Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis

@ILS Great post; I've never thought to use the quote about people having a predetermined location and time of death in a combative context. I've always used it as proof midi-chlorians are sentient in a sense, which fits as they are the interlocutors of the will of the Force, and through that way their awareness is beyond time and space: they grant the user the ability to sense things from the past, in the present, and from the future after all. Plagueis is overriding their wills and supplanting them with his own is therefore a pretty crazy feat - he's mindfucking entities with a cosmic perception of the universe and beating them into submission. But you've taken it a step further by connecting that with the Veruna instance - it's more evidence he can essentially command the midi-chlorians to do practically whatever the Force can tell them to do; his will is analogous with that of the Force and actually more potent because he managed to overpower it in the first place.

Nonetheless, I have some corrections to make and disagreements to voice.

We know that 1. Healing is harder than killing and 2. Using Midichlorian manipulation on yourself is harder than using it on someone else. Which means that Plagueis healing himself with midichlorian manipulation while Sidious was blasting him with lightning, "stopping short of defending himself", he was doing the hardest possible variation of the technique.

Basically, healing yourself > healing others > killing others.

We also know that he can either do this passively, or he can put active effort into accelerating the process.

Yup. And given Plagueis' self-healing was outpacing Sidious' destructive output, we know that Plagueis can kill midi-chlorians faster than Sidious "drawing on the dark side more deeply than he ever had" can roast unprotected flesh. In other words, Plagueis' midi-chlorian manipulation is an instantaneous one-shot if the opponent isn't shielding themselves with a barrier.

-The more you have, the stronger your connection to the Force (typically). At a certain number of midichlorians, you become Force sensitive (IIRC it's 5000). At a certain point, you also die (IIRC it's about 1250 or thereabouts). And I think the average midichlorian count for a human is 2500? Feel free to correct me as the numbers themselves aren't that important. We know that midichlorian testing machines only went up 20,000, and Anakin blew way past any form of conventional measurement, he was basically off the scales (which, him having the potential to succeed The Father, makes a great deal of sense in hindsight). We know that Tenebrous was amazed at the prospect that someone could create a being who would have 12,000 or more midichlorians. All of that is to say that, Yoda and Sidious' midichlorian counts likely fall somewhere between 12-20k. I'm thinking it's much more conservative to say they are closer to 10k than 20k. So, if sheer quantity of midichlorians was the only factor, we could say that we use Plagueis' killing of Veruna to estimate how long he would need to kill someone with 10k+ midichlorians. Veruna would have about 2500 midichlorians roughly, and if we adjust for the fact Plagueis let him die passively and slowly rather than accelerating the process, then he could reduce even someone with 12k+ midichlorians to being very weak, to barely Force sensitive, to non-Force sensitive, to physically decrepit, to dead in a very short amount of time. At least, he could reduce their power at such a rate that they would basically be incapable of competing with him because they would be so weakened, to say nothing of the shock they might experienced at the rapid decline in their abilities.

The number Tenebrous cited was actually 15 000. Furthermore, he clarifies that that number far exceeds his own count, and that a being with more than 15 thousand midi-chlorians per cell would have the highest Force potential on record:

The key, he'd discovered, lay in an obscure legend obliquely referenced in the Journal of the Whills, about a hero fairly typical in most cultures - the sort of promised future savior who appears in the foundational myths of nearly every developed society. What distinguished this particular savior from his run-of-the-mill equivalents was that he, according to four of eleven possible translations, was to be "born of pure Force." After three standard years devoted specifically to exploring all possible permutations of the interpretation, Tenebrous determined that such a birth was indeed possible, at least metaphorically - "born of pure Force" could be read as indicating the creation of a living being through direct manipulation of midi-chlorian processes in an already living being.

And further, as Tenebrous discovered with rising excitement, such a being’s Force potential might be limited not by its creator's own midi-chlorian count, but instead only by its creator's level of discipline and attention to detail. Indeed, his calculations indicated a range potentially far beyond his own. With proper execution, the "savior" might have a midi-chlorian count as high as fifteen thousand!

Perhaps even more.

It might be possible to create a being with the greatest Force potential ever recorded!


I don't know if he's aware of Yoda's midi-chlorian count, but he wouldn't be making such a definitive declaration if he didn't know what he was talking about. Tenebrous is a scientist who clinically and dispassionately analyzes situations, probabilities, and all other kinds of phenomena - note how he explored "all possible permutations" of a single phrase in the Journal of the Whills over the course of three years (perhaps unrelated, but it's stated there he has indeed read the Journal of the Whills, the implications of which I'm unsure as of yet) - so it's more likely than not that he would be quite familiar with midi-chlorian count records opine something about the matter with such certainty. If you recall, the Banite Sith can sense a person's midi-chlorian count just by looking at them without the need for sensory equipment like the Jedi use, and Sidious and Maul used to visit the outskirts of the Jedi Temple disguised as tourists, so it's possible Tenebrous may have gotten a read on the counts of the most prominent Jedi. Speculation, of course, but definitely possible.

I personally think Yoda and Sidious' midi-chlorian count caps out at roughly the fifteen thousand mark based on Tenebrous' comments, but I doubt it's much lower considering that they are the most powerful members of their respective factions in all of galactic history, and a being above 15k would have the highest Force potential ever, so someone must be at that number or approaching it, and I think Yoda and Sidious are the most likely candidates.

-Finally, we know that midichlorians vary in their individual strength and tenacity, and that more Force sensitive individuals, and also individuals with more willpower and mastery, have a better grasp and control over their own body than weaker individuals. And to add to this, we know there is a genetic component to midichlorians in terms of what powers manifest in an individual and with what intensity, but this is also modified by what powers they choose to focus on training, and what powers they neglect training. Point being: Yoda isn't just extremely powerful because of the amount of midichlorians he has. He's extremely powerful because he has an extreme amount of control and mastery over his available power. He may not have the same maniacal pursuit of power and reaching his full potential that a Sith does, but the point remains, Yoda's midichlorians, even on a pound to pound qualitative basis, are likely far more tenacious and resistant to influence than those of your average non-Force sensitive. And Yoda himself, being one of the most powerful and masterful Jedi to have ever existed, will surely have more awareness and control over his own midichlorians and power, and thus ability to resist influence, than a non-Force user.

So, what I think makes the most sense is this: Plagueis would be able to use midichlorian manipulation to some level of success against someone like Yoda. But rather than it being like Force Drain affect where Yoda is fighting a battle of attrition, trying to quickly kill Plagueis as his midichlorians wink out one by one, I think it would be more like a telepathic battle of wills. As in, Plagueis would try to exert influence over Yoda's midichlorians, and Yoda would feel that pressure, as if someone was reaching into his body with an invisible hand and trying to upend his physical being on a fundamental level (which doesn't sound pleasant to me, it sounds horribly unnatural), but Yoda, being more intimately familiar with his own body and power than anyone, would mount an extremely strong defence to that influence. And with Plagueis having to exert active effort and attention to this battle of wills over Yoda's midichlorians, that opens up the possibility for Yoda to fight back and close the distance.

I'm not sold on the connection between an individual's mastery and control of their own power and the control over their midi-chlorians in being who haven't delved into manipulating midi-chlorians directly by hand. Midi-chlorians, by default, execute the will of the Force, not the will of the person whose cells they reside in; it's a far, far different thing to take control and harness the power pouring out of midi-chlorians than to seize command of the midi-chlorians themselves. I therefore don't understand why midi-chlorians would be inherently more tenacious and willful in beings with more mastery of their power.

Yoda is a being who follows the will of the Force to a T. He would never even think of exercising some sort of personal control over his own midi-chlorians and supplant the will of the Force with his own like Plagueis has. If the Muun ever gets a grip of Yoda's midi-chlorians, he would have to overcome only the will of the Force, which he already done on numerous occasions, not Yoda's own will. In other words, Yoda would be dead in a blink. However, I don't think Plagueis can necessarily get a hold of Yoda's midi-chlorians in a fight as the latter would still be coated with a conventional Force defense. Midi-chlorians are still physical organelles after all, so influencing them can be guarded against the same way the rest of the body is protected from the Force attacks of the opponent. It is for this reason why I don't think Plagueis is too broken for versus matchups - well, he still is broken in a sense, considering that if the opponent slips up for in their concentration, it will result in instant death rather than merely pushed against a wall, but so long as one does maintain their composure and Force defense perfectly, Force-users like Yoda, Luke, Krayt, etc. can defeat Plagueis as they are more powerful and in the same league in terms of mastery.

There are also beings who can resist midi-chlorian manipulation directly, such as Valkorion and Sidious. Valkorion because he showed an extremely high level of proficiency in midi-chlorian manipulation himself when he enabled the Outlander to house his spirit - in his own words, he forged the Outlander "into a vessel of supreme power" whereas previously when Valkorion's spirit channeled his power through the Outlander, the latter was hospitalized. This interpretation is solidified if the Outlander is non-Force-sensitive, because Valkorion literally makes them Force-sensitive with a wave of his hand regardless. And Sidious because he is confirmed by quotes to have learned all of Plagueis' knowledge, including midi-chlorian manipulation, and he kept Darth Vader alive with an ability labelled "Power Over Death" in Sith Wars during the trip from Mustafar to the Emperor Palpatine Surgical Reconstruction Center (yes that is its official name), and healing others is noted to be more difficult than healing oneself per Plagueis himself. The telepathic war of wills idea you describe applies in the cases of Plagueis vs. Valkorion and Plagueis vs. Sidious since they have all taken control of their own midi-chlorians and superseded the will of the Force with their own, but not with the likes of Yoda or Luke who follow the will of the Force. I'd say especially Sidious at the time of the Original Trilogy would be successful in thwarting Plagueis' attempts to meddle with his midi-chlorians as he was able to resist the pull of the void in the vacuum of space without an anchor for over a year. It can be interpreted from the text in Darth Plagueis that the Muun did also manage to linger on as a spirit without a tether for a short while after his bodily demise, but that was for minutes at best before he deliquesced into the void. Minutes versus years is a colossal disparity that denotes willpower orders of magnitude greater than Plagueis' on Sidious' part, and by the time of Dark Empire, he could survive disembodiment "with little difficulty" when he put in the same situation as in Return of the Jedi. Now just imagine him focusing all that indescribable willpower and rage in combat and you'd get something like a Force storm capable of shredding the Eclipse and threatening all of space… Anyway, I'm digressing.

All that said... while the potential applications of midichlorian manipulation basically amount to reality warping (control of life and death, engineering the ability to learn and create any new Force power imaginable through sheer will, stripping others of their powers, altering the qualitative properties of existing midichlorians, separating midichlorians from the Force itself essentially making them blind/ostracised from the Force's circle of influence, and so on), it doesn't seem to me, at the moment, like Plagueis reached that level of power yet. For all we know, he could have used his powers to give himself celestial-status and live an as immortal deity ruling over the galaxy, or if not that, at least he could engineer the birth of such a being and attempt to transfer his own essence into theirs at the moment of their birth. But it's clear that he was, in a relatively short amount of time, surpassed by his apprentice following his death - Sidious was the most powerful Sith ever, and that declaration does factor in Plagueis' own use of the Force, and Yoda did nigh-stalemate Sidious in RotS in a contest that saw the use of their full range of powers.

I think it's unfair to use Sidious to curtail Plagueis in that way. Sidious being the most powerful Sith ever doesn't mean he has to be the most masterful or better than everyone at everything. You yourself made the point that Force-users can have specific talents and savant skills, and Tenebrous engineered Plagueis to be preternaturally proficient at manipulating midi-chlorians. Sidious himself mused in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, that he never achieved Plagueis' level with the art. I'd also like to draw your attention to this quote which, I feel, encapsulates what I mean:

She turned her focus back to their surroundings. It still rankled her that she hadn’t noticed the Cthons before they had attacked, and she had vowed to herself not to let something like that happen again. Seeking out life-forms around her with the Force was a task with varying degrees of difficulty. Intelligent, Force-sensitive beings were usually easy to spot, of course, while lower-level forms—insects and animals, for example—did not broadcast nearly as much of a blip on her mental radar. It was true that her mastery of the Force was nowhere near perfect, but that was no excuse for not doing the best she could. Her Twi’lek Master had once explained to her that sensitivity and fine-tuning came with time. “As a Padawan,” he had said, “I could push boulders around with ease, but seeds were next to impossible.”


It's a fact that Sidious has more raw, pure Force strength at his disposal than Plagueis and the discipline to channel it to devastating effect, so in a telekinetic or elemental tug-of-war, he'd win every time. But that doesn't mean he can influence infinitesimal, microscopic organelles as capably as his Master. In addition to Anoon Bondara's case, I'd cite Darth Bane having the power to topple a temple but straining with creating a holocron, and I'm sure plenty of other examples can be found.

With that in mind, I'm curious from where you derive these limitations for Plagueis, if from anywhere besides a faulty comparison with Sheev? I don't recall the book making any mention of what Plagueis cannot do except at the points where he was still developing his powers. He did "master the equally powerful energies of order and disorder, creation and entropy, life and death." He did make the fundamental building blocks of the Living Force completely subservient to him. He did alter the intramural structure of midi-chlorians to strip a Yinchorri of their immunity to Force suggestion back when his understanding and mastery were like those of a child in comparison to his prime decades later. He did all that and then some. I would say the level of "reality-warping" you describe is perfectly within his grasp.

Plagueis takes force, Windu for sabers and all out.

I just want to address the section of the novel where Plagueis is killed by Palpatine, as I think it's be horribly misconstrued.

-Darth Plagueis wrote:And he moved in a blur.
Crackling from his fingertips, a web of blue lightning ground itself on the Muun's breathing device. Plagueis's eyes snapped open, the Force gathering in him like a storm, but he stopped short of defending himself. This being who had survived assassinations and killed countless opponents merely gazed at Sidious, until it struck him that Plagueis was challenging him! Confident that he couldn't be killed, and in denial that he was slowly suffocating, he might have been simply experimenting with himself, actually courting death to put it in its place. Momentarily taken aback, Sidious stood absolutely still. Was Plagueis so self-deluded as to believe that he had achieved immortality?

The question lingered for only a moment, then Sidious unleashed another tangle of lightning, drawing more deeply on the dark side than he ever had.
"Let's go over the second part of the speech, shall we," he said, smoothing his tousled cloak. "You useless old fool."
With a snarl, he threw the cloak back behind his shoulders and leaned toward Plagueis, planting his palms on the low table that was now puddled with spilled wine.
"It was Hego Damask as Darth Plagueis who came to Naboo, determined to suck the planet dry of plasma and set the Trade Federation up as its overseers. It was Hego Damask as Plagueis who then set his sights on a seemingly confused young man and, with meticulous skill, manipulated him into committing patricide, matricide, fratricide. Darth Plagueis who took him as an apprentice, sharing some of his knowledge but withholding his most powerful secrets, denying the apprentice his wishes as a means of controlling him, instilling in him a sense of murderous rage, and turning him to the dark side." Sidious stood to his full height, glaring.
"It was Plagueis who criticized the early efforts of his apprentice, and who once choked him in a demonstration of his superiority.
"Plagueis, who denigrated him in private for hiring an inept assassin to carry out the murder of Senator Kim-and yet who allowed himself to be tricked by the Gran and nearly killed by mercenaries.
"Plagueis, who turned away from the Grand Plan to focus entirely on himself, in an egotistical quest for immortality.
"Plagueis who had the temerity to criticize his apprentice for having inculcated too much pride in the assassin he had trained.
"Plagueis who attempted to turn his equally powerful apprentice into a messenger and mere intermediary.
"And Plagueis who watched in secret while his apprentice tasked their true intermediary to reveal the reborn Sith to the galaxy."
Sidious paused, then, in derision, added, "Plagueis the Wise, who in his time truly was, except at the end, trusting that the Rule of Two had been superseded, and failed to realize that he would not be excused from it. Plagueis the Wise, who forged the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy has ever known, and yet who forgot to leave a place for himself; whose pride never allowed him to question that he would no longer be needed."
Still struggling for breath, Plagueis managed to stand, but only to collapse back onto the couch, knocking a statue from its perch. Sidious moved in, his hands upraised to deliver another bolt, his expression arctic enough to chill the room. A Force storm gathered over the couch, spreading out in concentric rings, to wash over Sidious and hurl objects to all corners. In the center of it, Plagueis's form became anamorphic, then resumed shape as the storm began to wane.
Sidious's eyes bored into the Muun's.
"How often you said that the old order of Bane had ended with the death of your Master. An apprentice no longer needs to be stronger, you told me, merely more clever. The era of keeping score, suspicion, and betrayal was over. Strength is not in the flesh but in the Force."
He laughed. "You lost the game on the very first day you chose to train me to rule by your side-or better still, under your thumb. Teacher, yes, and for that I will be eternally grateful. But Master-never."
Sidious peered at Plagueis through the Force. "Oh, yes, by all means gather your midi-chlorians, Plagueis." He held his thumb and forefinger close together. "Try to keep yourself alive while I choke the life out of you."
Plagueis gulped for air and lifted an arm toward him.
"There's the rub, you see," Sidious said in a philosophical tone. "All the ones you experimented on, killed, and brought back to life... They were little more than toys. Now, though, you get to experience it from their side, and look what you discover: in a body that is being denied air, in which even the Force is failing, your own midi-chlorians can't accomplish what you're asking of them."
Hatred stained Sidious's eyes.
"I could save you, of course. Return you from the brink, as you did Venamis. I could retask your body to repair the damage already done to your lungs, your hearts, your aged brain. But I'll do no such thing. The idea here is not to drag you back at the last moment, but to bring you to death's door and shove you through to the other side."
Sidious sighed. "A tragedy, really, for one so wise. One who could oversee the lives and deaths of all beings, except himself."
The Muun's eyes had begun to bulge; his pale flesh, to turn cyanotic.
"You may be wondering: when did he begin to change?
"The truth is that I haven't changed. As we have clouded the minds of the Jedi, I clouded yours. Never once did I have any intention of sharing power with you. I needed to learn from you; no more, no less. To learn all of your secrets, which I trusted you would eventually reveal. But what made you think that I would need you after that? Vanity, perhaps; your sense of self-importance. You've been nothing more than a pawn in a game played by a genuine Master.
"The Sith'ari."
A cruel laugh escaped him.
"Reflect back on even the past few years-assuming you have the capacity. Yinchorr, Dorvalla, Eriadu, Maul, the Neimoidians, Naboo, an army of clones, the fallen Jedi Dooku... You think these were your ideas, when in fact they were mine, cleverly suggested to you so that you could feed them back to me. You were far too trusting, Plagueis. No true Sith can ever really care about another. This has always been known. There is no way but my way."
Sidious's eyes narrowed. "Are you still with me, Plagueis? Yes, I detect that you are-though barely.
"A few final words, then.
"I could have let you die in the Fobosi district, but I couldn't allow that to happen when there was still so much I didn't know; so many powers that remained just outside my reach. And as it happened, I acted wisely in rescuing you. Otherwise how could I be standing here and you be dying? I actually thought you would die on Sojourn-and you would have if the Hutt hadn't tipped you off to Veruna's scheme.
"And yet that also turned out for the best, for even after all you taught me, I might not have been able to take the final steps to the chancellorship without your help in manipulating the Senate and bringing into play your various and sundry allies. If it's any consolation, I'm being honest when I say that I could not have succeeded without you. But now that we've won the race, I've no need for a co-chancellor. Your presence, much less your unnecessary counsel, would only confuse matters. I have Maul to do what the risk of discovery might not allow me to do, while I execute the rest of the Grand Plan: growing an army, fomenting rebellion and fabricating intergalactic war, corralling the Jedi and catching them unawares...
"Rest easy in your grave, Plagueis. In the end, I will be proclaimed Emperor. The Sith will have had their revenge, and I will rule the galaxy."
Plagueis slid to the floor and rolled facedown. Death rattled his lungs and he died. 

Sidious isn't constantly pouring out lightning here, it's just a few short bursts.

-Darth Plagueis wrote:Crackling from his fingertips, a web of blue lightning ground itself on the Muun's breathing device. Plagueis's eyes snapped open, the Force gathering in him like a storm, but he stopped short of defending himself. This being who had survived assassinations and killed countless opponents merely gazed at Sidious, until it struck him that Plagueis was challenging him! Confident that he couldn't be killed, and in denial that he was slowly suffocating, he might have been simply experimenting with himself, actually courting death to put it in its place. Momentarily taken aback, Sidious stood absolutely still. Was Plagueis so self-deluded as to believe that he had achieved immortality?
The question lingered for only a moment, then Sidious unleashed another tangle of lightning, drawing more deeply on the dark side than he ever had.
"Let's go over the second part of the speech, shall we," he said, smoothing his tousled cloak. "You useless old fool."
With a snarl, he threw the cloak back behind his shoulders and leaned toward Plagueis, planting his palms on the low table that was now puddled with spilled wine. 

Notice above Sidious is standing absolutely still, and it notes that he unleashes another tangle of lightning, meaning that it wasn't continuous. He also takes off his cloak and puts his hands down on the table as well, showing that this burst too ended quickly.

-Darth Plagueis wrote:Still struggling for breath, Plagueis managed to stand, but only to collapse back onto the couch, knocking a statue from its perch. Sidious moved in, his hands upraised to deliver another bolt, his expression arctic enough to chill the room. A Force storm gathered over the couch, spreading out in concentric rings, to wash over Sidious and hurl objects to all corners. In the center of it, Plagueis's form became anamorphic, then resumed shape as the storm began to wane.

Plagueis who has had this whole time to gather his power, all of Sheev's monologue, with his hands on the table, is struggling to get up or even breathe. He's not tanking continuous bursts for a couple minutes, he's taking quick tangles of lightning concentrated on his breathing mask that nearly kill him.

-Darth Plagueis wrote:The question lingered for only a moment, then Sidious unleashed another tangle of lightning, drawing more deeply on the dark side than he ever had.

Yes Sidious may be drawing more deeply on the Darkside than he ever had but consider that he is not only shooting forth force lightning, but also has to keep this use of the Darkside concealed from the Jedi. As they didn't sense anything as it was happening it stands to reason that it must be being actively concealed by the Jedi. Plagueis wouldn't be doing that when he is fighting for survival either, as he didn't care in such a situation earlier on in the book either. 

-Darth Plagueis wrote:Sidious peered at Plagueis through the Force. "Oh, yes, by all means gather your midi-chlorians, Plagueis." He held his thumb and forefinger close together. "Try to keep yourself alive while I choke the life out of you."
Plagueis gulped for air and lifted an arm toward him.
"There's the rub, you see," Sidious said in a philosophical tone. "All the ones you experimented on, killed, and brought back to life... They were little more than toys. Now, though, you get to experience it from their side, and look what you discover: in a body that is being denied air, in which even the Force is failing, your own midi-chlorians can't accomplish what you're asking of them." 

Sidious (while he has to be concealing both of their abilities) is seemingly unaffected by an obvious attempt to stop his force choke, suggesting Sidious is immensely superior to Plagueis.

-Darth Plagueis wrote:Sidious moved to the window, then turned to regard the murder scene. Hego Damask would appear to have died because of a malfunction of the breathing apparatus. He would have the droid alert the medtechs. But no autopsy would be performed, and no inquest would follow. Holos of their appearance at the Galaxies Opera would run on the HoloNet, and pundits would weigh in. Senator Palpatine might garner even greater sympathy; his delight in being elected to the chancellorship diminished by the sudden death of a powerful financial ally. 

Sidious notes that there really isn't any bodily harm to Plagueis, or little enough that he thinks he has appeared to have died due to his mask malfunctioning. 

-Darth Plagueis wrote:Confident that he couldn't be killed, and in denial that he was slowly suffocating, he might have been simply experimenting with himself, actually courting death to put it in its place. Momentarily taken aback, Sidious stood absolutely still. Was Plagueis so self-deluded as to believe that he had achieved immortality?
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"There's the rub, you see," Sidious said in a philosophical tone. "All the ones you experimented on, killed, and brought back to life... They were little more than toys. Now, though, you get to experience it from their side, and look what you discover: in a body that is being denied air, in which even the Force is failing, your own midi-chlorians can't accomplish what you're asking of them." 
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"I could save you, of course. Return you from the brink, as you did Venamis. I could retask your body to repair the damage already done to your lungs, your hearts, your aged brain. But I'll do no such thing. The idea here is not to drag you back at the last moment, but to bring you to death's door and shove you through to the other side."

Sidious also doesn't think Plagueis's Midiclorian manipulation is doing anything, as he doesn't believe that Plagueis can use it to heal himself, even as he was shocking him. If he noticed Plagueis actually accomplishing anything, he would've noted it.

As it stands Plagueis is suffocating and can barely get to his feet after two short bursts of force lightning concentrated on his respirator from a Sidious, who, has to be concealing this force use from the Jedi. Plagueis has Sidious's whole monologue to gather his power being put towards keeping himself alive, and during that time is still dying and unable to get up. Plagueis takes another short burst of lightning, continues to die, and manages to accomplish nothing when he tries to counter Sidious's force choke. Keep in mind Sidious would still have to be concealing this power use from the Jedi. 

I'm just wondering what it is about this passage that makes this feat so impressive, maybe some Happy Christmas author emails would help.

Sam takes this.

windu quite possibly

Plagueis

Plagueis takes this. Vaapad won't work on him considering he can take himself out of his body and puppet it like a marionette as per his duel with Venamis.

Corvinus wrote:Plagueis takes this. Vaapad won't work on him considering he can take himself out of his body and puppet it like a marionette as per his duel with Venamis.

Yet he couldn't even stop himself from suffocating.

Mace doesn't even need Vaapad. He's quite a bit more powerful (a peer of ROTS Sheev) and a lot more skilled in sabers.

BoD (Away) wrote:

Corvinus wrote:Plagueis takes this. Vaapad won't work on him considering he can take himself out of his body and puppet it like a marionette as per his duel with Venamis.

Yet he couldn't even stop himself from suffocating.

Mace doesn't even need Vaapad. He's quite a bit more powerful (a peer of ROTS Sheev) and a lot more skilled in sabers.

Yet Sidious had to get him drunk to even attempt to take him out, and even then had to rely on a broken respirator to help him finish the Muun off.

Mace wasn't a peer in the Force to Sidious. He admits to being overwhelmed by the latter's strength in the Force.

Mace is below Dooku in raw tk output, nevermind Plagueis. BOD just hasn’t read Shatterpoint

Yet Sidious had to get him drunk to even attempt to take him out, and even then had to rely on a broken respirator to help him finish the Muun off.

1) A massively weaker Sheev than the one from ROTS.
2) He was trying to frame the circumstances of Plagueis' death.

Mace wasn't a peer in the Force to Sidious. He admits to being overwhelmed by the latter's strength in the Force.

After a prolonged lightsaber fight in which he counters a blast while standing right next to a window and while outside of Vaapad and distracted, and then while exhausted holds off his rapidly increasing lightning - that pretty quickly overwhelms Vaapad's abilities, I might add - for about 30-40 seconds, maybe even a minute depending. 

Mace is below Dooku in raw tk output, nevermind Plagueis

Which you know as well as I do isn't a thing.

 BOD just hasn’t read Shatterpoint

I have actually, and it takes place shortly after the Battle of Geonosis. In the same novel, Mace telekinetically overpowers a character on a nexus that he claims amps him to Yoda/Anakin levels not once but twice. He then dominates him in TK. While also on said dark side nexus that Mace is constantly fighting the effects of throughout the novel, he also telekinetically slows his and Nick's fall by a pretty huge amount and yanks down trees with the Force.

So what you're saying is that a wounded, pre-prime Mace who dominated a character amped to allegedly near AOTC Yoda levels on a potent dark side nexus < Dooku in TK, despite after this going on to have three years of growth that caused huge growth within him. Interesting argument.

BoD (Away) wrote:

Yet Sidious had to get him drunk to even attempt to take him out, and even then had to rely on a broken respirator to help him finish the Muun off.

1) A massively weaker Sheev than the one from ROTS.
2) He was trying to frame the circumstances of Plagueis' death.

Mace wasn't a peer in the Force to Sidious. He admits to being overwhelmed by the latter's strength in the Force.

After a prolonged lightsaber fight in which he counters a blast while standing right next to a window and while outside of Vaapad and distracted, and then while exhausted holds off his rapidly increasing lightning - that pretty quickly overwhelms Vaapad's abilities, I might add - for about 30-40 seconds, maybe even a minute depending.

You're the one that brought that it  up.

Sidious is in the same situation, yet he still has the strength to overwhelm him. We have two characters in the same fight with one outlasting the other.

You're the one that brought that it  up.

That brought what up?

Sidious is in the same situation, yet he still has the strength to overwhelm him

Sidious was explicitly fuelling himself with his pain and fury:


Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.
"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"
Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him.
-


Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified. He fed the power with his pain.



-


Now Anakin was at Mace's shoulder. Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

. We have two characters in the same fight with one outlasting the other.

You're comparing a massively weaker version of a character (Plagueis Sheev) zapping Plagueis' respirator to fake his death as an accident to a much more powerful version of the same character being unable to overwhelm a tired, bordering on exhausted version of Mace with his lightning for 30-40 seconds while constantly increasing the power of the lightning.

BoD (Away) wrote:

You're the one that brought that it  up.

That brought what up?

Sidious is in the same situation, yet he still has the strength to overwhelm him

Sidious was explicitly fuelling himself with his pain and fury:


Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.
"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"
Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him.
-


Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified. He fed the power with his pain.



-


Now Anakin was at Mace's shoulder. Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

. We have two characters in the same fight with one outlasting the other.

That brought up Sidious killing Plagueis.

So, a Sith fuelled himself with his pain and rage. That's standard fare for a Sith.

The emoji accomplishes what exactly?

That brought up Sidious killing Plagueis.

...Yes, because he's one of the people in the debate and it's a good way to compare. 

So, a Sith fuelled himself with his pain and rage. That's standard fare for a Sith.

...Yes, and Mace can't do the same.

The emoji accomplishes what exactly?

Check the edited version.

BoD (Away) wrote:

That brought up Sidious killing Plagueis.

...Yes, because he's one of the people in the debate and it's a good way to compare. 

So, a Sith fuelled himself with his pain and rage. That's standard fare for a Sith.

...Yes, and Mace can't do the same.

The emoji accomplishes what exactly?

Check the edited version.

I'm not, you are. You made the comparison.

You're making no sense right now.

BoD (Away) wrote:You're making no sense right now.

I originally brought up a feat Plagueis pulled in a lightsaber duel, which was my counter to the Vaapad argument. You tried to mock me with Plagueis dying.

One is relevant, the other isn't.

While ethan makes a good case for Pre boost Sheev being outright more powerful than Plagueis, I think we should also take into consideration Sheev calling Plagueis his equal as he's killing him, Plagueis being drunk, as well as the author of the novel stating Plagueis might find a way to undermine Sheev in a fight, implying Plagueis is the underdog in such a match up. So Plagueis is at best equal to Pre boost Sheev, and at worst, markedly inferior. Either way Mace should win as I've made a case for Mace's peer Dooku being above post boost sheev, let alone pre boost sheev or Plagueis:

The idea of TPM sheev having maxed out his potential is predicated on this quote:

At the quake’s epicenter stood Sidious, one
elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive
translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force
so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into
it, never to return.

However when one looks at the entire passage I think it's blatantly obvious that the sentence(along with the entire passage) is metaphorical and hyperbolic:

A tremor took hold of the planet. Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave,
at once burrowing deep into the world’s core and radiating
through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars
themselves. At the quake’s epicenter stood Sidious, one
elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive
translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force
so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into
it, never to return. But the moment didn’t constitute an
ending so much as a true beginning, long overdue; it was
less a transformation than an intensification—a gravitic
shift.

So I don't really think it's wise to assume Sheev maxed out his potential as of TPM based on what is likely a figurative passage. So with that said, I think Dooku would be the odds on favorite over TPM Sheev as he's likely closer to RotS sheev than TPM sheev is based on his performances against Sheev's peer Yoda

On the matter of MM, I think the probability of a sufficient opening in Windu's force defenses being present for Plagueis to exploit is relatively minute. So any victories Plagueis gets via MM exploitation will be in the tiny minority compared to the number of outcomes where Windu just outclasses Plagueis via superior power and skill.

@Reynard (Ethanion)

Sidious isn't constantly pouring out lightning here, it's just a few short bursts.

Notice above Sidious is standing absolutely still, and it notes that he unleashes another tangle of lightning, meaning that it wasn't continuous. He also takes off his cloak and puts his hands down on the table as well, showing that this burst too ended quickly.

Plagueis who has had this whole time to gather his power, all of Sheev's monologue, with his hands on the table, is struggling to get up or even breathe. He's not tanking continuous bursts for a couple minutes, he's taking quick tangles of lightning concentrated on his breathing mask that nearly kill him.

Not quite, sir. Firstly, I'm not sure what the relevance of noting the transience of Sidious's attacks is. Plagueis still regenerated from the damage caused by the lightning with midi-chlorian manipulation faster than it could kill his unprotected body. That Sidious didn't continue to shoot lightning after utterly failing at accomplishing anything meaningful doesn't refute this fact. And nowhere is it noted his second burst of lightning was aimed at the breathing device - that wouldn't make sense anyway, considering the context:

Crackling from his fingertips, a web of blue lightning ground itself on the Muun’s breathing device. Plagueis’s eyes snapped open, the Force gathering in him like a storm, but he stopped short of defending himself. This being who had survived assassinations and killed countless opponents merely gazed at Sidious, until it struck him that Plagueis was challenging him! Confident that he couldn’t be killed, and in denial that he was slowly suffocating, he might have been simply experimenting with himself, actually courting death to put it in its place. Momentarily taken aback, Sidious stood absolutely still. Was Plagueis so self-deluded as to believe that he had achieved immortality?

The question lingered for only a moment, then Sidious unleashed another tangle of lightning, drawing more deeply on the dark side than he ever had.


Sidious notes how Plagueis is already "suffocating" after the first lightning burst, so by merit of that alone, what would be the point in aiming at an already broken breath mask? Secondly, Sidious makes note that Plagueis is "challenging him" due to being confident in his own invincibility, choosing to forgo a conventional Force defense in favor of "experimenting with himself, actually courting death to put it in its place." Logically, then, Sidious would elect to answer this challenge by firing more lightning - which he did - not at the broken breathing device, but at Plagueis's unprotected body. And as you yourself note:

Sidious notes that there really isn't any bodily harm to Plagueis, or little enough that he thinks he has appeared to have died due to his mask malfunctioning.

Plagueis wasn't harmed at all. The prologue (which chronologically takes place after chapter 30) even states that "Plagueis looked almost as he had when Sidious first met him." So, how could you then claim that the bursts of lightning nearly killed Plagueis, if they did not cause any bodily harm? You contradict yourself in your attempt to disparage Plagueis. In truth, the lightning did no damage at all; it was asphyxiation that did him in.

Yes Sidious may be drawing more deeply on the Darkside than he ever had but consider that he is not only shooting forth force lightning, but also has to keep this use of the Darkside concealed from the Jedi. As they didn't sense anything as it was happening it stands to reason that it must be being actively concealed by the Jedi. Plagueis wouldn't be doing that when he is fighting for survival either, as he didn't care in such a situation earlier on in the book either.

Huh? Plagueis wasn't fighting for survival here as his entire motivation at the beginning was to prove that he had conquered death so he "stopped short of defending himself," and he wasn't ceaselessly enduring the brunt of Sidious's attack (one of your main arguments), and the text notes he was "in denial that he was slowly suffocating" so he wasn't attempting to repair his lungs either. The instance you refer to earlier in the book has circumstances at play not present in the murder scene: Plagueis was in a location unknown to the Jedi, and he there his survival was very much at stake so he certainly wouldn't expend energy on suppressing his dark side aura, which was the opposite of what he believed to be the case when they were in a residence publicly owned and occupied by Senator Palpatine. And even back during the assassination attempt, he still was cognizant of the danger their exposure would pose to the Grand Plan, and sought to depart swiftly.

"Master, we need to leave at once," Sidious said. "What I felt, the Jedi may have felt, and they will come."

"Let them," Plagueis rasped. "Let them inhale the aroma of the dark side."

"This carnage is beyond explanation. We can't be here."

After a moment, Plagueis nodded and summoned a gurgling voice. "Recall the Sun Guard. When they're done here—"


So would Plagueis really be so stupid as to recklessly risk exposing himself and Sidious as dark siders to the Jedi and undo all their plans and hard work? Of course not. If you're going to make the argument that Sidious would have expended energy to concealing the events taking place in the residence, there's no reason to deprive Plagueis of the same handicap when he was also interested in preserving the Sith's secret identities. And even if Sidious really was doing the lion's share of the work, he was still drawing on the dark side more deeply than ever specifically for his Force lightning, so it doesn't take away from that.

Sidious (while he has to be concealing both of their abilities) is seemingly unaffected by an obvious attempt to stop his force choke, suggesting Sidious is immensely superior to Plagueis.

Oh, come on, now. We both know Plagueis was in a terrible condition there. He's so unfocused and weakened from intoxication and suffocation that he can't even stand up without immediately falling back down. And his telekinetic attack he couldn't even focus on the enemy in front of him so the result is a haphazard Force wave in all directions that accomplished nothing. The Force wave in question was so weak that it merely tossed furniture around. We know that Plagueis in peak condition is much more powerful than this as he scales over Darth Bane who collapsed a temple and earlier in the book his Force waves were pulverizing armored humanoids. So this attempt to place Sidious so far above Plagueis comes off as disingenuous to me; Sidious himself attributes Plagueis's failings to his shit condition, not to any deficiency in power level: "in a body that is being denied air, in which even the Force is failing, your own midi-chlorians can’t accomplish what you’re asking of them.” In the same scene he just opined that he and Plagueis were equally powerful.

Still struggling for breath, Plagueis managed to stand, but only to collapse back onto the couch, knocking a statue from its perch. Sidious moved in, his hands upraised to deliver another bolt, his expression arctic enough to chill the room. A Force storm gathered over the couch, spreading out in concentric rings, to wash over Sidious and hurl objects to all corners. In the center of it, Plagueis’s form became anamorphic, then resumed shape as the storm began to wane.

Sidious’s eyes bored into the Muun’s.

“How often you said that the old order of Bane had ended with the death of your Master. An apprentice no longer needs to be stronger, you told me, merely more clever. The era of keeping score, suspicion, and betrayal was over. Strength is not in the flesh but in the Force.”

He laughed. “You lost the game on the very first day you chose to train me to rule by your side—or better still, under your thumb. Teacher, yes, and for that I will be eternally grateful. But Master—never.”

Sidious peered at Plagueis through the Force. “Oh, yes, by all means gather your midi-chlorians, Plagueis.” He held his thumb and forefinger close together. “Try to keep yourself alive while I choke the life out of you.”

Plagueis gulped for air and lifted an arm toward him.

“There’s the rub, you see,” Sidious said in a philosophical tone. “All the ones you experimented on, killed, and brought back to life … They were little more than toys. Now, though, you get to experience it from their side, and look what you discover: in a body that is being denied air, in which even the Force is failing, your own midi-chlorians can’t accomplish what you’re asking of them.”

Sidious also doesn't think Plagueis's Midiclorian manipulation is doing anything, as he doesn't believe that Plagueis can use it to heal himself, even as he was shocking him. If he noticed Plagueis actually accomplishing anything, he would've noted it.

As it stands Plagueis is suffocating and can barely get to his feet after two short bursts of force lightning concentrated on his respirator from a Sidious, who, has to be concealing this force use from the Jedi. Plagueis has Sidious's whole monologue to gather his power being put towards keeping himself alive, and during that time is still dying and unable to get up. Plagueis takes another short burst of lightning, continues to die, and manages to accomplish nothing when he tries to counter Sidious's force choke. Keep in mind Sidious would still have to be concealing this power use from the Jedi.

I'm just wondering what it is about this passage that makes this feat so impressive, maybe some Happy Christmas author emails would help.

So in light of all of the above, this ending polemic appears to be irrelevant and entirely inefficacious. Plagueis's feat stands.