Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

Same starting positions as vs. Sidious

Dooku.

Not sure how Dooku would perform against these two characters with immense physical strength. Although the team is inferior to Anakin and Obi-Wan, their fighting style is more offensive than the Jedi duo which may cause Dooku to struggle. Unless Dooku puts Savage down ASAP unlike he did in his duel with Ventress, he may lose this. Not sure about to outcome and will be waiting for arguements.

It's not an easy fight, that's for sure.

Brothers obviously. Stamina is the key issue here. If Dooku can get "exhausted" from just fighting already tired AotC Kenobi and Anakin individually, he's going to gas out quicker against these two.

Outcast wrote:It's not an easy fight, that's for sure.

indeed it is. Though Dooku should win in 1v1 against both solidly.

A less powerful Savage and a less powerful partner in every way (Ventress) were on the verge of beating Dooku. Savage learned from that fight. Dooku gets crushed here.

Honestly not sure on the Count vs Maul thing. Some are of the opinion that he is significantly better than Maul but others think that Maul is only slightly inferior. There is a good base of evidence to prove either assertion( though if we look by chronology, the latter is more favorable), like, if Dooku basically is close to Yoda then it is more likely that he is significantly superior to Maul.

But I am not convinced by that fully yet. Sure yeah, it looks more and more favorable for the Count but here are my current thoughts on the matter:

If we are talking about intent, I don't think Sidious choking Dooku for almost 10 complete seconds from across the galaxy without any strain makes for very high intent on Dooku. Lucas has also stated that KFV is as powerful as Sidious meaning, noticeably more powerful than the Anakin that beat Dooku in 12 seconds in the movie. Couple that with Anakin still being a tier 8 yet almost overwhelming Dooku outright in the novel, all in all, Dooku being close to or even loosely close to Yoda or Sidious is not really reflected in the material at least as of ROTS (dueling Sidious is a "very different experience" to dueling Dooku etc.) tbh. To me it seems like Lucas highly emphasizes his villains and with each new movie, completely forgets about the previous villain or turns them into a joke. You then have a string of novels where Dooku looks at Sidious as some kind of god and not only is completely subservient and in fear of him as though he might end his life at any time if he so much as gestures( I recall in one of the novels, Dooku flinches at a mere "sting" of the dark side from Sidious across the galaxy through hologram), gets his augmentation stripped away by Sidious in Y:DR etc.

This is a consistent pattern, you see it in TPM with Jinn being "the most skilled" of the PT warriors and "the best swordsman Obi Wan had ever" been capable to see in the novel to hype Maul up( yeah Lucas might not have anything to do with the Prima Guide but the idea of Jinn being the best is cearly reflected in Yoda viewing him the best in 400 years and Obi Wan thinking he is the best in the novel) but then Maul goes and Lucas retcons Jinn's standing to make way for Dooku, Mace, Yoda and later, Anakin and Obi Wan in ROTS and based on everything I have seen in ROTS and later on, the Clone Wars, he does exactly that to Dooku(I recall a quote by ILS that states that Yoda only went all out completely against Sidious in the movies not previously like he did to Jinn and Maul( and Vader earlier on) before. I mean, the movie is obviously meant to show that Dooku cannot be stomped by Yoda or anything but come ROTS it appears that he has been shunted aside for Sidious and going a bit deeper than intent, the raw facts show that too.

I mean, I am open to being convinced but I have not bought into that hype yet

It is still possible for him to win, even by being only slightly superior to Maul, but I might lean on the team. Or it could be basically favorable to either

LOTL wrote:Honestly not sure on the Count vs Maul thing. Some are of the opinion that he is significantly better than Maul but others think that Maul is only slightly inferior. There is a good base of evidence to prove either assertion( though if we look by chronology, the latter is more favorable), like, if Dooku basically is close to Yoda then it is more likely that he is significantly superior to Maul.

But I am not convinced by that fully yet. Sure yeah, it looks more and more favorable for the Count but here are my current thoughts on the matter:

If we are talking about intent, I don't think Sidious choking Dooku for almost 10 complete seconds from across the galaxy without any strain makes for very high intent on Dooku. Lucas has also stated that KFV is as powerful as Sidious meaning, noticeably more powerful than the Anakin that beat Dooku in 12 seconds in the movie. Couple that with Anakin still being a tier 8 yet almost overwhelming Dooku outright in the novel, all in all, Dooku being close to or even loosely close to Yoda or Sidious is not really reflected in the material at least as of ROTS (dueling Sidious is a "very different experience" to dueling Dooku etc.) tbh. To me it seems like Lucas highly emphasizes his villains and with each new movie, completely forgets about the previous villain or turns them into a joke. You then have a string of novels where Dooku looks at Sidious as some kind of god and not only is completely subservient and in fear of him as though he might end his life at any time if he so much as gestures( I recall in one of the novels, Dooku flinches at a mere "sting" of the dark side from Sidious across the galaxy through hologram), gets his augmentation stripped away by Sidious in Y:DR etc.

This is a consistent pattern, you see it in TPM with Jinn being "the most skilled" of the PT warriors and "the best swordsman Obi Wan had ever" been capable to see in the novel to hype Maul up( yeah Lucas might not have anything to do with the Prima Guide but the idea of Jinn being the best is cearly reflected in Yoda viewing him the best in 400 years and Obi Wan thinking he is the best in the novel) but then Maul goes and Lucas retcons Jinn's standing to make way for Dooku, Mace, Yoda and later, Anakin and Obi Wan in ROTS and based on everything I have seen in ROTS and later on, the Clone Wars, he does exactly that to Dooku(I recall a quote by ILS that states that Yoda only went all out completely against Sidious in the movies not previously like he did to Jinn and Maul( and Vader earlier on) before. I mean, the movie is obviously meant to show that Dooku cannot be stomped by Yoda or anything but come ROTS it appears that he has been shunted aside for Sidious and going a bit deeper than intent, the raw facts show that too.

I mean, I am open to being convinced but I have not bought into that hype yet

It is still possible for him to win, even by being only slightly superior to Maul, but I might lean on the team. Or it could be basically favorable to either

Good post

It occurs to me that people are usually much more willing to use comparisons that favor Dooku and eschew those which clearly favor Maul. Example: performances against Kenobi will always be brought up, and the Yoda fight from AotC (rather than from DR).

Yet, were I to bring up Dooku's performances against Savage Opress, his near-death experience vs Opress and Ventress, his one sided fight with an overly sympathetic Yoda on the dark side nexus of Vjun, his losses to TCW Anakin and Vos - all of these would be omitted with the usual "X is just better than Maul" or "styles make fights". Excuses which obviously disappear the moment we're talking about Obi-Wan (who Dooku has a fairly substantial stylistic edge over) and Yoda/Sheev. I could easily say that Maul's manhandling of Savage, and his outright losses to Vos (a mere Dark Jedi) and Anakin (who wasn't really above Obi-Wan in any noticeable way at this point) paint a different picture.

Dooku might be somewhat better than Maul overall or if they fought one another, but an honest appraisal shows that they're actually very close. In all of these situations, different fighting styles and circumstances make a big difference, which explains why Maul and Dooku perform differently in different situations.

If we go with a canon-centric view, then Maul performs very admirably against Sheev, breaches his defence and only loses due to the duel becoming a contest of sheer strength, which Maul obviously can't win - opposed to Dooku's more protracted duel with Yoda where he accomplished less but lasted longer. You also need to deal with Dooku barely scraping a victory/escape from Savage and Ventress. Maul has already stomped Savage, and Sheev has stomped Maul and Savage combined, so this comparison would very much suggest Dooku is closer to Maul than he is Sheev.

If we go with a legends-centric view, then in Shadow Conspiracy, it's noted that Sidious has to "pounce" on a slight gap in Maul's defence just to TK him, was "actually trying to kill him", and was going all out on Maul to the point Maul thought he was perceiving countless lightsaber blades. You are then also forced to face Dooku losing very clearly to Yoda on Vjun, where Dooku was amped so much he was noticeably more powerful than Mace Windu where before they were roughly equal, and Yoda was weakened by the same amount. Meaning, in terms of an edge for Dooku, it was double the amount needed to be clearly superior to Mace Windu, a tier 8 fighter. And Yoda was very, very sympathetic to Dooku leading up to and during the fight. Yet, there was little difference to their fight in AotC, which leads me to believe Yoda only ever cut loose against Sidious. While I'm not sure how to gauge exactly how much Sidious put into his fight with Maul, going by Maul's testimony, he believed Sheev was trying to kill him, even though they had spent decades sparring, during which spars Sheev was always willing to kill Maul if he didn't perform.

I'd go with Dooku being slightly superior, and him getting crushed if Savage is there to help Maul.

Dooku wins.

Dooku.

Dui handily.

Dooku wins, but it is difficult to say how close it is. I mean, Maul alone can put up a decent fight, however I think Savage is more hurtful than helpful, especially considering that Dooku is a master at make them get in each other’s way.

Sidious wasn't able to make them get in each other's way. He had to split them up by "pouncing" on a small gap in Maul's defence that only someone on Sheev's level would have been good enough to exploit. His blast was also strong enough to daze Maul.

I see little evidence Dooku can do as well or better than Sheev, which is the requirement for your statements to be true.

ILS wrote:Sidious wasn't able to make them get in each other's way. He had to split them up by "pouncing" on a small gap in Maul's defence that only someone on Sheev's level would have been good enough to exploit. His blast was also strong enough to daze Maul.

I see little evidence Dooku can do as well or better than Sheev, which is the requirement for your statements to be true.

Fair point

Dooku

Brothers win

The favourable comparison for Dooku would be on the Invisible-hand, where he quickly dispatches Kenobi through the force to single out Anakin.  Maul can't replicate Zonakin's performance and this duo is better than the Zabrak brothers in a general sense. 

The less favourable comparison would be against Ventress and Savage himself.  He couldn't fence both of them at once and had to apply constant pressure to keep the latter at bay.  Savage is stronger in this thread and has a better partner.

For a Dooku victory, he'd have to take one of the brothers out with the force instantly and duel the other as he did with Ani/Obi Wan.  Yet despite Obi Wan's impressive resilience, he pales in comparison to the punishment Team Zabrak can take before crumbling.  They overwhelm him after a minute of fighting.

If Dooku exploits his edge in the Force, he wins in an amazing fight. If not, he goes down. Savage is a lot stronger by this point than he was the first time they fought and has also been trained by Maul. If you also acknowledge elements of the deleted scenes, he's also been able to actually block lightning with his lightsaber. 

Dooku has the edge in the Force, skill and speed departments but the brothers are just so much stronger. He can't take them both on without using TK or lightning.

maul has still had his barrier broken by kenobi (the only time kenobi has ever initiated a force attack with a force user) so would likely get ragdolled by dooku if the count opted to tk maul.

Maul gets his barrier broken because his use of Juyo leaves him vulnerable to Force based attacks - that’s not sufficient proof that Dooku can just rag doll him.

Legends Dooku wins this in a good fight

MasterofIllusions wrote:maul has still had his barrier broken by kenobi (the only time kenobi has ever initiated a force attack with a force user) so would likely get ragdolled by dooku if the count opted to tk maul.

Is this Kbro?

Duo handily.