Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

@Azronger:
I think that Venamis win because:
- I have the Plagueis that face Venamis way higher than Maul.
- I think that today Maul is put too high in regard to his real level
- The fact that Maul have been choosen by Sidious to be his first apprentice didn't translate in the fact that Maul will become the next sith of the rule of two. He could have succeed or he could loose. The whole banite lineage is too vague to know if any sith lords find their good apprentice with the first one they choose.
- Venamis have been train by Tenebrous as a really good swordman so clearly he won't be kill by Maul because of a lack of lightsaber capacity.

But I agree on the fact that this is based mainly on the supposition and logical deduction not on feat (which, sadly, Venamis haven't really much).

Azronger wrote:

LOTL wrote:At that point, Plagueis is considerably below Tenebrous obviously. There is no way to exactly gauge how high the gap between them is, so TPM Sidious could be much much better than Venamis or he could be considerably better but not enough to stomp him. Basically we can't compare TPM Maul because the parameters are too ambiguous

Unless Az has a method to compare 52 BBY Palpatine to that version of Plagueis, because TPM Maul should be superior to that version of Palpatine

TCW Maul beats him though, based on his battle against Sidious, even though it was a stomp, Maul still managed to hold on for some amount of time( like Anakin enraged vs Count Dooku)

I do, in fact. It's not rock solid, but it's something. Part I Plagueis muses that the technique of Force drain had been lost, but Part II Sidious is seen employing it against a dying animal. The implication is that Plagueis rediscovered the ability and grew enough in power to be comfortable teaching it to his apprentice without fear of premature usurpation, or that Sidious developed the talent on his own in a little over a decade, displaying an immeasurably greater affinity for the dark side over Plagueis, who failed to grasp the power in over a century.

And I concur with TCW Maul's victory here, for the same reason you gave. It's TPM Maul vs. Venamis I'm unsure of.

It's loose yeah, but this battle too is. Any method to augment it?

However, Maul should be superior to 52 BBY Sidious since not only does he have the same potential but longer training and confirmed best training in history. Solidifying 52 BBY Sidious's position in comparison to Plagueis should make it easier to compare Maul against the later Banites

Azronger wrote:

mastercilghal wrote:@Azronger Venamis wasn’t really a match for Plagueis, at least not after the latter started to get serious. Tpm Maul was blitzed by a Sidious who should be a bit more powerful than that version of Plagueis.

So because Maul was blitzed and stomped far harder by Sidious than Venamis was by Plagueis, Maul wins? I'm afraid I don't follow you.

You're incorrect about Venamis being insufficient to challenge Plagueis, regardless: the Muun was serious from the get-go and concluded that engaging Venamis conventionally would have perpetuated the engagement "indefinitely." His shift in tactics was done in response to Venamis' indomitable swordplay.

I didn’t explain it as well as I should have. I meant that, based on their feats, the two should be on the same level. Maul briefly fought Sidius while Venamis “challenged” a fairly pre-prime Plagueis ( although it was more a case of him being trained specifically to counter Plagueis)

Best training in history sure, but if it's only limited to mostly physical training, then it's necessarily the best physical training. IIRC, Legends material overall emphasises Maul's training as mostly physical.

Meatpants wrote:Best training in history sure, but if it's only limited to mostly physical training, then it's necessarily the best physical training. IIRC, Legends material overall emphasises Maul's training as mostly physical.

Okay, but surely something similar can be said about Venamis. So far as we know he is a highly technical duelist with knowledge in multiple forms and was trained specifically to counter Plagueis' style. As far as I can remember there is little to suggest Venamis went through a lot of training to attain new Force abilities and increase his personal power.

TheGlory wrote:

Meatpants wrote:Best training in history sure, but if it's only limited to mostly physical training, then it's necessarily the best physical training. IIRC, Legends material overall emphasises Maul's training as mostly physical.

Okay, but surely something similar can be said about Venamis. So far as we know he is a highly technical duelist with knowledge in multiple forms and was trained specifically to counter Plagueis' style. As far as I can remember there is little to suggest Venamis went through a lot of training to attain new Force abilities and increase his personal power.

No. Tenebrous trained Venamis to be a legitimate replacement for Plagueis, and therefore as a legitimate Banite Sith. Venamis would therefore have been trained in everything. Not to mention that the Banites trained in every form of lightsaber combat.

Meatpants wrote:

TheGlory wrote:

Meatpants wrote:Best training in history sure, but if it's only limited to mostly physical training, then it's necessarily the best physical training. IIRC, Legends material overall emphasises Maul's training as mostly physical.

Okay, but surely something similar can be said about Venamis. So far as we know he is a highly technical duelist with knowledge in multiple forms and was trained specifically to counter Plagueis' style. As far as I can remember there is little to suggest Venamis went through a lot of training to attain new Force abilities and increase his personal power.

No. Tenebrous trained Venamis to be a legitimate replacement for Plagueis, and therefore as a legitimate Banite Sith. Venamis would therefore have been trained in everything. Not to mention that the Banites trained in every form of lightsaber combat.

That doesn't necessarily mean his specialty and strengths didn't lie in the physical, much akin to Maul's. Besides, Maul likely did receive a decent Force education. If Ventress was permitted certain powers known to the Banites for generations e.g. Sorzus Syn's sorcery, then I can't see why Maul wouldn't have dabbled in such.

I would require evidence for Maul being trained as a full Banite Sith, just as Plagueis or Tenebrous would have been taught.

Meatpants wrote:I would require evidence for Maul being trained as a full Banite Sith, just as Plagueis or Tenebrous would have been taught.

Go read my first post to skillz or the Maul essay?... This has been common knowledge for a while now.

TCW Maul wins. TPM Maul is more unknown for me.

Meatpants wrote:I would require evidence for Maul being trained as a full Banite Sith, just as Plagueis or Tenebrous would have been taught.

Whether or not Maul is trained to be a full Banite is besides the point. My point is more so along the lines that simply because Maul appears to place more emphasis on physical training doesn't mean he would lose by default - especially by all implication from what we've got and the way in which Venamis approached the fight it's pretty clear he also likely emphasizes his saber skills and martial ability, at least over offensive Force usage. Plagueis even makes note of Venamis' enjoyment of saber combat. It could very much be akin to Zannah specializing in the field of sorcery because she has an affinity for it.

And on the point of Maul, yes sources paint him as a legitimate apprentice. As ILS said, go read his blog on the matter. It would save me transferring some of the sources over myself. Here's a link:
The Power of Darth Maul

Maul.

@Meatpants

Maul was definitely groomed by Sidious to be a genuine Rule of Two Sith with Force potential rivalling his own, and was given a comprehensive education in the dark arts. His first love being lightsaber combat does belie that, yes, as he's not wont to spam his powers, but inactivity doesn't translate to inability. All the evidence points to Maul being a bona fide, well-rounded master of the dark side as opposed to a mere disposable hitman.

On that note, @LOTL raised a good point. If Maul was subjected to such a demanding training regimen with the natural talent to reap the rewards at the same pace as his Master (who needs to introduction), it's unlikely for Venamis to know anything Maul doesn't, while Maul's knowledge of the Force is broader and probably deeper too. I might be inclined to favor even TPM Maul over Venamis now.

Venamis wins vs TPM Maul but loses to TCW Maul

Venamis

SoD Maul > Venamis > any other Maul, imo.