jedi dooku and TPM mace vs TPM sidious (prior to his masters dead)

standard rules , all out fight , who wins ?

Team. Reasonably more skilled and together they're fairly comparable in power.

Sidious.

NotAA3 wrote:Sidious.

reasons ?

I guess team can take the sabers but Palp has a solid edge with the Force.

They most certainly do not take sabers.

Meatpants wrote:They most certainly do not take sabers.

Why not?

Sidious is absurdly superior to Maul; Dooku and Mace together aren't going to bridge that gap.

dark_globe wrote:

NotAA3 wrote:Sidious.

reasons ?

Mace has been:

-Outperformed by TCW Maul in their encounter.
-Matched blow for blow by General Grievous.
-Forced to use all of his skills to defeat Asajj Ventress.

And 2 of these showings are after a substantial power boost in Shatterpoint.

Meanwhile, Sidious scales massively above comparably powerful and skilled combatants to those Mace struggled with (TPM Maul and Bane). Ask yourself this: Can you honestly see Sidious struggling in any of the situations Mace was placed in throughout TCW? If you can't then it should be fairly self-evident Sidious is vastly beyond him. And given that Dooku is Mace's inferior circa TPM, he is capped below all of Mace's struggles and given this I can't really see him making up the gap between Mace and Sidious.

NotAA3 wrote:

dark_globe wrote:

NotAA3 wrote:Sidious.

reasons ?

Mace has been:

-Outperformed by TCW Maul in their encounter.
-Matched blow for blow by General Grievous.
-Forced to use all of his skills to defeat Asajj Ventress.

And 2 of these showings are after a substantial power boost in Shatterpoint.

Meanwhile, Sidious scales massively above comparably powerful and skilled combatants to those Mace struggled with (TPM Maul and Bane). Ask yourself this: Can you honestly see Sidious struggling in any of the situations Mace was placed in throughout TCW? If you can't then it should be fairly self-evident Sidious is vastly beyond him. And given that Dooku is Mace's inferior circa TPM, he is capped below all of Mace's struggles and given this I can't really see him making up the gap between Mace and Sidious.

would RoTS dooku make any difference in this fight in your opinion ?

@dark_globe

Yes, he would. He probably solos tbh.

NotAA3 wrote:@dark_globe

Yes, he would. He probably solos tbh.

fair enough .
i ´ m not sure he could though .
it would be a brutal fight .
like a coin flip

vjun dooku certainly solos though .

Mace has been:

-Outperformed by TCW Maul in their encounter.

It was a single panel and he had to work around/with Aayla Secura, who's fodder. You're literally basing this on Maul blocking his blade while kicking Secura, which is a ridiculous conclusion. Not to mention the panel has Mace quite easily blocking the strike by Maul, and in what is hardly a good defensive position. Remind me where Sidious one-shot TCW Maul in sabers? 

-Matched blow for blow by General Grievous.

Yeah, in a duel that lasted about 20 seconds. 

-Forced to use all of his skills to defeat Asajj Ventress.

Per a single source. The comic has a shocked, disturbed Mace pretty easily driving Asajj back until she ends up running for her life, believing she has absolutely no chance against him. If Mace were using "all his skills", the fight would have been a lot closer.

RotS Dooku cannot solo Sidious.

Probably could solo pre-Plagueis' death Sidious.

Dooku isn't solo'ing pre-Plagueis death Sidious.

And I'd say that Sidious wins unless if Mace fights a lot closer to his "rivals Yoda" quotes than he does anytime outside of RotS.

@BreakofDawn

Regarding Maul:

It was a single panel and he had to work around/with Aayla Secura, who's fodder. You're literally basing this on Maul blocking his blade while kicking Secura, which is a ridiculous conclusion. Not to mention the panel has Mace quite easily blocking the strike by Maul, and in what is hardly a good defensive position. Remind me where Sidious one-shot TCW Maul in sabers?

I was referring to Maul out-reacting Mace against the exact same projectile with the exact same warning:



This wouldn't happen if Mace were significantly beyond Maul (like TPM Sidious is). This comparison becomes even worse when we consider that this is after Shatterpoint meaning this version of Mace is significantly more powerful than his TPM incarnation.

So, let's get a rough power chart here:

TPM Sidious>>TCW Maul=>Post-Shatterpoint TCW Windu>>Pre-Shatterpoint TCW Windu>TPM Windu.

This doesn't look that great for Windu now does it?

Regarding Grievous:

Yeah, in a duel that lasted about 20 seconds.

The length of the duel is irrelevant as evidence can still be gathered from it such as:

-Mace is astonished by Grievous's strength and speed and can't exceed it with his augmentation to any significant degree; claiming that Vapaad is his edge over the cyborg.

-Grievous is bound to the roof of their arena severely hampering his maneuverability and given that mobility is a key part of fencing it should be obvious Grievous is massively disadvantaged.

-Mace concedes the duel would be prolonged and decides to BFR Grievous with TK.

In short, Mace cannot claim he is massively better than Grievous and given that Sidious is, along with the fact that this is post-Shatterpoint it paints a clear picture of who is massively better out of the two.

Regarding Ventress:

Per a single source.

And we're back to the good old standby: "Objective 3rd party sources don't matter when they don't fit my POV." You have no reasonable grounds for dismissing the source other than elaborate reaching which I'll address once I've got the fact that this is just outright false anyway out of the way. Mace claims in the comic that he'd rather capture her alive, but if she continues to fight he will kill her. Given that Mace is a Jedi and he shouldn't be killing anyone unless he's forced to I'd say this dialogue is in complete agreement with the other quote that being that if Asajj fights him Mace will be forced to use all of his skills and kill her. If you put Sidious in that scenario he would have casually disarmed or ragdolled her, so this is a pretty embarrassing performance, to say the least.

The comic has a shocked, disturbed Mace pretty easily driving Asajj back until she ends up running for her life, believing she has absolutely no chance against him. If Mace were using "all his skills", the fight would have been a lot closer.

On what basis was Mace "shocked", "disturbed" and "easily driving Asajj back". The only true things you've said here are the underlined but they aren't of relevance to the actual comparison; all they prove is that Mace is decisively better which is something I never denied.

So, to conclude:

-Mace needs to go all out to beat Asajj.

-His physicals don't exceed Grievous's and he admitted he'd have a prolonged bout with the general despite the cyborg being significantly disadvantaged.

-He got outclassed by TCW Darth Maul.

-The latter two showings are after significant power growth.

And we're back to the good old standby: "Objective 3rd party sources don't matter when they don't fit my POV."

So what about the quotes that say Mace Windu rivals Yoda in power?

I'm giving it to Sidious.

When did Dooku get a boost on the forum to where he can beat Plagueis level characters?

@BreakofDawn It was a single panel and he had to work around/with Aayla Secura, who's fodder. You're literally basing this on Maul blocking his blade while kicking Secura, which is a ridiculous conclusion. Not to mention the panel has Mace quite easily blocking the strike by Maul, and in what is hardly a good defensive position. Remind me where Sidious one-shot TCW Maul in sabers? 

'Work around' Aayla? 

Because Jedi use the Force, they are particularly good at fighting together as a pair. Each knows the movements that the other will make before they make them 

Star Wars: The Clone Wars Jedi Adventures

Unless Mace and Aayla have a grudge or something that would hinder their ability to work effectively as a duo, neither are at any disadvantage. Aayla's also stated to be one of the most skilled warriors in the Jedi Order, with a 'legendary fighting style,' so Mace definitely has a good partner here. What makes this embarrassing for you is the fact that Maul's soldiers deem Aayla the biggest threat while watching the fight;



"Aim for the Twi'lek!" If she was truly 'fodder' as you say, Maul's loyal guards wouldn't see it as necessary to remove her from the duel as quickly as they did. Secondly we have this;



The panel before this we see Maul on the offensive, so it's safe to assume that he was still carrying on with his advance toward Mace prior to the rocket being fired. You must consider that Maul pressing an attack, hearing the warning, and then reversing his forward momentum into a backflip while Mace can only do so much as shield his face, shows a clear speed disparity. This isn't to say I agree with what HP is saying, merely that I think this answer was a cope.

If Mace couldn't react to the missile he and Secura wouldn't have been able to put up a protective Force barrier in time(you can clearly see them putting up their arms in a Force summoning posture in the panel, which prevented them from being vaporized). Maul contending with Mace even in two on one means nothing Ventress contended with Kenobi and Anakin for a decent period of time before finally being cornered and even scored some good hits, it doesn't mean shes superior to both of them individually, same with Dooku vs Anakin and Obi Wan, while he might be better than Obi-Wan he clearly isn't better than Anakin individually as Anakin always held the edge over Dooku when he was alone and unencumbered by Kenobi's presence. Also, Mace is in his fifties, an age where natural human reflexes will dwindle(look at any professional boxer who are barely in their forties), being ahead on reflexes doesn't mean Maul is superior in an overall sense. And we know from Shatterpoint that Mace isn't an exception when it comes to the aging process(Vaster's youth was considered an edge).

Grievous is enormously superior to any human in speed and strength as established by RotS and the cyborg was left feeling distraught by Mace's blade work and was glad his elite didn't survive to witness it(and yes the passage explicitly emphasis it was his prowess with the blade) even for such a short fight. And Mace didn't BFR because he couldn't beat him, he did it because he was aiming for a quick killing blow and it nearly did as Grievous admitted he wouldn't have survived the fall, it's just Mace didn't expect one of the gunships to be commandeered by the separatists to rescue him, and it took several chapters to confirm this fact.

Personally, I have Jedi Dooku around the level of TPM Maul, and while I'm sure Mace did improve, particularly after Shatterpoint, I don't think it was by such a degree we can't scale TPM Mace to his later CW accomplishments. His purported growth, after all, is assumed with reasonable inference from his character growth and experience, not documentation. 

By that same token aside from the boost he received from killing Plagueis, I don't think RotS Sidious grew that much if at all in power aside from a military and political sense. 

Personally, I give it the team unless Sidious's lightning is powerful enough to overpower both their guards. If, not the team can definitely take him in sabers.

O-Siri wrote:Personally, I have Jedi Dooku around the level of TPM Maul,

So you think Qui-Gon and Jedi Dooku are comparable in sabers?

Meatpants wrote:

O-Siri wrote:Personally, I have Jedi Dooku around the level of TPM Maul,

So you think Qui-Gon and Jedi Dooku are comparable in sabers?

Jinn isn't comparable to Maul in sabers, and Dooku would last longer without gassing in the first 40 seconds to an injured Maul.

Its clear that jedi Dooku was the third most powerful member of the order during TPM. Being on the same tier as Mace and TPM Yoda in sabers puts him above Maul. Thats also neglecting to mention the superior mastery of the force Dooku possesses.