Darth caedus vs plagueis

So like, just sayin... um well

mace windu karking lurdo

@DC77 (Reborn)

I actually think Caedus wins now but a lot of these arguments are lazy, so I'll respond anyway. I must hurt you, to help you.

Indeed, I agree this arguments weren't the result of a huge work...

Nothing about this feat is combatively quantifiable. Next.

Yes this isn't a combative feat but this show that the gap of power between Luke and Caedus isn't such that Luke can discover Caedus while the latter his hiding in front of him. I am not talking of someone being able to walk next to Luke for a bunch of second and not being detected, I am talking about someone who is just in front of him and isn't saw. 

The fact that he was unable to position his blade correctly in time only proves how much slower he is than Luke, who he reacted to almost instantaneously. I'm not convinced Jacen was at any disadvantage during the opening, and it's your job to prove he is

Well just think a minute, in the description of the fight we have that Luke attack "He just sprang" as a result Jacen "start to spin". The main reason for him to spin is because he wasn't facing Luke. Because of this he cannot know where Luke will strike so he decided to protect the most important part of his body: the head. This is further emphazing by the use of the "But Luke was attacking low" clearly showing that Jacen didn't know where Luke will strike. And despite this he sucess to block Luke blade before being killed "The tip sank a few centimeters, drawing a pained hiss as it touched a kidney, then Jacen's blade made contact and knocked it aside". 
We are far from Luke being way faster than Jacen depite being the one who strike first "Luke didn't give Jacen a chance to surrender". If you add to this that Luke attacked Jacen from behind (the reason why Jacen spinned) we have a clear proof that Jacen was at disadvantage during the start of this fight.

Due to abusing his esoteric pain tolerance, not due to personal power or skill

And? Won't he still have this ability when facing Plagueis? Give me any reason for him to not to use it. If he managed to use it against a way more powerful opponenent than Plagueis why won't he use it  against Plagueis to land a strike?
Fact: he managed to hit Luke.
I fail to understand why you don't judge this strike legit. Care to develop?

By anchoring himself to a nearby Vong trap with the force, not due to his own power or skill. Next.

What? Jacen managed to dodge one of Luke strike despite being just violently hit by Luke ("landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees" and "He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it") and you don't view it as legit because he use the Force. This is ridiculous, in his fight against Plagueis Caedus will be allow to use the Force, so what he did here is completely legit. 
Fact: Caedus used the Force to dodge one of Luke strike. 

Considering how badly affected Luke's connection to the force was in this fight, and Luke's general trend of holding back his whole power I think you'll find it difficult to quantify how good Luke is as of this time, and until you provide evidence, I'm not going to be impressed by Jacen's performance here. 

Care to develop : 
-> what precisely explained that Luke's force connection was hugely reduced (and please this time give a precise quote not just some sentence of your own)
-> why Luke will hold off knowing that : Caedus just killed his wife, Caedus is trying to convince Ben to fall to the darkside by torturing him. In addition to this we have the quote that I have already used explaing that Luke was at the start of this battle in a battle rage.

It seems way more logic with all of this to think that Luke was working at a really good level of power and not just jobbing against his nephew. If you want to prove the opposite bring something concrete to defend your point.

Now you want to know why this is impressive as a performance. I will quickly remind you the scaling of Luke as a lightsaber duelist:
LotF Luke>>>>>DE Luke > DE Sidious >>>RotS Sidious > TPM Sidious. In addition to this we know that Sidious is a really good lightsaber duelist while Plagueis isn't at all. So the simple fact that Caedus is able to block and dodge some strikes of an opponent of this caliber but also to land some hit on him clearly puts him far above Plagueis as a lightsaber duelist.

Jacen was more familiar with the environment than Luke, and it has nothing to do with power, which is what will determine the outcome of this match, given it takes place on neutral ground

It has nothing to do with power but everything with tactical mind. In nearly all of his fight, Caedus use his environement: here against Luke, against Katarn by using the incoming ship, against Inferno Jaina by using the corpse of the mandalorian, against Jaina in his last fight by using her own momentum to push her in the pit. As you can see, the use of the environment as an advantage is one clear method of Caedus. The fact that even during a fight of such intensity he was able to keep seeing his environment and how to use it is a clear proof that against someone like Plagueis he will be able to use it to at his advantage.
Fact: Caedus knows perfectly how to use it environment to have the advantage in a fight.

We have a quote saying Luke's connection to the force was weaker than normal. Next.

Give it and we can see whether or not this apply for this fight. And this did not counter the fact that Luke was in a battle rage.

The text is referencing the matching of the combatants, not the actual combative capability they possess

False. This is a clear proof that Luke cannot deal with Jacen and with one YVH droid. So if you want something precise you have that Luke think that Jacen + 1 YVH droid > Luke ... If you cannot understand this simple thing I cannot help you.

Jacen tried to match his power and failed dramatically, getting completely ragdolled. Why is this impressive? Next.

Have you read the extract? It seems that you are forgetting something. First Luke start to destroy thanks to TK Jacen startfighter: "Luke's StealthX nudged him again from behind-how? Caedus couldn't see. Force push? Something metallic inside the fuselage shrieked. He had a sense of someone rummaging furiously in the drives as if looking for a dropped hydrospanner, throwing fragments into the coils. He's ripping the thing apart" Then Caedus try to counter and yes he understand how powerful can be Luke: "Caedus tried to block Luke in the Force and suddenly got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster" but at the end of the day he managed to keep his startfighter as one despite having been badly hurt "he hit the console at an angle before he could buffer the collision with the Force. Something cracked in his chest. Pain flared, stopping his breathing". 
So we have: Luke try to destroy Caedus startfighter. Did he succeed? No. Fair and simple, Luke wasn't able to destroy Caedus startfighter. Knowing how powerful is Luke at this time with TK (remember the dovin basal feat) the most obvious explanation is that Caedus managed for a time to counter most of Luke power, saving his ship by the occasion. Is this impressive? Yes remember the scaling of Luke at this time: 

• Inferno Luke >> TUF Luke >>> Early NJO Luke >> BFC Luke = cloaks 800 meter long ship, lifts and destroys Vader's fortress
  
• Inferno Luke > UnuThul = combined Force potential of trillions of beings
  
• Inferno Luke >> TUF Luke >>> Early NJO Luke >>> DE Luke >>>>>>>> RotJ Luke = RotJ Vader >> Bringing down a huge cathedral
  

I hope that you get why this is impressive now.

None of this leads to the conclusion you want it to. Next.

Knowing this and viewing the performance of Luke against DE Sidious it is obvious that:

• Inferno Luke >> DE Sidious >> RotJ Sidious >> RotS Sidious >> TPM Sidious > Plagueis.
  

Knowing that Caedus was able to make Luke failed to destroy by TK his ship this clealry proove that Caedus is not in Plagueis ragdoll range. If you think so please provide some argument.

Caedus will be hindered as well, his pain tolerance has defined limitations

Of course Caedus isn't unkillable... But as yourself pointed out Caedus can use his pain that "would have left most humans paralyzed with agony" to amp him. This would let him more than enough time to kill Plagueis.

Oh wait, we're done? Nice

It seems that you miss my last part...

I wrote:At close range, Plagueis will have insane difficulty to stay alive (by using tutaminis or his lightsaber) and attacking Caedus in the same time. In addition, we know that Caedus have some tricks (such as powerful force illusion, poison dart, Aing-Tii flow walking,...) which will help him in this fight, allowing him to take the advantage over Plagueis. 

So what if:

• instead of just trying to illegitimate something legit, instead of just ignoring the huge gap in power between LotF Luke and Plagueis, 
  
• instead of negating the fact that Caedus like to use his environment to gain the edge,
  
• instead of forgetting that Caedus can draw on its pain to increase his speed and force when it advantage you, 
  
• instead of omitting that Plagueis have never shown any great lightsaber demonstration
  
• instead of avoiding the other advantage sthat I gave for Caedus
  

you just try to give a good argument for Plagueis being able to do anything against Caedus.

Hego wins. Without issue

Plagueis ragdolls lol

still caedus this plagueis wanking is hilarious

The lord of hunger wrote:still caedus this plagueis wanking is hilarious

Why? Plagueis has Banite scaling, putting him vastly above feats like Tenebrous' master's poking a hole in the massive nexus the Jedi made.

IG (Exists) wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:still caedus this plagueis wanking is hilarious

Why? Plagueis has Banite scaling, putting him vastly above feats like Tenebrous' master's poking a hole in the massive nexus the Jedi made.

read the post of xolthol he already made a case of caedus winning

Garbage case tbh, I'll address it shortly.

@Xolthol:

Indeed, I agree this arguments weren't the result of a huge work...

Xolthol darling, this wasn't an improvement. Next.

Yes this isn't a combative feat but this show that the gap of power between Luke and Caedus isn't such that Luke can discover Caedus while the latter his hiding in front of him. I am not talking of someone being able to walk next to Luke for a bunch of second and not being detected, I am talking about someone who is just in front of him and isn't saw.

It's not just that its not a combat feat, but also that there's no way to quantify its impressiveness, and retroactively apply that to Jacen's combative capabilities. Next.

Well just think a minute, in the description of the fight we have that Luke attack "He just sprang" as a result Jacen "start to spin". The main reason for him to spin is because he wasn't facing Luke.

Well aren't you captain obvious? Next.

Because of this he cannot know where Luke will strike so he decided to protect the most important part of his body: the head.

I never denied this at all in my rebuttal, you're wasting your time by addressing something I never even argued against, I just don't find it to be any of any particular importance. All Jacen had to do to correct the error in question was flick his blade downwards, I'm not convinced that it's the major disadvantage you make it out to be. The more important factor present in the text is obvious, the speed disparity, which later allows an injured Luke to finish Jacen off in 5 moves, with the only thing ensuring his survival being a nearby Vong trap. Next.

And? Won't he still have this ability when facing Plagueis? Give me any reason for him to not to use it.

I never said he wouldn't. What you've failed to grasp in this little side tangent of yours is that you cited Caedus's performance against Luke as proof of his superiority, which you tied back to Plagueis via a long and convoluted scaling chain (Which we'll get to). I'm elucidating on the fact that Caedus relied entirely on an esoteric ability to score a single hit on Luke and was nigh instantly blitzed and then subsequently put down in 5 moves during the actual skill/power comparison between the two. Can Caedus likewise score a couple hits on Plagueis? Sure. Will they matter? No, there's no evidence supporting that. And it crumples your scaling chain into a ball if Caedus only landed a single hit due to pain tolerance after which he got curbstomped, because that proves that Caedus himself is ultimately not a part of the scaling chain, but that he can tag somebody on it through different techniques not specifically related to power. Moreover, Luke in this duel, as you've been so kind to remind me was bloodlusted, ergo, he's not interested in anything but putting Jacen through as much pain as possible, and doesn't care how many times he gets hit as a result. Plagueis is calculated and subtle, he won't fight Jacen with the same reckless attitude Luke did, and is less likely to fall prey to Jacen's esoteric skill set and tricks. Next.

What? Jacen managed to dodge one of Luke strike despite being just violently hit by Luke ("landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees" and "He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it") and you don't view it as legit because he use the Force. This is ridiculous, in his fight against Plagueis Caedus will be allow to use the Force, so what he did here is completely legit.

And, again, you missed the point. Jacen won't be able to wear Plagueis down by targeting pre-existing injuries and abusing the environment here, and every time he gets his guard bashed he won't be able to anchor himself to something. The feat you're citing is non-existent. Different context, different duel. Next.

-> what precisely explained that Luke's force connection was hugely reduced (and please this time give a precise quote not just some sentence of your own)

Legacy Of The Force: Fury wrote:Yoda had told Luke that electrical shocks, applied at different intensities and at irregular but frequent intervals, would prevent a Jedi from concentrating, from channeling the Force. They could render a Jedi helpless.

But Yoda had never told Luke that emotional shocks could do the same thing.

They could. And just as no amount of self-control would allow a Jedi to ignore the effects of electrical shocks on his body, neither could self-control keep Luke safely out of his memories. Every few moments a memory, freshly applied like a current-bearing wire on his skin, would yank him out of the here and now and propel him into the recent past.

Boarding the Anakin Solo. Finding Jacen torturing—torturing—Luke’s only child, his son Ben. The duel that followed, Luke against the nephew he’d once loved…

Happy? Next.

-> why Luke will hold off knowing that : Caedus just killed his wife, Caedus is trying to convince Ben to fall to the darkside by torturing him. In addition to this we have the quote that I have already used explaing that Luke was at the start of this battle in a battle rage.

We know Luke didn't bring his whole might against his nephew because Jacen himself says so when Luke rapes him with TK during Revelation. Next.

I will quickly remind you the scaling of Luke as a lightsaber duelist:

Irrelevant given not only the stipulations of the fight, but Luke's inability to utilise anywhere close to his full potency. Next.

It has nothing to do with power but everything with tactical mind. In nearly all of his fight, Caedus use his environement: here against Luke, against Katarn by using the incoming ship, against Inferno Jaina by using the corpse of the mandalorian, against Jaina in his last fight by using her own momentum to push her in the pit. As you can see, the use of the environment as an advantage is one clear method of Caedus. The fact that even during a fight of such intensity he was able to keep seeing his environment and how to use it is a clear proof that against someone like Plagueis he will be able to use it to at his advantage.

Jacen's ability to abuse the environment when the fight takes place on neutral ground is irrelevant, as noted in my previous post. Next.

False. This is a clear proof that Luke cannot deal with Jacen and with one YVH droid. So if you want something precise you have that Luke think that Jacen + 1 YVH droid > Luke ... If you cannot understand this simple thing I cannot help you.

You've just reiterated your original claim without addressing my rebuttal. Next.

Have you read the extract?

Yes. The real question is, have you? Next.

So we have: Luke try to destroy Caedus startfighter. Did he succeed? No. Fair and simple, Luke wasn't able to destroy Caedus startfighter. Knowing how powerful is Luke at this time with TK (remember the dovin basal feat) the most obvious explanation is that Caedus managed for a time to counter most of Luke power, saving his ship by the occasion. Is this impressive?

We witnessed Jacen quite clearly get overwhelmed by Luke, the more logical explanation is that Luke released it. Next.

I hope that you get why this is impressive now.

And Jacen failing to block Luke's TK ties into that how exactly? Next.

It seems that you miss my last part...

My mistake:

In addition, we know that Caedus have some tricks (such as powerful force illusion, poison dart, Aing-Tii flow walking,...) which will help him in this fight, allowing him to take the advantage over Plagueis.

There's no basis for Jacen being able to fool Plagueis mid combat, nor is there any evidence poison darts will come in handy, barring a cheap shot against Mara they never have. Next.

you just try to give a good argument for Plagueis being able to do anything against Caedus.

Plagueis's relativity to pre boost Sidious and scaling over the Banites might do it. Next.

Oh nice, we're done, at last. I was getting tired of debunking meaningless drivel. You want some good reasons as to why Jacen beats Plagueis, and why I think he does? Give this a read, you might find it educational.

@BreakOfDawn You're next .

@DC77 (Reborn) Hmm?

Also,

Xolthol darling, this wasn't an improvement. Next.

You cheating slag.

@BreakOfDawn:

Sorry gorgeous, you know my heart belongs with you.



OT-Referring to the Krayt V Outlander thread.

Which one was that?

This one.

Expect a response soon (Max 10 hours).

Take your time. I won't be able to be able to reply for a while, anyway.

@DC77 (Reborn) Well I find your argument for Caedus good but I still think that mine are working to.