Darth Malak (Star Forge) vs Darth Traya (Malachor V)

It's literally stated to be magnitudes beyond the guilt and horror, called a 'planet's worth of pain' which left Visas Marr in awe at the fact she could even go about her life when her spirit is 'a shell' feeling as if life and the Force itself had betrayed her. This is stated to have had massive effects on her mental state and is specifically stated and referenced in the novel. Drew Karpyshyn's 'opinion' is that he purposefully left it and the effects of the nexus vague enough to be debated by readers, as he intimated to me in an email years ago. In other words, he wrote an open-ended novel.

You need to explain to me why Meetra would be immediately unaffected by Nathema when far less severe trauma had scarred her mentally for over a decade and was specifically stated to have hindered her both in terms of power and mentally. Lord Scourge in the game states that he observed she was better off when with Revan again, hence her immense uptick in showings against the Imperial Guard and the Sith Emperor after the fact:

Lord Scourge wrote:"The Exile was harder to read. Even with all she had done, she never trusted herself. With Revan, she was his student again."

Which perfectly complements what is stated here when she was with Revan again:

SWTOR: Revan wrote:[size=41]Meetra had gone into what he liked to call her warrior's trance; she sat still and straight, her eyes focused on nothing as she stared straight ahead.[/size]
[size=41]He had seen it many times during the war against the Mandolarians. Before each major battle she would try to center her emotions, cleansing herself of all fear and hatred lest the imminent heat of battle draw her towards the dark side.  [/size][size=41]She believed she could transform herself into a perfect conduit for the Force, an incorruptible weapon of light.[/size]

She is doing much better after that point, and this makes sense. Because if the Exile was really so beneath Nyriss then Revan wouldn't be thinking this:

SWTOR: Revan wrote:[size=31]In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor?[/size]

[size=31]Alone, probably not. With the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and even T3, however, he believed they stood a real chance of victory.[/size]

Nor would the Emperor be doing this, rather than insta-snapping her neck on the spot:

SWTOR: Revan wrote:Meetra was still rushing forward, using the Force to return her lightsaber to her waiting hand. Sensing hesitation and uncertainty in the Emperor as he tried to evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of his new foe, Scourge rushed forward to join Meetra and Revan.

And he had good reason to be hesitant and uncertain because she managed to throw her lightsaber at him faster than he could finish swinging Revan's to kill Revan:

Revan wrote:In desperation, she hurled her lightsaber with a wild sidearm throw, guiding it with the Force so that it spiraled end-over-end to intercept the descending blade, knocking it from the Emperor's grasp and sending it skittering across the floor.

LadyKulvax wrote:It's literally stated to be magnitudes beyond the guilt and horror, called a 'planet's worth of pain' which left Visas Marr in awe at the fact she could even go about her life when her spirit is 'a shell' feeling as if life and the Force itself had betrayed her. This is stated to have had massive effects on her mental state and is specifically stated and referenced in the novel. Drew Karpyshyn's 'opinion' is that he purposefully left it and the effects of the nexus vague enough to be debated by readers, as he intimated to me in an email years ago. In other words, he wrote an open-ended novel.

You need to explain to me why Meetra would be immediately unaffected by Nathema when far less severe trauma had scarred her mentally for over a decade and was specifically stated to have hindered her both in terms of power and mentally. Lord Scourge in the game states that he observed she was better off when with Revan again, hence her immense uptick in showings against the Imperial Guard and the Sith Emperor after the fact:

Lord Scourge wrote:"The Exile was harder to read. Even with all she had done, she never trusted herself. With Revan, she was his student again."

Which perfectly complements what is stated here when she was with Revan again:

SWTOR: Revan wrote:[size=41]Meetra had gone into what he liked to call her warrior's trance; she sat still and straight, her eyes focused on nothing as she stared straight ahead.[/size]
[size=41]He had seen it many times during the war against the Mandolarians. Before each major battle she would try to center her emotions, cleansing herself of all fear and hatred lest the imminent heat of battle draw her towards the dark side.  [/size][size=41]She believed she could transform herself into a perfect conduit for the Force, an incorruptible weapon of light.[/size]

She is doing much better after that point, and this makes sense. Because if the Exile was really so beneath Nyriss then Revan wouldn't be thinking this:

SWTOR: Revan wrote:[size=37]In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor?[/size]

[size=37]Alone, probably not. With the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and even T3, however, he believed they stood a real chance of victory.[/size]

Nor would the Emperor be doing this, rather than insta-snapping her neck on the spot:

SWTOR: Revan wrote:Meetra was still rushing forward, using the Force to return her lightsaber to her waiting hand. Sensing hesitation and uncertainty in the Emperor as he tried to evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of his new foe, Scourge rushed forward to join Meetra and Revan.

And he had good reason to be hesitant and uncertain because she managed to throw her lightsaber at him faster than he could finish swinging Revan's to kill Revan:

Revan wrote:In desperation, she hurled her lightsaber with a wild sidearm throw, guiding it with the Force so that it spiraled end-over-end to intercept the descending blade, knocking it from the Emperor's grasp and sending it skittering across the floor.

There is not a single line in the novel once Meetra is on Dromund Kaas that either explicitly or implicitly states Meetra was still suffering from the effects of Nathema. There is however a line that explicitly states that the DS nexus of Dromund Kaas hindered her ability to connect to the force.


"She had opened herself up to
the Force, looking for guidance and wisdom, but here on Dromund Kaas, where
the dark side prevailed, it was difficult to find the inner tranquillity necessary for
enlightenment."


The fact that there is explicit evidence for the Dromund Kaas's nexus hindering her but not even implicit evidence for Nathema hindering Meetra after she left it means that it is likely the email you got was a post hoc rationalization. Even if its not he left the question open to debate. Meaning your theory is not undisputed fact. Therefore we must debate this with what little information we have. And all of the information in the novel supports my stance. Not only is their zero evidence in the novel Meetra continued to experience negative effects after she left Nathema, there is zero evidence anyone who visited it experienced long term effects. It's never stated that Nyriss or Scourge experienced long term effects from visiting Nathema. So the idea that Meetra experienced long term effects from Nathema has no actual evidence behind it. You also claim that Nathema caused greater trauma to Meetra than the cataclysm at Malachor V. However this isn't the case.

"She had visited Malachor V years after the cataclysm of the mass-shadow
generator. Traversing its surface had been agony. Mentally, she had still sensed
the anguish of all who had lost their lives there. Physically, the intense gravity of
the world had held her in its crushing grip, leaving her gasping for breath. It had
been the most awful and horrific experience of her life … until now."


She is saying that her experience on Nathema was worse than when she revisited Malachor V to face Traya. She is not saying that her experience on Nathema was worse than the cataclysm at Malachor V. This makes sense because she cut herself off from the force so that she wouldn't feel anything. So your theory that Meetra was hindered by Nathema even after she left it has no evidence supporting it.

How are you even capable of reading that quote and not grasping the fact that the same quote is stating that her return to Malachor V was more 'awful and horrific' than her first? It literally states that attacking the Trayus Academy was the most 'awful and horrific experience of her life. Ergo, worse than the MSG detonation. Then it says 'until now' putting Nathema above even that. Like what are you reading?

LadyKulvax wrote:How are you even capable of reading that quote and not grasping the fact that the same quote is stating that her return to Malachor V was more 'awful and horrific' than her first? It literally states that attacking the Trayus Academy was the most 'awful and horrific experience of her life. Ergo, worse than the MSG detonation. Then it says 'until now' putting Nathema above even that. Like what are you reading?

She cut herself off from the force in order to prevent herself from feeling anything. In her return she did not cut herself off from the force so she actually felt the effects of Malachor. She felt nothing in her first visit or at least cut herself off before she felt the brunt of the effects.

Have you played KOTOR 2? Because everything you just said is wrong:

Moza & Chodo Habat, KotOR 2 wrote:[size=41]"[/size][size=41]Forgive me, Chodo, but the human - I could feel her suffering. I did not feel it until she stood before us, but then it filled my senses. Have you ever felt such an intensity before?"[/size]

[size=41]"[/size][size=41]Only once before. The day I came to Telos and strode upon its ashen surface. It is a planet's worth of pain.[/size][size=41]"[/size]

[size=41]"[/size][size=41]I do not know how she endures.[/size][size=41]"[/size]

[size=41]"[/size][size=41]It is because she has no choice. Perhaps in helping to heal a planet, it will help her become whole again."[/size]

Visas Marr, KotOR 2 wrote:[size=42]"[/size][size=42]I wish to learn how it is she still walks when her spirit is nothing more than a shell... when you feel as though the Force, as if life itself, has abandoned you.[/size][size=42]"[/size]

Atris, SWTOR: Revan wrote:[size=32]“[/size][size=31]Meetra was much closer to the mass-shadow generator than you were. She felt the shock wave; it nearly killed her. Left her vulnerable. At the same time, she felt the deaths of the Mandalorians and her fellow soldiers through the Force. It was all too much to bear in her weakened state. It would have killed her.[/size][size=32]” She paused for emphasis, before continuing. “[/size][size=31]Instinctively, she protected herself the only way she knew how. She cut herself off from the Force … permanently.[/size][size=32]”[/size]

She cut herself off from the Force because she would've died. That doesn't mean she didn't carry the trauma of the MSG, like what? The quote even says:

SWTOR: Revan wrote:Mentally, she had still sensed the anguish of all who had lost their lives there. 

It's even said in both the game and the novel that she has to overcome it to win in the Trayus Academy:

Kreia, KotOR 2 wrote:[size=31]"[/size][size=31]Now we shall see if you can overcome the weight of Malachor and silence the echoes that beat from its heart.[/size][size=31]"[/size]

SWTOR: Revan wrote:Meetra had been close enough to feel the shock wave; to survive it she had cut herself off from the Force, shielding her psyche against the horrors of what she had unleashed. Many years had passed before she regained her connection to the Force, but in the end, surviving the trauma of Malachor V had given her the strength to defeat Darth Traya and her followers.

LadyKulvax wrote:Have you played KOTOR 2? Because everything you just said is wrong:

Moza & Chodo Habat, KotOR 2 wrote:[size=41]"[/size][size=41]Forgive me, Chodo, but the human - I could feel her suffering. I did not feel it until she stood before us, but then it filled my senses. Have you ever felt such an intensity before?"[/size]

[size=41]"[/size][size=41]Only once before. The day I came to Telos and strode upon its ashen surface. It is a planet's worth of pain.[/size][size=41]"[/size]

[size=41]"[/size][size=41]I do not know how she endures.[/size][size=41]"[/size]

[size=41]"[/size][size=41]It is because she has no choice. Perhaps in helping to heal a planet, it will help her become whole again."[/size]

Visas Marr, KotOR 2 wrote:[size=42]"[/size][size=42]I wish to learn how it is she still walks when her spirit is nothing more than a shell... when you feel as though the Force, as if life itself, has abandoned you.[/size][size=42]"[/size]

Atris, SWTOR: Revan wrote:[size=32]“[/size][size=35]Meetra was much closer to the mass-shadow generator than you were. She felt the shock wave; it nearly killed her. Left her vulnerable. At the same time, she felt the deaths of the Mandalorians and her fellow soldiers through the Force. It was all too much to bear in her weakened state. It would have killed her.[/size][size=32]” She paused for emphasis, before continuing. “[/size][size=35]Instinctively, she protected herself the only way she knew how. She cut herself off from the Force … permanently.[/size][size=32]”[/size]

She cut herself off from the Force because she would've died. That doesn't mean she didn't carry the trauma of the MSG, like what? The quote even says:

SWTOR: Revan wrote:Mentally, she had still sensed the anguish of all who had lost their lives there. 

It's even said in both the game and the novel that she has to overcome it to win in the Trayus Academy:

Kreia, KotOR 2 wrote:[size=35]"[/size][size=35]Now we shall see if you can overcome the weight of Malachor and silence the echoes that beat from its heart.[/size][size=35]"[/size]

SWTOR: Revan wrote:Meetra had been close enough to feel the shock wave; to survive it she had cut herself off from the Force, shielding her psyche against the horrors of what she had unleashed. Many years had passed before she regained her connection to the Force, but in the end, surviving the trauma of Malachor V had given her the strength to defeat Darth Traya and her followers.

Lol I've played kotor 2 but my bad if i forget the conversations i had with npcs-conversations I can't just quickly re read like a book. But anyways let's think about this logically. Even if we work under the assumption that her experience on Nathema was worse than her first trip to Malachor, that still fails to prove it would have any lasting effects on her. Her first trip to Malachor would have killed her if she hadn't cut herself off from the force. But as proven upon her return to Malachor the planet's potency no longer affects her in such a way. So its illogical to assume that Nathema would have lasting effects on her just because its stronger than Malachor when Malachor itself no longer has lasting effects on her. Such a conclusion would require evidence that you don't have.

That's not the point. We're referring to the trauma suffered by her psyché, not the literal fatal potential of the MSG. Malachor V was incredibly traumatic for her, she's literally suffering numerous psychological issues that she has to overcome when she returns and it is even worse than before. On Nathema, it is stated that she is literally being driven insane by the planet, not merely traumatised. She feels the literal void of annihilation trying to tear her into subatomic particles and she has to will herself to continue on.

There's even a reference to Meetra's horror later in the book:

SWTOR: Revan wrote:"Nathema was just the beginning," Scourge agreed. "He will destroy world after world, his power and madness growing in concert until he alone is left, Emperor over an empty and lifeless galaxy."
Meetra stared at the two in horror.

All this quote proves is that Meetra was terrified at the thought of Vitiate doing to the whole galaxy what he did to Nathama. A prospect that would terrify anyone who values life. Do you think someone like Yoda who isn't suffering from mental trauma wouldn't look in horror at someone telling him a sith lord is planning to strip the galaxy of all life. So there is still zero evidence Meetra was suffering from mental trauma on Dromund Kaas and there is also zero evidence she was being hindered by said trauma.

You're literally handwaving the fact that far less severe trauma continued to mentally torture her for a decade after. You just don't want to buy that she was hindered against Nyriss when we have every indication we need to say that she was suffering numerous, serious problems throughout the novel. Trauma is literally her main character trait. A less potent Nathema turned Vaylin insane permanently. Valkorion actively protected the Outlander and the accompanying party from the worst effects of the void and yet they still continued to suffer throughout their stay despite that.

I've presented a perfectly plausible argument backed by a velnerable hill of evidence supporting it. You're dismissing it based on the simple fact that Drew didn't linger on it even though I also provided evidence suggesting that he did indeed.

LadyKulvax wrote:So I may as well make the argument here, Darth Revan appears to value Malachor V's power so much that he hides it from Malak, whereas he allows Malak full access to the Star Forge:

Chronicles of the Old Republic wrote:Revan's power continues to grow, and he secretly strengthens his stronghold, hiding it even from his apprentice, DARTH MALAK. Soon, the evil force infecting the planet became the FORGE for Darth Revan's shock troops; the feared SITH ASSASSINS - fallen Jedi, tempted and cajoled by the evil of Malachor V, and under Revan's evil command. Soon, a shadow academy to the one on Korriban is constructed; and an evil enclave mirroring the Jedi academy on Dantooine is complete.

Now this is an implication, admittedly, but there's really no other explanation here. Yet this iteration of Malachor V isn't even as strong as the one in the game, due to the mass slaughter:

Kreia wrote:[size=39]"[/size][size=39]There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface—drowns them in the power of the dark side. It corrupts all life, and it feeds on death.[/size][size=39]"[/size]

So one can make the argument that Malachor V > Star Forge. That's just the first thing, and least consequential.

It takes both Sion and Nihilus to drain Traya:

KotOR Campaign Guide wrote:"Ousting Traya with Sion's help, Nihilus binges on the Force, nearly extinguishing the Jedi forever at Katarr."

KotOR Campaign Guide wrote:They turn on her and drain her Force powers.

This at least indicates that, at the very least, Nihilus can't take out Traya as easily without Sion's help.

But perhaps the most important indicator we have is that Nihilus couldn't kill Sion with an enraged dark Force wave:

KotOR 2 Script wrote:Nihilus turns, dark wave energy exploding from him, blasting Sion back, as supports smash down around him. It would be awesome if Sith soldiers are hurled about by Nihilus' power, or are disintegrated as he attacks Sion. Sion stalks off, disgusted.

[size=34]Yet on Malachor V where Sion is not only far more powerful, but practically invulnerable and unkillable:[/size]

Darth Sion wrote:[size=32]"[/size][size=39]Now you realize the true power of the dark side. As long as the dark places of this world flow through the cracks of my flesh, I cannot be killed.[/size][size=32]"[/size]

Darth Traya casually chokes him out and proves that his strength is as worthless as her severed hand compared to herself:

Darth Traya wrote:[size=32]"[/size][size=39]No, you simply did not learn the lesson I sought to teach - that your strength is as meaningless as the strength of my hand.[/size][size=32]"[/size]

[size=32]
[/size]


[size=32]So what's that about Malak one-shotting where Nihilus couldn't? Lmfao.[/size]

What's happened to the quoting format?

Vailyn is a special case. She stayed there for far far longer than anyone else. Meetra was on the planet far shorter than even her stay on Malachor. So even if Nathema was more potent she was only there for a short period of time relative to her visit to Malachor. And you said Meetra managed to overcome the trauma Malachor caused her. This would also mean that she would no longer experience trauma from force wounds as powerful as Malachor. Due to Meetra's mental growth there is no longer a baseline measurement for a force wound that she can't resist temporarily via willpower. Meaning you cannot extrapolate her experience on Malachor to argue she experienced lasting mental trauma from Nathama. Such a stance is also supported by the fact that no one who visited Nathama for a short period of time experienced lasting mental trauma.

The actual book says you're wrong. She's literally going insane by being exposed to Nathema. Insanity isn't something you shrug off, nor is an inciting event strong enough to cause insanity something you just shrug off. You've backpedalled repeatedly, if all you have is an absence of evidence argument then I think we're done.

LadyKulvax wrote:The actual book says you're wrong. She's literally going insane by being exposed to Nathema. Insanity isn't something you shrug off, nor is an inciting event strong enough to cause insanity something you just shrug off. You've backpedalled repeatedly, if all you have is an absence of evidence argument then I think we're done.

The book says its only a matter of time until her sanity will be stripped away. Meaning she will go insane not that she already is. Which I've never argued against. Of course if she stayed there long enough she would go insane, I'm arguing that since she only stayed there a brief period of time she didn't experience any lasting mental trauma. This is the same principle as humans and isolation. Eventually if we are isolated from all forms of mental stimulation we will go insane. However if we are only in isolation for a brief period of time, minor damage to our psyche like beginning to talk to ourselves will quickly recede. Your argument that Meetra was suffering mentally from Malachor before she defeated Traya is supported with evidence which is why I'm not refuting that portion of your argument. There is however zero evidence that any damage she received to her psyche from her brief visit to Nathama was long lasting. This stance is supported by the fact that everyone else who briefly visited Nathama also didn't have lasting mental trauma. Between our two arguments my argument has actual evidence supporting it. Your argument is a rationalization of why there isn't evidence supporting your argument.