Darth Vader versus Revan

Not necessarily, I mean Nyriss is able to easily ragdoll Meetra in sabers and force, and can oneshot her and Scourge. Meetra gets some nice scaling that elevates her to the level of Vader.

@BreakofDawn 
SK was stated to have been more tired than he had ever been before. I find it extremely doubtful that he would have recovered to any meaningful degree had he been meditating the whole time, let alone fighting like he was. 

The Ben quote arose out of the need to explain why Vader didn't use force powers on Kenobi. This need didn't go away so there's no reason to think they disregarded the scale. If they had formulated new power scaling we almost certainly would've been told. So the quote stands as valid.

SK was stated to have been more tired than he had ever been before. I find it extremely doubtful that he would have recovered to any meaningful degree had he been meditating the whole time, let alone fighting like he was. 

Aside from his fatigue never being brought up again afterwards (which, if it were key to the battle, it would have been), SK's strength was noted to have been returning before he'd even finished the battle. He then had about a minute or two to regain this strength by just standing in one place and thinking, then another few minutes during the opening stages of his first fight with Vader. We have no idea how "exhausted" SK actually was. He wasn't for example about to black out, only shaking from exertion which quickly faded. 

The Ben quote arose out of the need to explain why Vader didn't use force powers on Kenobi. This need didn't go away so there's no reason to think they disregarded the scale. If they had formulated new power scaling we almost certainly would've been told. So the quote stands as valid.

So Ben can break Vader's defences in the same way Vader could break Luke's, in which case this begs the question: why didn't he? It's purely meant as an insider piece of information that was meant to be discussed, it's never confirmed if this is the official stance they took or whether they just tabled it until something like it came up (which it didn't).

@BreakofDawn

Aside from his fatigue never being brought up again afterwards (which, if it were key to the battle, it would have been), SK's strength was noted to have been returning before he'd even finished the battle.

Why should SK's fatigue be brought up again? What does the writer actually prove from repeatedly mentioning it? For example, in Ben Kenobi's fight with Hett over a dozen reasons for why Hett is able to compete are brought up (Ben's age, his lack of practice, etc), yet only one of those is actually mentioned again (the environment). There is absolutely no reason for SK's exhaustion to be dwelled upon, and the argument that it wasn't mentioned again, so therefore wasn't there is a really poor attempt at dismissing statements within the novel.

As for the latter part, quote?

He then had about a minute or two to regain this strength by just standing in one place and thinking, then another few minutes during the opening stages of his first fight with Vader.

The first part isn't stated anywhere within the novel and is you just speculating about how long SK was meditating for. We actually have no idea how long he was "just standing in one place and thinking" for.

As for the second part, how is SK going to recover Force Reserves when he's using them up while fighting...?

We have no idea how "exhausted" SK actually was. He wasn't for example about to black out, only shaking from exertion which quickly faded.

He was more exhausted than he was when he was on the verge of death.

@BreakofDawn
I'm gonna focus on the Ben vs Vader since this is where Vader's ceiling is. Though it seems @NotAA3 has the SK argument covered.

Vader throwing objects at Luke is not equivalent to breaking his force barrier. @NotAA3 made a good rebuttal to what you're arguing rn in the thread asking how much damage Dooku's lightning would do to Vader. Which you never responded to.

KingofBlades wrote:Your first and third examples are opinions.

I don't think opinions can be dismissed automatically just because they're opinions. We have three separate characters, two of which are Jedi and one of which has a decent level of credibility, who directly witness Vader's power. Is Vader just TP'ing them or something?

Your second source doesn't mean much in terms of how combatively powerful Vader is considering a vastly pre prime Kenobi was able to move faster than any jedi in history. So these aren't nearly as solid as my scaling.

Which Kenobi feat are you talking about? Anyway, we can come up with an analogous example for every category of feat and conclude that every kind of feat is meaningless. E.g. Desean beat Luke, therefore beating someone in a fight isn't very combatively meaningful? Vader does the speed feat in combat.

Do you think Vader just randomly had a moment of oneness?

Your fourth example is somewhat impressive but what makes Kota more impressive than the collective power of the three jedi Kreia one shotted(or even one of them for that matter)?

That was more about scaling Vader massively over early-game Galen Marek, who certainly has more impressive feats than the three Jedi Masters (and early-career Grievous has similar feats to Traya in that category).

Redirecting a falling ISD with the force of gravity helping you isn't all that impressive. Nihilus raised the Ravager out of Malachor and he was working against the force of gravity.

As we know, it's really dubious as to whether Nihilus actually raised the Ravager with TK, given that some sources suggest the Ravager was already in orbit around Malachor. I also don't see any scaling between Nihilus and Revan.

Or how Exar Kun lifted a derriphan class battle ship the same way Nihlus did the ravager. While this ship is much smaller than an ISD it should be noted that the amount of force required to lift something is enormously larger than the force required to pull something. When you bring up how gravity is helping to reduce the force requirement you could make a good case that Exar Kun's feat is actually greater than Marek's. Revan Reborn is ridiculously more powerful than this version of Kun so he should be able to replicate the Vader tier feat with ease.

We also don't know whether Exar Kun lifted the battle ship with TK (why would he?), and if he did how long it took him. So ultimately I actually don't see many environmental TK feats on the tier of Galen Marek redirecting the ISD that would scale below Revan.

Your 5th point once again fails to prove much of anything. SK was ridiculously exhausted in this fight so Vader sharing any semblance of comparability with this version of SK is actually an anti feat for Vader. So Vader doesn't have parity with the SK who powered up the cannon.

So it looks like this point has already gone back and forth, but to add a few things:

• Vader had planned the fight out to some degree (at the very least that it would go outside) as a test for the Dark Apprentice.
  
• In the game, Vader is actively goading you to try to use your rage and strike him down, and when you're deciding whether to strike him down he encourages you to do so.
  
• If you choose the dark side ending and the Dark Apprentice kills you, Vader stands up nonchalantly as if he wasn't injured at all.
  

And if Starkiller were so exhausted, why did he take the initiative and run up to Vader? Why did Vader stand back and wait for him to attack? 

Your 6th point is overridden by a G canon statement placing Vader below solidly below Ben Kenobi in force power(who doesn't experience any noticeable growth in his exile)

You mean the early ESB draft musings? That's hardly reflective of the final product, nor can you scale Ben Kenobi to pre-Mustafar Kenobi in any meaningful way.

It's confirmed Kun did lift the cruiser in same quote that confirms Palps lifted the Lusankya IIRC

Greysentinel365 wrote:It's confirmed Kun did lift the cruiser in same quote that confirms Palps lifted the Lusankya IIRC

In an author's response to a facebook message/email or something. If you take that as authoritative, then sure.

Why should SK's fatigue be brought up again? What does the writer actually prove from repeatedly mentioning it? For example, in Ben Kenobi's fight with Hett over a dozen reasons for why Hett is able to compete are brought up (Ben's age, his lack of practice, etc), yet only one of those is actually mentioned again (the environment). There is absolutely no reason for SK's exhaustion to be dwelled upon, and the argument that it wasn't mentioned again, so therefore wasn't there is a really poor attempt at dismissing statements within the novel.

Right, and in the fight with Ben was Ben noted to be learning to compensate on the Tatooine sand, or that he was shaking off the rust, or that the Force was helping him overcome the age disparity? Because it was explicitly stated that SK was starting to regain his strength as soon as the fight with the clones ended. 

As for the latter part, quote?

The echoes faded, and he felt a peculiar kind of quiet descend. The air was misted red, and every surface was slick with blood. He tasted it on his tongue and smelled it in his nose. His blood. A veritable ocean of it. He maintained a defensive pose, breathing rhythmically and deeply, regaining his strength. The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being. He felt simultaneously cleansed and poisoned.

Nothing moved. Slowly, incredulously, he began to believe that it was over. They were all dead. He had destroyed every last one of them. He was the only one left—of the many Darth Vader had created to do his bidding.

“Why me?” he asked the silent cloning tower.

“Search your feelings,” Vader said, stepping into view at the very top of the tower, lightsaber held tightly in his right hand. “The answer lies within you.” Starkiller stared up at his former Master. What did he have that none of the other clones did? He remembered: “How long this time?” “Thirteen days. Impressive.” And he remembered: “The Force gives me all I need.”
“The Force?”
“The dark side, I mean.”
Slowly a dark understanding began to form. All the duels, all the tests, all the torturous mind games, had been to ensure his survival against every opponent—bar one. His Master. In a sense, they were still playing out the first time they had faced each other in combat. 

The first part isn't stated anywhere within the novel and is you just speculating about how long SK was meditating for. We actually have no idea how long he was "just standing in one place and thinking" for.

So...you think SK took some deep breaths, stayed in a defensive pose, took note of the blood that covered every inch of the platform, slowly realised all of the clones were dead, shared a brief conversation with Vader, had a moment of realisation where he reflected on everything Vader had done with his training up until that point, then jump to the very top of a cloning tower platform by platform (which I've attached an image of below for a basic reference to how big those are)...all in less than a minute? In which case, I assume you also think that the first fight between SK and Vader lasted less than a minute then since it spanned about the same amount of pages (3 1/2 vs 4)? 



And as for your point about how we have no idea how long he was regaining his strength for, we also don't know how fast his strength was returning. Per your argument, there's no reason why his power couldn't have regenerated quickly as soon as the battle had ended and he had a minute or two to catch his breath and prepare himself, especially since he was in a completely focused mindset that can and has been shown to have an impact on your abilities during a fight. 

As for the second part, how is SK going to recover Force Reserves when he's using them up while fighting...?

Poor wording on my part. SK was completely blocking out any distractions and focusing all of his power and abilities on Vader. Not to mention Vader was, per the text, fighting cautiously and avoiding going on an all-out offensive, which also would give SK a bit of time to recover even more energy. 

He was more exhausted than he was when he was on the verge of death.

I...don't think that was meant literally. If you're even more exhausted than you were when you were on the verge of death, then you would for all intents and purposes be either A) passing out, B) having blurred vision or struggling to stand, or C) dead. His exhaustion was conveyed as his muscles shaking, which speaking from personal experience doesn't mean you're anywhere near death, only that you've exerted yourself and need to stop and take a break (which Starkiller did).

Vader throwing objects at Luke is not equivalent to breaking his force barrier. @NotAA3 made a good rebuttal to what you're arguing rn in the thread asking how much damage Dooku's lightning would do to Vader. Which you never responded to.

@KingofBlades Me not replying might have something to do with the fact that I have very little time to even write a detailed rebuttal on this site anymore, especially since I'm trying to sort out accomodation problems for uni, working, looking for help with elements of the house, and writing my own works. Replying to points is fairly far down in my list of priorities right now. I even said in that thread that I'd get back to it, lmao.

@BreakofDawn the point of me bringing it up was to point out there's a perfectly good rebuttal to the argument you continue to use and that it would make sense to respond to the post instead of just continuing to post the same argument.

@The Ellimist will try to respond later today. If not tomorrow.

Which I will get to when I actually have the time and ability to get access to my sources again.

IdrisianGraecus wrote:Not necessarily, I mean Nyriss is able to easily ragdoll Meetra in sabers and force, and can oneshot her and Scourge. Meetra gets some nice scaling that elevates her to the level of Vader.

Literally nothing but the last sentence here is true.

Tell me where I’m wrong. She literally gets oneshotted, I’ll grant you the nexus, fine, but we don’t know how powerful a non nexus hindered Meetra is as of the novel (assuming that she improved).

1.Meetra is specifically stated to 'hold her own' in the duel and 'absorbed most' of Nyriss' Force lightning with an unprepared, last-second Force barrier.

2.This is on a vastly more potent version of the same nexus that could hinder Grand Master Luke Skywalker's reflexes. On-top of that, the most potent dark side nexus in the entire mythos; Vitiate, is there too.

3.Meetra is in a state of recovery mere days after dealing with psychological damage that was two entire magnitudes worse than the psychological damage inflicted upon her by the battle of Malachor V at the end of the Mandalorian Wars, which not only lasted decades but was described as 'a planet's worth of pain' and to have left her 'a shell' where people were mind-boggled that she could even walk and live with herself. Overcoming this was directly attributed to be the reason she could find the strength to defeat Traya and the Sith.

So she's almost undoubtedly < Malachor V!Exile at this point.

Which is why most people hate Revan Novel. Exile was completely wasted and butchered. Also Surik has never been impressive and was about to get butchered by even Vrook Lamar.

I'm not interested in debating trolls.

Was not debating with you, wanker.

AP logic is still sound I see:

"HE DISAGREES WITH ME. HOW COULD THIS BE? MAYBE IT'S BECAUSE HE HAS A DIFFERENT OPINION? OR MAYBE IT'S BECAUSE HE'S A TROLL? THAT LAST ONE SEEMS MORE LIKELY TBH"

^ give that man a Red Star

@The Ellimist 

I don't think opinions can be dismissed automatically just because they're opinions. We have three separate characters, two of which are Jedi and one of which has a decent level of credibility, who directly witness Vader's power. Is Vader just TP'ing them or something?

Well you're assuming Jax has felt the full power of the PT titans which is needed for any comparison to Vader to be relevant Which may not be true. Same goes for the Ferus quote. You're assuming Ferus has seen the full speed of the other PT top tiers, which may or not be true. So these opinions cannot be used to define Vader's power in any definitive manner. I haven't read the book where Mace and Vastor fight, but from what I've gathered in other debates, Mace was fatigued and pre prime. So Vader being above a Kar Vastor who failed to defeat a tired pre prime Windu doesn't prove Vader is even above RotS Kenobi.

That was more about scaling Vader massively over early-game Galen Marek, who certainly has more impressive feats than the three Jedi Masters (and early-career Grievous has similar feats to Traya in that category).

While the three masters don't have collective feats on the level of Marek, that still doesn't mean we can't scale Revan  above Marek via other means. We get a better approximation of Galen Marek's power when you look at the upper limits of his power like the ISD feat. Which is a feat that is debatable on par with a vastly pre prime Exar Kun. Which is stated to be a TK feat per the author. And I see no reason not to accept an author's email if its only meant to clear up ambiguities in his own writing. So we have Galen Marek's best TK feat, one which Vader either equals or is slightly above via scaling, being on par with a feat accompished by a pre prime Exar Kun, who Revan is ridiculously more powerful than. 
So to make a rough scaling chain we have Revan Reborn>KotOR Revan>>SF Malak>Peak Exar Kun>>>lifting a derriphan class battle cruiser~guiding a falling ISD

So it looks like this point has already gone back and forth, but to add a few things

• Vader had planned the fight out to some degree (at the very least that it would go outside) as a test for the Dark Apprentice.
  
  
  
• In the game, Vader is actively goading you to try to use your rage and strike him down, and when you're deciding whether to strike him down he encourages you to do so.
  
  
  
• If you choose the dark side ending and the Dark Apprentice kills you, Vader stands up nonchalantly as if he wasn't injured at all.
  
  
  

And if Starkiller were so exhausted, why did he take the initiative and run up to Vader? Why did Vader stand back and wait for him to attack? 

Even if Vader were above this version of SK, this still doesn't mean he scales above the one that destroyed the salvation since the SK Vader faced was ridiculously fatigued compared to the one that destroyed the Salvation. As to your question, well considering the fact that SK was attempting to rescue Juno from Vader, it would make sense for SK to attack Vader first since he is the one that has to take Juno from Vader. He won't accomplish his goal waiting around.

You mean the early ESB draft musings? That's hardly reflective of the final product, nor can you scale Ben Kenobi to pre-Mustafar Kenobi in any meaningful way.

The power scaling arose out of a need to rationalize why Vader didn't use force attacks against Ben. This need didn't go away so there's no reason to think they discarded the scaling outright. If they had developed new power scaling we almost certainly would have been told. So there's no reason to think the quote doesn't reflect Lucas's view of the matter and that we should discard it. Even if you wanna argue that the degree of Ben's superiority may have changed over time, I still think that means Vader's force power ceiling is at Ben Kenobi.

@BreakofDawn

Right, and in the fight with Ben was Ben noted to be learning to compensate on the Tatooine sand, or that he was shaking off the rust, or that the Force was helping him overcome the age disparity? Because it was explicitly stated that SK was starting to regain his strength as soon as the fight with the clones ended.

No... that's kind of the point. None of these points are referenced again, yet we don't assume that all of these factors just vanished because the writer didn't see it fit to mention them again. This same standard applies to SK, we don't just assume he replenished his reserves from close to 0 to 100 when the lore doesn't indicate that is possible, just because there's an excerpt which mentions him "regaining his strength" with no mention that he fully recovered. This whole argument from the Vader camp is just appealing to authorial intent without acknowledging that the writer doesn't gain anything from consistently mentioning Starkiller's exhaustion which goes back to my core point which you absolutely failed to address: "Why should SK's fatigue be brought up again? What does the writer actually prove from repeatedly mentioning it?" I could go on and on about different examples in the lore where circumstances to a fight are only mentioned at the beginning and ignored for the rest of the fight, but I don't want to bore you to tears, so I'll leave it at this.

So...you think SK took some deep breaths, stayed in a defensive pose, took note of the blood that covered every inch of the platform, slowly realised all of the clones were dead, shared a brief conversation with Vader, had a moment of realisation where he reflected on everything Vader had done with his training up until that point, then jump to the very top of a cloning tower platform by platform (which I've attached an image of below for a basic reference to how big those are)...all in less than a minute?

All of the shit underlined is absolutely irrelevant. Let's look at your original claim:

He then had about a minute or two to regain this strength by just standing in one place and thinking.

I'm sorry but I have to use this (Ziggy please forgive me for use of your holy gif if you see this):



Your entire original claim was based solely on SK's meditation session which makes sense... There's no reason for SK to gain any significant portion of strength while he's jumping around, talking and not meditating. Making the rest of your paragraph:

Shared a brief conversation with Vader, had a moment of realisation where he reflected on everything Vader had done with his training up until that point, then jump to the very top of a cloning tower platform by platform (which I've attached an image of below for a basic reference to how big those are)...all in less than a minute?

Entirely useless information.

And as for your point about how we have no idea how long he was regaining his strength for, we also don't know how fast his strength was returning. Per your argument, there's no reason why his power couldn't have regenerated quickly as soon as the battle had ended and he had a minute or two to catch his breath and prepare himself, especially since he was in a completely focused mindset that can and has been shown to have an impact on your abilities during a fight.

Per which argument? Anyway, Luke Skywalker explicitly states he needs food, rest and meditation to recover reserves (SK didn't have all of that shit) and that it takes days to recover. The fact that Starkiller regained all of his reserves from simply meditating for a few minutes at most is utterly laughable, and the only argument for this position is the fact that his exhaustion isn't mentioned during his fight with Vader... which is ridiculous. Remember the old saying: absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

Poor wording on my part. SK was completely blocking out any distractions and focusing all of his power and abilities on Vader. Not to mention Vader was, per the text, fighting cautiously and avoiding going on an all-out offensive, which also would give SK a bit of time to recover even more energy.

The first part is an irrelevancy and the second part doesn't address my claim: "How is SK going to recover Force Reserves when he's using them up while fighting...?" Note what I said above: "Luke Skywalker explicitly states he needs food, rest and meditation to recover reserves." SK in this scenario (fighting) had absolutely none of the 3.

I...don't think that was meant literally. If you're even more exhausted than you were when you were on the verge of death, then you would for all intents and purposes be either A) passing out, B) having blurred vision or struggling to stand, or C) dead. His exhaustion was conveyed as his muscles shaking, which speaking from personal experience doesn't mean you're anywhere near death, only that you've exerted yourself and need to stop and take a break (which Starkiller did).

Except SK isn't like a normal human he has the Force to sustain himself against all 3 things mentioned... By on the verge of death, I meant his Force Reserves were close to running out meaning he'd die due to fact that he had nothing to keep himself going with.

Tl;dr:

-It's supported within the lore that you can instantly recover your reserves with a couple of minute meditation session.

-The fact that SK's exhaustion is not mentioned within the fight doesn't mean it wasn't there and as it stands that argument is a weak appeal to authorial intent.

Just to add to all of the above SK states the clones he beat while exhausted could have easily overpowered Vader, and it's also noted Vader hadn't improved much from TFU 1 to TFU 2 and in the former Starkiller ragdolled Vader. Overall, it's made clear within the novels that non-exhausted Starkiller is far more powerful than Vader.

@KingofBlades

Lol, we both posted WoT's at the exact same time. I'm sure BoD and Elm are going to have great fun responding.

@NotAA3 Did you really have to reply with an entire essay, lol? It's gonna take me about 10 years to reply with this since this laptop is going out the window, lmao.

BreakofDawn wrote:@NotAA3 Did you really have to reply with an entire essay, lol? It's gonna take me about 10 years to reply with this since this laptop is going out the window, lmao.

Sorry, it's a bad habit. I tend to write a lot when I get into my flow, I honestly really need to be more concise.