Darth Maul vs Darth Wyyrlok III

Round 1: Sabers Only

Round 2: Force Only

Round 3: All-Out

wyyrlock in force and all out, but maul in saber

Round 1: Maul

Round 2: probably wyyrlok

Round 3: Depends if wyyrlok's telepathy works then he Wind
Otherwise maul probably wins

Maul. He's a better duelist and taught in all Banite arts by Sidious himself; not to mention scaling from Sidious.

If he’s taught in all Banite arts with his level of potential then why does he get stalemated by enraged tpm Kenobi? Receiving elite training is one thing, understanding it all is another

CuckedCurry wrote:If he’s taught in all Banite arts with his level of potential then why does he get stalemated by enraged tpm Kenobi? Receiving elite training is one thing, understanding it all is another

1. This is SoD Maul, who scales quite solidly above TPM Maul for starters.

2. He wasn't just taught in all the Banite arts, he also learnt all of it as well:



-- Star Wars Episode I Junior Jedi Training Manual Read-Along Story Book and CD


There's a distinct difference between merely being taught something, and actually learning it. So he learnt it all as well.

3. For the Kenobi thing, you're excluding a number of factors:

• Maul in TPM prefers a physical victory. That's his motivation. He even enters a trance-like state to focus purely on his saber combat. Augmentation in dueling is rarely, if ever, proportional to someone's power in the Force or capabilities in using the Force offensively and defensively. This is why we see resurrected Maul with the same power as he had in TPM ragdoll a combat-ready Obi-Wan during one of the TCW comics.
  
• Kenobi was not only enraged and on an aggressive high, but Maul was taken off-guard by the sheer unexpected ferocity of the attack. Furthermore, he wasn't exactly fresh either stamina-wise; Qui-Gon pressed him pretty hard. All these factors combined all allowed Kenobi to gain a stalemate. But as soon as his high disappeared, Maul readjusted relatively easily. This was an A-game moment for Kenobi rather than anything else. Maul's A-game is pressuring Sidious and almost killing him whilst on the verge of physical death, so. 
  
• In terms of lightsaber combat, he didn't just receive elite training, he was one of the most highly trained Sith ever, mastered every form of lightsaber combat, along with mastering Jar'Kai and the saberstaff, and is suggested to be the second most skilled duelist in the galaxy by TPM. Qui-Gon, who's one of the best swordsmen ever and one of the most skilled Jedi in the Order only had an experience advantage against him.
  

Are you really gonna bring up a 2nd tier childs read-along book as evidence that Maul learnt all the Banite tricks (which the source doesn’t even state for that matter, nor does it really state anything really)? 

Power and skill with a blade go hand-in-hand so if Maul really did learn all of the Banite tricks, his power would be well beyond what Jinn and Kenobi were capable of handling, as well of his technical skill (which is directly stated to be insufficient in-and-of-itself in the duel)

Maul hasn’t even scratched the surface in the grand scheme of things, and you have nothing to prove otherwise.

R1: can go either way
R2: Wyyrlok destroy
R3: Wyyrlok win

CuckedCurry wrote:Are you really gonna bring up a 2nd tier childs read-along book as evidence that Maul learnt all the Banite tricks (which the source doesn’t even state for that matter, nor does it really state anything really)? 

The source is just secondary, the point is that resurrected Maul with the same power he had during TPM ragdolled a combat-ready Kenobi who was better than his TPM self. Direct showing of power.

CuckedCurry wrote:Power and skill with a blade go hand-in-hand so if Maul really did learn all of the Banite tricks, his power would be well beyond what Jinn and Kenobi were capable of handling, as well of his technical skill (which is directly stated to be insufficient in-and-of-itself in the duel)

That's just a ridiculous argument. In that case AotC Anakin should be able to beat Yoda because he's got more potential. Augmentation is a skill in of itself. Again, we have TPM level Maul in power ragdolling a better version of Obi-Wan, so there's clearly a difference in capability between sabers and Force, as is the case with virtually anyone.

Nice how you ignored all the factors that go into Kenobi being able to briefly contend one on one with Maul.

Meatpants wrote:Maul in TPM prefers a physical victory. That's his motivation. He even enters a trance-like state to focus purely on his saber combat.

I thought I already debunked that myth. 

"Maul's utter devotion to Form VII's physical focus is telling: he remains silent during his battle with the Jedi on Tatooine and Naboo, desiring a purely physical victory instead of pursuing the "higher tradition of dun moch-domination of his opponent's spirit, which Sith typically achieve through taunts that expose inner doubts and weakness."

Maul prefers the physical victory in the sense that he doesn't like talking while fighting, unlike Dooku and Vader who like to trash talk while they duel. Nothing in that source suggests he's averse to using the Force combatively and indeed he does so on many occasions even as of TPM.

O-Siri wrote:I thought I already debunked that myth.

You mean when you reply a couple of times, but when the going gets tough you just abandon the thread and claim you debunked your opponent's claims later down the line on a fresh argument?

O-Siri wrote:"Maul's utter devotion to Form VII's physical focus is telling: he remains silent during his battle with the Jedi on Tatooine and Naboo, desiring a purely physical victory instead of pursuing the "higher tradition of dun moch-domination of his opponent's spirit, which Sith typically achieve through taunts that expose inner doubts and weakness."

Maul prefers the physical victory in the sense that he doesn't like talking while fighting, unlike Dooku and Vader who like to trash talk while they duel. Nothing in that source suggests he's averse to using the Force combatively and indeed he does so on many occasions even as of TPM.

And that is mutually exclusive with what I said how? He enters a trance-like state to focus purely on his lightsaber combat. I wasn't saying he's unable or incapable of using the Force in combat if he so chose, but he's challenging himself in a physical contest. One of the factors involved in a purely physical contest is not talking, but that doesn't preclude the other crucial detail that he enters a trance to focus on his lightsaber. It's not Maul's character to attempt esoteric Force abilities on a Jedi.

Meatpants wrote:And that is mutually exclusive with what I said how?

It means the source everyone uses to argue Maul doesn't like to use the Force to ragdoll his opponents or those who like to argue Maul is weak as an offensive Force user because of this like the Forcecast, isn't saying what they think it's saying. The writer who most likely watched TPM in its entirety and saw that Maul used the Force more than any other Force user in the movie made it very clear he was referring to psychological warfare, not Force attacks. 

Simply put there is no basis to suggest Maul is self-restricting when it comes to using Force attack and no official source backs this viewpoint up.

He enters a trance-like state to focus purely on his lightsaber combat.

And this is based on what source?

I wasn't saying he's unable or incapable of using the Force in combat if he so chose, but he's challenging himself in a physical contest.

Again this isn't based on any official source. Just baseless speculation and at odds with reality as he uses the Force just as much as Dooku and Vader. 

One of the factors involved in a purely physical contest is not talking, but that doesn't preclude the other crucial detail that he enters a trance to focus on his lightsaber.

If it was crucial the subordinate clause explicating the main clause: "Maul's utter devotion to Form VII's physical focus is telling" would have included his lack of offensive Force focus, instead it makes it clear the author meant psychological combat and no more. It's the simplest explanation. The fact that many readers misread it for a long time and allowed the myth to prevail doesn't change that. 

It's not Maul's character to attempt esoteric Force abilities on a Jedi.

Honestly how often do even Dooku or Vader or heck even Sidious use esoteric Force abilities outside of basic TK and Lightning in combat? But for the record, we do have Maul using the Force to block out the Jedi's use of the Force in both the Journal and the Junior novel so there's that.

Wyyrlock

Knowledge improves power, power improves skill. If Maul knows all of these supposed secrets, then power would be leagues beyond what an enraged Padawan (and yes, that is all Kenobi amounts to. He’s not exceptionally powerful or anything at this point). No idea what you’re talking about with AotC Anakin. AotC Anakin doesn’t know shit and is only good once in a blue moon. Try again

It really is telling that Dooku dwarfs enraged AotC Anakin but Maul is stalemated by enraged TPM Kenobi. Moral of the story is that Maul doesn’t know all of the Banite secrets (not that the source even said that in the first place. Not that the source is even credible in the first place).

O-Siri wrote:It means the source everyone uses to argue Maul doesn't like to use the Force to ragdoll his opponents or those who like to argue Maul is weak as an offensive Force user because of this like the Forcecast, isn't saying what they think it's saying. The writer who most likely watched TPM in its entirety and saw that Maul used the Force more than any other Force user in the movie made it very clear he was referring to psychological warfare, not Force attacks.

Simply put there is no basis to suggest Maul is self-restricting when it comes to using Force attack and no official source backs this viewpoint up.

I repeat, that is mutually exclusive to my statement how?

O-Siri wrote:And this is based on what source?

So, Maul goes into a "trance-like state" to "focus entirely on his saberstaff". The second source literally says that his preferred tactic is lightsaber combat, and "prefers to overwhelm his targets..." This is corroborated in a number of instances. Like against Vosa or Qui-Gon on Tatooine. 

Note also that you conveniently failed to add the first part of the quote you provided: "By the time of the Battle of Naboo, Darth Maul is the product of many years of intense training in physical combat skills, and considers himself a master of a corrupt Sith version of Form VII."

CuckedCurry wrote:Knowledge improves power, power improves skill. If Maul knows all of these supposed secrets, then power would be leagues beyond what an enraged Padawan (and yes, that is all Kenobi amounts to. He’s not exceptionally powerful or anything at this point). No idea what you’re talking about with AotC Anakin. AotC Anakin doesn’t know shit and is only good once in a blue moon. Try again

It really is telling that Dooku dwarfs enraged AotC Anakin but Maul is stalemated by enraged TPM Kenobi. Moral of the story is that Maul doesn’t know all of the Banite secrets (not that the source even said that in the first place. Not that the source is even credible in the first place).

Don't care about your speculation. TPM power Maul ragdolls TCW Kenobi, that's a feat you can't argue against. So then his physical and Force skills are disproportionate (again, like pretty much everyone). Cya

I mean, not a legit ragdoll tbh, caught Kenobi off guard and Grey has already proved that you have to physically position your arms to raise a force shield in TCW. So, just like I always do, I win

its nice and all that maul supposedly knows a bunch of powers and all that, but wyyrlock literally knows about almost everything sidious had around lol maul had a clear and obvious focus in fighting. its cool and all that, but yeah, no, the gap in the force here is pretty big.

Curry ragdolling

CuckedCurry wrote:I mean, not a legit ragdoll tbh, caught Kenobi off guard and Grey has already proved that you have to physically position your arms to raise a force shield in TCW. So, just like I always do, I win

Firstly, Kenobi wasn't caught off guard in that instance, he was directly facing and looking at Maul, he was quite ready to face Maul and attacked him out the blue. Secondly, Force users in TCW only need to use hand gestures against Force pushes, shoves, waves, repulses etc. Even when they're in a choke hold they have the ability to resist and break out of the choke hold if they have the strength.

Though to be fair Kenobi was significantly pre-prime as a Force user.

1. Either way, leaning Maul tho
2. Wyrlock
3. Wyrlock

Latham2000 wrote:

CuckedCurry wrote:I mean, not a legit ragdoll tbh, caught Kenobi off guard and Grey has already proved that you have to physically position your arms to raise a force shield in TCW. So, just like I always do, I win

Firstly, Kenobi wasn't caught off guard in that instance, he was directly facing and looking at Maul, he was quite ready to face Maul and attacked him out the blue. Secondly, Force users in TCW only need to use hand gestures against Force pushes, shoves, waves, repulses etc. Even when they're in a choke hold they have the ability to resist and break out of the choke hold if they have the strength.

Though to be fair Kenobi was significantly pre-prime as a Force user.

Of course he was. The choke hold was that sudden that he had no time to prepare for it, and had no strength left to resist it. Iirc he had to receive medical attention afterwards. I don’t see this instance as being too dissimilar to Ventress’ own choke hold instance on the dreadnaught, where she caught Kenobi and Skywalker off guard with a sudden choke hold.

And we know 100% Kenobi, even at that era, would be able to resist Maul’s hold, as he says he would in Shadow conspiracy. All in all, I wouldn’t use that as an example of Maul’s ‘superior’ power, because he doesn’t demonstrate that he has superior power.

Meatpants wrote:

CuckedCurry wrote:Knowledge improves power, power improves skill. If Maul knows all of these supposed secrets, then power would be leagues beyond what an enraged Padawan (and yes, that is all Kenobi amounts to. He’s not exceptionally powerful or anything at this point). No idea what you’re talking about with AotC Anakin. AotC Anakin doesn’t know shit and is only good once in a blue moon. Try again

It really is telling that Dooku dwarfs enraged AotC Anakin but Maul is stalemated by enraged TPM Kenobi. Moral of the story is that Maul doesn’t know all of the Banite secrets (not that the source even said that in the first place. Not that the source is even credible in the first place).

Don't care about your speculation. TPM power Maul ragdolls TCW Kenobi, that's a feat you can't argue against. So then his physical and Force skills are disproportionate (again, like pretty much everyone). Cya

I assume you are referring to Sith Hunters in which case it is an emotionally fucked Obi Wan

Per Filoni, he is focused and ready to face Maul only in S5, a version of Maul far superior to S4 Maul and is arguably better than him in the episode, the book and per creators intent. 

This line of thought has long been debunked. Also the fact that he is TPM level in of itself debunks the argument, it is not possible to argue that S4 Obi Wan is inferior to enraged TPM Kenobi lol

This smacks of attempt to squeeze as much Jinn hype as possible but you have to understand that Jinn caps out at AoTC Kenobi 

Latham2000 wrote:

CuckedCurry wrote:I mean, not a legit ragdoll tbh, caught Kenobi off guard and Grey has already proved that you have to physically position your arms to raise a force shield in TCW. So, just like I always do, I win

Firstly, Kenobi wasn't caught off guard in that instance, he was directly facing and looking at Maul, he was quite ready to face Maul and attacked him out the blue. Secondly, Force users in TCW only need to use hand gestures against Force pushes, shoves, waves, repulses etc. Even when they're in a choke hold they have the ability to resist and break out of the choke hold if they have the strength.

Though to be fair Kenobi was significantly pre-prime as a Force user.

You literally have an image that has his back to Maul as Maul is gripping him

He is obviously caught off guard lol

Jinn caps out at 25bby Kenobi tbh