Darth Caedus changing the Current

Can someone post the relevant passages of Darth Caedus altering the flow of the Current that resulted in the release of Abeloth? I noticed that Sidious in the prologue of Darth Plagueis muses the following:

Rarely did events play out as imagined, in any case. The order of future events was transient. In the same way that the past was reconfigured by selective memory, future events, too, were moving targets. One could only act on instinct, grab hold of an intuited perfect moment, and spring into action. One heartbeat late and the universe would have recomposed itself, no imposition of will sufficient to forestall the currents. One could only observe and react. Surprise was the element absent from any periodic table. A keystone element; a missing ingredient. The means by which the Force amused itself. A reminder to all sentient beings that some secrets could never be unlocked.

I remember Caedus' feat being discussed a year or so ago. If my recollection is accurate, Caedus did exactly what Sidious thought to be impossible, although I may be completely off. Still, I think it's worth looking into - it may place Caedus above Plagueis and TPM Sidious.

interesting, but you have to remember that Abeloth’s release also came by way of the destruction of centerpoint station.

"So I have trouble seeing why a change in the Current would release Abeloth.”
“Is a river current not in motion?” Thuruht replied, also speaking aloud. “And will it not carry a boat to many different places, depending on how the riders paddle?”
“Yes, that’s true,” Raynar said, with some impatience. “But wherever they land, they do not usually free Abeloth.”
“They do not ever free her, because they have not changed the Current,” Thuruht replied. “They have only ridden it to one of many different destinations. But if they wish to go where the Current cannot carry them, the current must be turned.”
“And to do that, the river itself must be altered,” Raynar finished.
“Yes,” Thuruht replied. “The Force guides the Current. It is impossible to turn the Current without also changing the Force.”
“And that is what frees Abeloth,” Raynar clarified.
“Yes,” Thuruht agreed. “The Force is in the dominion of the Celestials. When their power is usurped, the Bringer of Chaos comes.”
Raynar waited while C-3PO translated the exchange for his companions. He was about to recap his suspicions regarding Jacen when Tekli arrived at the same conclusion.
“Then Jacen freed Abeloth?” she asked.
“Yes.”

Oh damn, this pretty much certifies that the stronger Emperor Krayt was indeed pulling off an imbalance even stronger than that seen before.

I know this feat quite well I'll respond soon.

DarthSkywalker0 wrote:I know this feat quite well I'll respond soon.

I await your commentary with bated breath.

Well fundamentally, you'd have to ask how much of that is actually a comparison of raw power, and what factors were in play other than power.

Caedus had the opportunity of visiting the pool of knowledge and receiving a vision to know that the current wouldn't guide him where he needed to go. Someone like Bane saw a vision of the Galaxy under the rule of his line before he died. Someone like Sidious believed he could simply react properly to ascend to where he wished to be in life. So Caedus actually knew that changing the current was of vital necessity to his goals, whereas other Sith had faith in their ability to succeed without doing so.

Caedus also came across some rather esoteric knowledge on his sojourn that would've likely been well specialized to altering the current, such as learning flow walking from the Aing Tii, or learning about the nature of the whole current thing from the Fallanassi.

At the end of the day, Caedus is just in a fundamentally different circumstance to that which Plagueis and Sidious were in, due to Caedus's sojourn, his knowledge of the specific techniques relating to the current, of past and future, and with the conviction and desperation that this path was the only path to achieve his ends.

I don't think that such a thing serves as an apt comparison of power.

LSDMB wrote:Well fundamentally, you'd have to ask how much of that is actually a comparison of raw power, and what factors were in play other than power.

Caedus had the opportunity of visiting the pool of knowledge and receiving a vision to know that the current wouldn't guide him where he needed to go. Someone like Bane saw a vision of the Galaxy under the rule of his line before he died. Someone like Sidious believed he could simply react properly to ascend to where he wished to be in life. So Caedus actually knew that changing the current was of vital necessity to his goals, whereas other Sith had faith in their ability to succeed without doing so.

Caedus also came across some rather esoteric knowledge on his sojourn that would've likely been well specialized to altering the current, such as learning flow walking from the Aing Tii, or learning about the nature of the whole current thing from the Fallanassi.

At the end of the day, Caedus is just in a fundamentally different circumstance to that which Plagueis and Sidious were in, due to Caedus's sojourn, his knowledge of the specific techniques relating to the current, of past and future, and with the conviction and desperation that this path was the only path to achieve his ends.

I don't think that such a thing serves as an apt comparison of power.

Sure, Sidious and Caedus had disparate philosophies when it came to the attainment of their respective goals, but Sidious also rather clearly states that "no imposition of will [is] sufficient enough to forestall the currents." For him to make such a declarative statement, he would have to have some first-hand experience with or knowledge of it. However, you claim Caedus achieved the feat through a specialized technique as opposed to bending the Current with sheer willpower - can you provide details of this?

Azronger wrote:

LSDMB wrote:Well fundamentally, you'd have to ask how much of that is actually a comparison of raw power, and what factors were in play other than power.

Caedus had the opportunity of visiting the pool of knowledge and receiving a vision to know that the current wouldn't guide him where he needed to go. Someone like Bane saw a vision of the Galaxy under the rule of his line before he died. Someone like Sidious believed he could simply react properly to ascend to where he wished to be in life. So Caedus actually knew that changing the current was of vital necessity to his goals, whereas other Sith had faith in their ability to succeed without doing so.

Caedus also came across some rather esoteric knowledge on his sojourn that would've likely been well specialized to altering the current, such as learning flow walking from the Aing Tii, or learning about the nature of the whole current thing from the Fallanassi.

At the end of the day, Caedus is just in a fundamentally different circumstance to that which Plagueis and Sidious were in, due to Caedus's sojourn, his knowledge of the specific techniques relating to the current, of past and future, and with the conviction and desperation that this path was the only path to achieve his ends.

I don't think that such a thing serves as an apt comparison of power.

Sure, Sidious and Caedus had disparate philosophies when it came to the attainment of their respective goals, but Sidious also rather clearly states that "no imposition of will [is] sufficient enough to forestall the currents." For him to make such a declarative statement, he would have to have some first-hand experience with or knowledge of it. However, you claim Caedus achieved the feat through a specialized technique as opposed to bending the Current with sheer willpower - can you provide details of this?

The changing of the current isn't really explained that well as far as I know. It's just revealed after the fact that Caedus did it. But the Fallanassi are the ones with a familiarity with the current, and the Aing-Tii are the ones that relate to it, so I imagine that would have something to do with it.

Afterall, not even DE Sidious alters the current, so to suggest that Caedus scales off of TPM Sidious is weird.

Like there's not enough information to say that they're working with the same knowledge or the same singleminded motivation to do so, so trying to draw some scaling off of that seems far fetched to me.

Azronger wrote:

LSDMB wrote:Well fundamentally, you'd have to ask how much of that is actually a comparison of raw power, and what factors were in play other than power.

Caedus had the opportunity of visiting the pool of knowledge and receiving a vision to know that the current wouldn't guide him where he needed to go. Someone like Bane saw a vision of the Galaxy under the rule of his line before he died. Someone like Sidious believed he could simply react properly to ascend to where he wished to be in life. So Caedus actually knew that changing the current was of vital necessity to his goals, whereas other Sith had faith in their ability to succeed without doing so.

Caedus also came across some rather esoteric knowledge on his sojourn that would've likely been well specialized to altering the current, such as learning flow walking from the Aing Tii, or learning about the nature of the whole current thing from the Fallanassi.

At the end of the day, Caedus is just in a fundamentally different circumstance to that which Plagueis and Sidious were in, due to Caedus's sojourn, his knowledge of the specific techniques relating to the current, of past and future, and with the conviction and desperation that this path was the only path to achieve his ends.

I don't think that such a thing serves as an apt comparison of power.

Sure, Sidious and Caedus had disparate philosophies when it came to the attainment of their respective goals, but Sidious also rather clearly states that "no imposition of will [is] sufficient enough to forestall the currents." For him to make such a declarative statement, he would have to have some first-hand experience with or knowledge of it. However, you claim Caedus achieved the feat through a specialized technique as opposed to bending the Current with sheer willpower - can you provide details of this?

The only explanation we have for Caedus changing the current is at the end of FOTJ, when Luke faces Krayt, and earlier when Raynar Thul visits the killiks.

Normal flow walkers can change the current if they aren't careful, so I fail to see why I should care that Caedus did it intentionally.

ILS wrote:Normal flow walkers can change the current if they aren't careful, so I fail to see why I should care that Caedus did it intentionally.

Can they? Care to post the relevant excerpts?

Bumping this.

So do we think this actually puts Caedus above TPM Sidious ?