Darth Maul, Count Dooku, Darth Vader, Savage Opress and Galen Marek vs DE Darth Sidious

Sidious wormholes

Syndiciate wrote:

Azronger wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:

Azronger wrote:Galen's suicide blast was by far the most potent manifestation of power on the team and the Emperor's far weaker TFU incarnation endured it with no issue. He wins this.

I mean, having part of your face melted by a fraction of a blasts energy isn't exactly tanking it with no issue.

We've discussed this before on call and agreed to disagree there. There was no common ground to be had as our methodologies differed. Nothing productive would come out of going over this again, especially in a forum environment.

I mean, we agreed that the explosion's effect on Sidious was ultimately irrelevant as a result of the majority of its power deriving from Galen being in a state he wouldn't be in normally, but I don't know if we ever discussed how well Sidious took the blast. But I imagine a conversation on that topic would likely end up with neither of us changing our minds so I'm fine with leaving things here as I believe I've adequately laid out the extent of Sidious's injuries to the point that people can come to their own conclusions on how well he dealt with the blast.

We did discuss that. When I pointed out how in the game Sidious took no damage, you said the game engine simply couldn't show it. We went back and forth a bit but ultimately we couldn't come to an agreement on how to rationalize inconsistencies between different adaptations.

The conclusion from it obviously isn't that Galen's potential > Sidious' - that's for sure.

It's bewildering to think Sheev and Galen fought a 'desperate' Force exchange. But then Sheev tanks Galen going nuclear with no issue. It's almost as if one of those is mere interpretation of a scene and not a fact.

Syndicate

What exactly would Galen do to concentrate more power against Sheev when he blows up? A force sword or him somehow releasing all his power in a force push? He basically did a massive repulse point blank and as we saw throughout the games and works his force repulse was portrayed as more potent than force pushes.

Like I understand the mechanics behind an explosion, but it seems redundant when you don't put forth a viable alternative. It'd be like saying japanese kid skeletons didn't take a nuke because the entirety of the explosion wasn't focused in a person sized beam at them.

The only way I could see it being focused more on Sheev is inside of him tbh.

Thought I'd post this here. 

Sidiou's robe was also singed and his skin was burned before the explosion.

BreakofDawn wrote:Thought I'd post this here. 

Sidiou's robe was also singed and his skin was burned before the explosion.

Thanks for showing that Galen's casual lightning blasts are capable of burning Sidious's flesh. 

Never brought it up myself because I'm sure most people would simply claim that's how Sidious's deformed face looks normally but I appreciate your support nonetheless.

Quorian Debatist wrote:Syndicate

What exactly would Galen do to concentrate more power against Sheev when he blows up? A force sword or him somehow releasing all his power in a force push? He basically did a massive repulse point blank and as we saw throughout the games and works his force repulse was portrayed as more potent than force pushes.

Like I understand the mechanics behind an explosion, but it seems redundant when you don't put forth a viable alternative. It'd be like saying japanese kid skeletons didn't take a nuke because the entirety of the explosion wasn't focused in a person sized beam at them.

The only way I could see it being focused more on Sheev is inside of him tbh.

Target him specifically as opposed to releasing a blast of energy that goes out in all directions. His repulses are simply destructive Force energy moving outward in a sphere around him. He could have simply ramped up the energy that was engulfing himself and Sidious instead but that wouldn't have dealt with Vader and the stormtroopers who were about to gun down Juno and the Rebels ( which was his main concern ) and may well have killed him too.

That's not Dark Empire Sidious. DE Sidious is stated to be >> RotJ Sidious

LadyKulvax wrote:It's bewildering to think Sheev and Galen fought a 'desperate' Force exchange. But then Sheev tanks Galen going nuclear with no issue. It's almost as if one of those is mere interpretation of a scene and not a fact.

It's almost as if Sidious didn't manage to tank an attack that wasn't even directed at him. It's almost as if biased interpretations don't override canon. Oh wait...

Syndiciate wrote:

Quorian Debatist wrote:Syndicate

What exactly would Galen do to concentrate more power against Sheev when he blows up? A force sword or him somehow releasing all his power in a force push? He basically did a massive repulse point blank and as we saw throughout the games and works his force repulse was portrayed as more potent than force pushes.

Like I understand the mechanics behind an explosion, but it seems redundant when you don't put forth a viable alternative. It'd be like saying japanese kid skeletons didn't take a nuke because the entirety of the explosion wasn't focused in a person sized beam at them.

The only way I could see it being focused more on Sheev is inside of him tbh.

Target him specifically as opposed to releasing a blast of energy that goes out in all directions. His repulses are simply destructive Force energy moving outward in a sphere around him. He could have simply ramped up the energy that was engulfing himself and Sidious instead but that wouldn't have dealt with Vader and the stormtroopers who were about to gun down Juno and the Rebels ( which was his main concern ) and may well have killed him too.

What is this sort of move based on exactly? Can you explain how this would beat setting off a large scale explosion in Sheev's face?

Or are you implying that Starkiller maintains a field around himself and Sheev while he releases set amounts of power, or even maintains the field to supress the power while he dies and loses all control of his powers but the field maintains somehow?

Can you provide examples or a more in-depth explanation preferably based off something Starkiller has done? I'm a little confused

Quorian Debatist wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:

Quorian Debatist wrote:Syndicate

What exactly would Galen do to concentrate more power against Sheev when he blows up? A force sword or him somehow releasing all his power in a force push? He basically did a massive repulse point blank and as we saw throughout the games and works his force repulse was portrayed as more potent than force pushes.

Like I understand the mechanics behind an explosion, but it seems redundant when you don't put forth a viable alternative. It'd be like saying japanese kid skeletons didn't take a nuke because the entirety of the explosion wasn't focused in a person sized beam at them.

The only way I could see it being focused more on Sheev is inside of him tbh.

Target him specifically as opposed to releasing a blast of energy that goes out in all directions. His repulses are simply destructive Force energy moving outward in a sphere around him. He could have simply ramped up the energy that was engulfing himself and Sidious instead but that wouldn't have dealt with Vader and the stormtroopers who were about to gun down Juno and the Rebels ( which was his main concern ) and may well have killed him too.

What is this sort of move based on exactly? Can you explain how this would beat setting off a large scale explosion in Sheev's face?

Or are you implying that Starkiller maintains a field around himself and Sheev while he releases set amounts of power, or even maintains the field to supress the power while he dies and loses all control of his powers but the field maintains somehow?

Can you provide examples or a more in-depth explanation preferably based off something Starkiller has done? I'm a little confused

The potency of the explosion and the potency of the energies that are affecting Sidious are based solely on the power being provided by Galen. The difference is, Galen can ensure that the majority of that power is concentrated on Sidious as opposed to spread out over an area that covers hundreds of meters with the latter. 

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you talk about a "field." Could you clarify for me? I'm a bit confused on that point.

Just to quote an official scientific website: 


Blast wave: When a bomb explodes, the area around the explosion becomes overpressurized, resulting in highly compressed air particles that travel faster than the speed of sound. This wave will dissipate over time and distance and will exist only for a matter of milliseconds. This initial blast wave inflicts the most damage. When this blast wave reaches a structure or person, two things will initially happen. First, the person will feel the force of the blast, which is the primary and initial impact of the shockwave. This will damage a structure or body on impact.


Meaning Sidious tanked the worst of the blast:


This wave will dissipate over time and distance and will exist only for a matter of milliseconds. 



So actually, being at ground zero of the explosion would mean Sheev took the worst of the blast and still only suffered light burns (not to mention that he didn't expect the suicide attack). Galen had zero control over that kind of energy considering that it resulted from Oneness, which is not something he can just slip into. 


Also:


This thermal energy creates a large fireball, the heat of which can ignite ground fires that can incinerate an entire small city. Convection currents created by the explosion suck dust and other ground materials up into the fireball, creating the characteristic mushroom-shaped cloud of an atomic explosion.The detonation also immediately produces a strong shock wave that propagates outward from the blast to distances of several miles, gradually losing its force along the way. Such a blast wave can destroy buildings for several miles from the location of the burst.



And, if we were to compare it to the physics of an nuclear bomb for example:


This circle shows the maximum radius of the fireball. In a fission bomb, the fireball burns 10,000 times hotter than the surface of the sun and is hot enough to ignite the fusion reaction in a hydrogen bomb.
In the first millionth of a second after detonation, the bomb materials heat up to extreme temperatures. The fireball forms immediately from the burning bomb residue, and it emits an enormous amount of energy as x-rays, light, and heat, expanding out as it cools. Anything—or anyone—inside the fireball would be vaporized in an instant.

 

Considering Rahm and Juno are able to have a full fledged conversation about Starkiller before taking off when we're shown the explosion is about to engulf the Rogue Shadow, this can only mean one of two things.

1. The Force energy released by Galen does not function like a conventional explosion as it was not expanding fast enough to engulf the Rogue Shadow during Rahm and Juno's conversation.

2. The energy DID engulf the Rogue Shadow but did not possess the destructive energy necessary to overcome the Rogue Shadow's shields, spread out across such a large area of space as it was. 

Also, being in the area that the blast would have been the most potent is not equivalent to taking a majority of the blast's power. It simply means that you're taking as much energy occupying the space that you do as is physically possible. Which is still only a fraction of the attack's total output when you consider the very edge of the explosion is shown to cover hundreds of meters in every direction.

I honestly have no idea what you referencing a nuclear bomb's effects either. Obviously Sidious isn't going to be affected by an explosion in the same way that a normal human would and obviously nuclear fission is going to effect an area differently then the release of Force energy.

Syndiciate wrote:The potency of the explosion and the potency of the energies that are affecting Sidious are based solely on the power being provided by Galen. The difference is, Galen can ensure that the majority of that power is concentrated on Sidious as opposed to spread out over an area that covers hundreds of meters with the latter. 

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you talk about a "field." Could you clarify for me? I'm a bit confused as well.

That's based on him having some control over his powers. Your idealogy is putting you in control of his powers and assuming Starkiller was somehow niggardly with his application of powers because to you literally exploding outwards is not an energy efficient display. This is assuming that he can release the entirety of his powers in one direction in an instant which I've seen no basis. And it's also assuming he had some sort of control over this explosion when the narration makes note that he basically saw it as opposed to felt it.

"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava.

He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the observation dome. A glowing bubble of fire tore the stormtroopers to shreds and engulfed Vader and the Emperor. Shrapnel filled the air like dust caught in the beam of the Death Star's powerful laser.


If your basis is this sudden power came to him the instant it released, then that's a sudden power that he had no idea what it would do. It also only came to him because he lashed out at the Troopers; which means it couldn't have happened solely against Sheev per this logic. In the context of the story it would have only happened had he attacked the Troopers, so it seems very niggly to try and recontextualize this entire power as something directed at only Sheev with the same force as the totality of his powers.

But that's aside from the point. Either way, it was portrayed as a sizable power increase and it came in the way of a giant repulse set off an arm's length at best from Sheev's face. Starkiller's repulses were displayed as above his normal attacks in terms of collateral damage throughout the games and works; Shaak Ti, The Clones fight, the Salvation, etc. So what we have is Starkiller being far and away more powerful than he's ever been, releasing the entirety of his power in his most destructive usage, and we're supposed to penalize the output because it wasn't a force push or something - things that again weren't portrayed on the level of his repulse in the games.

Going back to the explosion, it's important to note again that Starkiller had no control over it. Which means that as far as we know, this is the only way he can release said powers. Especially when it builds from inside of him and explodes outward. His body could not contain that power in a way to safely release it in one direction. He did not have the ability to load it into one spirit bomb or send a steady kamehameha wave out. It all came out at once because he couldn't control it.

Now while you may take some solace into the idea that it still may not have been his entire power; it means that Starkiller CAN'T attack Sheev with a more intense attack. Niggling it down into small percentages doesn't change the fact that said attack can only go off in one way per the source material. There is no viable way he directs that energy any better than what he did.

Even if we lend you some concessions that energy escaped from too many angles that weren't directed at Sheev, that still doesn't mean Starkiller can do better with that same level of power. That limitation will persist regardless.

Whittling it down as much as you can still has a super amped Galen exploding the totality of his powers in Sheev's face in the form of a bomb like force repulse. He can't replicate that without that "oneness" amp and there lacks a more viable release of that power per the limitations provided. The idea that he releases it all in an instant in one direction also seems odd when it's based on him exploding because he had so much power. Hence why I asked for some examples in canon of such a thing happening.

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As for what you said, no, I doubt he can. As we went over, it was an uncontrolled burst that Starkiller basically had an out of body experience over as soon as he felt it in his bones. He didn't feel himself releasing that power, it just grew to critical mass and exploded outwards. Couple that with it only appearing because he tried to save his friends and per the storyline it can't have happened any other way. Per him going kablooey, it casts doubt on him sending the majority his way. And I mean when he blows up in Sheev's face, it's kind of weird to think that he should send more energy in said direction. It's not like he was at the edge of the blast field and erected a shield against a mile sized domed explosion. It originated from his location. You can't direct a bomb blast anymore against a person than what Starkiller did unless he placed it inside Sheev. And said bomb blast only niggled Sheev, so it's hard to see how the same level of power would do more against a vastly more powerful Sheev even if your objections withstand. He'd be better off using any additional power cutting Sheev up with his saber.

As for the field, I assumed you thought some sort of sphere barrier encasing the two were a possibility. Thereby trapping all the energy within a dome much like what happened to Bane. Issue with that would be maintaining it after he died of course, but I could buy it if someone else erected it. But no, that wasn't it.

I'm just not down with the thinking that Starkiller could have done different without an alternative rooted in canon. I see Starkiller's case as unique and don't see him as any different than a bomb set to explode. It's basically like asking a nuke to turn into a laser beam that utilizes that same pool of energy in an instant beam.

I get what you're saying, I truly do. It's just that the novel gives no other way imo. It's even harder to see it in your light considering all the repulse wank that surrounds Starkiller as well. Even with all your ducks in a row, it's still a level or three above what he can accomplish in this thread to top it all off.

Phonepost turned out longer than I intended too.