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HellfireUnitLevel Six
Re: Yoda vs. Count Dooku & Darth Vader
December 4th 2019, 10:34 am
EmperorCaedus wrote:Yea, I’ll rebuttal in the mean time, sorry it got buried under Lorenzo.
Take your time, no need to rush. I have a busy schedule these days.
lorenzo.r.2ndLevel Three
Re: Yoda vs. Count Dooku & Darth Vader
December 4th 2019, 11:21 am
1. yoda jobbing. i never said he did. i actually said the probability of him jobbing is nigh existent.
2. no, vader is in fact stronger than older yoda. idk about ROTS yoda, who is stronger, but he is in fact stronger than ANH yoda. my respect thread is chronological, so just scroll down to the ANH section.
never.
2. no, vader is in fact stronger than older yoda. idk about ROTS yoda, who is stronger, but he is in fact stronger than ANH yoda. my respect thread is chronological, so just scroll down to the ANH section.
never.
KingofBladesLevel Three
Re: Yoda vs. Count Dooku & Darth Vader
December 4th 2019, 2:51 pm
HU assuming no one gets to your post before me I'll respond to it. There are so many many things about your post I wanna dive into.
- HellfireUnitLevel Six
Re: Yoda vs. Count Dooku & Darth Vader
December 4th 2019, 3:03 pm
KingofBlades wrote:HU assuming no one gets to your post before me I'll respond to it. There are so many many things about your post I wanna dive into.
EC will write a respond but feel free add your thoughts. Always good to debate with you. However I lack time these days and want to save some of my tricks for Ant.
- Quorian DebatistLevel One
Re: Yoda vs. Count Dooku & Darth Vader
January 21st 2020, 2:34 pm
So it's no secret I'm no Anakin fan - not even in the closet for him - but HU was calling me all sorts of racial slurs and expletives under the false pretense that Anakin was indeed "my boy" so I feel compelled to respond to him.
Here is what your typical canned Anakin response would look like to your post.
This is KINGOFBLADES! If my understanding is correct, he is a white male, he likes Anakin, and he likes kissing girls on the lips. Seems like an all around decent guy, so let's see what KINGOFBLADES has to say:
A decent enough response I feel. But you don't want me to just steal someone's else post and write it in my own words, as that's a waste of both of our times hence why I never even attempted to do so.
First off, whether you buy it or not there is a strong contrast in @Gᴏᴀᴛ quotes in favor of Anakin as opposed to vice-versa. So we'll get the ones out of the way that KINGOFBLADES missed.
I missed some too, but I'm not an Anakin fanatic like some pretend they are, so I'll give myself a pass. I just want you to realize that Anakin has a wealth of quotes in his favor. I'm not sure at what point in time or what ratio you start counting them but they greatly outnumber Yoda's. Had the quotes outnumber Yoda's 10:1 would that count towards some sort of "undeniable proof?" Start counting down from there until you're still impressed by how outnumbered Yoda is.
But are you simply a quote guy? I mean, it seems so by your post but lets another direction with this. Something I haven't seen a KINGOFBLADES bring up before in regards to MUSTAFAR! I will avoid bringing up the Guillardian scale though you can insert it where you see fit (KOB did). There is one obvious place it fits here, but I don't want to tread too far on a familiar path here. If you notice it, just assume it's meant to be there without my words tickling your ear.
The only objective universal constant in Star Wars is yes, The Kenobian Scale. Let's tinker around with that here until it fits.
First off, we have AOTC!Anakin being above AOTC!Kenobi:
(Also note that Anakin helped exhaust Dooku here and then Yoda fought that Dooku)
We then have TCWMovie!Anakin almost matching Dooku (while Kenobi struggles with Ventress):
It's noted that Dooku is impressed by his growth (incase you didn't watch video):
Anakin then does extremely well against Dooku again.
Anakin greatly outdoes S6!Kenobi in a fight again.
Then of course ROTS!Anakin outdoes Kenobi against Dooku again. Then he goes Zonakin and obliterates Dooku. KINGOFBLADES touched upon this more in-depth.
Another Kenobian example is Sai Sircu. The events of the game happen between S1 and S2 of TCW. Here she casually one-shots Kenobi/Fisto while Dooku tanks it:
After she gets a powerup, Anakin/Mace are able to tank her attack and fight her as well:
What this does is it indicates that Anakin's starting point is above Kenobi, and he always kept ahead of Kenobi to a point where he can annihilate people who can beat Kenobi.
Of course, the Anakin who beat Dooku was still under the thrall of The Dragon while Knightfall Vader had "killed" The Dragon and unlocked his proper Darkside mindset. No longer encumbered by restrictions or his emotions this is his perceived peak.
Here is him "unsealing his shielding" in full context before he even killed The Dragon. This full release made Dooku - who you argued was beating Anakin - look like a joke. "All his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame."
These quotes are especially important because they allow Anakin access to dormant powers he's been holding back. In AOTC he could briefly tap into powers on par with Yoda, but he lacked control over his own powers. Since we also knew his potential far eclipsed Yoda, this wasn't a case of "potential."
(Credit to Ant)
During Mustafar, The Dragon had come back to life when Anakin started doubting himself and he had sunk his poison in him.
This is important to note because when this happened the other two times in the novel, he could barely walk.
(This scan just to confirm what it wanted to do again)
The second section is the mindset he entered the room to see Sheev and Mace fighting. We'll expand on him still being scared well into the fight and before:
So there are some deep psychological issues that affect his strength and ability to well... function.
So going back to Mustafar! Anakin was poisoned by The Dragon and he never dealt with The Dragon like he did on The Invisible Hand or right before Knightfall. He had already fallen to the Darkside and was still subject to his power, so it wasn't an issue of him overcoming it through the Darkside, but rather overcoming it through getting his emotions in check. He didn't know how to use his anger to his benefit anymore and was clouded by rage to a point where he choked his wife almost to death, and was willing to chase Kenobi to the ends of the Earth in places that were utterly retarded to follow him. Not just jumping over him at the end, but Anakin was trying to fight him while climbing and putting himself within a hair's breadth of the lava constantly. If you contrast this to his prior "unlocks" then this would be like him being fully prepared for a Lorenxam vs him just flailing and panicking during a Lorenxam he never studied for. He wasn't dumber, he just didn't have the answers to things he should have known and tried to fake it as best as he could.
Here is what it says about him before he even kills The Dragon at varying points in the novel but allows him to get his emotions in check:
Contrast those descriptions to what it states about Mustafar.
IE, the Fear was still very much a part of him when he fought Obi-Wan. He was calling on power, yes, but he couldn't actively channel that into the same specific mindset that allowed him to throttle Dooku and raid the Jedi Temple. The rage was in his head again but he wasn't effectively putting it "out there" where it needs to be. The fear was still eating away at him and the venom was still in his veins. So, it is very possible he was weaker or rather hindered from his full power at the time. There are more in-depth explanations of this to be found I'm sure, but I just want to summarize it for you here.
But what does The Kenobian Scale have to do with this? I'm glad you asked.
The thing with Dooku is that he's had 3 fights with Yoda, and all 3 times Yoda failed to subdue or put him down. He's had 2 fights with Mace Windu (once Kenobi helped Mace) and it ended in a stalemate for the amount of time it lasted. Anakin grew to a point where he could rival Dooku and then grew to a point where he could destroy him.
Then Anakin grew past that.
So Anakin was at a level beyond a level where he destroyed Dooku who could give a sturdy challenge to the other two top Jedi, and could beat Kenobi or gain the upper hand almost every encounter.
So, if Kenobi and Anakin are then equaled at this point in time it:
a) Validates that The Dragon had indeed hindered Anakin's power
Or
b) Kenobi grew in power by a large enough degree that he jumped Dooku in raw power
The first option speaks for itself, but I want to touch upon the implications of the second.
We accept that Anakin at lesser levels was a decent degree above Dooku. If Kenobi was equal to Anakin this would mean that he jumped past Dooku in raw power - who could challenge Yoda and stalemate Mace - and had jumped past Jedi Anakin in raw power as well.
What this means is that even though Anakin was the young Chosen One who had the potential to be the strongest Force user ever, and was growing by leaps in bounds in TCW to a point where he outpaced Kenobi at every turn; that Kenobi eventually surpassed that. That Dooku who had outpaced Kenobi's growth at every turn had been surpassed. That not only did Kenobi surpass Anakin's Jedi growth, but he also kept in lockstep with Anakin having no restrictions on his power and Kenobi grew to a point where he had matched the entirety of Jedi Anakin's growth and Darkside Anakin's growth.
So if we're to believe Anakin wasn't weakened and was indeed KFV+ levels on Mustafar then that would put Kenobi at quite a ways beyond Dooku. Dooku who could routinely challenge the top three Jedi of all time without ever definitely losing. This would show just how much growth Kenobi received throughout the 9 days (iirc) of ROTS, and it shows that he had more in store than what he ever showed previously.
So why would this be a knock on Anakin exactly? If you're going in this direction it doesn't exactly make Kenobi fodder to Yoda. It doesn't prove that Yoda could overpower Kenobi in a power struggle. If anything it should allow Kenobi to repeat this against Yoda as well. If he can do this against someone beyond Dooku, then he can be stubborn enough to match Yoda too.
All this argument does to me is simply place Kenobi closer than you'd like to think he is to Yoda. It doesn't erase Anakin's feats. It doesn't erase Dooku's feats. It builds on them.
But if you need a visible example to understand, have no fret, I got you:
Mustafar!Vader > KFV > Zonakin > Jedi!Anakin ~ Dooku > Kenobi
Mustafar!Vader ~ Kenobi >>> Dooku < Yoda
I used 3 greater than signs there.
Now while this on its own wouldn't be proof that Kenobi is > or ~ to Yoda, it would certainly bring him close enough that it wouldn't necessarily be a knock against Anakin.
If you're going that direction of course.
I don't know if I'm missing options here, but it seems that either of these two options doesn't impede Anakin's relation to Yoda so you can pick whatever option you want, and it's fine by me. Either Anakin was weakened, or Obi-Wan grew far beyond Dooku to a point that he very well might stalemate or overpower Yoda.
So either you bring down Mustafar!Vader or you raise Mustafar!Kenobi and no matter which way you go, it doesn't hinder whatever Anakin's true peak is in relation to Yoda. At least the way I see it. You have other points, but this is a point you brought up in an effort to lower Anakin and as I see it, your biggest point.
I'm just getting word down from the Kenobi brigade that we should pick option 2.
I used KINGOFBLADES' post because it's applicable. You can ignore it as it is a KOB post, and I can't tell you how to read your KOB posts, but it fits in well. I just wanted to present to you the implications of what you're arguing here as I feel that one part you think was just a small section is actually a lot more important than you'd think. Without Kenobi chaining Anakin to a tier, then what does he really have against him from your post? If you're going to go dirty and go Kenobi on me, then we'll use Kenobi.
On that note, it's not exactly easy to strip through active barriers either. I'm not sure why you expect Anakin to utterly swallow Kenobi's TK? If you're under the understanding that Anakin couldn't utterly ragdoll Kenobi hiding behind a barrier, then why could he ragdoll Kenobi through his max offensive TK? Think of it this way:
Anakin hits a stationary shield with TK defended by Rush Clovis. Rush then gets into a fullsprint rush with the same shield and Anakin TKs him.
If the stationary shield was hard to move, then shouldn't the full sprint shield be just as hard, if not harder to move with the added momentum?
If this same logic applies to Star Wars, it's not hard to see why Anakin didn't instantly blow through his TK. All Kenobi would have to do in this instance is hold it back enough until it started engulfing itself and then went kablooey, and released all the coalesced energy at once point-blank. If Kenobi is powerful enough to hide behind a barrier from Anakin then he should be powerful enough to stave off TK, theoretically.
Now whether this is true or not, or whether this even matters is beside the point. It's also ignoring other sources that say Kenobi attacked and Anakin blocked iirc, but again, besides the point. Just something to throw in there... just something to Church of Chew on.
---
If you are building this into a "Suited Vader > Anakin" conclusion, then we can answer that when it comes too.
@Decaf_Beverages
HellfireUnit wrote:Let's start with debunking the quote.Revenge of the Sith wrote:"The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace."
1 - This quote claims Anakin is the most powerful Jedi of all times. However this quote is only correct when it comes to raw power, lore and featwise, there are many contradictions to this quote. One being:
Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.
Anakin is powerful yes, we all know that. But his lack of knowledge and experience prevents him from reaching full potential, therefore he is unable to use the Force as Sidious or Yoda, even Kenobi and Mace. Anakin always focused on saber combat, barely studied the nature of the Force and its techniques. Him being unable to overpower Kenobi is a proof.
2 - Anakin being the fastest and strongest:
This quote is directly false. Anakin's speed is below Yoda, who is able to blitz several Jedi Masters and match the speed of Emperor whom Anakin being unable to sense. The arguments about honing his senses are based on nothing and if anyone wants to debate it, I am up for that. His speed being equal to Kenobi who is sub post-suit Vader in terms of being fast proves it.
3 - Anakin being an unbeatable and unstoppable pilot/warrior:
False. Kenobi beat him, Dooku was beating him and Kenobi, a non Force Wielder beat him in piloting and he was at Vane's mercy.
This quote has more than three wrong points. It is even less reliable than %80 quote since there are many evidences that contradicts with it.Revenge of the Sith wrote:"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."
This quote contradicts with the first one which appears to be certain about Anakin being the most powerful Jedi of his generation. But now, it is arguable?
Now forget about the previous quotes, lets proceed to part where Anakin being the third most capable swordsman in the order for people who claim him being superior to Yoda:
Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda."
To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen.
With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled.
"We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda."
You are claiming Anakin being superior to Yoda but it is apparent that he is below even Windu.
To summarize, quotes you provide proves nothing and contradicts in-universe and G-Canon sources. I can write way more stuff under this subject but I am saving most for my future debate with Ant. As I said, patience padawan. There is still much I can pour into this topic. Thanks for reading. @EmperorCaedus
Here is what your typical canned Anakin response would look like to your post.
This is KINGOFBLADES! If my understanding is correct, he is a white male, he likes Anakin, and he likes kissing girls on the lips. Seems like an all around decent guy, so let's see what KINGOFBLADES has to say:
- KINGOFBLADES!:
- KingofBlades wrote:In order to truly understand the depths of Knightfall Vader's power, I will first be addressing two misconceptions about Anakin, his power as a jedi as of RotS and his force mastery.
RotS Jedi Anakin>Yoda
Let us compare Anakin's fight with Dooku in his base state and Yoda's fight with Dooku in AotC and DR
Dooku went into a wild flurry then, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan or Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive Master. But Yoda didn't even seem to move. He didn't step back or to the side, yet his subtle dodges and precision parries kept Dooku's blade slashing and stabbing harmlessly wide. It went on and on for many moments, but eventually Dooku's flurry began to slow, and the Count, recognizing the Futility of this attempt to overwhelm, stepped back fast. Not fast enough. With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through. Just as he was about to launch a counter, though, Yoda was gone, leaping high and turning a somersault to land right behind Dooku, in perfect balance, striking hard. Dooku reversed his grip and stabbed out behind him, intercepting the blow. He let go of his weapon altogether, tossing it just a bit, and spun about, catching it before it had even disengaged from Yoda's blade. With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically, three steps forward, two back, perfectly balanced all the while. His fighting style was one based on balance, on the back-and-forth charges, thrusts and sudden retreats, and now he came at Yoda with a series of cunning stabs, angled left and right. Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately.
Dooku stabbed up high, turning the angle of his lightsaber in anticipation that Yoda would dodge left. But Yoda, as if in complete anticipation of the movement, veered neither left nor right, but rather, dropped to the ground. The Count had already retracted the missed thrust, and began a second stab, this time down low, but Yoda had anticipated that, too, and went right back up behind the stabbing blade. A sudden stab by Yoda had Dooku quick-stepping back even more off-balance, for the first time, and then Yoda flew away, up and back. The furious Dooku pursued, thrusting hard for Yoda's head. And in his rage when his stab missed yet again, he reverted to a slashing attack. Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay, locking the two in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force. "Fought well, you have, my old Padawan," Yoda congratulated, and his lightsaber began to move out, just a bit, forcing Dooku back. -AtoC Novel
We see here that Yoda is clearly in control of the fight. He was anticipating Dooku's every move and had him plainly outmached. However Dooku was still able to parry and hold off Yoda's assault without a great deal of difficulty. This is impressive since Yoda has lethal intent in this fight per the AotC script. So while Yoda had a clearly noticeable advantage Dooku was still able to hold his own. Let's move on to their confrontation on Vjun.
Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green
and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly,
Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air,
Yoda was terrible to behold.
"Yes,"Dooku whispered. "Feel me. Feel the treason. All[
those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And
here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious
here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious
Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want
to." Count Dooku lashed out with his lightsaber. Yoda
took a quick step back and felt the heat of the red blade
as it sliced the air centimeters from his tunic. He jumped,
spun, and struck at Dooku's back before he landed.
Dooku turned aside at the last moment, whipping his
blade across the space where Yoda was seconds earlier.
Facing each other again, their blades met,clashed, froze.
"Cunning,are you,"Yoda said, breathing hard.
"I've had excellent teachers,"Dooku said.
Yoda dropped and rolled to the side, his lightsaber
blazing, reaching for Dooku's ankles. Dooku leapt up
and flipped backwards landing lightly to face Yoda
squarely. On his feet again, Yoda whirled and struck at
Dooku, his green blade meeting Dooku's and pushing
him back. Dooku attacked with reckless abandon fueled
with hatred. Their blades hummed together, hissing and
sparking. Dooku brought his blade down toward the
diminutive Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his
blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself.
blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself.
"And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side
whispers and whispers to me . . . love you enough to
destroy you I do."
Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared
stutters of light, blood red and sea green.
Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he
countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white.
(Star Wars Yoda: Dark Rendezvous)
We see once again in this encounter that Yoda holds a noticeable edge in the battle. However Dooku still proves to hold his own. He is driven back only slowly, being able to hold off Yoda's assault, albeit experiencing some fatigue by the end of the fight. Now Dooku is obviously being amped by the nexus on Vjun but not enough to suggest there would be anything more than a case of Yoda dominating but not stomping Dooku on neutral ground. Now let's move on to Anakin's fight with the count on the IH when he's fighting serious but still restraining himself.
Skywalker slammed his
following strike down so hard that the shock of deflecting it
buckled Dooku's elbows. Dooku threw himself into a backroll that
brought him to his feet—and Kenobi's blade was there to meet
his neck. Only a desperate whirling slash-block, coupled with a
wheel kick that caught Kenobi on the thigh, bought him enough
time to leap away again, and when he touched down— Skywalker
was already there.
The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's
instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash
of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his
own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to
give ground.
Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker
came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer
droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step.
Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on
]top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried
to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away;
he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength—not only did the
boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer
physical power was astonishing...Skywalker was all over him.
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand
chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power
of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the
Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and
Skywalker—
Skywalker was getting stronger.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw
Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.
He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.
He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began
to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back
down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until
he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he
dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance
balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher
ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tire-
lessly ferocious.-(RotS Novel)
We see that Anakin while in his base state is utterly dominating Dooku. Dooku finds himself barely able to parry Anakin's blows and getting fatigued at an astonishingly quick rate-to the point that he was bordering on force exhaustion after only a brief period of time. So just by comparing Anakin's performance while in his restrained, base state, to Yoda's performances we see that Anakin is plainly outperforming Yoda in AotC and is performing at least comparably to Yoda in Y:DR when you factor in Vjun's nexus. Since there are no sources showing significant growth for Yoda between the time of Y:DR and RotS, we can only assume Yoda's growth was at best moderate. When you factor in Yoda's growth, he's likely noticeably more powerful than this version of Anakin. However any sense of superiority Yoda may have over Anakin disappears as soon as he goes "Zonakin".
This is the death of Count Dooku:
A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind,
when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear
within his heart can be a weapon, too.
It is that simple, and that complex.
And it is final.
Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.
The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps
and hisses. Dooku and Skywalker, a one-time-only command
performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and
Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping,
parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around
them with snarls of power.
And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed
Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without
effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.
The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere
pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time
curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos.
Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery
of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence,
impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste—the
pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his
time and attention over the long, long years of his life—are now
chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck
before the ax.
Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.
It is this knowledge that shows him his death, makes him
handle it, turn it this way and that in his mind, examine it in detail
like a black gemstone so cold it burns. Dooku's elegant farce has
degenerated into bathetic melodrama, and not one shed tear will
mark the passing of its hero.
But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.
Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in
all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back.
That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his
strength, to whisper him that Dooku has beaten him before, that
Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how
Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan
himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and
he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith—
But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin
permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all
his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.
When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto's fist
cracks out from Anakin's childhood to knock the Sith Lord tum-
bling back.
When with all the power that the dark side can draw from
throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the
durasteel table, Shmi Skywalker's gentle murmur I knew you would
come for me, Anakin smashes it aside.
His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered
heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind.
On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that
smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing
in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within
this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of
space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out
there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear
as a crystal bell.
In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.
Decide.
So he does.
He decides to win.
He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took.
Decision is reality, here: his blade moves simultaneously with his will
and blue fire vaporizes black Corellian nanosilk and disintegrates
flesh and shears bone, and away falls a Sith Lord's lightsaber
hand, trailing smoke that tastes of charred meat and burned hair.
The hand falls with a bar of scarlet blaze still extending from its
spastic death grip, and Anakin's heart sings for the fall of that red
blade.
He reaches out and the Force catches it for him.
And then Anakin takes Dooku's other hand as well.-(RotS Novel)
Once Anakin lets loose he utterly annihilates Dooku. The gap between them has become so large that Anakin can decide the very moment he defeats Dooku. Being able to decide the exact moment of your victory is no different from a one shot. So its clear that Anakin has now reached a level that is far beyond Dooku. There is no evidence that the gap between Yoda and Dooku reached this magnitude between the time of Y:DR and RotS. Now this power increase Anakin has experienced in permanent as it was born out of an epiphany that he can utilize his fear and anger as a weapon. This knowledge doesn't spontaneously go away so there's no reason to assume that the power boost was temporary. So as of the end of the IH fight, Anakin is at the very least =Yoda and far more likely outright more powerful. It is the latter stance that is supported by statements.
Mace Windu, Star Wars Revenge of the Sith adult novelization
"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."
Note:We see here that Mace is referring to applicable power instead of Anakin's potential since he notes that Anakin is growing in power, which would not be referring to potential power since one's latent potential does not grow.
Agen Kolar, Star Wars Revenge of the Sith adult novelization
"And even if the prophecy has been misread. Anakin is the one Jedi we can best hope would survive an encounter with a Sith Lord."
Jacen Solo, Star Wars Legacy of the Force - Bloodlines
"'I’m more powerful than any of you.'
It was a boy's expression of anger, but it was true."
Star Wars The Official Figurine Collection #8
Anakin Skywalker was the most powerful Jedi the galaxy had ever known.
Star Wars Miniatures - Ultimate Missions - Revenge of the Sith
Anakin Skywalker is the most powerful Jedi in over a thousand years . . . This makes Anakin, in effect, a Jedi Master, a rank that Anakin, with his unprecedented power in the Force, feels has been long overdue.
The Making of Star Wars Revenge of the Sith
Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived
Some might argue that Gillard's placement of jedi Anakin as an 8 to Yoda's 9 would override everything I have argued thus far. They'd be wrong. Gillard only ever says that Anakin starts RotS as an 8 and then jumps up to a 9 later on. Gillard never says that Anakin was an 8 for as long as he was a jedi. It's entirely plausible that Anakin starts the IH fight an 8 but jumps up to a 9 as soon as he goes Zonakin. This perfectly reconciles Anakin's supremacy quotes and Gillard's statements. So now we have a clear power scaling for Jedi Anakin and yoda: Post IH Jedi Anakin>/~RotS Yoda>/~Pre IH Jedi Anakin>>RotS Dooku
Anakin's force mastery ~Yoda's
There is a common misconception that Anakin Skywalker's force mastery is horrendously sub par. However we know that Anakin has a mastery of the force rivaling anyone on the council(this includes Yoda)
Obi-Wan, Star Wars Labyrinth of Evil
"Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council. But as Obi-Wan had told him time and again, the essence of being a Jedi didn't hinge on attaining mastery of the Force, but on attaining mastery over oneself."
Now I have established that Jedi Anakin is more powerful than Yoda and has comparable mastery, let us move on to KFV
The Power of KF Vader
At this point Anakin has completely embraced the dark side, to an even greater extent than he did on the IH and has even greater mental clarity than he did on the IH, making far more deadly than he was as a jedi.To further reinforce Vader's superiority over Yoda, We see a source in which Sheev is present, that KFV is said to possess unparalled power in the force.
Darth Vader databank, Star Wars official website
Palpatine elevated himself to the position of Emperor, and dispatched Vader as his ultimate enforcer. With his unparalleled Force abilities, Vader swept through the Jedi Temple.
This shows that Vader at his peak is on a different level compared to Yoda. This is further supported by Nick Gillard's rankings:
"There’s up to eight levels. Yoda is an eight, Mace Windu is an eight, Obi is a seven, but if you miss a level, it’s a bit like taking drugs to get enlightenment.” Anakin is the perfect example of messing with the established system. “I’ve got him down as an eight or nine, which doesn’t really exist,” says Gillard, before explaining that by turning to the Dark Side, Anakin skipped some essential steps. “It’s only a writing tool,” he says, “but it gives you the edge over it just being a fight."
In the context of the 10 tier scale peak Vader would be a 9 bordering 10. Now obviously Vader doesn't operate at this level all the time. He's a 9 that borders 10 when he's at his best. Since the difference in power between levels is massive, Vader bordering tier 10 (since the tournament says to debate characters at their combative peak, we would be debating Vader when he borders tier 10) puts him at a level entirely above RotS Yoda and Sheev, which is supported by the SW data bank quote. In Summary:
1.Jedi Anakin is >Yoda in applicable power
2.Jedi Anakin is ~Yoda in force mastery
3. Anakin achieved greater power once he became Lord Vader
4. KFV is on an entirely different level than the other PT greats when he's operating at his best
Peak KFV>>Jedi Anakin>/~RotS Yoda
A decent enough response I feel. But you don't want me to just steal someone's else post and write it in my own words, as that's a waste of both of our times hence why I never even attempted to do so.
First off, whether you buy it or not there is a strong contrast in @Gᴏᴀᴛ quotes in favor of Anakin as opposed to vice-versa. So we'll get the ones out of the way that KINGOFBLADES missed.
- Anakin:
- Luke Skywalker and The Shadows of Mindor wrote:Even after all these months, she couldn't make herself entirely believe that actual Jedi blood ran in her veins-not only Jedi blood, but the blood of arguably the most powerful Jedi in history. She had never entirely gotten her mind around the truth that her instincts and intuitions and premonitions were much more than psychological phenomena: that they were, really and truly, the whispers of the Force itself. She had sent Han because, deep down, she'd really believed that he'd just run on up to the communications center and check on the real-time subspace status reports coming from Luke's task force, and when he found out that all was well, he'd just run on back and tell her so. With maybe a bit of teasing about some static today on the Feminine Intuition Channel, huh?
Coming to grips with their Jedi heritage must have been easier for Luke; growing up on the Outer Rim, he'd barely even known what a Jedi was. Leia, on the other hand, had been raised in a household that was steeped in reverence for the Jedi Order and everything it had stood for. The man she still thought of as her father-Bail, the Prince Consort-had had an inexhaustible fund of tales of the Jedi, not just from the Clone Wars but from the whole history of the Republic. He had never spoken of any Jedi with less than absolute respect for the way they had devoted their lives wholly to the cause of peace and justice, sacrificing everything in the tragic Clone Wars.
---
"I'm told I favor my mother," Luke said dryly, and for a second Nick thought he was going to smile. But only for a second. "You knew my father in the Clone Wars?"
"Kid, in the Clone Wars, everybody knew him. He was the greatest hero in the galaxy. When he died, it was like the end of the universe." Nick's gut twisted again at the memory. "It bloody well was the end of the Republic."
Luke stopped. He looked like something hurt. "When he... died?"
Nick came to a halt gratefully, bending over with hands on his knees while he tried to catch his breath. "Way I heard it, he was the last Jedi standing in the Temple Massacre-when Vader's Five Hundred First went in and killed all the Padawans."
"What?"
"That's where your father was killed: defending children in the Jedi Temple. He was not only the best of the Jedi, he was the last. Nobody ever told you the story?"
(Credit to ISV on the last one)
I missed some too, but I'm not an Anakin fanatic like some pretend they are, so I'll give myself a pass. I just want you to realize that Anakin has a wealth of quotes in his favor. I'm not sure at what point in time or what ratio you start counting them but they greatly outnumber Yoda's. Had the quotes outnumber Yoda's 10:1 would that count towards some sort of "undeniable proof?" Start counting down from there until you're still impressed by how outnumbered Yoda is.
But are you simply a quote guy? I mean, it seems so by your post but lets another direction with this. Something I haven't seen a KINGOFBLADES bring up before in regards to MUSTAFAR! I will avoid bringing up the Guillardian scale though you can insert it where you see fit (KOB did). There is one obvious place it fits here, but I don't want to tread too far on a familiar path here. If you notice it, just assume it's meant to be there without my words tickling your ear.
The only objective universal constant in Star Wars is yes, The Kenobian Scale. Let's tinker around with that here until it fits.
First off, we have AOTC!Anakin being above AOTC!Kenobi:
(Also note that Anakin helped exhaust Dooku here and then Yoda fought that Dooku)
We then have TCWMovie!Anakin almost matching Dooku (while Kenobi struggles with Ventress):
It's noted that Dooku is impressed by his growth (incase you didn't watch video):
Anakin then does extremely well against Dooku again.
Anakin greatly outdoes S6!Kenobi in a fight again.
Then of course ROTS!Anakin outdoes Kenobi against Dooku again. Then he goes Zonakin and obliterates Dooku. KINGOFBLADES touched upon this more in-depth.
Another Kenobian example is Sai Sircu. The events of the game happen between S1 and S2 of TCW. Here she casually one-shots Kenobi/Fisto while Dooku tanks it:
After she gets a powerup, Anakin/Mace are able to tank her attack and fight her as well:
What this does is it indicates that Anakin's starting point is above Kenobi, and he always kept ahead of Kenobi to a point where he can annihilate people who can beat Kenobi.
Of course, the Anakin who beat Dooku was still under the thrall of The Dragon while Knightfall Vader had "killed" The Dragon and unlocked his proper Darkside mindset. No longer encumbered by restrictions or his emotions this is his perceived peak.
Here is him "unsealing his shielding" in full context before he even killed The Dragon. This full release made Dooku - who you argued was beating Anakin - look like a joke. "All his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame."
- Zonakin:
These quotes are especially important because they allow Anakin access to dormant powers he's been holding back. In AOTC he could briefly tap into powers on par with Yoda, but he lacked control over his own powers. Since we also knew his potential far eclipsed Yoda, this wasn't a case of "potential."
(Credit to Ant)
During Mustafar, The Dragon had come back to life when Anakin started doubting himself and he had sunk his poison in him.
This is important to note because when this happened the other two times in the novel, he could barely walk.
(This scan just to confirm what it wanted to do again)
The second section is the mindset he entered the room to see Sheev and Mace fighting. We'll expand on him still being scared well into the fight and before:
- Anakin's Fear and Condition:
So there are some deep psychological issues that affect his strength and ability to well... function.
So going back to Mustafar! Anakin was poisoned by The Dragon and he never dealt with The Dragon like he did on The Invisible Hand or right before Knightfall. He had already fallen to the Darkside and was still subject to his power, so it wasn't an issue of him overcoming it through the Darkside, but rather overcoming it through getting his emotions in check. He didn't know how to use his anger to his benefit anymore and was clouded by rage to a point where he choked his wife almost to death, and was willing to chase Kenobi to the ends of the Earth in places that were utterly retarded to follow him. Not just jumping over him at the end, but Anakin was trying to fight him while climbing and putting himself within a hair's breadth of the lava constantly. If you contrast this to his prior "unlocks" then this would be like him being fully prepared for a Lorenxam vs him just flailing and panicking during a Lorenxam he never studied for. He wasn't dumber, he just didn't have the answers to things he should have known and tried to fake it as best as he could.
Here is what it says about him before he even kills The Dragon at varying points in the novel but allows him to get his emotions in check:
Contrast those descriptions to what it states about Mustafar.
- Mustafar:
Consumed with Rage
Overwhelmed by Rage
Darth Vader - The Ultimate Guide wrote:The rage that boiled up in his brain threatened to block out his visionThe Rise and Fall of Darth Vader wrote:Despite his powers and years of attunement to Obi-Wan, his rage had blocked his ability to sense his former Master's presence on Mustafar until he saw the Jedi standing in the hatch of Padme's star ship.
And confirmation that the Venom of he "Dragon" was still in his system when he was choking Padme:
IE, the Fear was still very much a part of him when he fought Obi-Wan. He was calling on power, yes, but he couldn't actively channel that into the same specific mindset that allowed him to throttle Dooku and raid the Jedi Temple. The rage was in his head again but he wasn't effectively putting it "out there" where it needs to be. The fear was still eating away at him and the venom was still in his veins. So, it is very possible he was weaker or rather hindered from his full power at the time. There are more in-depth explanations of this to be found I'm sure, but I just want to summarize it for you here.
But what does The Kenobian Scale have to do with this? I'm glad you asked.
The thing with Dooku is that he's had 3 fights with Yoda, and all 3 times Yoda failed to subdue or put him down. He's had 2 fights with Mace Windu (once Kenobi helped Mace) and it ended in a stalemate for the amount of time it lasted. Anakin grew to a point where he could rival Dooku and then grew to a point where he could destroy him.
Then Anakin grew past that.
So Anakin was at a level beyond a level where he destroyed Dooku who could give a sturdy challenge to the other two top Jedi, and could beat Kenobi or gain the upper hand almost every encounter.
So, if Kenobi and Anakin are then equaled at this point in time it:
a) Validates that The Dragon had indeed hindered Anakin's power
Or
b) Kenobi grew in power by a large enough degree that he jumped Dooku in raw power
The first option speaks for itself, but I want to touch upon the implications of the second.
We accept that Anakin at lesser levels was a decent degree above Dooku. If Kenobi was equal to Anakin this would mean that he jumped past Dooku in raw power - who could challenge Yoda and stalemate Mace - and had jumped past Jedi Anakin in raw power as well.
What this means is that even though Anakin was the young Chosen One who had the potential to be the strongest Force user ever, and was growing by leaps in bounds in TCW to a point where he outpaced Kenobi at every turn; that Kenobi eventually surpassed that. That Dooku who had outpaced Kenobi's growth at every turn had been surpassed. That not only did Kenobi surpass Anakin's Jedi growth, but he also kept in lockstep with Anakin having no restrictions on his power and Kenobi grew to a point where he had matched the entirety of Jedi Anakin's growth and Darkside Anakin's growth.
So if we're to believe Anakin wasn't weakened and was indeed KFV+ levels on Mustafar then that would put Kenobi at quite a ways beyond Dooku. Dooku who could routinely challenge the top three Jedi of all time without ever definitely losing. This would show just how much growth Kenobi received throughout the 9 days (iirc) of ROTS, and it shows that he had more in store than what he ever showed previously.
So why would this be a knock on Anakin exactly? If you're going in this direction it doesn't exactly make Kenobi fodder to Yoda. It doesn't prove that Yoda could overpower Kenobi in a power struggle. If anything it should allow Kenobi to repeat this against Yoda as well. If he can do this against someone beyond Dooku, then he can be stubborn enough to match Yoda too.
All this argument does to me is simply place Kenobi closer than you'd like to think he is to Yoda. It doesn't erase Anakin's feats. It doesn't erase Dooku's feats. It builds on them.
But if you need a visible example to understand, have no fret, I got you:
Mustafar!Vader > KFV > Zonakin > Jedi!Anakin ~ Dooku > Kenobi
Mustafar!Vader ~ Kenobi >>> Dooku < Yoda
I used 3 greater than signs there.
Now while this on its own wouldn't be proof that Kenobi is > or ~ to Yoda, it would certainly bring him close enough that it wouldn't necessarily be a knock against Anakin.
If you're going that direction of course.
I don't know if I'm missing options here, but it seems that either of these two options doesn't impede Anakin's relation to Yoda so you can pick whatever option you want, and it's fine by me. Either Anakin was weakened, or Obi-Wan grew far beyond Dooku to a point that he very well might stalemate or overpower Yoda.
So either you bring down Mustafar!Vader or you raise Mustafar!Kenobi and no matter which way you go, it doesn't hinder whatever Anakin's true peak is in relation to Yoda. At least the way I see it. You have other points, but this is a point you brought up in an effort to lower Anakin and as I see it, your biggest point.
I'm just getting word down from the Kenobi brigade that we should pick option 2.
I used KINGOFBLADES' post because it's applicable. You can ignore it as it is a KOB post, and I can't tell you how to read your KOB posts, but it fits in well. I just wanted to present to you the implications of what you're arguing here as I feel that one part you think was just a small section is actually a lot more important than you'd think. Without Kenobi chaining Anakin to a tier, then what does he really have against him from your post? If you're going to go dirty and go Kenobi on me, then we'll use Kenobi.
---
On that note, it's not exactly easy to strip through active barriers either. I'm not sure why you expect Anakin to utterly swallow Kenobi's TK? If you're under the understanding that Anakin couldn't utterly ragdoll Kenobi hiding behind a barrier, then why could he ragdoll Kenobi through his max offensive TK? Think of it this way:
Anakin hits a stationary shield with TK defended by Rush Clovis. Rush then gets into a full
If the stationary shield was hard to move, then shouldn't the full sprint shield be just as hard, if not harder to move with the added momentum?
If this same logic applies to Star Wars, it's not hard to see why Anakin didn't instantly blow through his TK. All Kenobi would have to do in this instance is hold it back enough until it started engulfing itself and then went kablooey, and released all the coalesced energy at once point-blank. If Kenobi is powerful enough to hide behind a barrier from Anakin then he should be powerful enough to stave off TK, theoretically.
Now whether this is true or not, or whether this even matters is beside the point. It's also ignoring other sources that say Kenobi attacked and Anakin blocked iirc, but again, besides the point. Just something to throw in there... just something to Church of Chew on.
---
If you are building this into a "Suited Vader > Anakin" conclusion, then we can answer that when it comes too.
@Decaf_Beverages
- lorenzo.r.2ndLevel Three
Re: Yoda vs. Count Dooku & Darth Vader
January 21st 2020, 3:17 pm
i have a question- did u imply by any chance that kenobi 'getting an amp' and anakin 'being hindered' cannot happen at the same time? just elaborate on this, for me please?
SyndiciateLevel One
Re: Yoda vs. Count Dooku & Darth Vader
January 21st 2020, 3:53 pm
Dooku and Vader.
DarthAnt66Moderator
Re: Yoda vs. Count Dooku & Darth Vader
January 26th 2020, 7:23 pm
@Quorian Debatist: Good post. 
- HellfireUnitLevel Six
Re: Yoda vs. Count Dooku & Darth Vader
January 27th 2020, 5:04 am
@Quorian Debatist I just had the time to read your post, great work. Simply impressive, most impressive. I would love to write a respond to it but I doubt if I can get it done in months.
Master AzrongerModerator
Re: Yoda vs. Count Dooku & Darth Vader
January 27th 2020, 11:44 pm
@Quorian Debatist @isv Would either of you lovely gentlemen happen to know the source of this lovely quote?
_________________
- Master AzrongerModerator
Re: Yoda vs. Count Dooku & Darth Vader
January 27th 2020, 11:47 pm
I appear to have found a source stating the same, but I assume it's not the same source due to the different font:
http://www.rebelscum.com/photo.asp?image=/ROTS/ROTSvadercaseboxbk.jpg
http://www.rebelscum.com/photo.asp?image=/ROTS/ROTSvadercaseboxbk.jpg
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PraxisModerator | Champion of the Light
Re: Yoda vs. Count Dooku & Darth Vader
January 27th 2020, 11:54 pm
- Master AzrongerModerator
Re: Yoda vs. Count Dooku & Darth Vader
January 28th 2020, 12:26 am
Upon further inquiry, it seems every set of the toy line regurgitates the same accolade.
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Shioz
Re: Yoda vs. Count Dooku & Darth Vader
January 28th 2020, 12:35 am
Syndiciate wrote:Dooku and Vader.
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