Darth Plagueis vs The Outlander

Keep this civil, guys.

1. Why is Dramath's feat in KotET circumstantial when we clearly see what happened on-screen while that is not?

3. Dramath did more than just a suicide blast: he shot a red beam at Valkorion that caused him to stagger, forced him on his knees with gestures resembling telekinesis, and only then sacrificed himself. That's right after coming out of a fight with Arcann and Vaylin, in which he clearly wasn't fodderized.

These ideas go hand-in-hand. 

There's dozens of instances of TK in SWTOR yet, to my knowledge, we've never seen telekinesis manifest as roiling red energies like that. And, by the looks of it, the entire act was Dramath's sacrifice/releasing his essence against Valkorion, not just the final explosion. Otherwise, he wouldn't do the final explosion if he's already forcing Valkorion to his knees conventionally. It kind of looks like Dramath is imbuing a portion of his essence (the red stuff) into Valkorion, then suddenly yanking it out/releasing it in a final explosion that hits Valkorion from two angles. Note the red energies still linger around Valkorion even after Dramath died (so also clearly not TK).

As for the validity of the off-screen fight, the lore does give a rather clear-cut depiction of Vitiate utterly overpowering him. Absence of evidence isn't proof of absence, but it would be expected of a source to make note of some supreme variable if Dramath was actually nigh-infinitely more powerful than Vitiate there. Obviously KOTET introduces the Holocron, but the details around it suggests it was used after Vitiate "broke Dramath's mind" and whatnot.  

2. Why couldn't Dramath have grown over 1450 years when we know that he regained his connection to the Force, and without a physical body, he has no midi-chlorian count capping how powerful he can become?[hideedit]

I actually don't agree at all spirits can become hypothetically infinitely powerful when not burdened by their physical body. But, that point aside (since that's a way more complex meta topic), why couldn't Dramath have been charging up and/or developing an unique power to "pierce Valkorion's armor" (whatever that means) instead? It's unlikely Dramath's just coming up with some never-before-seen ability with some never-before-seen ramification on the spot.

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Also, even if the feat is totally legit and you can somehow scale a spirit below PT Palpatine, I don't see how you can scale his death explosion (that didn't really hurt Valkorion in the long-run) to Plagueis' conventional powers. Nothing puts spirit nor physical Dramath below, like, Plagueis level (the only metrics for his power are his two fights versus Valkorion), and his full potency released in a single weird attack could plausibly be >> PT Palpatine's normal powers. Example: SOR Revan probably isn't as strong as ROTS Palpatine, but I'd definitely argue him using some Marek-like Force explosion would far eclipse Palpatine's general combative Force output.

Azronger wrote:Btw, the thread maker has clearly requested reasons, so I'll be deleting any comments that don't provide any.

Thanks lol. People always tend to miss it.

it amazes me how some people in this thread think outlander would win the sabers only confrontation and they take it for granted .
feats for outlander to justify this ?

since you know plagueis knew all 7 forms and was the master of lightsaber combat , he tought sidious after all .
he defeated venamis : powerful sith trained by tenebrous to specifically counter plagueises own fighting style ,
venamis even had an element of surprise and still lost to plagueis in sabers .
the pace of the fight was also impressive .

so we have the second most powerful sith lord of a banite line well rounded in all aspects (force mastery , lightsaber combat , MM etc.)
vs wanklander .

plagueis takes all rounds : he is superior in sabers , force mastery and everything else basically .

dark_globe wrote:it amazes me how some people in this thread think outlander would win the sabers only confrontation and they take it for granted .
feats for outlander to justify this ?

since you know plagueis knew all 7 forms and was the master of lightsaber combat , he tought sidious after all .
he defeated venamis : powerful sith trained by tenebrous to specifically counter plagueises own fighting style ,
venamis even had an element of surprise and still lost to plagueis in sabers .
the pace of the fight was also impressive .

so we have the second most powerful sith lord of a banite line well rounded in all aspects (force mastery , lightsaber combat , MM etc.)
vs wanklander .

plagueis takes all rounds : he is superior in sabers , force mastery and everything else basically .

Vastly pre-prime Outlander has carved through groups of dark honour guards (who even the Dark Council dreaded facing) on a potent dark side nexus, defeated some of the greatest lightsaber duellists in the galaxy including Darth Malgus, Tol Braga, Warren Sedoru and Senya, carved a path through small armies, frequently described as the Order's greatest combatant even as of chapters 1 and 2 (putting him above the likes of Satele, Tol Braga, Jaric Kaedan and the Barsen'Thor), stomped Sith lords and darths with little effort, considered to have "legendary" martial skill even during this period, out-duelled a (weakened) Vitiate who'd had time to gather his power on a potent dark side nexus (Vitiate had also had centuries to master the Force, making this even more impressive). He's also defeated Arcann in what is implied to be a fairly one-sided fight by chapter 6 (basically his Vaylin-level prime give or take a few days) despite Arcann calling in reinforcements, and carved his way through countless Zakuul knights.

The Outlander simply has better lightsaber feats. He's also more powerful, though I'll concede that Plagueis probably has greater Force mastery and definitely has greater versatility which might allow him to win the Force and all-out rounds. The Outlander lacks the versatility to combat his more esoteric abilities.

as far as round 1 goes:

this is not that impressive .
"stomped" no name sith lords and dark siders .
malgus migh have been one of the best lightsaber combatants of his era but neither he no satele shan are
on par with the best duelists of PT era at all . malgus is strong with the force but as a duelist he falls short in comparison to likes of RoTS obi wan etc .
vitiate is a potato when it comes to lightsaber combat so this is irrelevant in context of pure sabers confrontation .

arcann while better duelist than satele and perhaps even malgus is still not on par with RoTS best duelists .


plagueis also fought armies ( hundreds of best kursid warriors ) without even using a lightsaber or any of his offensive force abilities ,
along with sidious they kill them for training and sport and only used force pikes without receiving even a single scratch  ,
this and him besting venamis is more impressive than any of the outlanders feats you listed .
he was also master to sidious and tought him all lightsaber forms of combat.
(TPM sidious being one of the best duelist himself was still unsure whether or not he could beat plagueis in a fair fight)

TPM maul while very powerful himself and on par with some of the best duelists of the jedi order (qui gon jinn) was just a puppet and
would get absolutely destroyed by either sidious or plagueis in all cathegories (sabers included) .


i think this paints a pretty good picture .

Dude, Qui Gon would’ve won if not for lack of stamina.