Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Plagueis and Emperor Krayt

August 25th 2019, 8:34 pm

Being subjective in how you interpet them doesn't = dismissal.

August 25th 2019, 8:35 pm

But is also doesn't equate to infallible or absolute Canon.

August 25th 2019, 9:01 pm

Well yeah, but that was always the rule of thumb, wasn't it not?

August 25th 2019, 9:03 pm

Indeed, which is why using it in that manner isn't definitive at all.

August 25th 2019, 9:08 pm

Kun does not, in any way, scale above Krayt.

August 25th 2019, 9:11 pm

Funny how you dismiss that quote so easily.

August 25th 2019, 9:14 pm

It's been debunked about a thousand times yet you cling to it so desperately. Almost as if you care less about the truth and more about doing whatever's necessary to make your favorite characters look good.

August 25th 2019, 9:19 pm

Except the quote was debunked on the basis of it saying 'powers'. Plural. Apparently that doesn't fly anymore since the Malak quote(lmfao).

August 25th 2019, 9:28 pm

...No, the quote was debunked because it is simply cataloguing what happened. Muur's powers outshone Krayt's because ultimately Muur "won" the fight. Never mind the fact that Krayt was at death's door, had been stabbed through the shoulder moments before, still completely negated Muur's attack and the thousand meter fall, and Muur had to combine his power with an equally strong Force user in Morne. Muur technically did win though to argue he's stronger than Krayt isn't supported by literally any source. In fact, a full strength Krayt is objectively exponentially stronger than Muur (even pre-rebirth), something Kun can't claim (though obviously Kun is stronger as well).

Essentially, we have:

Krayt reborn>>FotJ Krayt>>>beginning of Legacy Krayt>>Vector Krayt~Muur+Morne>>Muur

There's no way to scale Kun off Muur+Morne directly, given Kun only scales from Muur himself. Therefore, to compare Krayt and Kun, we have to fall back to a feat comparison/comparing their differing lines of scaling. Something that Krayt absolutely demolishes Kun in, especially since Kun is capped and Krayt is not.

August 25th 2019, 10:23 pm

Nah, I don't buy that:

1.Muur is stated to 'possess powers that outshone both Krayt and Cade, it can't be a mere description of how Muur beat Krayt because that doesn't work at all. It's also supported by the claim from Legacy itself that Krayt might no longer be the most powerful Sith Lord.

2.Muur isn't waging a telepathic war with Celeste Morne, he's literally a spirit attempting to possess her. As is well-known by now, this is almost impossible. It got Tenebrae, Sidious and Bane killed when they attempted such themselves.

3.Kun scales from Ragnos, who scales from Ajunta Pall, who is arguably > Muur given that Muur was his Shadow Hand. So there's a line of scaling that doesn't even include Nadd or Hord's potential scaling from Pall, but that isn't nearly as concrete.

August 25th 2019, 10:48 pm

1. Within the context of the fight itself, it is most definitely accurate. And "might no longer be" is not the most concrete accolade I've ever seen, to say the least.

2. It /is/ a telepathic war. That's exactly what it is: a war of wills. As we also well know, willpower is directly related to Force power. The reason Tenebrae, Sidious, and Bane died is because they lost their battle of wills (whereas Ragnos and Kallig were directly winning theirs). Muur did not lose his, nor did Morne, implying parity.

3. While I don't think Kun scales from Ragnos, Kun is concretely stronger than Muur, there's no doubt about that.

August 25th 2019, 11:26 pm

1.No it isn't. The statement is separate:

Insider 113 wrote:[size=34]On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below.[/size]

That Muur possessed powers that outshone both of them is merely explaining how it happened. Muur defeated them because he was stronger, it doesn't even mention Morne. It's all on Muur.

2.That's not how it works. Per Ant in his debate with Azronger:

DarthAnt66 wrote:[size=34]However, the difficulty of essence transfer is utterly disproportionate to conventional abilities. It’s [/size]“nearly impossible” “to overcome a spirit already residing in a body”[size=34] per the Dark Empire Sourcebook. As to why, the Dark Side Sourcebook explains, [/size]“If you transfer your essence to another body, and the original consciousness asserts control, you are simply forced out, and the original body survives,”[size=34] seemingly regardless of context, meaning the original consciousness has a nigh-insurmountable advantage over the contending consciousness.[/size]

And yes, a spirit transferring his/her essence into a host is exactly what happened between Muur and Morne:

Exar Kun vs Darth Plagueis and Emperor Krayt - Page 2 Screen21

That Muur is able to possess Morne and isn't simply forced out suggests an absolutely massive discrepancy in power there.

3.Kun scales canonically from him via a number of quotes:

Specters of the Past wrote:There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Kun, Exar. Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the rise of the Empire.

Not to mention this one, which still counts in terms of Marka Ragnos:

The Official Star Wars Fact File wrote:The most powerful and dangerous of all Sith Lords, Exar Kun was once the apprentice of the Jedi Master Vodo Siosk-Baas.

August 26th 2019, 12:25 am

I'll counter this more fully later this week when I have time, but real quick, none of those quotes even implies that Kun is > Ragnos. Luke lists Palpatine and Kun as two of the strongest Darksiders he's faced, not as absolutely the two strongest. And Kun's supremacy quotes needn't apply to those who came before him. It can be interpreted that way, but it also could be easily referring to just those Sith who were alive at that time (which is the more logically sound interpretation).

August 26th 2019, 1:19 am

No it can't, because Marka Ragnos was the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith when he crowned Exar Kun:

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:A thousand years later, the spirit of Marka Ragnos and several other Sith Lords appeared before Ulic Qel-Droma and Exar Kun during the Great Sith War. Ragnos, the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith, bestowed the prestigious title upon Kun, while Qel-Droma was chosen to be Kun’s first and foremost apprentice. The ephemeral form of Ragnos emblazoned marks of the Sith on their foreheads.

August 26th 2019, 10:41 am

Huh. Interesting. Also, super cool.

August 26th 2019, 10:57 am

Wow cool post, thanks for sharing

August 26th 2019, 11:04 am

PeraltaEagle45 wrote:Huh. Interesting. Also, super cool.

This is cooler. It effectively says that Freedon Nadd, even at the height of his power, wasn't worthy of the Sith legacy whereas Exar Kun as of dueling Ulic Qel-Droma was:

Exar Kun vs Darth Plagueis and Emperor Krayt - Page 2 Screen24

August 26th 2019, 3:42 pm

No, not that. Ragnos being the reigning Dark Lord as a spirit is badass.

August 28th 2019, 7:23 am

Team 2.

August 28th 2019, 2:39 pm

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Either solos. Mismatch.