Darth Caedus vs Ayla Secura ?

Greysentinel365 wrote:Very disappointed if that was the big growth that has been lauded around. In addition to ^

1. Caedus never shows the ability to command his forces in such a fashion. Despite there being a great many instances where doing so would have been imperative. 

2. You would have to prove this swell outweighs the amp he got from his daughter being in danger.

3. Battle meditation does not scale to other abilities. Bastilla had better BM than Revan. He's going to clown her in a fight though. Even if it did. Oh no Caedus shifted the outcome of a war. He's now Lord Kaan level.

Ziggy wrote:

MasterCilghal wrote: peak Caedus is far, far more powerful than tempest Caedus.

Nah not really. 

I doubt he's even moderately more powerful. Just maybe a little. 

The quote from the "Essential" readers companion is being used facetiously. And what you're implying doesn't well reflect the events in the book which certainly doesn't indicate substantial growth :

Killing didn’t get any easier. He was just getting better at it. But it still didn’t make sense. He rubbed his cheek, and the stubble rasped audibly under his fingers. Mara hadn’t been the most precious thing in his life. In recent weeks, she’d changed from being his only friend to just someone else who didn’t trust him and was getting in his way.

She was his aunt. She was family. When his role in her death became known—it had to be when, but not now, not anytime soon—the shock and hatred would tear apart what was left of the Skywalker and Solo families. Maybe even Niathal, and all the others who understood that securing peace was a dirty business, would be disgusted. I just killed my aunt. I grew up with her. She was there for me. We fought a war together. I have to face her son. I have to face Ben. What have I done?

His stomach rumbled. How could he possibly be hungry at a time like this? 

He will immortalise his love.

Stupid knotted tassels, all kinds of ancient Sith prophecies that would come to pass when the new Dark Lord was ready to take up his mantle and usher in a golden age of justice, order, and peace. The key had been turned—and this was what the prophecy was supposed to mean—by Jacen killing what he most loved. He’d killed Mara, and Nelani, and Fett’s daughter, and chaotic unjust democracy, and he loved none of those. He’d tried to kill Lumiya more than once. She seemed to think that was part of the job description for Sith acolytes.

So Jacen didn’t believe it. And if Mara hadn’t been trying to kill him to begin with, he would have seen it even more as a life thrown carelessly away.

The fabric of existence didn’t seem to have changed enough. That shift should have been cataclysmic, and although he was too much of a pragmatist to think he could raise his fists to the sky and call down lightning to energise a mighty soul, he expected to be able to taste the spiritual and existential transformation.”

He was afraid. However certain he’d been a few hours ago that Mara was to be the one destined to die, it didn’t make sense in the context of the prophecy. He didn’t feel different, either. Did that mean he still had to kill someone else? He’d been so certain it would all be over now. The sense of anticlimax was almost enough to make him sob.

Then he felt a presence. He leaned his head against the side of the cockpit canopy, and gazing up at him from the nightmarish planet surrounding his fighter was Lumiya. Jacen popped the seal. “I’m surprised you could be bothered to come and find me, after what happened.” “You now need to be seen.” Lumiya had a new serenity about her. As ever, she still seemed to take no offense at him for trying to kill her again. “Your new existence has started, Dark Lord.” “Really?” The pain in his shoulder gnawed at him like an animal tearing his flesh.“I don’t feel very lordly.”

“I assure you it’s done. I felt it.”

She might have been humoring him. He shifted in his seat to ease the assortment of bruises. " I'll be looking for further proof.” “Stop arguing with the Force and pay attention to what you have to do next.

- Sacrfice LOTF

Compare that with an actual power transformation brought upon killing a loved one : 

Thinking of Eleena blew oxygen on the embers of his anger. In life, Eleena had been his weakness, a tool to be exploited by rivals. In death, she had become his strength, her memory the lens of his rage.
He resided in the calm eye of a storm of hate. Power churned around him, within him. He did not feel as if he were drawing on the Force, using it. He felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it.
He had evolved. Nothing split his loyalties any longer.

- Malgus : Decieved 

So I doubt there was a huge increase and doesn't prevent him from further comparisons to Aurra. Certainly, as Aurra isn't in her prime in Tempest. And Ayla is more powerful than that still. So the match-up here stands.  

As for his battle meditation, it's not anywhere near the point where he has the entire military unit under his thumb as Palpatine did. But rather he uses it to influence the outcome of separate battles as they happen in the same way Bastilla Shan could.  For two, Battle Meditation doesn't reliably scale with combat power.

"She was his aunt. She was family. When his role in her death became known—it had to be when, but not now, not anytime soon—the shock and hatred would tear apart what was left of the Skywalker and Solo families. Maybe even Niathal, and all the others who understood that securing peace was a dirty business, would be disgusted. I just killed my aunt. I grew up with her. She was there for me. We fought a war together. I have to face her son. I have to face Ben. What have I done?"

"I have to face her son. I have to face Ben. What have I done?"

It's true. Lumiya was right. Oh, this is exquisite. I was blind before. How did I ever think I could succeed as a commander without this?

Lumiya had promised him a battlefield awareness and judgment that made ordinary battle meditation look like a finger painting-to sense and coordinate by the power of his mind and will alone, a power that only came to fruition in the Master of the Sith.

It's me. It really is. It was Mara's sacrifice after all, I accept that now.

But I still don't understand the prophecy. And I don't like what I can't understand.

He was a Sith Lord. Now his work could truly begin.

Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice

Ziggy wrote:The contentions Grey & I have laid out have yet to be answered. 

He gained power from starting to act like a Sith; as opposed to a Jedi and is now using the Darkside. 

I see it now. I know what I loved most and what had to be killed.
 
Jacen had laid on his bunk for hours, trying to slot the last piece into the puzzle that tormented him. It was the prophecy. It didn't fit.
 
He will immortalize his love.
 
It was only when Jacen considered that he might not refer to himself that he started down a complex path that showed the prophecy in its multifaceted complexity. It didn't just have one meaning: it had many.
 
And this is why I'm now Lord of the Sith.
 
There'd been no pyrotechnics, and no cataclysmic shift in the Force; and yet, from where he stood now, Jacen looked back and saw a landscape that had changed utterly. It had changed footstep by footstep, act by act, death by death, a change so gradual and incremental that he hardly noticed its passage until-
 
Until now.
 
He wasn't the same Jacen Solo who was shocked when Lumiya had told him he was destined to be a Sith Lord.


- LotF Sacrifice 

And even then he didn’t even use his full night during the fight so it’s irrelevant anyway.

Jacen spoke the word with his mind instead of his mouth. At the same time, he was expanding his Force presence into Sing's mind, opening himself fully to the Force and using its power to push himself deeper into her mind, to crush her own presence and force it deep down into the bottom of her being.

- LotF Tempest

Greysentinel365 wrote:

And even then he didn’t even use his full night during the fight so it’s irrelevant anyway.

Hi. It's reality knocking

Jacen spoke the word with his mind instead of his mouth. At the same time, he was expanding his Force presence into Sing's mind, opening himself fully to the Force and using its power to push himself deeper into her mind, to crush her own presence and force it deep down into the bottom of her being.

- LotF Tempest

tempest wrote:Jacen did not give her that chance. He opened himself fully to his fear and anger, using the power of his emotions to bring the Force flooding into him, and his body began to crackle and burn with dark energy. He raised his arms in Sing's direction, hands held level and fingers splayed wide.
That was when the door to the refresher hissed open, and a pair of small gray eyes peered out. They were wide open and locked on Jacen with an expression that might have been awe or fear or both.
"No, Allana!" Jacen could not bring himself to release the Force lightning while she was watching; even if Tenel Ka had not yet taught her that the dark side was evil, his own childhood training remained strongly enough ingrained that he did not want his daughter to see him using it. "Close the ..."

Greysentinel365 wrote:Lol all you posted was Caedus about to use lightning. Lightning specifically. That does not preclude him using his full power beforehand. Which he definitively does.

 it specifically states he wasn’t  using the dark side, which in this case  

LotF Tempest wrote:Wait.
 
Jacen spoke the word with his mind instead of his mouth. At the same time, he was expanding his Force presence into Sing's mind, opening himself fully to the Force and using its power to push himself deeper into her mind, to crush her own presence and force it deep down into the bottom of her being.
 
"Wait," he repeated.
 
Sing fought back, trying to push him from her mind, but Jacen had taken her by surprise. He had the power of his anger and his fear and his hatred behind him, and she simply was not strong enough.
 
.....
 
Sing stood with her back to Jacen, about five paces beyond the droid, on the other side of a smoldering couch. In one hand, she held her still-ignited fightsaber. In the other was a class-C thermal detonator with a disintegration radius large enough to kill herself, Jacen, Allana, and probably half the personnel on the decks directly above and below.
 
As Jacen started toward her, she looked over her shoulder with an expression in her pale eyes that seemed equal parts hatred and awe.
 
"Don't ever touch me like that again."
 
Jacen did not reply. Sing was still struggling to free herself of his domination, and all his concentration was focused on keeping the pressure on until he drew close enough to strike.
 
Sing flashed him a cold smile. "But then, I don't think you'll have the chance."
 
Her thumb twitched.
 
The activation light on the thermal detonator began to blink, and that was enough to shatter Jacen's concentration. 

Regardless, This debate is pointless. Even if the Aurra fight were as you say, a simple comparison of other feats would be enough to place him far above Aayla. 

Greysentinel365 wrote:So let's take stock.

Jacen opens himself fully to the Dark Side. Drawing on his fear for Allana, anger and hate. He is at full power. This is inarguable.

Despite taking Sing by surprise it is still taking all his concentration to hold her in place. He cannot ragdoll her or blast her or anything of the like. He has to slowly approach with his full power holding her down to strike.

Even then Sing breaks out of his hold and triggers the detonator. The text then notes that even the tiniest flash of the detonator is enough to shatter Caedus' concentration.

Caedus absolutely did use his full power + an emotional amp + the element of surprise on Aurra. Even then it took all he had to hold her he couldn't attack her and she broke free. And yes she did break free hence the smile and being able to trigger the detonator despite Jacens command. The distraction is not what freed her 

Greysentinel365 wrote:A feats comparison is moot when we have an example of direct contention. Of Aurra breaking out of Jacen's full power despite poor circumstances against he

Jacen was still concentrating on keeping the pressure on her mind when the detonator exploded so I don’t see how she could have freed herself from his domination. If I understand correctly, he wasn’t freezing her in place physically but merely mentally. 

him drawing on his anger is something that would come into play in any fight (given he’s a Sith Lord),
 And I’m not sure how relevant the emotional amp you are mentioning is. It’s unquantifiable and therefore unimportant. 

Well remember that, regardless of the circumstances of the Aurra fight, outliers do exist. By this same token, I could argue Viun Galaan or Lumiya are comparable to Luke Skywalker. Caedus has vastly superior feats, hype and accolades than Aayla and a single instance that kinda ( Caedus is still decisively superior to Aurra, that’s unquestionable) proves otherwise doesn’t convince me at all. 

Plus this is tempest Caedus.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Jacen one shots.

"We haven't." Luke watched Korelei pause in the duct. Perhaps sensing the blaster in his hand, she waved several of her followers ahead of her. "She's the first Sith who actually worries me."

- Apocalypse 

Greysentinel365 wrote:Outliers are something that is not the norm. Viun only fights Luke once and he laughs at him. Lumiya has only fought Luke early on and when he's an emotional wreck from Mara. In order to prove the Aurra fight is an outlier you'll have to post something to prove this. I know Caedus fans have trouble with this

Greysentinel365 wrote:The passage makes clear that it wasn't a big growth or a climactic shift. it's been constant and incremental (denoting a small positive or negative change in a variable quantity or function.) and only now is Jacen even noticing it (it was that small).

And so with this final act, Jacen has incrementally had his power swell (which by definition does not denote a large increase. Just an increase) to just inch him over the line the get his Lord Kaan level BM.