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xoltholLevel Five
Re: Thon vs Darth Bane
October 16th 2020, 3:09 pm
@LadyKulvax
Your argument is false. Let me explained this:
It isn't a mere fraction of Ambria's power that nearly killed Bane. It is Zannah's spell that transform a fraction of this power into something that Bane cannot counter.
Two things here must be taken into account:
Now that your logical error have been corrected lets think a minute about the reflexion on Thon and its so call Lake Nath feat...
You claimed that:
However there is a problem in your logic. You claimed that Thon was far more powerful than any of this Sith spirit (because in near-death exhaustion he was able to traps them all thanks his raw power). But in the very book that you used it is clearly explained that he faced again and again this dark side spirits but wasn't able to end them... I think you are begining to see the problem here:
If while very weakened he can defeat them all why can't he deal with them permanantly one after the other in normal state?
The reason that comes to my mind isn't because of his raw power but rather an amp or the use of a tactic that allow him to win (remember my previous point about power and knowledge...).
Just a last point:
Have you any quote that prove this or is it just your interpretation of that feat? Because honestly I don't remember any.
Now that I have destroy your pseudo-argumentation about Thon being far above Bane, have you other real argument for the jedi master?
Now my opinion on this fight : Bane win.
First of all he is a great lightsaber duelist where Thon didn't have any lightsaber. This should give Bane a prettt solid avantage at close quarter.
In addition to this, Bane has shown an insane willpower allowing him to resist extreme pain and even succeed a complex ritual called essence transfer while being in its most painful physical state ever.
Last but not least, we have a fairly interresting comparison for Bane which favor him.
Bane is far more powerful than Lord Kaan. {1}
Lord Kaan and the Brotherhood of Darkness achieve the Thought Bomb ritual which killed countless of siths and jedi and trapped their spirit on Rusaan.
This ritual was specificly design to capture spirits. {2}
Despite this Kaan was able to escape and even to haunt Bane {3}
Now that we have all elements lets make a comparison:
The Thought Bomb is a way more powerful ritual than the trapped created by Thon. Indeed it killed nearly all life on a insanely great battlefield and created one of the most powerful nexus never seen (the Valley of the Jedi nexus).
Thon in normal state cannot defeat permantly the DS spirits.
All of this spirits can't evade the Ambria Lake despite them being together.
Thus we have that Kaan is far above this spirits so he is at the very least in comparable league (in term of power) with Thon
And we know that Bane is far above Kaan.
As a result Bane is far more powerful than Thon.
So Bane win.
{1}: Lord Kaan knew he was no match for Bane, either physically or through the power of the Force. Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
{2} The vacuum at the center of the blast could suck in the disembodied spirits of Sith and Jedi alike, trapping them side by side for all eternity in an unbreakable state of equilibrium at the heart of a frozen sphere of pure energy. Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
{3} Kaan haunted Bane in the form of a silent spirit hovering in the periphery of his sight. On Dxun, Kaan's silent image led Darth Bane through the jungles to the tomb of Freedon Nadd. The Complete Star Wars encyclopedia.
Your argument is false. Let me explained this:
LadyKulvax wrote:Zannah manipulates a fraction of those energies to attack him with and he's literally defenseless
[...]
Bane gets completely wrecked by a fraction of Ambria's power, being manipulated by Zannah
It isn't a mere fraction of Ambria's power that nearly killed Bane. It is Zannah's spell that transform a fraction of this power into something that Bane cannot counter.
Two things here must be taken into account:
- There is a huge difference between raw power unleashed on someone and precisely crafting power in term of letality. Let me give you a real world example of this. I think that you know the 6th element of the Mendeliev table: Carbon. Under one of its form it is known as COAL something which isn't worth a lot. But after a pretty hge time under great pressure and temperature underground it can become DIAMOND one of the most expensive material in the world. (I know this is a simplified explanation but you got my point). Try to offer your girlfriend some coal and say to her that it's a diamond... I think that she won't enjoy this joke.
- The second point here is the fact that there is a huge difference between: not being able to counter an attack because you aren't powerful enough and not being able to counter an attack because you didn't know how to counter it. In the first case you are lacking power in the second knowledge... Once again a simple comparison: imagine a well trained knight in full plate armor with a shield and a sword. His physical strength must be pretty huge. Against him put a young women without any physical training, no armor or any close quarter weapon but with a gas mask and some deadly neurotxic gas. Despite the knight being way more physical than the lady she will eventually win but no one will claimed that this is a proof of her being stronger (physically speaking) than the knight.
Now that your logical error have been corrected lets think a minute about the reflexion on Thon and its so call Lake Nath feat...
You claimed that:
LadyKulvax wrote:
Thon suffering near-death exhaustion cleanses the entire planet and traps the energy, with all the even more dangerous spirits, in Lake Natth, with his raw power
However there is a problem in your logic. You claimed that Thon was far more powerful than any of this Sith spirit (because in near-death exhaustion he was able to traps them all thanks his raw power). But in the very book that you used it is clearly explained that he faced again and again this dark side spirits but wasn't able to end them... I think you are begining to see the problem here:
If while very weakened he can defeat them all why can't he deal with them permanantly one after the other in normal state?
The reason that comes to my mind isn't because of his raw power but rather an amp or the use of a tactic that allow him to win (remember my previous point about power and knowledge...).
Just a last point:
LadyKulvax wrote: It's the Cron supernova that is the most devastating thing ever seen.
Have you any quote that prove this or is it just your interpretation of that feat? Because honestly I don't remember any.
Now that I have destroy your pseudo-argumentation about Thon being far above Bane, have you other real argument for the jedi master?
Now my opinion on this fight : Bane win.
First of all he is a great lightsaber duelist where Thon didn't have any lightsaber. This should give Bane a prettt solid avantage at close quarter.
In addition to this, Bane has shown an insane willpower allowing him to resist extreme pain and even succeed a complex ritual called essence transfer while being in its most painful physical state ever.
Last but not least, we have a fairly interresting comparison for Bane which favor him.
Bane is far more powerful than Lord Kaan. {1}
Lord Kaan and the Brotherhood of Darkness achieve the Thought Bomb ritual which killed countless of siths and jedi and trapped their spirit on Rusaan.
This ritual was specificly design to capture spirits. {2}
Despite this Kaan was able to escape and even to haunt Bane {3}
Now that we have all elements lets make a comparison:
The Thought Bomb is a way more powerful ritual than the trapped created by Thon. Indeed it killed nearly all life on a insanely great battlefield and created one of the most powerful nexus never seen (the Valley of the Jedi nexus).
Thon in normal state cannot defeat permantly the DS spirits.
All of this spirits can't evade the Ambria Lake despite them being together.
Thus we have that Kaan is far above this spirits so he is at the very least in comparable league (in term of power) with Thon
And we know that Bane is far above Kaan.
As a result Bane is far more powerful than Thon.
So Bane win.
{1}: Lord Kaan knew he was no match for Bane, either physically or through the power of the Force. Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
{2} The vacuum at the center of the blast could suck in the disembodied spirits of Sith and Jedi alike, trapping them side by side for all eternity in an unbreakable state of equilibrium at the heart of a frozen sphere of pure energy. Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
{3} Kaan haunted Bane in the form of a silent spirit hovering in the periphery of his sight. On Dxun, Kaan's silent image led Darth Bane through the jungles to the tomb of Freedon Nadd. The Complete Star Wars encyclopedia.
AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four
Re: Thon vs Darth Bane
October 16th 2020, 10:45 pm
Your entire first argument is predicated on the tendrils being some esoteric power that requires knowledge to defend against it. Literally just reading the quote -which I already posted- makes it clear what they are and why Bane has no defense against it:
This wasn't some random Sith spell, Zannah took the energies from the soil of Ambria and made them semi-corporeal but they are still essentially just the dark side energies of the planet being given form and directed against him.
The argument I presented is literally what is stated on the page. Darth Bane was overpowered by the raw energies of Ambria.
Your Thon argument is simply a failure of understanding the context and what is said in the sources:
1.Thon 'easily' fought off the spirits when they attacked. But the fact that they kept on attacking eventually exhausted him. Yes, as unbelievable as it might be for people to imagine. Even Thon doesn't have infinite energy reserves:
Your complaint only proves my point even further. Thon 'easily' beat the spirits back. Thon can literally beat the spirits over and over again, but not an infinite number of times. Thon then uses wall of light not just to trap the spirits but to cleanse the entire planet of all of its dark side energy, trapping it within a single locale:
Thon's raw light side energies overpowered and forced all of the dark side energies of Ambria into a single location regardless of the fact he was running on nearly depleted Force reserves.
Your argument with Kaan fails hilariously. First of all the ritual energies Thon trapped are clearly beyond Bane given the above clarification. Bane was incapable of even effecting the 'pure dark side energies' that were the properties of the tendrils used against him. A literal fraction of the energies being manipulated by Zannah were so far beyond Bane he literally couldn't defend against or effect them. He was utterly out-matched.
We also know as a matter of fact that Thon is more powerful than Darth Bane by entire magnitudes.Given the stated superiority of Naga Sadow (arguably pre-prime) by Darth Plagueis over his master Darth Tenebrous, who is literally the third most powerful member of the Banite line given generational raw power growth over Darth Bane and Darth Zannah:
and the subsequent fact that Naga Sadow was utterly dwarfed by Freedon Nadd:
Whose own power noted on Jedi record is inferior to the energies that were used in the Ambria ritual as previously established. Thus is inferior to Thon.
Thon > Ambria > Nadd >>> Sadow >> Darth Tenebrous >>>>>>>>>> Darth Bane.
Or if you prefer you can take the ritual being > Naga Sadow mega-amped which was recorded on a Jedi holocron:
Thon one-shots 'easily'.
EDIT: I almost forgot, yeah the Cron supernova is the most devastating:
Dynasty of Evil wrote:They were made of pure dark side energy, and there was no way he could harm them.
This wasn't some random Sith spell, Zannah took the energies from the soil of Ambria and made them semi-corporeal but they are still essentially just the dark side energies of the planet being given form and directed against him.
The argument I presented is literally what is stated on the page. Darth Bane was overpowered by the raw energies of Ambria.
Your Thon argument is simply a failure of understanding the context and what is said in the sources:
1.Thon 'easily' fought off the spirits when they attacked. But the fact that they kept on attacking eventually exhausted him. Yes, as unbelievable as it might be for people to imagine. Even Thon doesn't have infinite energy reserves:
Your complaint only proves my point even further. Thon 'easily' beat the spirits back. Thon can literally beat the spirits over and over again, but not an infinite number of times. Thon then uses wall of light not just to trap the spirits but to cleanse the entire planet of all of its dark side energy, trapping it within a single locale:
Thon's raw light side energies overpowered and forced all of the dark side energies of Ambria into a single location regardless of the fact he was running on nearly depleted Force reserves.
Your argument with Kaan fails hilariously. First of all the ritual energies Thon trapped are clearly beyond Bane given the above clarification. Bane was incapable of even effecting the 'pure dark side energies' that were the properties of the tendrils used against him. A literal fraction of the energies being manipulated by Zannah were so far beyond Bane he literally couldn't defend against or effect them. He was utterly out-matched.
We also know as a matter of fact that Thon is more powerful than Darth Bane by entire magnitudes.Given the stated superiority of Naga Sadow (arguably pre-prime) by Darth Plagueis over his master Darth Tenebrous, who is literally the third most powerful member of the Banite line given generational raw power growth over Darth Bane and Darth Zannah:
Force & Destiny wrote:Ultimately, Bane's plan produced more powerful Sith Lords with every generation.
Episode I: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook wrote:For a millennium, the Sith maintained the order in secrecy, passing down their evil heritage. As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation.
and the subsequent fact that Naga Sadow was utterly dwarfed by Freedon Nadd:
The Dark Legacy of Yavin 4 Part 1 Codex Entry wrote:Sadow was even powerful enough to stave off the inevitable. He placed himself in a near-death slumber, which he remained in for hundreds of years, waiting until someone would come to take his place….
Chronicles of the Old Republic wrote:Here on YAVIN 4, Sadow drew on Sith technology and sorcery to cocoon himself in suspended animation until awakened at a future Golden Age.
The Official Fact File 90 wrote:Eventually, the apprentice became far more powerful than the teacher...
The Dark Legacy of Yavin 4 Part 3 Codex Entry wrote:And just as Nadd killed his lord Sadow, Kun destroyed Nadd’s spirit here on Yavin 4.
Whose own power noted on Jedi record is inferior to the energies that were used in the Ambria ritual as previously established. Thus is inferior to Thon.
Thon > Ambria > Nadd >>> Sadow >> Darth Tenebrous >>>>>>>>>> Darth Bane.
Or if you prefer you can take the ritual being > Naga Sadow mega-amped which was recorded on a Jedi holocron:
Thon one-shots 'easily'.
EDIT: I almost forgot, yeah the Cron supernova is the most devastating:
NevesYtneves (DC77)Level Seven
Re: Thon vs Darth Bane
October 17th 2020, 1:31 pm
AP giving a smackdown. Bane is once again proven to be bin tier.
- xoltholLevel Five
Re: Thon vs Darth Bane
October 19th 2020, 8:50 am
@LadyKulvax
Do you understand that you are contradicted yourself in the same sentence?
You are saying both that this isn't a spell from Zannah and that Zannah made "semi-corporeal" the DS energy from Ambria...
In addition to this in the same extract that you provide us there is this :
I don't know for you but for anyone of with good faith it is pretty obvious that Zannah cast a spell on Ambria's power creating this "semi-corporeal" tendrils that Bane cannot harm. So contrary to what you said: this is a spell so you need knowledge to counter it.
The only that is a failure here is your understanding of my interrogation on your argument...
I will try to made it more easily to understand:
how it is possible (while being heavily tired) that Thon successfully trapped all of the sith spirits but cannot trapped/captured/cought (use the word you want) each spirit that attacked him (while being in a normal state) ?
Even if I'm generous with you and agree on the fact that at the first confrontation he didn't think about trapping the spirits, after some fights he should have think of this tactic.
In addition it is mentionned that Thon trapped the spirits in a "lattice-work of light-side energy". It really looks like that Thon set a trap for the spirit by building this lattice-work thus accumulating (while not fighting) part of his energy. Similar to a ritual for sith which aren't combat-applicable.
Last but not least you are claiming that Thon trapped both the sith spirits and the DS energy of Ambria in the Lake Nath (which is factually true) at the same time (this point isn't prove at all by any of your argumentation). Can you please provide a clear case for this last part. Because we have zero proof of it. All your scan only shows that he do both be we have no proof that he made this in the same time.
Now that I have shown that you contradict yourself thus that Bane did not lack the power to counter Zannah's spell but rather the knowledge my scaling still perfectly hold.
And I have also written a blog explaining why I think that the Rule of Two scaling wasn't a full success.... (You see I can also quote an argument from outside and use it as a factual source)
But the biggest problem that I have here is how you are putting Thon in this neo-antidiluvian scaling.
You are claiming : Thon power > Ambria Ritual. This is absolutely false the best thing that you can have (if I subscribe to your theory of Thon being more powerful than the DS energy of Ambria which I don't) is: Thon power > Ambria remaining power of the Ritual. Which is a completely different thing.
By any logical mean, knowing that the ritual failed and the backlash destroyed every single life on the planet it is pretty obvious that the reamins of the power cannot be as powerful as the power gathered for the ritual.
Now I will add some other argument in favor of Bane:
First of all, the idea of the Huntress who had see the cataclysm on Ambria thus contemplating the full power gathered by the sith Sorceress:
And this is what she felt while having the same type of vision but about Bane:
This is basically the proof that Bane was another level entirely than the power gathered by the Sith Sorceress, placing Bane far above anything that Thon have for him.
And sorry for you but saying:
The second point that I want to use is a simple comparison:
While being a non-trained child Zannah was able to shield herself and her friend from a devastating Force Storm.
Just for you to have an idea, this Force storm nearly destroy the whole world of Ruusan:
As you can easily see, this attack could have wipped the whole world and destroy every living thing on it if Kaan didn't stop that fom happening.
In addition the devastation caused by this ritual was similar to the one created by the backlash of the sorceress ritual.
Therefore we have: DOE Bane >>> POD Bane >>> non-trained Zannah >> powerful attack that can destroy a world.
Because of all of this we have that Bane will absolutely destroy Thon (and I'm not even taking into account the fact that he have a lightsaber thus having a huge advantage at close range).
LadyKulvax wrote:
This wasn't some random Sith spell, Zannah took the energies from the soil of Ambria and made them semi-corporeal but they are still essentially just the dark side energies of the planet being given form and directed against him.
Do you understand that you are contradicted yourself in the same sentence?
You are saying both that this isn't a spell from Zannah and that Zannah made "semi-corporeal" the DS energy from Ambria...
In addition to this in the same extract that you provide us there is this :
Dynasty of Evil wrote:
Somehow Zannah had given substance and corporeality to the dark side, transforming it into half a dozen shadowy, serpent-like minions rising up from the ground.
[...]
The tendrils were massing for another assault, moving faster as Zannah fed them with a steady stream of power
I don't know for you but for anyone of with good faith it is pretty obvious that Zannah cast a spell on Ambria's power creating this "semi-corporeal" tendrils that Bane cannot harm. So contrary to what you said: this is a spell so you need knowledge to counter it.
LadyKulvax wrote:
Your Thon argument is simply a failure of understanding the context and what is said in the sources
The only that is a failure here is your understanding of my interrogation on your argument...
I will try to made it more easily to understand:
how it is possible (while being heavily tired) that Thon successfully trapped all of the sith spirits but cannot trapped/captured/cought (use the word you want) each spirit that attacked him (while being in a normal state) ?
Even if I'm generous with you and agree on the fact that at the first confrontation he didn't think about trapping the spirits, after some fights he should have think of this tactic.
In addition it is mentionned that Thon trapped the spirits in a "lattice-work of light-side energy". It really looks like that Thon set a trap for the spirit by building this lattice-work thus accumulating (while not fighting) part of his energy. Similar to a ritual for sith which aren't combat-applicable.
Last but not least you are claiming that Thon trapped both the sith spirits and the DS energy of Ambria in the Lake Nath (which is factually true) at the same time (this point isn't prove at all by any of your argumentation). Can you please provide a clear case for this last part. Because we have zero proof of it. All your scan only shows that he do both be we have no proof that he made this in the same time.
LadyKulvax wrote:
Your argument with Kaan fails hilariously. First of all the ritual energies Thon trapped are clearly beyond Bane given the above clarification. Bane was incapable of even effecting the 'pure dark side energies' that were the properties of the tendrils used against him. A literal fraction of the energies being manipulated by Zannah were so far beyond Bane he literally couldn't defend against or effect them. He was utterly out-matched
Now that I have shown that you contradict yourself thus that Bane did not lack the power to counter Zannah's spell but rather the knowledge my scaling still perfectly hold.
LadyKulvax wrote:
We also know as a matter of fact that Thon is more powerful than Darth Bane by entire magnitudes.Given the stated superiority of Naga Sadow (arguably pre-prime) by Darth Plagueis over his master Darth Tenebrous, who is literally the third most powerful member of the Banite line given generational raw power growth over Darth Bane and Darth Zannah
And I have also written a blog explaining why I think that the Rule of Two scaling wasn't a full success.... (You see I can also quote an argument from outside and use it as a factual source)
But the biggest problem that I have here is how you are putting Thon in this neo-antidiluvian scaling.
LadyKulvax wrote:
Whose own [Freedon Nadd] power noted on Jedi record is inferior to the energies that were used in the Ambria ritual as previously established. Thus is inferior to Thon.
You are claiming : Thon power > Ambria Ritual. This is absolutely false the best thing that you can have (if I subscribe to your theory of Thon being more powerful than the DS energy of Ambria which I don't) is: Thon power > Ambria remaining power of the Ritual. Which is a completely different thing.
By any logical mean, knowing that the ritual failed and the backlash destroyed every single life on the planet it is pretty obvious that the reamins of the power cannot be as powerful as the power gathered for the ritual.
Now I will add some other argument in favor of Bane:
First of all, the idea of the Huntress who had see the cataclysm on Ambria thus contemplating the full power gathered by the sith Sorceress:
Dynasty of Evil wrote:
Thousands of years ago Ambria had been a world of verdant forests, brimming with life and the power of the Force. But the lush vegetation had been devastated when a Sith sorceress tried-and failed-to bend the entire planet to her will through a powerful ritual. Unable to control the violent energies of the dark side, she was destroyed by her own spell, as was the landscape of the entire planet.
For centuries the corruption of the failed ritual influenced all life on Ambria, transforming the once beautiful world into a nightmare of stunted, poisonous vegetation and twisted, mutated beasts. Eventually the dark side energies released by the Sith sorceress were trapped in a great lake near the planet's equator by a Jedi Master named Thon, but the damage was too widespread for the world to ever be completely healed.
The Iktotchi knew all this not because she had studied the planet's history, however. Her connection to the Force allowed her to see things.
And this is what she felt while having the same type of vision but about Bane:
Dynasty of Evil wrote:
Even though they were decades removed from the encounter, the Iktotchi sensed the raw power of the dark side emanating from him. It was like nothing she had seen or felt before, both terrifying and exhilarating
This is basically the proof that Bane was another level entirely than the power gathered by the Sith Sorceress, placing Bane far above anything that Thon have for him.
And sorry for you but saying:
... didn't counter anything... It is clearly stated that the power that she felt in Bane is way above anything that she ever felt. This logically include the power collected by the sorceress to achieve her ritual.LadyKulvax wrote:
Darth Bane's power is obviously not like a failed ritual that exploded and wiped out a planet. It in absolutely no way means that Bane > the ritual energies
The second point that I want to use is a simple comparison:
While being a non-trained child Zannah was able to shield herself and her friend from a devastating Force Storm.
Just for you to have an idea, this Force storm nearly destroy the whole world of Ruusan:
Path of Destruction wrote:
"Can you feel it?" he screamed, feeling as if the raw power of the Force roaring through him might rip his very flesh asunder. "Are you ready to kill a world?"
[...]
The storm rolled down from the plateau and rumbled across the forest. Hundreds of forks of searing lightning shot down from the sky - and the forest erupted. Trees burst into flames, the blaze racing through the branches and spreading out in all directions. The underbrush smoldered, smoked, and ignited; and a wall of fire swept across the planet's surface.
The inferno consumed everything in its path.
Heat and fire. There was nothing else in Bane's world. It was as if he had become the storm itself: he could see the world before him, swallowed up in red and orange and reduced in seconds to ash and embers by the unchained fury of the dark side.
As you can easily see, this attack could have wipped the whole world and destroy every living thing on it if Kaan didn't stop that fom happening.
In addition the devastation caused by this ritual was similar to the one created by the backlash of the sorceress ritual.
Therefore we have: DOE Bane >>> POD Bane >>> non-trained Zannah >> powerful attack that can destroy a world.
Because of all of this we have that Bane will absolutely destroy Thon (and I'm not even taking into account the fact that he have a lightsaber thus having a huge advantage at close range).
- AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four
Re: Thon vs Darth Bane
October 19th 2020, 8:58 am
Jesus, you posted a wall of text and not a single one of your points actually disproves anything I've said. I'll get back to this when I have the time and can be bothered.
- AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four
Re: Thon vs Darth Bane
October 19th 2020, 9:27 pm
How are you still arguing what this is? It doesn't even matter if it is a spell or not because we know what it is and why he can't do anything to it. I literally explained this in the previous post and you're insisting that it's because of knowledge. Knowledge has nothing to do with it. He literally explains what it is and why he can't defeat it:
They are made out of pure dark side energy and he can't do anything to defeat them or defend against them. He literally says the pain of his own Force lightning was nothing compared to even being touched by one of these things. He shoots his Force lightning at them and there's no effect whatsoever.
But here's the bigger issue, even if you try to argue the spell angle and have any degree of success with that contention, this is something Zannah literally couldn't pull off single-handedly. It's a power drawn from Ambria itself, which means the entire feat is intrinsically based in the power of Ambria. It literally is not possible to divorce the two.
Onto the next part.
Your entire contention with Thon not destroying them is simply irrelevant. Thon can 'easily' beat them over and over again. Why he doesn't outright destroy them doesn't matter because the fact that he can defeat them easily negates any point you can attempt to make here.
This is a box and your logic is trapped inside it. You cannot break these walls, it is an evident matter of fact that Thon >> all of the spirits. Whatever the possible explanations as to why Thon doesn't outright nuke them with Force light, it is inevitably irrelevant to this argument.
Onto the next part.
This seems like a basic incapability to comprehend what is literally there written in the source material which I provided:
'Thon swam out to the middle of Lake Natth and surrendered himself to the dark side. But as the Sith spirits converged on his limp form he lashed out with the Force, ensnaring his enemies in a lattice-work of light-side energy.'
Try re-reading that. Thon literally surrendered himself to the dark side. He dropped his defenses and only 'lashed out' when all of them were converging on him. None of this implies a ritual whatsoever (you know, those things only Sith use in sorcery). You're attempting to grasp at any straws possible but the FACT that they are 'easily' beaten numerous times over whilst on a dark side nexus completely negates any attempt to undermine his superiority you can ever come up with.
Onto yet another obvious (lack of a) point of contention.
The sources I provided literally reiterate that it was all done simultaneously. He traps all of the energy and spirits into a single locale. Once. The feat is not repeated again. The idea that the feat is somehow divided makes no sense at all. It is very, very clear that this was done simultaneously. All sources only ever refer to a single act. As you might have noticed, most sources never acknowledge the spirits only the energies. Hence why they aren't noted together in one source. So honestly, this argument explains itself.
Next.
Not to be rude. But your blog doesn't matter compared to blatant source material stating outright that the Banite line was a continuous power progression. Any attempt at exposing problems with this, has literally always ended with simply resolving the conflict and ending with the same result as we started with. That Banites grew in power with each generation.
Next.
Your contention with Ambria was a trap I was hoping you'd spring. First of all, we know the energy released from the ritual was an 'uncontrollable wave', not an actual explosion:
So the immediate loss of energy is nowhere near what you'd like to claim to, in fact there'd be none at all. But better yet (for me) that uncontrollable wave didn't dissipate, but suffused into the landscape itself:
From the above quotes we know the wave killed all living things, so the dark side energy in the soil has to be the same.
But far more importantly, the spirits we've previously discussed were NOT part of the original ritual energies. They were merely killed by it. The spirits are divisable from said power:
How powerful were these spirits? Far more powerful than the ritual itself given they literally threatened to consume an entire sector of the inner rim of the galaxy; which contained five entire star systems, not just destroy the surface of a single planet:
The threat posed by them, caused the literal will of the Force to summon Thon to Ambria to stop them:
So we have the ritual energies seeping into the soil and Sith spirits so powerful they would've drained a sector of life. Bane got yeeted by a fraction of the first, nevermind the second.
Next.
Your entire Cognus scaling argument not only depends on Cognus having seen the Ambria ritual with a Force vision giving her an infallible measure of the rituals power. it also doesn't mean what you want it to. 'It was nothing she had seen or felt before' doesn't mean greater than, stronger than or more powerful than. By any means. There's an enormous difference.
Your entire rant about DoE Bane's scaling is absolutely irrelevant for your argument unless you can break the scaling above:
Thon >> Sith spirits of Ambria >> Ambrian ritual energies
Which leads into >> Freedon Nadd or >> mega-amped Naga Sadow.
But it does serve as great wank for Thon.
Thon still stomps and there's really nothing you can argue at this point besides essentially semantics with no real bearing on the actual argument I've presented.
You've lost even more ground than you had before you replied.
Thon massacres Bane.
Dynasty of Evil wrote:They were made of pure dark side energy, and there was no way he could harm them.
They are made out of pure dark side energy and he can't do anything to defeat them or defend against them. He literally says the pain of his own Force lightning was nothing compared to even being touched by one of these things. He shoots his Force lightning at them and there's no effect whatsoever.
But here's the bigger issue, even if you try to argue the spell angle and have any degree of success with that contention, this is something Zannah literally couldn't pull off single-handedly. It's a power drawn from Ambria itself, which means the entire feat is intrinsically based in the power of Ambria. It literally is not possible to divorce the two.
Onto the next part.
Your entire contention with Thon not destroying them is simply irrelevant. Thon can 'easily' beat them over and over again. Why he doesn't outright destroy them doesn't matter because the fact that he can defeat them easily negates any point you can attempt to make here.
This is a box and your logic is trapped inside it. You cannot break these walls, it is an evident matter of fact that Thon >> all of the spirits. Whatever the possible explanations as to why Thon doesn't outright nuke them with Force light, it is inevitably irrelevant to this argument.
Onto the next part.
This seems like a basic incapability to comprehend what is literally there written in the source material which I provided:
'Thon swam out to the middle of Lake Natth and surrendered himself to the dark side. But as the Sith spirits converged on his limp form he lashed out with the Force, ensnaring his enemies in a lattice-work of light-side energy.'
Try re-reading that. Thon literally surrendered himself to the dark side. He dropped his defenses and only 'lashed out' when all of them were converging on him. None of this implies a ritual whatsoever (you know, those things only Sith use in sorcery). You're attempting to grasp at any straws possible but the FACT that they are 'easily' beaten numerous times over whilst on a dark side nexus completely negates any attempt to undermine his superiority you can ever come up with.
Onto yet another obvious (lack of a) point of contention.
The sources I provided literally reiterate that it was all done simultaneously. He traps all of the energy and spirits into a single locale. Once. The feat is not repeated again. The idea that the feat is somehow divided makes no sense at all. It is very, very clear that this was done simultaneously. All sources only ever refer to a single act. As you might have noticed, most sources never acknowledge the spirits only the energies. Hence why they aren't noted together in one source. So honestly, this argument explains itself.
Next.
Not to be rude. But your blog doesn't matter compared to blatant source material stating outright that the Banite line was a continuous power progression. Any attempt at exposing problems with this, has literally always ended with simply resolving the conflict and ending with the same result as we started with. That Banites grew in power with each generation.
Next.
Your contention with Ambria was a trap I was hoping you'd spring. First of all, we know the energy released from the ritual was an 'uncontrollable wave', not an actual explosion:
So the immediate loss of energy is nowhere near what you'd like to claim to, in fact there'd be none at all. But better yet (for me) that uncontrollable wave didn't dissipate, but suffused into the landscape itself:
Tales of the Jedi Companion wrote:The dark side energy suffused into the soil had killed all living things.
From the above quotes we know the wave killed all living things, so the dark side energy in the soil has to be the same.
But far more importantly, the spirits we've previously discussed were NOT part of the original ritual energies. They were merely killed by it. The spirits are divisable from said power:
How powerful were these spirits? Far more powerful than the ritual itself given they literally threatened to consume an entire sector of the inner rim of the galaxy; which contained five entire star systems, not just destroy the surface of a single planet:
The threat posed by them, caused the literal will of the Force to summon Thon to Ambria to stop them:
Power of the Jedi Sourcebook wrote:In time, the will of the Force led a Tchuukthai Jedi Master named Thon to Ambria. Thon came to the planet expressly to fight the dark side.
So we have the ritual energies seeping into the soil and Sith spirits so powerful they would've drained a sector of life. Bane got yeeted by a fraction of the first, nevermind the second.
Next.
Your entire Cognus scaling argument not only depends on Cognus having seen the Ambria ritual with a Force vision giving her an infallible measure of the rituals power. it also doesn't mean what you want it to. 'It was nothing she had seen or felt before' doesn't mean greater than, stronger than or more powerful than. By any means. There's an enormous difference.
Your entire rant about DoE Bane's scaling is absolutely irrelevant for your argument unless you can break the scaling above:
Thon >> Sith spirits of Ambria >> Ambrian ritual energies
Which leads into >> Freedon Nadd or >> mega-amped Naga Sadow.
But it does serve as great wank for Thon.
Thon still stomps and there's really nothing you can argue at this point besides essentially semantics with no real bearing on the actual argument I've presented.
You've lost even more ground than you had before you replied.
Thon massacres Bane.
- xoltholLevel Five
Re: Thon vs Darth Bane
October 20th 2020, 6:27 am
LadyKulvax wrote:Jesus, you posted a wall of text and not a single one of your points actually disproves anything I've said. I'll get back to this when I have the time and can be bothered.
As you can see, I can also do some sarcastic and useless answer to your response.
- AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four
Re: Thon vs Darth Bane
October 20th 2020, 8:38 am
It wasn't sarcasm.
- xoltholLevel Five
Re: Thon vs Darth Bane
October 22nd 2020, 6:44 am
@LadyKulvax
I will try to be as constructive as possible in my response because I'm hoping that we can find a middle ground on this debate or at least on some particular points of it.
And this time I've made it as clear and logic as possible so you cannot say : "it didn't counter any of what I said"
In all response I will dissecate all of our respective arguments in little piece that will be annoted (1) or (i) or (a). In order to make your response as clear as possible (if you decide to respond to me) can you use the same method to be as precise as possible. (For example if you agree with me on my point (i) but disagree with my point (1) just say: "I disagree with (1) because...")
*Bane vs Zannah: the tendrils problem*
I'm not trying to divorce the two source of power (Zannah and Ambria). I'm just arguing that the power isn't what matter in this confrontation. (This is what I will refer as my point/my position in this paragraph) Further explanation coming in my following part.
To be sure that I don't miss anything I will reformulate your logical argumentation. Please correct me if I make a mistake:
To use sort of a contraposed argument: If Bane was more powerful than this fraction of power coming from Ambria he would be able to counter the tendrills.
Have I correctly presented your argument? (For now I will guess that I have).
In the following part I will explain my problem with your logical argumentation and then provide a new argument to defend my point.
~Against your argument~
I have a problem with 1 and 3.
I agree on the fact that this is calles "pure DS energy" however you must take into account that other power have been credited with the mention DS energy
Force Lightning
Death field
As you can see it seems that pure DS energy can have different expressions (at least it has three).
As a result it is more accurate to qualify the tendrils as "an expression of pure DS energy"
This is the point where I have the biggest problem. Indeed as I have previously explained the tendrils are "an expression of pure DS energy". To be even more accurate, they are the expression that Zannah give the DS while using the DS power of Ambria.
To defend my point I want you to understand that: Zannah crafted Ambria's power in this tendrils (i). And it was something that Bane never faced before (ii). Because of (i) and (ii) I can say: Bane didn't have any knowledge of this power (iii).
Force Lightning (FL) is also an expression of pure DS energy (iv). To counter FL only with your power (so excluding the use of your lightsaber) you commonly rely on tutaminus (v) which is a specific way to counter FL.
Here is the crucial point: Based on the confrontation between Yoda and Sidious (who are arguably in the same league) we can see that Force barrier cannot be used efficiently when facing FL (vi). (if (vi) isn't true there is no reason for Yoda to use tutaminis instead of classic force barrier)
Knowing (iv) and that the pain that Bane felt was way more important while hurt by the tendrils I can argue that the main difference between FL and the tendrils is a difference of intensity/concentration of the DS energy. Therefore they work in the same way, only the impact and the appearance are different (vii)
Because of (vi) and (vii) I can logically argue that you need more than just being more powerful that the power used to create the tendrils to counter them (viii).
As a result of (iii) and (viii) I can say that the reason why Bane cannot counter the tendrils isn't that he lacks the power to do it (ix).
Therefore by using (ix), (vii) and (v) I can argue that Bane lacked the knowledge to counter the tendrils not the power. Which is basically my point.
~Addition for my own argument~
We will obviously agree on the general principle (a): Bane isn't acting illogically.
After failing to destroy the tendrils with his FL he can think of two different things:
(b-1) I lack the power to counter this attack.
(b-2) I lack the knowledge to counter this attack.
If he thought that (b-2) is true, the only way for him to counter this attack is by killing Zannah which is the cause of the tendrils.
If he thought that (b-1) is true he can decide to draw on the power of Ambria in the same way that Zannah did in order to become more powerful than her and thus being able to destroy the tendrils.
However as you pointed out (c):
Therefore because of (a) and (c) it seems that he didn't even think about (b-1).
So at the very least you can agree that: Bane didn't think that the tendrils can be counter with more power (d).
We can agree that Bane is more than an expert in Sith powers/technics and even though Zannah have more knowledge than him he is still very competent (e).
As a result of (e) and Bane must have at the very least think about (b-1). And despite all of his knowledge he decided not to draw on Ambria's power to counter this tendrils.
In addition we have that Bane like to used sheer power to overwhelm his opponent (cf his fight against Qordis, the Tython fight, the last fight against Zannah when he resisted her mindspell via sheer willpower) (f).
Lets not forget this general principle (g): in stressfull situation you will act as you have trained/being used to do. (this is the reason why people trained themself again and again at the same act in order to be able to perform it in stressfull situation)
As a result of (e), f and g it is safe to assume that Bane was right in (d).
Therefore my point is still validated by this argumentation.
*Bane & Cognus scaling*
I will reformulate my argument to counter this part of your argumentation:
Here I have demonstrated why it didn't matter for Cognus to have seen in vision the power gathered on Ambria because she saw the power of Bane through the same way: a vision.
Indeed I have been a bit too fast in my last argumentation about it. So lets start from what I have already proven 5.
So there is different interpretation of 5 here:
(6-1) She had never felt/seen so much/little power of the DS (difference of magnitude)
(6-2) She had never felt/seen a being with the DS (difference of origins)
(6-3) She had never felt/seen DS power before (difference of knowledge)
(If you have another idea for how it could be interpreted fell free to provide it. For now I don't see any other)
(6-3) is pretty unlikely because we know that the huntress learn about the planet through her connection to the Force: "Her connection to the Force allowed her to see things.". So if this time she was able to feel the DS of the Force (something that she must have already feel in the real life) because of 3 there is no reason for her not to feel it during previous vision of the Force.
(6-2) is also unlikely because she already have vision of the Ambria ritual and thus must have at the very least feel the power of the DS coming from the sorceress.
(6-1) is the only option that still exist. In addition to this the inclusion of the Ambria ritual in this comparison work, indeed we have already knowledge of people (such as Valkorion or Sidious) whoose power are felt like DS nexus.
The last thing that remains here is: was she talking about so much or so little. Well it will be absolutely non-logical for her to speak about "the raw power of the dark side emanating from him." and in the same time to considered this power as nearly inexisting (7).
Because of (7) I can logically deduce that (6-1) is the true interpretation of 5.
As a result I can affirm with certainty that: Bane power is another league above the power of the Ambria ritual.
*Thon, the spirits & dark energy of Ambria*
~Thon vs Sith spirits~
If I reformulate your argument you are saying:
(I hope to have precisely describe your argument)
It seems that you overlooked my response which is related to point 1 of your argument. Here it's new formulation: It wasn't Thon's power (applicable in a battle) that allow him to trapped the Sith Spirits.
Here are the reasons behind this:
(i)FACT: In the extract above, you can see that their no mention about Thon power in the description of him trapping the spirit.
(ii-a) FACT: You can see the words: "strategy" and "tactic"
(ii-b) FACT: This words aren't related to the idea of using sheer strenght in order to succeed but rather to use your mind in order to compensate.
(iii-a) FACT: Thon isn't stupid and act logically
(iii-b) FACT: Thon easily repelled the first attacks
(NB: this isn't the same thing as saying he easily defeat a coordinated assault from all the siths spirits at the same time)
(iii-c) FACT:The siths spirits come back again and again
(iii-d) GENERAL PRINCIPLE: If you are in a desperate case it could be because you have already try all tactics in your arsenal and they failed.
(iii-e) FACT: Thon need to use a desperate strategy
(iii-f) CONCLUSION: with (iii-a), (iii-d) and (iii-e) we have that Thon should have try all of his tactics and they should have failed.
(iii-g) CONCLUSION: from (iii-f) we have that Thon must have already try and failed to destroy/trapped/captured the spirits one after the other.
(iv) As a result of (i), (ii) and (iii-g) you cannot argue legitimately that Thon used his sheer (combat applicable) power to trapped the spirits in Lake Natth.
Maybe as you said I didn't understand what it is written. However we can both read the word "lattice-work". Here is the definition of this word:
As you can see, each time it is precisely said that this is a structure which definition is:
Based from all of this I deduce that: (a) Thon build something with the lightside to trap the Sith spirits.
In addition to this we know that Thon "lashed out" which mean:
From this I can deduce that: (b) the attack was very sudden and a surprised for the spirits.
Now from (a) and (b) you have two possibilities:
(c-1) Thon set a trap by building before the fight the "lattice-work"
(c-2) Thon build the "lattice-work" nearly instantaneously during his attack.
Because of (iv) and particularly (ii) it is more likely for (c-1) to be true.
(If you think that (c-2) is more likely please provide some clear evidence because I don't see any).
I disagree with you there isn't the mention of him simultaneously driving the spirits and the DS power in Lake Natth, I let anyone who want the source to make its own opinion on the subject (didn't want to spend too much time on this not really important point).
~Ambria's DS energy~
What difference did you make between an explosion and an uncontrollable wave? Personnaly I didn't see any.
If I understand you well this is your argument:
I disagree with 3 and 7 and in addition to this I think that you forget an important point about the way things work.
The problems that I have here are the following:
(i): The wave warped the landscape (cf your first scan)
(ii): The wave killed thousands of living creature (cf your first scan)
Because of (ii) it seems that: at first the wave didn't kill every living being. This isn't in contradiction with 5 which state that the DS energy killed all the living things. It can be interpreted as (iii): first the DS wave ravaged the world (supported by (i)) then the DS suffused in the soil and kill all the reaminig being.
As a result of (i) and (iii) it is logic that (iv): the DS suffused in the soil and the wave aren't the same thing.
Since when this is true? If I suffused ether in some cloth it will still dissepear after some time. Indeed this will slow the process but absolutely not stop it. I absolutely deny the truth of this principle and ask for some clear evidence of its truth (v).
One of your claim is that the DS energy that Thon contained in Lake Natth are exactly the same that have been gathered by the sorceress (9).
In the same time you agree with (i) and (ii).
Didn't it occur to you that some part of the energy from the ritual must have been used to "warped the landscape" or to "kill thousands of living creature"? And because of the Entropy principle this energy won't come back under its previous form.
To be more precise we should have something like this (vi):
Energy gathered from the ritual -> Uncontrollable Wave = Kinectic energy (warping the landscape and killing a bunch of living being) + DS energy that killed all remaining life + DS energy that suffused the soil.
And here I am extremly generous with you. Let me remind you this other principle (isotropic principle) (vii): If something is uncontrollable and isn't restrain by anything it will equally spread in all direction.
As a result of (vii) and1 we have that (viii): the uncontrollable wave must have been omnidirectional (including vertical and horizontal mouvement).
From (viii) we must modified (vi) as following (ix):
Energy gathered from the ritual -> Uncontrollable Wave = Kinectic energy (warping the landscape and killing a bunch of living being) + DS energy that killed all remaining life + DS energy that suffused the soil + DS energy that expand in the athomsphere.
As a final result of (iv), (v) and (ix) it is obvious that the DS energy remaining at Thon arrival weren't the same that the one gathered during the ritual.
~Sith Spirits power~
Your theory:
I disagree with your points 2 an 3:
(i): Can you prove that the scan is talking about the Space sector and not a sector of Ambria? I'm really surprised that you think about a space sector when the entire extract is talking about Ambria itself.
(ii): Can you prove that this sith were killed by the uncontrollable wave and not by the ritual itself?
If not it is more than likely for the energy of the Sith spirit to be taken into account of the full energy from the ritual (ii-a). If I add the following principle (ii-b): if you are part of a set you cannot be greater than the set itself, we ended with the fact that (ii-c): the spirits aren't more powerful than the ritual.
Thus by applying the contraposed of 3 you have that (ii-d) the spirits cannot deal more damage than the ritual. As a result (ii-e) it is impossible for them to destroy the whole space sector.
I contest this principle because (iii) you forget to add this three important variables which are time, preparation and external sources.
(iii-a)You can't prove that "consuming the entire sector" will be as quick as the wave that destroy Ambria (something that is likely to have Ziost speed).
(iii-b) You can't prove that "consuming the entire sector" will hapened because of a sheer multi- star-system drain and not because of a complex ritual which have been prepared for decades or even centuries.
(iii-c) You can't prove that the spirits weren't amped by the remains of the ritual energy.
Lets not forget the principle (iv): For feat B to be above feat A, feat B must happened happened at best in the same circumstances (which include preparation, time and external context) than feat A.
As a result of (iii) and (iv) I can affirm with certainty that (v): there is no possibility to use your general principle in this case.
Based on (i), (ii) and (v) I logically deduced that: you cannot prove that the Sith spirits were more powerful than the Ambria ritual.
*GENERAL CONCLUSION*
(Congrats for those who read me up to this point)
Through this all demonstration I've tried to be as accurate and precise as possible and to precisely demonstrate my opinion.
From this, it remains that:
Now for those who are interrested you can find a link below to an CaV of @Master Azronger where he scale Bane's power. Even though I personnaly disagree with it this scaling puts Bane far above anything that Thon have (even if I agree with: Thon >> Sith spirits of Ambria >> Ambrian ritual energies >> Freedon Nadd or >> mega-amped Naga Sadow.). And sorry for you @LadyKulvax but this scaling is way more solid that yours.
Bane power overview
I will try to be as constructive as possible in my response because I'm hoping that we can find a middle ground on this debate or at least on some particular points of it.
And this time I've made it as clear and logic as possible so you cannot say : "it didn't counter any of what I said"
In all response I will dissecate all of our respective arguments in little piece that will be annoted (1) or (i) or (a). In order to make your response as clear as possible (if you decide to respond to me) can you use the same method to be as precise as possible. (For example if you agree with me on my point (i) but disagree with my point (1) just say: "I disagree with (1) because...")
*Bane vs Zannah: the tendrils problem*
LadyKulvax wrote:
But here's the bigger issue, even if you try to argue the spell angle and have any degree of success with that contention, this is something Zannah literally couldn't pull off single-handedly. It's a power drawn from Ambria itself, which means the entire feat is intrinsically based in the power of Ambria. It literally is not possible to divorce the two.
I'm not trying to divorce the two source of power (Zannah and Ambria). I'm just arguing that the power isn't what matter in this confrontation. (This is what I will refer as my point/my position in this paragraph) Further explanation coming in my following part.
LadyKulvax wrote:
How are you still arguing what this is? It doesn't even matter if it is a spell or not because we know what it is and why he can't do anything to it. I literally explained this in the previous post and you're insisting that it's because of knowledge. Knowledge has nothing to do with it. He literally explains what it is and why he can't defeat it:
[...]
They are made out of pure dark side energy and he can't do anything to defeat them or defend against them. He literally says the pain of his own Force lightning was nothing compared to even being touched by one of these things. He shoots his Force lightning at them and there's no effect whatsoever
To be sure that I don't miss anything I will reformulate your logical argumentation. Please correct me if I make a mistake:
- FACT: Tendrils were made of pure DS energy
- FACT: Bane can neither harm them nor defend against them
- GENERAL PRINCIPLE: If you cannot defend/counter an attack it is because you lack the power to do it
- CONCLUSION: As a result of 1, 2 and 3 we have that Bane's power is below the fraction of power coming from Ambria.
To use sort of a contraposed argument: If Bane was more powerful than this fraction of power coming from Ambria he would be able to counter the tendrills.
Have I correctly presented your argument? (For now I will guess that I have).
In the following part I will explain my problem with your logical argumentation and then provide a new argument to defend my point.
~Against your argument~
I have a problem with 1 and 3.
- "Tendrils were made of pure DS energy"
I agree on the fact that this is calles "pure DS energy" however you must take into account that other power have been credited with the mention DS energy
Force Lightning
Jedi vs.Sith The Essential Guide to the Force wrote:
Those who follow the dark side may learn to release pure energy from their fingertips.
Death field
Book of Sith wrote:
An unstoppable concentration of dark side energy projected from your physical animus in the shape of a sphere.
As you can see it seems that pure DS energy can have different expressions (at least it has three).
As a result it is more accurate to qualify the tendrils as "an expression of pure DS energy"
- If you cannot defend/counter an attack it is because you lack the power to do it
This is the point where I have the biggest problem. Indeed as I have previously explained the tendrils are "an expression of pure DS energy". To be even more accurate, they are the expression that Zannah give the DS while using the DS power of Ambria.
To defend my point I want you to understand that: Zannah crafted Ambria's power in this tendrils (i). And it was something that Bane never faced before (ii). Because of (i) and (ii) I can say: Bane didn't have any knowledge of this power (iii).
Force Lightning (FL) is also an expression of pure DS energy (iv). To counter FL only with your power (so excluding the use of your lightsaber) you commonly rely on tutaminus (v) which is a specific way to counter FL.
Here is the crucial point: Based on the confrontation between Yoda and Sidious (who are arguably in the same league) we can see that Force barrier cannot be used efficiently when facing FL (vi). (if (vi) isn't true there is no reason for Yoda to use tutaminis instead of classic force barrier)
Knowing (iv) and that the pain that Bane felt was way more important while hurt by the tendrils I can argue that the main difference between FL and the tendrils is a difference of intensity/concentration of the DS energy. Therefore they work in the same way, only the impact and the appearance are different (vii)
Because of (vi) and (vii) I can logically argue that you need more than just being more powerful that the power used to create the tendrils to counter them (viii).
As a result of (iii) and (viii) I can say that the reason why Bane cannot counter the tendrils isn't that he lacks the power to do it (ix).
Therefore by using (ix), (vii) and (v) I can argue that Bane lacked the knowledge to counter the tendrils not the power. Which is basically my point.
~Addition for my own argument~
We will obviously agree on the general principle (a): Bane isn't acting illogically.
After failing to destroy the tendrils with his FL he can think of two different things:
(b-1) I lack the power to counter this attack.
(b-2) I lack the knowledge to counter this attack.
If he thought that (b-2) is true, the only way for him to counter this attack is by killing Zannah which is the cause of the tendrils.
If he thought that (b-1) is true he can decide to draw on the power of Ambria in the same way that Zannah did in order to become more powerful than her and thus being able to destroy the tendrils.
However as you pointed out (c):
Dynasty of Evil wrote:
They were made of pure dark side energy, and there was no way he could harm them. That left him with only one option-kill Zannah before the tentacles killed him.
Therefore because of (a) and (c) it seems that he didn't even think about (b-1).
So at the very least you can agree that: Bane didn't think that the tendrils can be counter with more power (d).
We can agree that Bane is more than an expert in Sith powers/technics and even though Zannah have more knowledge than him he is still very competent (e).
As a result of (e) and Bane must have at the very least think about (b-1). And despite all of his knowledge he decided not to draw on Ambria's power to counter this tendrils.
In addition we have that Bane like to used sheer power to overwhelm his opponent (cf his fight against Qordis, the Tython fight, the last fight against Zannah when he resisted her mindspell via sheer willpower) (f).
Lets not forget this general principle (g): in stressfull situation you will act as you have trained/being used to do. (this is the reason why people trained themself again and again at the same act in order to be able to perform it in stressfull situation)
As a result of (e), f and g it is safe to assume that Bane was right in (d).
Therefore my point is still validated by this argumentation.
*Bane & Cognus scaling*
LadyKulvax wrote:
Your entire Cognus scaling argument not only depends on Cognus having seen the Ambria ritual with a Force vision giving her an infallible measure of the rituals power.
I will reformulate my argument to counter this part of your argumentation:
- FACT: Cognus was able through the Force to have vision of the Ambria ritual and its failure
- FACT: Cognus was able through a vision to see Bane sensed his power
- FACT: Cognus classified Bane power as "nothing she had seen or felt before"
- GENERAL PRINCIPLE: If you see two different things through the same method/way, you will have the same deformations for the two things.
- CONCLUSION : As a result of 1, 2, 3 and 4 I have that Bane power is really nothing like anything that she have seen or felt before.
Here I have demonstrated why it didn't matter for Cognus to have seen in vision the power gathered on Ambria because she saw the power of Bane through the same way: a vision.
LadyKulvax wrote:
it also doesn't mean what you want it to. 'It was nothing she had seen or felt before' doesn't mean greater than, stronger than or more powerful than. By any means. There's an enormous difference
Indeed I have been a bit too fast in my last argumentation about it. So lets start from what I have already proven 5.
So there is different interpretation of 5 here:
(6-1) She had never felt/seen so much/little power of the DS (difference of magnitude)
(6-2) She had never felt/seen a being with the DS (difference of origins)
(6-3) She had never felt/seen DS power before (difference of knowledge)
(If you have another idea for how it could be interpreted fell free to provide it. For now I don't see any other)
(6-3) is pretty unlikely because we know that the huntress learn about the planet through her connection to the Force: "Her connection to the Force allowed her to see things.". So if this time she was able to feel the DS of the Force (something that she must have already feel in the real life) because of 3 there is no reason for her not to feel it during previous vision of the Force.
(6-2) is also unlikely because she already have vision of the Ambria ritual and thus must have at the very least feel the power of the DS coming from the sorceress.
(6-1) is the only option that still exist. In addition to this the inclusion of the Ambria ritual in this comparison work, indeed we have already knowledge of people (such as Valkorion or Sidious) whoose power are felt like DS nexus.
The last thing that remains here is: was she talking about so much or so little. Well it will be absolutely non-logical for her to speak about "the raw power of the dark side emanating from him." and in the same time to considered this power as nearly inexisting (7).
Because of (7) I can logically deduce that (6-1) is the true interpretation of 5.
As a result I can affirm with certainty that: Bane power is another league above the power of the Ambria ritual.
*Thon, the spirits & dark energy of Ambria*
~Thon vs Sith spirits~
LadyKulvax wrote:
This is a box and your logic is trapped inside it. You cannot break these walls, it is an evident matter of fact that Thon >> all of the spirits
If I reformulate your argument you are saying:
- FACT: Thon trapped thanks to his huge light side power all the spirits while in desperation and exhaustion state in the Lake Natth
- GENERAL PRINCIPLE: If you can force someone against his will to stay in a place then you are more powerful than this being.
- GENERAL PRINCIPLE: In exhausted state your are less powerful than in normal state
- CONCLUSION 1: Because of 1 and 2 Thon is more powerful than all the spirits
- CONCLUSION 2: Because of 3 and 4 you deduced that Thon is far above all the spirits that he trapped
(I hope to have precisely describe your argument)
LadyKulvax wrote:
Your entire contention with Thon not destroying them is simply irrelevant. Thon can 'easily' beat them over and over again. Why he doesn't outright destroy them doesn't matter because the fact that he can defeat them easily negates any point you can attempt to make here.
[...]
Whatever the possible explanations as to why Thon doesn't outright nuke them with Force light, it is inevitably irrelevant to this argument.
It seems that you overlooked my response which is related to point 1 of your argument. Here it's new formulation: It wasn't Thon's power (applicable in a battle) that allow him to trapped the Sith Spirits.
At first he easily repelled the assaults, but as the time passed he grew weary, until at last he thought he could not sustain his defense.
In a final desperate strategy, Thon swam out into the middle of Lake Natth and surrendered himself to the dark side. But as the Sith spirits converged on his limp form, Thon lashed out with the Force, ensnaring his ennemies in a lattice-work of light-side energy. The spirits screamed against Thon's cunning tactic as the Jedi escaped onto the land, leaving the Sith trapped in Lake Natth forever.
Here are the reasons behind this:
(i)FACT: In the extract above, you can see that their no mention about Thon power in the description of him trapping the spirit.
(ii-a) FACT: You can see the words: "strategy" and "tactic"
(ii-b) FACT: This words aren't related to the idea of using sheer strenght in order to succeed but rather to use your mind in order to compensate.
(iii-a) FACT: Thon isn't stupid and act logically
(iii-b) FACT: Thon easily repelled the first attacks
(NB: this isn't the same thing as saying he easily defeat a coordinated assault from all the siths spirits at the same time)
(iii-c) FACT:The siths spirits come back again and again
(iii-d) GENERAL PRINCIPLE: If you are in a desperate case it could be because you have already try all tactics in your arsenal and they failed.
(iii-e) FACT: Thon need to use a desperate strategy
(iii-f) CONCLUSION: with (iii-a), (iii-d) and (iii-e) we have that Thon should have try all of his tactics and they should have failed.
(iii-g) CONCLUSION: from (iii-f) we have that Thon must have already try and failed to destroy/trapped/captured the spirits one after the other.
(iv) As a result of (i), (ii) and (iii-g) you cannot argue legitimately that Thon used his sheer (combat applicable) power to trapped the spirits in Lake Natth.
LadyKulvax wrote:
This seems like a basic incapability to comprehend what is literally there written in the source material which I provided:
'Thon swam out to the middle of Lake Natth and surrendered himself to the dark side. But as the Sith spirits converged on his limp form he lashed out with the Force, ensnaring his enemies in a lattice-work of light-side energy.'
Try re-reading that. Thon literally surrendered himself to the dark side. He dropped his defenses and only 'lashed out' when all of them were converging on him. None of this implies a ritual whatsoever (you know, those things only Sith use in sorcery). You're attempting to grasp at any straws possible but the FACT that they are 'easily' beaten numerous times over whilst on a dark side nexus completely negates any attempt to undermine his superiority you can ever come up with.
Maybe as you said I didn't understand what it is written. However we can both read the word "lattice-work". Here is the definition of this word:
Cambridge dictionary wrote:
a structure made from strips of wood or other material that cross over each other with spaces between
Collins wrote:
Latticework is any structure that is made in the form of a lattice.
As you can see, each time it is precisely said that this is a structure which definition is:
Cambridge Dictionary wrote:
something built, such as a building or a bridge
Collins wrote:
A structure is something that has been built
Based from all of this I deduce that: (a) Thon build something with the lightside to trap the Sith spirits.
In addition to this we know that Thon "lashed out" which mean:
Cambridge Dictionary wrote:
to suddenly attack someone or something physically or criticize him, her, or it in an angry way
Colins wrote:
If you lash out, you attempt to hit someone quickly and violently with a weapon or with your hands or feet
From this I can deduce that: (b) the attack was very sudden and a surprised for the spirits.
Now from (a) and (b) you have two possibilities:
(c-1) Thon set a trap by building before the fight the "lattice-work"
(c-2) Thon build the "lattice-work" nearly instantaneously during his attack.
Because of (iv) and particularly (ii) it is more likely for (c-1) to be true.
(If you think that (c-2) is more likely please provide some clear evidence because I don't see any).
LadyKulvax wrote:
The sources I provided literally reiterate that it was all done simultaneously. He traps all of the energy and spirits into a single locale. Once. The feat is not repeated again. The idea that the feat is somehow divided makes no sense at all. It is very, very clear that this was done simultaneously. All sources only ever refer to a single act. As you might have noticed, most sources never acknowledge the spirits only the energies. Hence why they aren't noted together in one source. So honestly, this argument explains itself.
I disagree with you there isn't the mention of him simultaneously driving the spirits and the DS power in Lake Natth, I let anyone who want the source to make its own opinion on the subject (didn't want to spend too much time on this not really important point).
- Spoiler:
But as the Sith spirits converged on his limp form, Thon lashed out with the Force, ensnaring his ennemies in a lattice-work of light-side energy. The spirits screamed against Thon's cunning tactic as the Jedi escaped onto the land, leaving the Sith trapped in Lake Natth forever.
Compelled by the Force, Master Thon went to Ambria to fight against the power of the dark side , and succeeded in confining its corruption to a single location.
Master Thon [...] defeated potent Sith spirits that threatened to consume the entire sector. THe Jedi Master contained the sinister energy beneath the water of Lake Naath.
Jedi Master Thon, guided by the Force, eventually sought out Ambria and drove the darkness that had reigned upon the planet for millenia into an immense body of water he dubbed Natth[...]
~Ambria's DS energy~
LadyKulvax wrote:
First of all, we know the energy released from the ritual was an 'uncontrollable wave', not an actual explosion
What difference did you make between an explosion and an uncontrollable wave? Personnaly I didn't see any.
LadyKulvax wrote:
So the immediate loss of energy is nowhere near what you'd like to claim to, in fact there'd be none at all. But better yet (for me) that uncontrollable wave didn't dissipate, but suffused into the landscape itself
[...]
From the above quotes we know the wave killed all living things, so the dark side energy in the soil has to be the same
If I understand you well this is your argument:
- FACT: All the energy of the ritual was released in an uncontrollable wave of Force energy
- FACT: The dark side energy suffused into the soil.
- GENERAL PRINCIPLE: Something that suffused didn't dissepear
- FACT: The wave killed all living things
- FACT: The dark side energy suffused into the soil killed all living things
- GENERAL PRINCIPLE: If two things happened in the same time and have the same effect it is very likely for them to be the same thing.
- CONCLUSION: From 4, 5 and 6 we have that the ds suffused in the soil and the wave are the same thing.
- CONCLUSION: From 7, 1, 2 and 3 we have that all the energy from the ritual have been kept into the soil.
I disagree with 3 and 7 and in addition to this I think that you forget an important point about the way things work.
- From 4, 5 and 6 we have that the ds suffused in the soil and the wave are the same thing
The problems that I have here are the following:
(i): The wave warped the landscape (cf your first scan)
(ii): The wave killed thousands of living creature (cf your first scan)
Because of (ii) it seems that: at first the wave didn't kill every living being. This isn't in contradiction with 5 which state that the DS energy killed all the living things. It can be interpreted as (iii): first the DS wave ravaged the world (supported by (i)) then the DS suffused in the soil and kill all the reaminig being.
As a result of (i) and (iii) it is logic that (iv): the DS suffused in the soil and the wave aren't the same thing.
- GENERAL PRINCIPLE: Something that suffused didn't dissepear
Since when this is true? If I suffused ether in some cloth it will still dissepear after some time. Indeed this will slow the process but absolutely not stop it. I absolutely deny the truth of this principle and ask for some clear evidence of its truth (v).
- Forgotten principles
One of your claim is that the DS energy that Thon contained in Lake Natth are exactly the same that have been gathered by the sorceress (9).
In the same time you agree with (i) and (ii).
Didn't it occur to you that some part of the energy from the ritual must have been used to "warped the landscape" or to "kill thousands of living creature"? And because of the Entropy principle this energy won't come back under its previous form.
To be more precise we should have something like this (vi):
Energy gathered from the ritual -> Uncontrollable Wave = Kinectic energy (warping the landscape and killing a bunch of living being) + DS energy that killed all remaining life + DS energy that suffused the soil.
And here I am extremly generous with you. Let me remind you this other principle (isotropic principle) (vii): If something is uncontrollable and isn't restrain by anything it will equally spread in all direction.
As a result of (vii) and1 we have that (viii): the uncontrollable wave must have been omnidirectional (including vertical and horizontal mouvement).
From (viii) we must modified (vi) as following (ix):
Energy gathered from the ritual -> Uncontrollable Wave = Kinectic energy (warping the landscape and killing a bunch of living being) + DS energy that killed all remaining life + DS energy that suffused the soil + DS energy that expand in the athomsphere.
As a final result of (iv), (v) and (ix) it is obvious that the DS energy remaining at Thon arrival weren't the same that the one gathered during the ritual.
~Sith Spirits power~
LadyKulvax wrote:
But far more importantly, the spirits we've previously discussed were NOT part of the original ritual energies. They were merely killed by it. The spirits are divisable from said power:
[...]
How powerful were these spirits? Far more powerful than the ritual itself given they literally threatened to consume an entire sector of the inner rim of the galaxy; which contained five entire star systems, not just destroy the surface of a single planet:
[...]
The threat posed by them, caused the literal will of the Force to summon Thon to Ambria to stop them
[...]
So we have the ritual energies seeping into the soil and Sith spirits so powerful they would've drained a sector of life.
[...]
Thon >> Sith spirits of Ambria >> Ambrian ritual energies >> Freedon Nadd or >> mega-amped Naga Sadow.
Your theory:
- FACT: The uncontrollable wave only destroy Ambria
- FACT: Spirits threatened to consume the entire sector
- GENERAL PRINCIPLE: If you can do more damage than something then you are more powerful than it.
- CONCLUSION: From 1, 2 and 3 you have that the spirits are more powerful than the energy from the ritual.
I disagree with your points 2 an 3:
- Spirits threatened to consume the entire sector
(i): Can you prove that the scan is talking about the Space sector and not a sector of Ambria? I'm really surprised that you think about a space sector when the entire extract is talking about Ambria itself.
(ii): Can you prove that this sith were killed by the uncontrollable wave and not by the ritual itself?
If not it is more than likely for the energy of the Sith spirit to be taken into account of the full energy from the ritual (ii-a). If I add the following principle (ii-b): if you are part of a set you cannot be greater than the set itself, we ended with the fact that (ii-c): the spirits aren't more powerful than the ritual.
Thus by applying the contraposed of 3 you have that (ii-d) the spirits cannot deal more damage than the ritual. As a result (ii-e) it is impossible for them to destroy the whole space sector.
- If you can do more damage than something then you are more powerful than it
I contest this principle because (iii) you forget to add this three important variables which are time, preparation and external sources.
(iii-a)You can't prove that "consuming the entire sector" will be as quick as the wave that destroy Ambria (something that is likely to have Ziost speed).
(iii-b) You can't prove that "consuming the entire sector" will hapened because of a sheer multi- star-system drain and not because of a complex ritual which have been prepared for decades or even centuries.
(iii-c) You can't prove that the spirits weren't amped by the remains of the ritual energy.
Lets not forget the principle (iv): For feat B to be above feat A, feat B must happened happened at best in the same circumstances (which include preparation, time and external context) than feat A.
As a result of (iii) and (iv) I can affirm with certainty that (v): there is no possibility to use your general principle in this case.
Based on (i), (ii) and (v) I logically deduced that: you cannot prove that the Sith spirits were more powerful than the Ambria ritual.
*GENERAL CONCLUSION*
(Congrats for those who read me up to this point)
Through this all demonstration I've tried to be as accurate and precise as possible and to precisely demonstrate my opinion.
From this, it remains that:
- Bane isn't capped because of his unability to defend himself from the tendrils
- Cognus' scaling putting Bane above the energy from the Ambria ritual is still valid
- Thon didn't use his sheer power to defeat the siths spirits
- The power on Ambria when Thon arrived wasn't the same than the one when the rituals was at its pinacle.
- There is no proof for the spirit to be more powerful than the Ambria ritual.
Now for those who are interrested you can find a link below to an CaV of @Master Azronger where he scale Bane's power. Even though I personnaly disagree with it this scaling puts Bane far above anything that Thon have (even if I agree with: Thon >> Sith spirits of Ambria >> Ambrian ritual energies >> Freedon Nadd or >> mega-amped Naga Sadow.). And sorry for you @LadyKulvax but this scaling is way more solid that yours.
Bane power overview
- AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four
Re: Thon vs Darth Bane
October 22nd 2020, 8:40 am
Given this is an enormous wall of text, like something you'd expect from the Ant vs Azronger Super Fight, I'll address this when I have enough time to formulate a full response. I've been operating entirely on the basis that we weren't entering essay-level debating.
Though, you should've known from reading my blogs that this is like poking a bear with a stick.
Though, you should've known from reading my blogs that this is like poking a bear with a stick.
- xoltholLevel Five
Re: Thon vs Darth Bane
October 22nd 2020, 10:50 am
@LadyKulvax Take your time... I've only written a "wall of text" because it seems that you failed to precisely understand what I mean in my previous arguments.
- xoltholLevel Five
Re: Thon vs Darth Bane
October 22nd 2020, 12:19 pm
@Sith Archivist Can you prove that Thon > Sadow ?
Primarch
Re: Thon vs Darth Bane
October 22nd 2020, 12:33 pm
@xolthol
Read my answer on Vodo vs Tulak Hord
Read my answer on Vodo vs Tulak Hord
- xoltholLevel Five
Re: Thon vs Darth Bane
October 22nd 2020, 4:23 pm
@Sith Archivist I've just destroyed this pseudo scaling in my (huge) response to LadyKulvax
- AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four
Re: Thon vs Darth Bane
October 22nd 2020, 7:31 pm
Stop saying you've destroyed anything. I've countered every single thing you've said so far and your attempt to win by just encyclopedia posting isn't going to help.
- xoltholLevel Five
Re: Thon vs Darth Bane
October 23rd 2020, 2:18 am
LadyKulvax wrote:Stop saying you've destroyed anything. I've countered every single thing you've said so far and your attempt to win by just encyclopedia posting isn't going to help.
- AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four
Re: Thon vs Darth Bane
October 23rd 2020, 11:10 am
I'm not following with your numerical points because I have never once had the desire to argue this as if it is a full-blown debate. So you're getting this.
1.'Bane's knowledge vs. power'
See the problem here is that you've claimed this has something to do with a lack of knowledge on Bane's part and that the power part is irrelevant because of this. Yet:
She literally calls on power from Ambria itself and via sorcery gives them a corporeal form of pure dark side energy. This is very clear. There's an obvious problem here and it's not something you've been able to address. But first:
And in your own blog challenging Banite scaling, which you linked to above, so clearly still hold to, you claim:
But also, and you can consider this a reply to the Cognus part of the argument, you claim that:
So first of all, we have the literal power of Ambria being manipulated by Zannah into a corporeal state. Secondly, that power is capable of absorbing a desperate and pain-empowered Bane's Force lightning, as if it is nothing.
Next, we have your claim that Zannah could only defeat Bane because she was amped by Ambria. And also, the claim that Bane as of Path of Destruction prior to Ruusan, is 'another league of power' above the entire Ambria ritual at what you say is its most powerful point.
So you're essentially simultaneously claiming that Zannah because of a fraction of Ambria's power overwhelmed prime Darth Bane and yet simultaneously that Darth Bane prior to the final battle of Ruusan, and thus prior to his prime state in POD is literally a league above the entire power of the ritual.
First of all, Zannah was no more or less amplified by Ambria than Bane was. So obviously the difference in power you refer to in your blog is actually a reference to the very feat we have been discussing this entire time.
Which is literally contradictory. How can Bane as of DOE be simultaneously so far beyond the Ambria ritual that it's just absolutely irrelevant to him and yet Zannah beat that Bane by drawing on a fraction of Ambria's power?
You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You're going to have to choose which it is.
Which plays into the fact that this is all absolutely about power. Zannah uses sorcery to give corporeal form to an external power source, which can absorb Bane's Force lightning. Probably Bane's most powerful lightning discharge ever given the pain he can draw on mixed with the desperation to stop these things that he himself claims is insanely above any other pain he's ever felt, including feeling his own concentrated raw power backfire on him which nearly kills him as well as a plethora of other things:
Funny, that quote seems particularly similar to another quote that we've been discussing:
Drawing comparisons would be fun, but I think I'll take on this point. The quote doesn't just end here:
Beyond the actual physical pain, Bane is nearly overwhelmed by a brief touch of one of these tendrils because he gets to feel what they actually are. This pure dark side energy is literally described by him as not only being the raw heat of the dark side but beyond that, it is a literal description of what kind of power it is and how it almost kills him just by touching him. It is beyond any pain he has felt previously but far worse than that it enters his very essence, both his mind and spirit. He considers it to be beyond, by far, anything he's felt previously.
There's really no way to argue this. The tendril's own power not only can absorb his power but feels beyond anything he had felt before, not just by comparison of physical pain but mentally and spiritually.
2.'Thon vs Ambria'
Honestly, I don't know what you were thinking when you wrote this. But let's talk about Thon. Thon's entire reason to go to Ambria is because the will of the Force itself sent him to the planet to stop the spirits threatening the sector and better yet cleanse it.
Why exactly are you contending his ability to defeat the spirits? Because first of all, his mission isn't to duke it out with the spirits but to cleanse the planet and stop the spirits for good.
Second of all, you're claiming that he wasn't being attacked by all of them at once even though that's exactly what they do when they repeat their attack the final time which is how they all get trapped:
Like... they didn't change tactic. They'd been attacking him over and over again and they hadn't stopped when it came to the last time. That was the entire problem in the first place. They kept attacking over and over and he couldn't keep his defenses up forever. He has no more time to just prep his attack than he had between any of the other times they attacked.
Furthermore your argument that 'lattice-work' implies some form of preparation; which as I just showed he couldn't have had, is entirely disproven by basic descriptions of wall of light:
As you can see 'lattice-work of light side energy' is just another description fitting the other descriptions of Wall of Light. Creating a wall of light isn't an instant attack like a Force push. That is by no means an indication of some built-up power.
Last but not least, we have a quote stating outright that he contained both the spirits and the energy which you've ignored:
It states right here that he 'defeated potent spirits' and 'contained the sinister energy'. The context and statement make it very clear that this was simultaneously done.
3.Ambria's ritual
You make the claim that the Sith would've been involved in the ritual when numerous times it's stated in scans I've already provided, that the Sorceress herself conducted the ritual alone atop the Monolith. Their energies couldn't be relevant to the power the Sorceress calls upon initially.
You further try to appeal to the 'unleashed wave of Force energy' meaning that the power dissipated gradually through what it did and that it further dissipated upon 'further warping the landscape.' Yet 'warping the landscape' 'further' as the quote says, is a direct statement saying the energies further corrupted Ambria which is what I'm saying.
The ritual Force wave 'destroyed all living things' and the energy in the soil is stated to have 'killed all living things'. So the fact that it 'suffused into the soil' and 'further warped the landscape' is essentially insurmountable evidence that the full power of the ritual wave was absorbed by the planet.
Also, the mere fact that the spirits by the point Thon turns up were threatening to consume numerous star systems just massively dwarfs planetary surface warping and wiping out the life on said surface. By a comparison of power, it is absolutely evident that the spirits are collectively > the power summoned by the Sorceress. And yet as I've proven, Thon overcame both at the same time.
I'm just not gonna touch the idea that Sith spirits are amped by their anchors. Because any basic research into Sith spirits will tell you that an anchor is just the means by which they continue to pervade in the physical world and aren't consumed by the void.
See, with every single time you have me reply, it becomes ever more obvious just how far beyond Bane, Thon truly is.
1.'Bane's knowledge vs. power'
See the problem here is that you've claimed this has something to do with a lack of knowledge on Bane's part and that the power part is irrelevant because of this. Yet:
Dynasty of Evil wrote:Instead, she let it flow through her, drawing it from the soil and stone of Ambria itself. She called to power buried for centuries, summoning it up to the surface in wispy tendrils of dark smoke snaking up from the sand.
She literally calls on power from Ambria itself and via sorcery gives them a corporeal form of pure dark side energy. This is very clear. There's an obvious problem here and it's not something you've been able to address. But first:
Dynasty of Evil wrote:Bane unleashed violet lightning from his fingers, but when the bolts struck the sinewy black forms they were absorbed with no apparent effect. They were made of pure dark side energy, and there was no way he could harm them.
And in your own blog challenging Banite scaling, which you linked to above, so clearly still hold to, you claim:
But also, and you can consider this a reply to the Cognus part of the argument, you claim that:
Xolthol wrote:As a result I can affirm with certainty that: Bane power is another league above the power of the Ambria ritual.
So first of all, we have the literal power of Ambria being manipulated by Zannah into a corporeal state. Secondly, that power is capable of absorbing a desperate and pain-empowered Bane's Force lightning, as if it is nothing.
Next, we have your claim that Zannah could only defeat Bane because she was amped by Ambria. And also, the claim that Bane as of Path of Destruction prior to Ruusan, is 'another league of power' above the entire Ambria ritual at what you say is its most powerful point.
So you're essentially simultaneously claiming that Zannah because of a fraction of Ambria's power overwhelmed prime Darth Bane and yet simultaneously that Darth Bane prior to the final battle of Ruusan, and thus prior to his prime state in POD is literally a league above the entire power of the ritual.
First of all, Zannah was no more or less amplified by Ambria than Bane was. So obviously the difference in power you refer to in your blog is actually a reference to the very feat we have been discussing this entire time.
Which is literally contradictory. How can Bane as of DOE be simultaneously so far beyond the Ambria ritual that it's just absolutely irrelevant to him and yet Zannah beat that Bane by drawing on a fraction of Ambria's power?
You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You're going to have to choose which it is.
Which plays into the fact that this is all absolutely about power. Zannah uses sorcery to give corporeal form to an external power source, which can absorb Bane's Force lightning. Probably Bane's most powerful lightning discharge ever given the pain he can draw on mixed with the desperation to stop these things that he himself claims is insanely above any other pain he's ever felt, including feeling his own concentrated raw power backfire on him which nearly kills him as well as a plethora of other things:
Dynasty of Evil wrote:Once, orbalisks had fused themselves to his body with a burning chemical compound so intense it had nearly driven him mad. Ten years ago they had been removed when Bane's flesh had been literally cooked by a concentrated blast of his own violet lightning. During her interrogation, Serra had pumped him full of a drug that had felt like it was eating him alive from the inside. But the excruciating pain he felt from the mere touch of the dark side tendril was unlike anything Bane had ever experienced before.
Funny, that quote seems particularly similar to another quote that we've been discussing:
Dynasty of Evil wrote:Even though they were decades removed from the encounter, the Iktotchi sensed the raw power of the dark side emanating from him. It was like nothing she had seen or felt before, both terrifying and exhilarating
Drawing comparisons would be fun, but I think I'll take on this point. The quote doesn't just end here:
Dynasty of Evil wrote:The damage was far from life threatening, but it nearly sent Bane into shock. He fell hard to the ground, his jaw slack and his eyes rolling back into his head. His mind was reeling from the brief contact. The pain radiated through every nerve in his body, but what he felt went far beyond any mere physical sensation. It was not the raw heat of the dark side but rather the empty chill of the void itself spreading through him. It touched every synapse in his mind, it clawed at the core of his spirit. In that instant he tasted utter annihilation, and felt the true horror of absolute nothingness. Somehow he managed to stay conscious, and when the next tentacle coiled in he was able to scramble to his feet and roll out of the way. His wounded shoulder was still throbbing, but the hollow darkness that had threatened to overwhelm him had faded, allowing him to ignore the pain.
Beyond the actual physical pain, Bane is nearly overwhelmed by a brief touch of one of these tendrils because he gets to feel what they actually are. This pure dark side energy is literally described by him as not only being the raw heat of the dark side but beyond that, it is a literal description of what kind of power it is and how it almost kills him just by touching him. It is beyond any pain he has felt previously but far worse than that it enters his very essence, both his mind and spirit. He considers it to be beyond, by far, anything he's felt previously.
There's really no way to argue this. The tendril's own power not only can absorb his power but feels beyond anything he had felt before, not just by comparison of physical pain but mentally and spiritually.
2.'Thon vs Ambria'
Honestly, I don't know what you were thinking when you wrote this. But let's talk about Thon. Thon's entire reason to go to Ambria is because the will of the Force itself sent him to the planet to stop the spirits threatening the sector and better yet cleanse it.
Why exactly are you contending his ability to defeat the spirits? Because first of all, his mission isn't to duke it out with the spirits but to cleanse the planet and stop the spirits for good.
Second of all, you're claiming that he wasn't being attacked by all of them at once even though that's exactly what they do when they repeat their attack the final time which is how they all get trapped:
Tales of the Jedi Companion wrote:Thon swam out to the middle of Lake Natth and surrendered himself to the dark side. But as the Sith spirits converged on his limp form he lashed out with the Force, ensnaring his enemies in a lattice-work of light-side energy.
Like... they didn't change tactic. They'd been attacking him over and over again and they hadn't stopped when it came to the last time. That was the entire problem in the first place. They kept attacking over and over and he couldn't keep his defenses up forever. He has no more time to just prep his attack than he had between any of the other times they attacked.
Furthermore your argument that 'lattice-work' implies some form of preparation; which as I just showed he couldn't have had, is entirely disproven by basic descriptions of wall of light:
Champions of the Force wrote:The Jedi trainees stepped closer together, cinching the circle around the trapped shadowy form. The nebulous glow around the new Jedi Knights grew brighter, a luminous fog that joined them in an unbroken ring, a solid band of light forged by the power of the Force within them.
The glow continued to brighten as the synergy between the trainees grew more powerful, weaving threads to reinforce the weak spots, to emphasize their strengths.
As you can see 'lattice-work of light side energy' is just another description fitting the other descriptions of Wall of Light. Creating a wall of light isn't an instant attack like a Force push. That is by no means an indication of some built-up power.
Last but not least, we have a quote stating outright that he contained both the spirits and the energy which you've ignored:
It states right here that he 'defeated potent spirits' and 'contained the sinister energy'. The context and statement make it very clear that this was simultaneously done.
3.Ambria's ritual
You make the claim that the Sith would've been involved in the ritual when numerous times it's stated in scans I've already provided, that the Sorceress herself conducted the ritual alone atop the Monolith. Their energies couldn't be relevant to the power the Sorceress calls upon initially.
You further try to appeal to the 'unleashed wave of Force energy' meaning that the power dissipated gradually through what it did and that it further dissipated upon 'further warping the landscape.' Yet 'warping the landscape' 'further' as the quote says, is a direct statement saying the energies further corrupted Ambria which is what I'm saying.
The ritual Force wave 'destroyed all living things' and the energy in the soil is stated to have 'killed all living things'. So the fact that it 'suffused into the soil' and 'further warped the landscape' is essentially insurmountable evidence that the full power of the ritual wave was absorbed by the planet.
Also, the mere fact that the spirits by the point Thon turns up were threatening to consume numerous star systems just massively dwarfs planetary surface warping and wiping out the life on said surface. By a comparison of power, it is absolutely evident that the spirits are collectively > the power summoned by the Sorceress. And yet as I've proven, Thon overcame both at the same time.
I'm just not gonna touch the idea that Sith spirits are amped by their anchors. Because any basic research into Sith spirits will tell you that an anchor is just the means by which they continue to pervade in the physical world and aren't consumed by the void.
See, with every single time you have me reply, it becomes ever more obvious just how far beyond Bane, Thon truly is.
- xoltholLevel Five
Re: Thon vs Darth Bane
October 23rd 2020, 2:27 pm
@LadyKulvax I'm litteraly speechless... Your entire post isn't countering anything that I've said. It is just baseless claim. I'm really sad for you: despite all of the evidence that I have provided you, you keep interpreting sources and material only in the way that interrest you. You don't even try to modified a bit your claim....
- Primarch
Re: Thon vs Darth Bane
October 23rd 2020, 3:27 pm
@xolthol
I've read your response and I still can't see Thon being less powerful than Bane given that Sadow > Tenebrous.
Allow me to explain why.
Firstly, Sadow should dwarf Bane given his superiority over Tenebrous.
Banite scaling chain up to Tenebrous:
Bane < Zannah < Cognus < Cognus' apprentice < Vectivus' master < Vectivus < Guile < Gravid < Gean < Gean's apprentice < Ramage < Tenebrous' master < Tenebrous
Tenebrous is clearly a lot more powerful than Bane given how Bane is buried under many the entire Banite line whereas Tenebrous scales above them all barring Plagueis and Sidious.
Then we have to consider the magnitude in which the apprentices surpass their masters. Cognus before she even began training has been said to be a threat to Bane.
A fully trained Cognus should already be far above Bane and the gap between her and Tenebrous should be even larger.
Now let's analyse Sadow.
Sadow is vastly sub Nadd:
Vodo Baas was able to fight Kun evenly before Kun ignited his second blade.
I've read your response and I still can't see Thon being less powerful than Bane given that Sadow > Tenebrous.
Allow me to explain why.
Firstly, Sadow should dwarf Bane given his superiority over Tenebrous.
Banite scaling chain up to Tenebrous:
Bane < Zannah < Cognus < Cognus' apprentice < Vectivus' master < Vectivus < Guile < Gravid < Gean < Gean's apprentice < Ramage < Tenebrous' master < Tenebrous
Tenebrous is clearly a lot more powerful than Bane given how Bane is buried under many the entire Banite line whereas Tenebrous scales above them all barring Plagueis and Sidious.
Then we have to consider the magnitude in which the apprentices surpass their masters. Cognus before she even began training has been said to be a threat to Bane.
Dynasty of Evil wrote: The soldiers were nothing to him; it was the Iktotchi he was interested in now. She was the only opponent who posed any real threat.
A fully trained Cognus should already be far above Bane and the gap between her and Tenebrous should be even larger.
Now let's analyse Sadow.
Sadow is vastly sub Nadd:
- Spoiler:
Exar Kun, Star Wars Galactic files wrote: This leads him to the tomb of a long-deceased Dark Lord named Freedon Nadd, a spirit who is destroyed by Kun after all of his magical knowledge is absorbed.
The Complete Star Wars Encylopedia wrote: Kun, Exar. Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith
- Spoiler:
- Spoiler:
Jedi vs Sith: the essential guide to the Force wrote: Exar Kun might not have risen to power so quickly had Odan-Urr destroyed the Sith Holocron when he'd had the chance.
Vodo Baas was able to fight Kun evenly before Kun ignited his second blade.
- Spoiler:
- Spoiler:
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