Jedi Dooku vs RotS Kenobi

Kenobi is almost certainly noticeably more powerful than the Count in this match

LOTL wrote:Kenobi is almost certainly noticeably more powerful than the Count in this match

For the force to become a factor in the battle, the gap has to be considerable. Even Yoda in AotC didn't have a big enough edge in force power for it to be a factor in their battle. So the chance that Kenobi's superiority in the force(if there even is one) is significant enough for it to be a factor is doubtful. Also using force attacks isn't Kenobi's style as he has to temporarily lower his stonewall defense to do so.

Kenobi has it in a close fight.

@O-Siri

O-Siri wrote:Which is why a far more powerful Dooku got his assault stonewall with zero effort.

Three strikes blocked by a Kenobi who changes suddenly from intentionally being sub-par to his full combative ability? Yeah, no. Think again, buddy. That isn't stonwalling.

O-Siri wrote:Kenobi is a superior master of Soresu than even Yoda, who's own application was capable of stonewall Dooku on Geonosis in a similar effortless fashion. And Kenobi doing the same to a more powerful RotS version is a validation of this fact.

Have you heard of something called augmenation ?

Yoda blocked everything the Count threw at him for an extended period of time until the dude tired out. Kenobi blocked like 3 strikes. Comparing them doesn’t work.

@Entombed

1. A series of lethal strikes parried with minimal effort and without giving any ground. That's the textbook definition of stonewalling. And you know very well Dooku was already aware of Kenobi "getting serious" previously when he was bedazzled by Kenobi's "bewilderingly fast" defensive wall. 

2. Kenobi's supremacy in the form includes augmentation. You can't master Soresu or any form for that matter without augmentation. Lightsaber duels are equal parts of physical ability and the Force, you can't separate the two. It doesn't matter that Yoda has superior augmentation overall, his application of Soresu is still objectively inferior to RotS Kenobi's.

Kenobi's perfect mastery of Soresu outclasses Yoda's application as per both reliable IU statements in a flashback with Mace which is then reiterated by the narrator once the scene cuts back to the present making the statement an objective fact and not just an IU opinion. 

And Yoda's defensive description is almost identical to Kenobi's:

Dooku went into a wild flurry then, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan or Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive Master. But Yoda didn't even seem to move. He didn't step back or to the side, yet his subtle dodges and precision parries kept Dooku's blade slashing and stabbing harmlessly wide."

Which is exactly the same defensive stance he utilized against Grievous:

After all, he had often walked unscathed through hornet-swarms of blasterfire, defended only by the Force’s direction of his blade; countering twelve blows per second was only difficult, not impossible. His blade wove an intricate web of angles and curves, never truly fast but always just fast enough, each motion of his lightsaber subtly interfering with three or four or eight of the general’s strikes, the rest sizzling past him, his precise, minimal shifts of weight and stance slipping them by centimeters."

"Subtle dodges" "minimal shifts in weight and stance slipping". So yeah I'm just going to go out on a limb and assume Yoda was using Soresu, and Kenobi being the superior in that form can replicate Yoda's Geonosis feat and then some.

King Joker wrote:Leaning Dooku in a hard-fought sweep. Comparably skilled to his Sith self, younger, and still extremely powerful to boot.

Multiple sources have Sith Dooku>>>>>>Jedi Dooku, so I don't think they are comparably skilled.

Even in pure sabers, technical skill is only half the equation, the more powerful you are the more proficient your blade is, that's why Bane went from being clearly inferior to holding back Kas'im, to confidently beating him in the span of less than a year despite the blade master still being his better in technical skill. And Dooku notes that his power increased beyond his wildest dreams when he joined Sidious so there is a major power gap between the two counterparts, much like Anakin and Vader when he took "Force LSD" when he jumped from tier 8 to tier 9 in a similarly short time. Jedi Dooku definitely doesn't scale from Tyranus's saber feats just because they may be comparable in technical skill.

O-Siri wrote:Even in pure sabers, technical skill is only half the equation, the more powerful you are the more proficient your blade is, that's why Bane went from being clearly inferior to holding back Kas'im, to confidently beating him in the span of less than a year despite the blade master still being his better in technical skill. And Dooku notes that his power increased beyond his wildest dreams when he joined Sidious so there is a major power gap between the two counterparts, much like Anakin and Vader when he took "Force LSD" when he jumped from tier 8 to tier 9 in a similarly short time. Jedi Dooku definitely doesn't scale from Tyranus's saber feats just because they may be comparable in technical skill.

disagree on your POV .
technical skills remain pretty much the same , just your speed and raw power are increased .
even as a jedi dooku was regarded as the finest swordsman in the order second only to yoda .
his skills with the blade remained the same (improved slightly maybe) , he just became more powerful overall .

for example kenobi did not grow that much as a force user from AoTC to RoTS ,
on the other hand he greatly improved his mastery with the blade to the point he was regarded as the greatest soresu master of all time
and to the point he can challange the very best tier 8s on regular bases
(although his somewhat weaker connection with the force let him down in his confrontations against dooku ,
but as a swordsman he became dookus peer , maybe even superior)


anakin did not became more masterful with the blade , he just added much more raw power and anger to his strikes ,
he was stronger , dooku was not beaten because anakin was technically better , he got defeated because skywalker overpowered him .

O-Siri wrote:1. A series of lethal strikes parried with minimal effort and without giving any ground. That's the textbook definition of stonewalling. And you know very well Dooku was already aware of Kenobi "getting serious" previously when he was bedazzled by Kenobi's "bewilderingly fast" defensive wall. 

Prove it was minimal effort for Kenobi. You're conflating Dooku's POV with your debating premise that Kenobi is > Dooku in sabers. Separate the two. Not to mention that, again, Dooku was in a flustered state due to the rapid change of the duo's fighting styles.

O-Siri wrote:2. Kenobi's supremacy in the form includes augmentation. You can't master Soresu or any form for that matter without augmentation. Lightsaber duels are equal parts of physical ability and the Force, you can't separate the two. It doesn't matter that Yoda has superior augmentation overall, his application of Soresu is still objectively inferior to RotS Kenobi's.

Sure, but you're conflating technical skill with overall combative capability. Let's take an extreme example to prove a point. We have combatant X who has Kenobi's skill in Soresu, but his augmentation is 25% of combatant Y, who has Yoda's skill in Soresu. If we then place both these combatants against combatant Z, who has the same augmentation as Y, then X isn't going to stand a chance, regardless of how good he is technically with the form. So then, we have to realise that being "the master of Soresu" isn't the same as being the best combatant with Soresu objectively. Yoda using Soresu is going to last longer against Sidious in a duel than Kenobi is, even if Kenobi has a more deepened and developed understanding of Soresu than Yoda does; we need to consider augmentation and Force reserves.

And that's all under the assumption that Kenobi actually is > Yoda in Soresu skill.

This guy

@dark_globe

1. Technical skill isn't all that goes into blade work:

Path of Destruction wrote:"Do you have anything you want me to work on for tomorrow?" Bane asked eagerly. "A new sequence? A new form? Anything?" "You've moved far beyond sequences and forms," the Master told him. "In that last pass you broke off your attack in the middle of one sequence and came at me from a completely different and unexpected angle." "I did?" Bane was surprised. "I ... I didn't really mean to." "That's what made it such a potentially devastating move," Kas'im explained. "You're letting the Force guide your blade now. You act without thought or reason. You're driven by passion: fury, anger . . . even hate. Your saber has become an extension of the dark side."

Path of Destruction wrote:"I'm sorry, Master. I will go practice the drills again," he said through gritted teeth. "Drills?" the Twi'lek repeated, his voice cruel and mocking. "What good will that do?" "I ... I must learn the sequence better. To become faster." Kas'im spat on the ground. "If you truly believe that, then you're a fool." Bane didn't know how to respond, so he kept silent. The Blademaster stepped forward and gave him a sharp cuff on his ear. It was meant not to hurt, but to humiliate. "Fohargh was better trained than you," he snapped. "He knew more sequences, he knew more forms. But they couldn't save him. "The sequences are just tools. They help you free your mind so you can draw upon the Force. That is where you will find the key to victory. Not in the muscles of your arms or the quickness of your blade. You must call upon the dark side to destroy your enemies!"

As Kas'im explains the Force is guiding Bane's actions and allows him to perform new sequences he never used before. So isn't just speed and strength that the Force increases, it's also an increase in combat intuition, reflexes, and instincts. It's an overall proficiency. And Bane even here was still clearly inferior to a Kas'im who was still holding back. 

Path of Destruction wrote:
His strike was turned aside at the last second, but he quickly followed it up with another series of powerful thrusts and stabs. The Blademaster continued to give ground, pushed inexorably back by the raging storm of Bane's onslaught. Each time he tried to change tactics or switch forms, Bane anticipated, reacted, and seized the advantage. 


The outcome was inevitable. Bane was simply too strong in the Force. Only some unexpected maneuver could save Kas'im, but they had fought too many times in the past for him to surprise Bane now. Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move, and trick with the double-bladed lightsaber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all.

And here despite Kas'im still being superior in technical skill by a large margin, Bane was able to anticipate and react to all of the blademaster's moves, and this was attributed to his strength in the Force not any increase in technical skill which he logically wouldn't have had time to further develop in his quest for new sources of dark side knowledge.

So yeah Dooku's prowess with the blade would have increased vastly, due to his large documented increase in power. 

2. Dooku's second to only Yoda accolades doesn't mean he's just as good with the blade as a Sith. It just means he's better than everyone else except maybe Mace who has even better accolades comparing him to Yoda at this time. Everyone else is 'cept Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan is practically featless and unknown at this point in time so the accolade doesn't lend him much leverage or make up for his lack of showings once we get into the CW theatre. 

3. 

for example kenobi did not grow that much as a force user from AoTC to RoTS ,

How do you come to that conclusion? Even if for the sake of the argument I agreed, it doesn't matter as Dooku's power growth IS documented and as is there precedent for the Force improving on one's blade work.

4. 

anakin did not became more masterful with the blade , he just added much more raw power and anger to his strikes ,

He went from tier 8 at the start of RotS to tier 9 when he turned to the dark side, all thanks to "Force LSD". "Masterful" "skillful" "powerful" "formidable" "proficient", call it whatever you want, the point is Anakin is a completely different beast as a dark sider, and so should by logic Dooku compared with his Jedi counterpart.