Darth Bane (DoE) Versus Darth Baras (Act 3 Peak)

This fight will take place in the Dark Council Chambers. Darth Bane barges in rather than the Wrath, but this time, Baras still has the power of the Entity at his disposal. Can Bane defeat the invincible, indestructible Sith Lord?

Give reasons for why you believe either side wins.

The Divine Source wrote:Give reasons for why you believe either side wins.

Am waiting.

Bane should win decidedly. Much better duelist and better Force feats as well.

Alright, Az, I’m going to list some key characters and explain how they all fit within the Darth Baras scaling chain. The scaling will follow the primary bottom rung, but I may include secondary rungs as I think of them to fall into place within this hierarchy. Hell, this could ultimately serve as a list for the most powerful characters in TOR. But without further ado...

Lord Fulminiss (Primary Bottom Rung):

First up at bat we have Lord Fulminiss, a Sith Sorcerer introduced during the Hero of Tython’s journey to Voss in which the latter had to stop the former from unleashing planetary armageddon. Fulminiss as described in the SWTOR Codex:

Widely regarded as one of the greatest Sith sorcerers in the Empire, the enigmatic Lord Fulminiss is a master of the dark side’s most arcane and lethal aspects. The grotesque Harrower assassins are his most famous creation, but legend has it he once summoned a raging storm of pure Force energy that disintegrated a rebellious city of natives in the Imperial-conquered Jabiim system. Lord Fulminiss is a respected expert on the topic of mass extermination, and at the Emperor’s request, he has performed extensive research into new ways of eliminating planetary populations. More than one Dark Council member has paid handsomely to obtain a record of Lord Fulminiss’s work for his or her private perusal.

1. Lord Fulminiss is credited as having mastered “the most arcane and lethal aspects” of the dark side, indicating a vast knowledge of the force, specifically as it relates to inflicting death.

2. Fulminiss is believed to be capable of summoning a raging storm of pure Force energy that can disintegrate an entire city.

3. Lord Fulminiss has discovered a multitude of ways of eliminating planetary populations, which as shown through his plan with Voss, likely involve his mastery of the dark side.

The codex establishes that Fulminiss is an absolute master of the dark side with knowledge so extensive that even Dark Council Members pay for his works and the Emperor directly commissions him to conduct research on exterminating planets. Beyond the codex, though, we see Fulminiss’ utter mastery of the force in action on Voss, as he casually drives a group of 4 Sith apprentices insane with essentially a flick of his wrist:

https://youtu.be/u03sF5PATts?t=201

Lord Fulminiss must have done something to destroy their minds. -Hero of Tython

At around the 3:45 mark of the above video, we see a holo recording of what Fulminiss does, casually tearing apart the minds of these sith using a technique from the Voss mystic, Valen-Da, that he perverted to destroy minds instead of heal them. While this may seem tame, keep in mind that even the likes of Darth Zannah in Rule of Two felt a strong dose of exhaustion tearing apart the mind of one non-force sensitive. I can’t find the quote in particular, but I remember it being explicitly mentioned that Zannah could not use the technique more than once because it was too taxing. This could speak to the potency required to generate such incantations and spells, but regardless, Fulminiss measures up pretty nicely with RoT Zannah. Anyways, Valen-Da takes Fulminiss to the Shrine of Healing, where he learns a powerful healing ritual that he similarly perverts to destroy minds instead of heal, thus pushing his madness spell even further:

It’s worse than we thought. Fulminiss used a Sith ritual to drive his apprentices insane. At the shrine, he learned a technique to make it even more powerful.

Fulminiss has limits to his dominating powers, however, as he requires the aid of Sel Makor to unleash his madness ritual across the entire planet of Voss, in which “billions” would “die savage, brutal deaths.” Ultimately, what I find incredible about Fulminiss is that he essentially reverse engineered these arcane, powerful rituals created by the Voss and managed to pervert them into his own dark side techniques, indicating a supreme mastery of the force, (sort of like the ability to create his own powers). We can parse out how this ritual compares to those summoned by Bane and Kaan in PoD.

Darth Baras (Great Galactic War)

The Sith Lord when he was still in his physical prime, Darth Baras is stated to have been a more powerful Sith Lord than Fulminiss during this timeframe:

"Rewards. Power. Sel-Makor offers them to you. Like the one who came before."

"Who are you talking about? Was there someone here before Fulminiss?"

"Decades ago. A Sith. Greater than Fulminiss. Power was given."
Source: The Old Republic

What’s great about this is how Sel-Makor implies Baras was more powerful than Fulminiss prior to the former having the Makor amp bestowed upon him, making the gap even larger. It’s unclear how spectacular this amp is, but given that it was a bargain in exchange for maneuvering Vitiate to Voss, I speculate Baras wouldn’t take such a colossal risk unless the boost in power was well worth the effort. There isn’t much to say about Baras during this timeframe other than briefly stalemating Satele Shan (the fight was too short for either side to show decisive dominance) and showing superiority to Darth Angral, who was offered a position on the Dark Council and was Malgus’ superior in command circa Deceived.

Jedi Knight Xerender (GGW)

Xerender isn’t actually introduced until Act 2 of the Sith Warrior story in SWTOR, but he is introduced as the only individual we know of at this point to have ever defeated Darth Baras in direct combat. Some argue that Xerender’s master (who I will elaborate on shortly) also participated, but I will explain why this likely isn’t the case. Allow me to draw your attention to a set of quotes:

"I'm not here for a reunion, Baras. The last time we met, you were left drained and weaponless. This time you won't be so lucky."
―Xerender (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

Jedi Master Wyellett was one of the great Jedi heroes of the last war. Deeply concerned with the preservation of life and more interested in communing with the Force than in using his power as a weapon, he nonetheless proved himself in combat time and again. When his apprentice Xerender battled Darth Baras, Wyellett joined Xerender and sought to redeem the Sith; failing, Wyellett seized Baras’s lightsaber and chose to use it as his own, a symbol of darkness brought into the light.

"During the war, Xerender was Master Wyellett's Padawan. We battled. Wyellet took my lightsaber and used it from then on."
―Darth Baras (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

1. Xerender tells Darth Baras that the last time they battled, Baras was “drained and weaponless,” and that things would end even worse for Baras were they to fight again.

2. Wyellett encountered Xerender battling Darth Baras and joined seeking to redeem the Sith, (which promptly failed,) and Wyellett kept Baras’s lightsaber.

3. Baras explains that he battled with Xerender (the sentence “we battled” is likely referring to himself and Xerender), and it is again stated that Wyellett took Baras’ lightsaber.

I think these three quotes indicate that Xerender was able to directly contend with Darth Baras, as Xerender muses he left Baras drained and weaponless, and this is at least hinted at being the case given his confidence in being able to defeat Baras again. While quotes stated Wyellett entered the fray, they seem to imply that Xerender was fighting Baras alone before Wyellett even stepped in, and even that was only to redeem him. At the very least, Xerender can directly contend with/match GGW Baras alone, and possibly even defeat him alone depending on how you interpret Wyellett’s intervention.

Master Wyellett (SWTOR):

Master Wyellett as of SWTOR is implied to be a great deal more powerful than his pupil Xerender. After the Emperor’s Wrath beats down Xerender, who at this point has likely progressed significantly since he fought Darth Baras, (there is no explicit evidence of this, but Xerender is a young jedi with high potential, and it has been years since he contended with Baras), Wyellett is still confident that he could defeat the Wrath “quite handily” after his newfound power growth. Speaking of which…

The Imperial starship that was transporting Wyellett was destroyed in the Battle of Hoth, and Master Wyellett has been believed dead all these years. In fact, Wyellett has been in a trance beneath the rubble of the fallen ship, psychically trying to reach out to his former pupil. Now, Wyellett has transcended the concerns of this galaxy and his powers are more realized than ever before. -SWTOR Codex

Xerender is young and driven, yet he has only begun to grasp the ways of the force. In truth, I was the same way until being buried on Hoth. Here, I communed with the force to the exclusion of all else. -Master Wyellett (SWTOR)

1. Wyellett has been solely communing with the force in a psychic trance for years, realizing his powers to a greater extent than ever before.

2. Wyellett views his current mastery of the force as being vastly greater than it was prior to being buried on Hoth (as well as Xerender).

So at this point, we have Wyellett being placed far above Darth Baras as of when he battled Xerender, who in turn is far more powerful than Lord Fulminiss.

Darth Baras (Act 3 Peak):

I’m not going to make a chain for the Wrath since it is brief in this particular case, but Act 2 Wrath defeats transcended!Wyellett after killing Xerender and grows much more powerful throughout the rest of Act 2 and all of Act 3. I can’t find the quote at the moment, but the Wrath muses at the start of Act 3 that Darth Ekkage was the toughest foe he had ever faced up until that point, which places her above Wyellett as well. However, by the end of Act 3, the Wrath learns from Darth Vowrawn that Darth Baras has been feeding on an Ancient Sith Entity to grant him both power and unparalleled farsight:

In a secret lair on this planet, Baras has bound and indentured an Ancient Sith Spirit. He feeds off this spirit’s power, stealing all of her visions of the future. Everything he has built has come from her insights.

Indeed, Vowrawn estimates that Baras was unbeatablefor the Wrath until he cut the Entity from Baras, and even after doing so Vowrawn states, “Even now, Baras is near-indestructible." The Wrath does manage to defeat Baras on Korriban, but only after a “fierce” duel, and only by being cut off from his ultimate power source.

Conclusion (So Far):

Darth Baras (Act 3 Peak) > Emperor’s Wrath (Act 3 Peak) > Darth Baras (End of Act 3) > Darth Ekkage > Emperor’s Wrath (End of Act 2) > Master Wyellett (SWTOR) >> Master Wyellett (GGW) >/>> Jedi Knight Xerender (GGW) >/~ Darth Baras (GGW) >> Lord Fulminiss ~ mastery of the most arcane and lethal aspects of the dark side, possibly disintegrating a city with pure force energy, reverse-engineering arcane Voss force techniques to create a planetary madness spell, casually tearing apart the minds of sith apprentices and Voss Mystics, etc.

I think it’s also important to note here that there are likely many other heavyweights in SWTOR that Baras can scale above as a result of this chain, but all in all, Baras is an absolute monster.

@The Divine Source Excellent post. It perfectly show how powerful is Baras.

@The Divine Source

1. Lord Fulminiss is credited as having mastered “the most arcane and lethal aspects” of the dark side, indicating a vast knowledge of the force, specifically as it relates to inflicting death.

Impressive, but hardly to be taken as an indicator of combative power. For if Fulminiss truly had mastery of "the dark side's most arcane and lethal aspects" in a combative sense, he would be up there with Vitiate and firmly out of Baras' league, making his inclusion in the chain pointless. You can either view the accolade as hyperbole, or as I see it, it speaks to his credit as a top-tier ritualist - a non-combative Vul Isen-type who specializes specifically in genocide. It would go along with his description as a sorcerer whose most famed accomplishment is the creation of Sithspawn assassins - a non-combative showing. Furthermore, he is noted to be a pioneer of "new ways" of planetary extermination, indicating something diverging from convention. And lastly, you extol the fact that his work has been paid for by Dark Council members and that he's even given orders directly by the Emperor himself, but that raises the question: if these are indicators of his personal potency, why is he only a Lord and not sitting on the Dark Council himself? And why would a Dark Council member be willing to pay for a record of someone so low in the Sith hierarchy flexing his power when it's objectively far lesser than theirs? Again, Fulminiss being primarily a non-combatant whose feats are rituals not indicative of his personal strength makes much more sense given what's said about him.

2. Fulminiss is believed to be capable of summoning a raging storm of pure Force energy that can disintegrate an entire city.

The incident is cited in the codex as a "legend" which mitigates its value. Rumors about scary Sith Lords are prone to embellishment, especially in times of war and tense ceasefire when propaganda is of prime import. For example, what if I told you Jabiim - the planet where Fulminiss is alleged to have conducted his feat - is home to ceaseless rain and atmospheric electrical storms not unlike Dromund Kaas?





Would it be unreasonable to infer that Fulminiss somehow harnessed the volatile conditions of Jabiim to destroy the city instead of personally doing it with Force lightning or some other conventional power, and the deed was simply distorted and exaggerated by word of mouth over time, thus birthing the legend? I don't think so. It would be consistent with everything else told about the guy.

3. Lord Fulminiss has discovered a multitude of ways of eliminating planetary populations, which as shown through his plan with Voss, likely involve his mastery of the dark side.

Involve it in what capacity? You yourself admit he required the aid of Sel-Makor to infect the whole planet, and his ritual is described as a "plague" which gives the impression of a chain reaction and lends further credence to the idea it wouldn't be done through his own power.

While this may seem tame, keep in mind that even the likes of Darth Zannah in Rule of Two felt a strong dose of exhaustion tearing apart the mind of one non-force sensitive. I can’t find the quote in particular, but I remember it being explicitly mentioned that Zannah could not use the technique more than once because it was too taxing. This could speak to the potency required to generate such incantations and spells, but regardless, Fulminiss measures up pretty nicely with RoT Zannah.

Citation needed. Not that I think you're lying or anything, but I want proof of such a bold claim.

We can parse out how this ritual compares to those summoned by Bane and Kaan in PoD.

I don't think any of these rituals are windows into their personal power in the Force, so I don't see the need, but if you disagree, then by all means make the comparison.

The Sith Lord when he was still in his physical prime, Darth Baras is stated to have been a more powerful Sith Lord than Fulminiss during this timeframe:

Hold on, where's it said that's Baras he's referring to? Again, I doubt you're trying to deceive me, and forgive my ignorance, but I'd like some confirmation as I've forgotten much of the Sith Warrior storyline.

Even were I to grant you that Sel-Makor is talking about Baras and that he is indeed greater than Fulminiss, that still begs the question: by how much? Ten times greater? Two times? 1.01? Makor's line leaves it unclear.

Xerender isn’t actually introduced until Act 2 of the Sith Warrior story in SWTOR, but he is introduced as the only individual we know of at this point to have ever defeated Darth Baras in direct combat. Some argue that Xerender’s master (who I will elaborate on shortly) also participated, but I will explain why this likely isn’t the case. Allow me to draw your attention to a set of quotes:

I'm sorry, but these quotes don't convince me at all. In the first one, Xerender says the last time they "met," which, when Wyellett's involvement is factored in, doesn't necessarily imply he was the one who defeated Baras. The second and third are likewise too vague: all we know is that Xerender and Baras were battling each other, and Wyellett joined his apprentice and attempted to convert Baras to the light. It's possible he intervened when Baras had already been brought low by Xerender and his only involvement was the redemption attempt, but it's also equally possible Wyellett perceived his apprentice was losing to Baras and came to his aid, turning the tide of the battle. At most I'll grant you that Xerender can compete with Baras without getting instantly stomped, but based on that you can't conclusively peg him above even Fulminiss since the degree of Baras' superiority to Fulminiss is unknown. It could be that Xerender has 150% of Baras' power and Fulminiss has 50%, or that Xerender has 75% of Baras' power and Fulminiss has 99%. Regardless, the onus is on you to prove Xerender is "far more powerful" than Fulminiss, which I'm not convinced of.

2. Wyellett views his current mastery of the force as being vastly greater than it was prior to being buried on Hoth (as well as Xerender).

Neither of the quotes prove "vast" growth.

I’m not going to make a chain for the Wrath since it is brief in this particular case, but Act 2 Wrath defeats transcended!Wyellett after killing Xerender and grows much more powerful throughout the rest of Act 2 and all of Act 3.

Based on what does the Wrath grow "much more powerful"?

The rest of your chain seems solid, but it needs a much, much better foundation. What you've proven so far is that Entity Baras (>)> The Emperor's Wrath > Normal Act III Baras ~ Ekkage > Wyellett > Xerender ~ GGW Baras > Fulminiss = mindraping a few fodder Sith apprentices. Since Xerender could be even weaker than Fulminiss, Wyellett's superiority over him doesn't automatically translate to superiority over Fulminiss. Your scale could potentially be even this small: Entity Baras (>)> The Emperor's Wrath > Normal Act III Baras ~ Ekkage > Wyellett = Fulminiss = mindraping a few fodder Sith apprentices. After Wyellett there are only two links in the chain (Ekkage's relation to normal Baras is unknown, so I don't factor her in) before Entity Baras, neither of which are stomp-tier gaps, with only the chasm between Entity Baras and the Wrath being implied to be sizeable. Honestly, the best you can squeeze out of this is that Entity Baras could potentially one-shot someone capable of mindraping a few featless Sith - hardly Darth Bane-level. You mentioned some other figures Baras could be scaled off of like Angral and Malgus, so perhaps you can cook up something more interesting with them, but right now I wouldn't bet on Baras winning this fight, at all.

Baras.

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote:Baras.

Why?

Damn it Skillz, that's not how the chain works, or at least, it's missing half of it.

Baras.

Bumping this. I want to see a more convincing defense for Baras.

@Azronger I'm pretty busy IRL and already need to make my case for my SS and for the top50 tournament. But after this I can try to made a case for Baras.

I'd work on a case if I wasn't lazy. I'll just leave it to Xolthol.

I too would work on a case if I wasn’t lazy. I’ll leave it to xolthol as well.

I know just the case that would show how Baras ragdolls Bane.... a bit busy though. Xolthol’s got this

I was actually about to chime in for Baras but once I realised I'd be better off killing myself I decided to leave this in Xothol's hands.

Oi, ah'd would work on me case for Baras I would if me werent so plumdicking lazy. Ah'll leave it in da hands of me ol' mate Xolthol I will I will.

Lmao.

HP acting as if he's not triggered.

OT-Bane.

Bane.

Baras.

I'll still back Bane. The Baras hype collapsed like a house of cards.

Standard rules

Bane