krayt. Overall, as of now, comparisons between Cade and Wyyrlok are completely unjustified as is saying Krayt stomped Cade.

November 1st 2019, 2:07 pm

@ILS I'll respond to you sometime next week, once my SS post is done.

November 1st 2019, 2:08 pm

Homeward Pound

November 1st 2019, 2:25 pm

Can someone very briefly explain the significance of what happened off panel? Is there a quote I'm not cognisant of which states something noteworthy happened in that short time?

There is an off-screen timeskip in Maul's duel with Sidious where it cuts from Sidious holding the brothers blades to Sidious giving ground down a narrow corridor, with Maul pressing forward. I'm curious to hear everyone's take on what happened there as well.

I'm also not aware of a satisfying answer to the question of why Ostrander would create dozens of detailed, 3-8 page long lightsaber duels in the three comic runs he has written, but would leave an apparently very important part of Cade vs Krayt, where for some reason people assume Cade did something important, the climax of Legacy's 55 comic run between the main protagonist and antagonist, out of the comic?

The burden of proof falls squarely on anyone who holds the belief that Cade did any better against Krayt than Maul did against Sidious.

November 1st 2019, 2:33 pm

Also: Krayt was visibly bloodlusted while fighting Wyyrlok, who visibly holds on much longer than Cade and even countered with Memory Walk. Krayt opted not to draw his second saber as is his usual preference against Cade, and was visibly and audibly much calmer fighting him than he was against Wyyrlok.

I also fail to see the significance of Talon saying "omg I should tell Krayt Cade is coming omg!". Talon has never fought Krayt and does not have a measure of his power, and even if she had, why should we care? We saw Krayt fight Cade the first time, we saw the second much less competitive fight.

Like? If I had a red piece of paper, would it not be silly for you to rebuke that fact by saying "omg someone who has seen that paper before says its blue, idk guys maybe the paper is blue?!" ...but we can see that it's red? "Nahnahnah but lets fixate on something someone said and ignore what we can actually observe, I make a lot of sense"

November 1st 2019, 7:46 pm

@ILS Do you have scans for where it’s stated that Kenobi was deflecting and countering Vader’s force blasts?

Nice posts btw, I enjoyed reading them.

November 1st 2019, 9:10 pm

Maul should win tbh.

November 1st 2019, 11:32 pm

Its from the RotS novel. On my phone but it should be easy enough to find if you have access to the novel. It's in the latter half of the fight.

November 1st 2019, 11:52 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Immortal Emperor wrote:Why? How do we know Krayt didn't wear Cade down before "one-shotting him" with DT?

Because it is obvious that almost no time has passed between the two panels. On the first, Krayt and Cade stand close to each other, and Krayt prepares to attack, and on the second he’s one-shots Cade, and this is a continuation of the previous panel.

Immortal Emperor wrote:Well, we know that some of their battle was off-panel given that they start the duel inside and when we cut back from The Imperial Knights (IIRC that's who it cuts to) they're outside. This isn't really up for discussion, some of the duel factually happened off-panel.

Almost all the significant duels in Legacy were shown to us completely, but in this, in your opinion, important points were missed, on the basis of which conclusions could be drawn? The off-screen moments with the Imperial Knights could just as well have happened parallel to the battle of Cade and Krayt, rather than sharing it. Until now, absolutely nothing has disproved that Krayt easily passed through the defense of the armed Cade and killed him in two panels. If this is not so, then you must prove the opposite, not me.

Immortal Emperor wrote:My post never once hinted at me thinking Cade is = Krayt, in fact, I said the opposite.

Not certainly in that way. In your previous post, you explicitly said that you found the arguments in favor of Cade more convincing. When reading the comic, I had the impression that it was Krayt who dragged Cade by telekinesis, based on the fact that we were shown how he uses it. Or Cade himself flies to the other side of him? It is on this panel that Krayt's face is as calm as possible.

Darth Maul vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 3 Njqxwu10

I do not quite understand what is the point of using the words Talon as an argument? She wanted to warn Krayt that Cade had become more powerful, but I don’t see it more applicable to establish at least some parity or competitiveness than Darth Sidious, characterizing Vader as a threat, and most likely this is what is implied. I can’t even understand why this question was raised at all if we are discussing their skill in wielding a lightsaber. Wyyrlok always keeps up with Krayt and crosses blades with him. This is definitely more impressive than Cade, whom Krayt practically blinked and won for two panels just bypassing his defense and touching him. Also, Krayt was serious in his fight with Wyyrlok, while in a fight with Cade he tried to lure him to his side. A certain battle between Cade and Krayt behind the scenes, establishing that Wyyrlok is worse than Cade, no more than your speculation.

Darth Maul vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 3 5gmb7g10

November 2nd 2019, 12:45 am

Fax

Darth Maul vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 3 1289255181

Closed case innit Darth Maul vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 3 2265358366

November 2nd 2019, 3:48 am

Blade_of_Dorin wrote:@ILS Do you have scans for where it’s stated that Kenobi was deflecting and countering Vader’s force blasts?

Nice posts btw, I enjoyed reading them.

Obi-Wan backflipped from the conduit to a coupling nexus of the main collection plant; when Anakin flew in pursuit, Obi-Wan leapt again. They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith novelization

November 2nd 2019, 8:09 am

@Shioz

Because it is obvious that almost no time has passed between the two panels. On the first, Krayt and Cade stand close to each other, and Krayt prepares to attack, and on the second he’s one-shots Cade, and this is a continuation of the previous panel.

I was talking about Krayt wearing Cade down over the course of the off-panel section (during which the duel progresses outside) not between those two panels lmao.

Almost all the significant duels in Legacy were shown to us completely, but in this, in your opinion, important points were missed, on the basis of which conclusions could be drawn?

I never said that anything important happened off-panel, everything we need to know is given to us in the on-panel section of the comic and from that, we can conclude the probable level of difficulty Krayt was given in the section off-panel (i.e. whether it was a stomp or not).

Once again, the comic doesn't give us the full fight, it just shows us the start and end. Solely taking the end of the fight and acting as though we must conclude it was a stomp is disingenuous.

The off-screen moments with the Imperial Knights could just as well have happened parallel to the battle of Cade and Krayt, rather than sharing it.

This doesn't address anything I've said... We know that there is more to the fight given that the battle starts inside and when we cut back Krayt and Cade are outside. As I said, this isn't really up for discussion.

Until now, absolutely nothing has disproved that Krayt easily passed through the defense of the armed Cade and killed him in two panels.

Saying Krayt did so easily is baseless, and as I said, it's irrelevant given that Krayt could have easily worn Cade down over the course of the duel before performing this feat.

If this is not so, then you must prove the opposite, not me.

I've provided ample evidence that Cade clearly isn't fodder for Krayt, you're just choosing to ignore it all and direct your focus on the end of the duel.

Not certainly in that way. In your previous post, you explicitly said that you found the arguments in favor of Cade more convincing.

Yeah, the fact that I find them more convincing than the pro-Krayt arguments (which I've already shown my distaste towards) isn't exactly saying a whole lot. Once again, to restate, my original position was that Cade didn't get stomped by Krayt which you have yet to address. All you've cited thus far is the end of the fight, and unfortunately, I don't consider selectively taking that and acting like it represents the whole fight a convincing argument.

When reading the comic, I had the impression that it was Krayt who dragged Cade by telekinesis, based on the fact that we were shown how he uses it. Or Cade himself flies to the other side of him? It is on this panel that Krayt's face is as calm as possible.

I can't be bothered going over this when I have better things to be doing so here:

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t741-10-most-impressive-tk-feats-in-the-mythos

Ant pretty much addressed this point in the linked thread. Also, if Krayt was casually thrashing Cade with TK then why does he look visibly angry and switch to Force Lightning after employing TK? This is a point you utterly failed to address.

I do not quite understand what is the point of using the words Talon as an argument? She wanted to warn Krayt that Cade had become more powerful, but I don’t see it more applicable to establish at least some parity or competitiveness than Darth Sidious, characterizing Vader as a threat, and most likely this is what is implied

Sidious viewed Vader as a threat, because he was consistently in close proximity to his master and could potentially strikeout and surprise him. Talon's statement is in a completely different context, she knows Cade and Krayt are about to have a fight, and she's worried about how Krayt will do against Cade's new mastery of the Force.

I can’t even understand why this question was raised at all if we are discussing their skill in wielding a lightsaber.

Because if Cade has some proximity in power then he's likely not tiers below in duelling due to augmentation being one of the biggest factors in Lightsaber duels.

Wyyrlok always keeps up with Krayt and crosses blades with him.

Wyyrlok blocked a few strikes from Krayt and massively backpedaled. The duel was relatively short and can hardly be used to place him above Cade especially given the previously mentioned circumstances.

This is definitely more impressive than Cade, whom Krayt practically blinked and won for two panels just bypassing his defense and touching him.

After potentially wearing him down during their duel. Once again, you can't take a singular portion of their fight, isolate it and act like it is an accurate depiction of their respective power levels.

Also, Krayt was serious in his fight with Wyyrlok, while in a fight with Cade he tried to lure him to his side.

The difference in mindset isn't massively relevant, Krayt was still obviously trying his hardest to defeat Cade even if he wasn't trying to kill him.

A certain battle between Cade and Krayt behind the scenes, establishing that Wyyrlok is worse than Cade, no more than your speculation.

I never claimed that there was some incredibly hard-fought battle off-panel where Cade proved his superiority to Wyyrlok lmao. My claim isn't even that Cade is better than Wyyrlok, it's that I don't think the comparisons between Cade and Wyyrlok hold up to scrutiny, plus I don't think Cade vs Krayt was a stomp.

To summarise:

-Cade explicitly negated Krayt's TK in the opening exchange of the duel and Darth Talon's comment clearly doesn't indicate a one-shot gap between Krayt and Cade.

-A significant portion of the duel happened off-panel, during which we don't know what occurred, but we can reasonably infer wasn't a stomp.

-Krayt's "one-shot" of Cade is likely the product of him wearing Cade down over the course of the duel.

-Wyyrlok doesn't really fare any better than Cade, he blocks a few strikes while backpedaling which isn't exactly compelling evidence he's > Cade as a duellist.

-In your post, you strawmann me half a dozen times.

November 2nd 2019, 10:48 am Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)

If you do not like our current style of discussion, I will try to answer on the topic in a more accessible form.

Darth Krayt vs Cade Skywalker

Please note one small detail: in each of his serious battles, Darth Krayt/A'Sharad Hett prefers to use two lightsabers (link). Apparently, this is the most convenient and effective battle style for him. In a duel with Cade, Krayt not only maintains the most carefree mood, but also uses only one blade. Cade does not look tired, on the contrary, he is full of desire to kill Krayt and is still trying to do it. I have already said that it makes no sense to miss part of the culmination battle deciding the entire plot of the series. Many much less significant duels were fully shown in the same comic book. Moreover, the conversation between Krayt and Cade continues when we are returned to their fight, which makes me think that this is really a direct continuation. The battle takes place in the same location, and, as I already mentioned, events with the Imperial Knights could develop in parallel with this duel, what seems convincing in view of all the existing reasons.

Darth Maul vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 3 Star_w11

Krayt was determined to force Cade to surrender and incline him to his side. He does not want to completely destroy his opponent or get rid of him. And at the same time he blitzes and one-shots Cade. Even if I make concessions to you and agree that Cade is tired after an exhausting and lengthy duel with Krayt off-screen, they are unlikely to get any closer because of this:
A) Krayt does not fight Cade seriously and does not try to destroy him, only wanting to incline him to his side.
B) Krayt uses only one lightsaber, while his fighting style is based on a battle with two lightsabers. I do not deny that Krayt can be a master of many forms, but practice shows that with two sabers he is much more comfortable.
C) Cade was so tired that his enemy blitzes him, while Krayt remained just as carefree and strong.
So, Krayt exhausted Cade to death, not fighting in full force and begging the enemy to surrender, which in the end did not affect his own endurance? This almost does not go to the plus of your position, because even if their duel is not one-shot, then it is definitely stomp. It is terrible to imagine what would happen to Cade if the bloodthirsty Krayt fought with him.

Darth Krayt vs Darth Wyyrlok

Darth Maul vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 3 Rco02010

For a fight with Wyyrlok, Krayt immediately uses two of his lightsabers, while in a battle with Cade he needed one. Bloodthirsty Krayt furiously rushes at Wyyrlok, but he successfully copes with his first attack. After that, Wyyrlok blocks the next attack. After that, Wyyrlok blocks the next attack and evades the third, after which he resorts to his Force powers. Unlike the battle with Cade, here is Krayt:
A) By all means tried to kill the opponent and fought seriously.
B) Used both lightsabers, which provides for his regular fighting style.
The fact is that Krayt fights Wyyrlok much more aggressively and uses both lightsabers against him, which, even without taking into account the peculiarities of his style, should clearly indicate great seriousness on his part and proves that he is fighting with all his might. At the same time, Wyyrlok successfully defends itself from his attacks, which I find more impressive than that demonstrated by Cade.

In conclusion, I would say that a bloodthirsty furious Krayt with two lightsabers is much more dangerous than an indifferent holding back Krayt with one sword trying to make you surrender. If I accept your version, Cade will still not be a mile close to Krayt in the overall combat potential, and will hardly compare with the demonstrated Wyyrlok. But I still prefer my version of what is happening, and in this case Wyyrlok is really much more impressive.

Some useless stuff

1. The fact that Talon wants to warn Krayt about Cade’s new strength does not establish competitiveness or closeness between them. She simply might have in mind that Cade is not as simple as he was before, but this does not say anything about the balance of power between Cade and Krayt.
2. There is far from always a correlation between mastery of a lightsaber and abilities of the Force. I do not deny that the connection with the Force and the use of the correct form can contribute to a higher level of skill with a lightsaber (we really saw such examples), but I doubt that, for example, DE Sidious can godstomps Yoda in sabers. Or that Malak >> Vitiate. I can assume that you will find these claims stupid, but even more unreasonably use this in our discussion or as a universal argument for any case.
Your claims to my discussion are strange, given that in the past you almost contradicted your comments and attacked me where I just reasoned. After reading my own messages several times and looking at your discontent, I really did not find a single moment that would not be related to the topic of our conversation.

November 2nd 2019, 11:28 am

Krayt and Cade's fight, and the scuffle between the Imperial Knights potentially happening concurrently is a great point - and not unprecedented. In fact, I just finished reading Jedi Apprentice: The Rising Force wherein sometimes the following chapter was established to have taken place at the same time as the previous chapter. The out-of-universe chronology is not always the same as the in-universe chronology, even within singular works.

There is zero reason to assume anything significant happened off-panel. Zero. It's just inserting fanfiction into a blank space. What we see is what matters - and what we see is a nonchalant and suppressed Krayt casually destroying Cade the whole time.

November 2nd 2019, 11:43 am

Anyone denying that at this point ought to have their head examined.

November 2nd 2019, 12:04 pm

Azronger wrote:

Blade_of_Dorin wrote:@ILS Do you have scans for where it’s stated that Kenobi was deflecting and countering Vader’s force blasts?

Nice posts btw, I enjoyed reading them.

Obi-Wan backflipped from the conduit to a coupling nexus of the main collection plant; when Anakin flew in pursuit, Obi-Wan leapt again. They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith novelization

Thanks