Darth Sidious vs The Son

Composite Legends and Canon for both, this is a facts and logic thread only so reasons must be given.

The Son, because he is a One, and probably a fourth of Abeloth.

The Son easily wins. He's massively above Sidious in virtually every regard and can only be killed by a being as powerful as him or by the Mortis dagger.

Abeloth is less powerful than the Son based on a quote, and Abeloth is stronger than Luke, who is stronger than Palpatine. The son wins

Abeloth > Son + Daughter, I thought?

why this thread even exists in the first place ?
unless sidious has the dagger of mortis along with week of prep and help from
valkorion , GM luke , post pool taalon , plagueis , krayt , yoda , KF vader , peak mace etc this is a massive mismatch .

the son one shots . because he is basically a god of the dark side .  only mortis anakin , abeloth and father could beat him , daughter could stalemate .

The Son is nigh invincible and absolutely more powerful. Sidious doesn't stand a chance.

Here is why Darth Sidious wins.

DE Sheev >/>>> RotS Sheev > all Sith in history (including >/>>>>>> Bane who is > Vitiate) & also TPM Windu (who is > all Jedi who walked temple corridors) > Revan Reborn > KOTOR Revan >> SF Malak >> Exar Kun (who is the darkest power in the galaxy) > Abeloth and The Son

This makes sense from a feats perspective due to the following facts:

"If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old masters."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
Chris Avellone, the head writer of Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords, has confirmed that Kreia's predictions are accurate:

"Kreia is setting the stage for what we imagined KOTOR3 to be, and as we had a sense for the power that we wanted those Sith Lords to reveal, her predictions are accurate. And yes, she had a number of Sith holocrons that she had read (the ones on Telos)."

Source: https://i.imgur.com/9FkGpPb.png

So Kun, Ragnos, Nadd, Naga etc are > Nihilus, but even better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VvS5MLnG0Y&t=4m18s

Nihilus is again confirmed not to be no their level in force drain/force powers so when we factor in that Nihilus:

-Pulled the Ravager out of a gravity well with TK and then held the ship together with TK passively
-Is a casual planet-surface wiper (something that is beyond The Son's feats)

It's plain to see why Kun is so powerful. Not to mention Kun was the darkest power in the galaxy during a time where Aleema controlled the Sith Corsair which could easily rip the core out of a star and cause supernovas, and he also scales above Thon who funnelled and passively constrained an entire planets worth dark side spirits into a small lake, and kept em there while he easily defeated a group of powerful Jedi amped by Sith spirits contained within the dark holocron. The sith spirits kept in the lake were none other than what were brought about by the dark side sorcereress on Ambria who the Huntress witnessed planet surface wiping with a ritual. The same Huntress who after experiencing this first hand thought RoT Bane was the most powerful Force presence she had ever experienced by far (Bane who we know is way below Sidious but above Kun, Vitiate etc so this makes sense).

But just to kind of finish things off here Kun's extremely weakened spirit is more dangerous than modern-age super weapons.



We already know that turbolasers can glass planets/continents so super weapons are way beyond this. Also Kun was a nonphysical spirit which per the dark side sourcebook can barely affect the physical world and also its noted in jedi academy training manual that Kun barely has any energy so can't use his full range of powers, and can only partially channel these through Kyp, Gantoris and Streen. Luke and co. all say that if Kun or Ragnos were resurrected they would die which is true based on facts presented.

As for Wankatine himself:

Unleashing the full power of his hatred, he conjures a Force Storm that threatens to consume all of space, including the New Republic fleet.
--The Comics Companion

It's not even important that Sheev can destroy the Eclipse (which has shields which scale above the shields of that smaller ship which casually tanked two ISDs being dropped directly onto it out of hyperspace), because his Force storm can destroy anything. Sheev destroys the space-time continuum with his force storm and alters dimensions, so this is basically beyond any matter's ability to resist.

This is perhaps the single most destructive Force power known. This power allows the Jedi to twist the space-time continuum to create vast storms of force. The power also allows limited control of these storms. Capable of creating annihilating vortices, the storms can swallow whole fleets of spaceships or tear the surfaces off worlds.

--Dark Empire Sourcebook

The swirling vortex of dimension-altering energy consumed Luke, and deposited him far away on the Deep Core world of Byss.

--Databank (2008): Luke Skywalker

In other words, this is infinite destructive power within a 3D universe and Sheev can produce these:

1. With a thought

2. Anywhere in the galaxy

3. With precision

4. With the ability to eventually consume all of space with them

So Sheev would open up a Force Storm on the Son and kill him easily the end.

Before anyone starts trying to wank Luke under Abeloth to put her above Sheev, we have a quote saying that Luke, Leia and fetus Anakin Solo joined in "all their Force sensitivity" and channeled the Light Side in "all its intensity" just to sever Sidious from his own Storm. They didn't overpower the Storm, or Sheev himself, they basically just distracted him and let him beat himself. Now, several points to make:

-The DE Endnotes make it clear that this was what was "necessary" to defeat Sheev, so three Oneness Skywalkers basically acting as a go-between for the Light Side of the Force's full power

-The Light Side is the hard counter to the dark side per countless sources, the Son is an avatar of the dark side (unlike Sheev and Vitiate who are literal manifestations of it but I digress), so he cannot even use this same power to stop Sheev's Force storm

-The fact that this was what was needed to defeat Sheev means that anything less is not enough, and since Sheev's Force storm goes through durability and destroys all of space, time and dimensional barriers he should have no problem oneshotting the Son

Also, Sheev's spirit needed all Jedi in history (which would include Anakin, who is the second coming of the Father who bitches out the Son for fun) just to keep him locked in the Netherworld. They couldn't even kill him. So Sheev's spirit could just open a Force storm inside the Son's brain and kill him easily if he lost his physical body, not that it would come to that.

so you create your own thread about who would win despite already having your own answer (lovely) (obviously)
and then proceed to unleash this "novel" upon us .

long story short the son stomps hard in a mismatch . period .
get over it .

I'll respond to your statement ILS.

Sheev is > all modern Sith which includes Reborn Krayt thanks to the databank quote.

Vong Legacy Krayt already "far outstrips all Sith of his era" which includes Darish Vol, who has much the power of Luke Skywalker.

Now, it basically took Krayt + Luke combined to beat Abeloth. And Vol is not far behind them given he fucked up Abeloth and has the majority of Luke's power.

So Legacy Krayt far outstrips >>> Vol < Krayt or Luke

Ok thats cool, but Abeloth is 13x Luke, whereas Legacy Krayt is about 3x Vol to be conservative. Well, thats fine for two reasons:

1. Abeloth is a retard in fighting. She lost to two people who are both 13x weaker than herself. Even though she was fighting lots of other people, she was still way more powerful than all her foes so shes disproportionately weaker as a fighter compared to her actual power level.

2. Krayt when he was Reborn came back with his "power multiplied" and he was "far" more than what he was before. Think of it like if Bane had orbalisks but they never amped him, only drained his power, but then he was suddenly free of them and healed back to peak physicals after like 100 years of training and power boosts from fighting the orbalisks off. Thats basically Krayt.

So Reborn is probably 6x Legacy Krayt, who is x3 Vol.

Reborn Krayt therefore is being conservative worth 18 Darish Vols. Only a true sophist would try to tell me that 18 Darish Vols wouldn't clobber Abeloth when all it really took was a good force drain from one shit tier Krayt. And Sheev is more powerful than Krayt even by RotS since thats when the databank refers to in present tense whereas Krayt is referred to in past tense.

Now, Krayt also has big feats, like telepathically mind raping every dark sider in the galaxy with a force vision and having millions of SIth troopers under his thrall, to the point they all committed jihad the moment he died. So in all likelihood he would mindrape Abeloth in his prime considering Darish Vol who he is worth 18 of nearly killed Abeloth. BTW Abeloth's best feat while Force Rage amped is city level which isn't even on the level of Ludo Kressh at this point.

If anyone wants to embarrass themselves further by going against me the floor is open.

According to the people who invented the Son, Darth Revan and Darth Bane's weakened spirits were these uber powerful beings who predated the Son and provided him with guidance.

So the writers of the Son and people who control the continuity agree with me that basically anyone above Kun is above the Son.

Which makes sense, since the Ones are just weird aliens who rely mainly on lip service instead of hard feats. Their strange powers like shapeshifting and shutting down lightsaber blades are replicated by Nightsisters, Exar Kun and Lomi Plo. Their immortality isn't even impressive considering the fact it's worse than Valkorion's. Valkorion made Scourge's body immortal so that even after 300 years he couldn't kill himself. When Valk died Scourge was finally able to die, ergo, Valkorion passively confers immortality and/or invincibility on other beings. And its even better than the Son because the Son can be killed by what amounts to some kind of alchemy-dagger whereas Scourge couldn't even die by flying into the sun, lightsabering his brain etc.

Anyway, not that I really needed to mention this since it's pretty obvious, but Anakin already ragdolled the Son and Daughter at the same time. In the same show, Sidious ragdolled Anakin. If you want to claim that this isn't obvious authorial intent, then I counter by pointing out that the Mortis arc is just as easily an illusion as Sheev's illusion on Yoda, meaning that the Son is an apocryphal character at best.

Now assuming that the Mortis arc did happened, we don't even need the Yoda vision to prove Sheev can ragdoll the Son. Anakin felt more powerful than ever on several occasions after the Mortis arc which includes the time he was ragdolling the Son and Daughter. He also has accolades of growing vastly more powerful over time etc. Even suited Vader has quotes putting him as more powerful than he had ever been before which includes Mustafar and Operation Knightfall where Vader, up to that point, was drawing on the Force more deeply than ever.

I have no idea what I just read but it's making me want to hit my head against a wall repeatedly. The idea of any iteration of Sheev being close to the Son, let alone above him, is absolutely laughable. I'm going to give ILS the benefit of the doubt here and assume he's trolling and can't genuinely believe this rubbish.

BreakofDawn wrote:I have no idea what I just read but it's making me want to hit my head against a wall repeatedly.

Some red pills are tougher to swallow than others

@ILS That's not a red pill. That's the sedative they give to lunatics when escorting them to a home for the clinically insane.

I must admit there is some truth to this arguments

BreakofDawn wrote:@ILS That's not a red pill. That's the sedative they give to lunatics when escorting them to a home for the clinically insane.

I don't think attacking people with ad hominem rather than focusing on countering their arguments is conducive to the kind of civilized and progressive debating culture we promote here at Suspect Insight, but I accept your tacit concession that you cannot refute any of my arguments

ILS wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:@ILS That's not a red pill. That's the sedative they give to lunatics when escorting them to a home for the clinically insane.

I don't think attacking people with ad hominem rather than focusing on countering their arguments is conducive to the kind of civilized and progressive debating culture we promote here at Suspect Insight, but I accept your tacit concession that you cannot refute any of my arguments

I'm pretty certain you're trolling but I'll highlight one part of your argument for now.

Anyway, not that I really needed to mention this since it's pretty obvious, but Anakin already ragdolled the Son and Daughter at the same time. In the same show, Sidious ragdolled Anakin.

Two different versions. One was Anakin standing on one of the most potent nexuses in the galaxy, allowing him to unlock his full power and use it to bring both the Son and the Daughter to their knees. The other one was baseline Anakin who is < Dooku. Hardly comparable. 

If you want to claim that this isn't obvious authorial intent, then I counter by pointing out that the Mortis arc is just as easily an illusion as Sheev's illusion on Yoda, meaning that the Son is an apocryphal character at best.

Not true: 


The distress signal was also detected by the Clones (meaning something caused it), they're featured in Rebels, and even Sidious believed that they existed. 

Now assuming that the Mortis arc did happened

It did.

Anakin felt more powerful than ever on several occasions after the Mortis arc which includes the time he was ragdolling the Son and Daughter.

The Mortis arc was a one-time thing. He unlocked his pull potential only once, then lost it again. It's not really evidence, only a contradiction that makes little sense.

He also has accolades of growing vastly more powerful over time etc.

Yeah, in comparison to the TCW movie Anakin for example who was being pretty easily overpowered by Dooku.

Even suited Vader has quotes putting him as more powerful than he had ever been before which includes Mustafar and Operation Knightfall where Vader, up to that point, was drawing on the Force more deeply than ever.

Referring to a consistent, lasting state of power. For example, we don't have Luke entering Oneness then later on saying "I've grown in power but I'm still a lot less powerful than I was in Oneness" because both situations were circumstantial one-offs. They are clearly not taken into account in the lasting narrative of the character's power growth because they barely lasted more than a few minutes, could only be accessed under very specific circumstances and have never been replicated since.

@breakofdawn

The Son and Daughter had the nexus amp too so that's irrelevant, and it's also irrelevant because Anakin himself drew more deeply on the Force than ever per quotes. We also have quotes of him being more powerful than ever at later dates which would include him ragdolling the Son and Daughter on Mortis.

Yes Mortis exists, but given that Anakin has no clear memory of the Mortis arc, your guess is as good as mine what actually happened there. It's entirely possible they hallucinated.

Prove Anakin only drew on his full power on Mortis that one time and that the myriad quotes stating he drew more deeply on the Force later/was more powerful later don't apply to Mortis. Burden of proof is on you.

No, it says he grew vastly more powerful, not vastly more powerful from only a select point in time. Prove me wrong or quit.

Proof that it wouldn't be taken into account in Anakin's case? An OOU quote blanket stating that he was drawing on the Force more deeply than ever would include him on Mortis, which btw, you haven't even proven was a one-off. You insist it's a one-off but provide no evidence for this. What a shame.

ILS wrote:Vong Legacy Krayt already "far outstrips all Sith of his era" which includes Darish Vol, who has much the power of Luke Skywalker.

Actually my main disagreement is with this quote as I think it only refers to Krayt’s own empire, and I would remove the whole Abeloth part. Otherwise the arguments presented in Sheev’s favor are fair.

It says era not empire. SW timeline is divided into eras. The Legacy era includes everything from like Legacy of the Force onwards.

Legacy era can be used as a shorthand for the comic series, but I think when an OOU fact file/insider type source is making a declarative statement about an entire era it would be using the proper definition for era as defined by the inner flap of nearly every SW novel and comic. If you have any evidence that the less common and officially used version of the term "era" is what is being used I am all ears my dear friend @MasterCilghal

I've been saying this for years

BTW guys there's another argument showing the Son is fairly low tier but this is more focused on Valkorion.

The Darkstaff has existed for most of the SW timeline from early TOR up to Legacy era. So basically any quotes about darkest master of the dark side/power in the galaxy applies to this. This means as a baseline Kun, Vitiate and Sidious are above the dark staff. But this is obvious from the story as well.

Vitiate/Valkorion had insane troves of power and knowledge hidden away which even centuries like takes people years to go through. The Darkstaff is one of many of these artifacts that Vitiate had and it was lying gathering dust for a long time. The Darkstaff was even wielded by one of the Dread masters at one point. Vitiate can easily oneshot all of the dread masters and he's below Valkorion.

The Darkstaff has way better feats than anything the Son has. It was hit by a 1km long and wide bolt of Force Lightning from the dark side itself. After this it transported a 2 sun solar system 10 years into the future. Yet this was some fodder relic in Vitiate's eyes.

Ziost is also better than anything the Son has and yet we have quotes saying Valkorion > Vitiate. Not to mention that, but Vitiate has tons of quotes saying he's the supreme Force wielder of the era, the supreme manifestation of the dark side, the most dangerous threat in the galaxy etc, so he scales (unsurprisingly) over all of the Sith Empire's super weapons and artifacts that are kept in the vaults, which includes the dark staff.

Now, better yet, Soa scales above the dark staff as well, because his power was so insane that he would make the conflict between the Jedi and Sith/Republic and Empire irrelevant if he made it into the galaxy. So he is above everything mentioned before including artifacts, darkstaff and super weapons. Not to mention the Rakata couldn't kill him but rather locked him away, and the Nightsisters jerryrigged an old Rakatan infinity gate to obliterate Coruscant so the Rakata could have used that on Soa but it wouldn't have killed him. Yet, Soa is below Valkorion as a threat per many quotes. He's also below Sidious thanks to his quotes of being the most powerful guy to ever use the dark side.

Valkorion or Sheev > Vitiate > Soa > Republic and Sith Empire (super weapons and darkstaff included) > Son

Or Valk or Sheev > Soa > rakata > destroying Coruscant > Son's feats

Peak!Sidious ~ 50% FP Anakin >>> Son

@ILS 

The Son and Daughter had the nexus amp too so that's irrelevant

On a world they had complete control over, so it's kind of difficult to say they were amped when they were the ones powering the nexus. 

,and it's also irrelevant because Anakin himself drew more deeply on the Force than ever per quotes.

Which is clearly not true.

We also have quotes of him being more powerful than ever at later dates which would include him ragdolling the Son and Daughter on Mortis.

Already addressed this. 

Yes Mortis exists, but given that Anakin has no clear memory of the Mortis arc, your guess is as good as mine what actually happened there.

Considering they then went back to Coruscant and Yoda later told Luke about the Ones and Anakin, Obi-Wan and Ahsoka's visit, it seems pretty damn likely he remembered a lot of it. He even told the Council (or at least Yoda) about the Mortis dagger. 

It's entirely possible they hallucinated.

Which there's no proof for beyond pointless speculation based on a refusal to believe the portrayal of the show and an attempt by you to look impressive by trying to challenge something established long ago. That claim is also debunked by Rebels, Sidious, and the Legends continuity. Burden of proof is on you, mate. 

Prove Anakin only drew on his full power on Mortis that one time and that the myriad quotes stating he drew more deeply on the Force later/was more powerful later don't apply to Mortis. Burden of proof is on you.

Let's see:

> Anakin despite growing immensely was still < Dooku until he achieved his Zonakin state.
> Knightfall Vader, despite being more powerful than any iteration of the character ever, was still only a peer to ROTS Sidious, who's vastly below DE Sidious.
> The Son per the Father's own words had the power to "tear the very fabric of our universe", which ROTS Sidious doesn't have anything even remotely close to either feat or accolade wise.
> The Son was also capable of completely tipping the balance of the Force simply by killing the Daughter, indicating that his and the Daughter's presence in the Force is virtually unmatched by any other being.
> Upon killing the Daughter, the Son plunged an entire planet into darkness and was, according to the Father, going to cause an escalation in the Clone Wars and boost the power of the Sith (including Sidious), indicating also that his presence in the Force was greater than Sheev's.

While on Mortis, there are numerous indications that Anakin is tapping into his full potential:

> The Father's test was designed to prove to Anakin that he was the Chosen One beyond all doubt.
> Anakin at his base level is absolutely nothing to the Ones, to the point that they can one-shot him with a casual gesture.
> When Obi-Wan remarks to Anakin about the planet essentially being the Force, Anakin immediately undergoes a huge transformation, not only ragdolling the Son and Daughter but also altering Mortis between day and night merely as a side-effect. Upon doing this, the Father attributes this to his full potential, stating that "only the Chosen One could tame both of my children." If it were just a simple amp, this wouldn't have happened later on:

https://youtu.be/7vfFX4K2ulI?t=68

Anakin would have been able to replicate the feat, but he was not. 

No, it says he grew vastly more powerful, not vastly more powerful from only a select point in time. Prove me wrong or quit.

Cool, so you also believe that Starkiller's Clone > or >> Oneness Galen? 

Proof that it wouldn't be taken into account in Anakin's case? An OOU quote blanket stating that he was drawing on the Force more deeply than ever would include him on Mortis, which btw, you haven't even proven was a one-off.

Let's mix this up a little. Show me a feat from non-Mortis Anakin comparable to this:

You insist it's a one-off but provide no evidence for this. What a shame.

Pretty sure I've covered that in this post. 

EDIT: Before you respond, read the quotes and statements in my second post.