SS - Super Fight III - Darth Vader (Azronger) vs Revan (DarthAnt66)

• Feats take precedent over directly contradicted statements. A feat indisputably showing X is greater than Y overrides a statement stating Y is greater than X.
  
• Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case will be made within the debate itself.
  
• The opinion of authors have no validity and cannot be used unless they are explicitly accepted into the continuity.
  
• All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.
  

• “In the space of only a few seconds,” Revan begins “spasming uncontrollably” and “collapse[s] to the ground” under the Shit Emperor’s assault. In contrast, Vader literally walks through the Galactic Emperor’s barrage for close to ten seconds never breaking stride, as seen from the movie (link).
  
• Revan “gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb” as well as “draw in and contain” the Shit Emperor’s lightning yet the result was the same. Vader “focused solely and sightlessly on his will” “to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor” while “ignoring” everything else, meaning that he was focusing all his energy into killing the Emperor rather than defending from his attack with a proper Force defense unlike Revan, which is made all the more clear by their brachial positions: Revan’s being an overt sign of tutaminsis while Vader’s being bereft of any defensive gestures, indicating the only Force shield he did have was likely an instinctive, subconscious one, much weaker than an active barrier.
  
• Revan’s skin “began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting” as soon as the lightning got through his defenses. Vader, while mortally wounded as per many sources, nonetheless didn’t look all that different from any of his other appearances without his helmet, indicating his wounds were less severe than Revan’s despite the Emperor’s lightning tearing all over his body “into his heart” and “penetrated his life-support and electrified Anakin’s organic remains” according to The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader meaning that his lesser, subconscious Force barrier is stronger than Revan at his most stalwart.
  
• The Shit Emperor continued to “pour more and more power” into his lightning even after Revan’s skin “began to boil and blister,” insinuating that the Shit Emperor wasn’t even at full strength when Revan fell under his might, as one obviously cannot add to something that is already at its zenith; the only way to do that would be under the conditions that the Sith Emperor wasn’t giving it his all in the initial clash. Vader on the other hand experienced “the full force of his Dark Master’s evil lightning” (link) whereas there is no indication whatsoever that the Shit Emperor went all-out on Revan.
  

I. THE WEAKNESS OF INFERIORS

A. CIRCUMSTANTIAL STRENGTH

The Official Star Wars Fact File 111 wrote:It was instinct and revelation, love for his son and hatred for the creature who was killing him, that gave Anakin Skywalker the strength to return, the strength to pick up the Emperor, to absorb the fatal energy, and to hurl Palpatine to his death in the depths of the Death Star.

B. LUKE SKYWALKER VS DARTH VADER

Star Wars Beware of the Sith wrote:Although Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force, their duels are more than just about physical strength.

Star Wars Jedi Battles wrote:Father and son were now equally strong with the Force and equally skilled with their lightsabers. But this battle was more than just physical strength and Force powers.

The Official Star Wars Fact File 111 wrote:The fight this time was far more balanced. Vader discovered that Luke was his match.

Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi script wrote:Luke and Vader are engaged in a man-to-man duel of lightsabers even more vicious than the battle on Bespin. But the young Jedi has grown stronger in the interim, and now the advantage shifts to him. Vader is forced back, losing his balance, and is knocked down the stairs. Luke stands at the top of the stairs, ready to attack.

Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi junior novelization wrote:On the Death Star, Luke and Darth Vader were engaged in a duel that was even more vicious than their battle on Cloud City. Luke had grown stronger since their last encounter, and his skill with his lightsaber had improved greatly. As they swung at each other in the Emperor’s throne room, Luke sensed the advantage had shifted to him.

Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi adult novelization wrote:For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City - not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.

Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi comic wrote:On the Death Star, father and son grimly clash! Brutally, aggressively, Darth Vader brings his full strength and power against the younger man. But unlike the first time they dueled in the carbon-freezing chamber of Bespin's Cloud City, this is a battle of equals. The young Jedi has grown in the interim, and if there is any true advantage, it seems to have shifted to him.

Star Wars Secrets of the Sith wrote:The second father-son duel took place on Emperor Palpatine’s second Death Star. Now more able to control the Force, Luke Skywalker was finally able to defeat his powerful father. But he was no match for the evil Emperor.

The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader wrote:Still lying against the bridge railing beside the elevator shaft, Vader watched the Emperor extend his gnarled fingers and unleash blinding bolts of blue lightning from his fingertips. The lightning struck Luke, who tried to deflect the crackling bands of energy, but was so overwhelmed that his body crumpled to the floor.

The Official Fact Files 120 wrote:Infuriated by Luke’s resilience against the dark side, the Emperor unleashed a deadly torrent of dark side lightning. Skywalker was powerless to resist the onslaught, and his life was fast draining away.

Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi script wrote:Blinding bolts of energy, evil lightning, shoot from the Emperor's hands at Luke. Even in his surprise, the young Jedi tries to use the Force to deflect them. At first he is half successful, but after a moment the bolts of energy are coming with such speed and power the young Jedi shrinks before them, his knees buckling . . . Although it would not have seemed possible, the outpouring of bolts from the Emperor's fingers actually increases in intensity, the sound screaming through the room. Luke's body writhes in pain.

C. CIRCUMSTANTIAL STRENGTH, CONT.

D. OBI-WAN KENOBI VS DARTH VADER

Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays wrote:The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; but this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was probably stronger than Vader. George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two.

Star Wars Jedi Battles wrote:This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker . . .

Star Wars Death Star wrote:Even as old and weak as Obi-Wan was, his technique was accomplished enough that a foolish move on Vader's part could still be fatal.

II. THE BOOK OF ANGER

“In the space of only a few seconds,” Revan begins “spasming uncontrollably” and “collapse[s] to the ground” under the Shit Emperor’s assault. In contrast, Vader literally walks through the Galactic Emperor’s barrage for close to ten seconds never breaking stride, as seen from the movie (link).

Vader “focused solely and sightlessly on his will” “to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor” while “ignoring” everything else, meaning that he was focusing all his energy into killing the Emperor rather than defending from his attack with a proper Force defense, unlike Revan, which is made all the more clear by their brachial positions: Revan’s being an overt sign of tutaminsis while Vader’s being bereft of any defensive gestures, indicating the only Force shield he did have was likely an instinctive, subconscious one, much weaker than an active barrier.

Vader, while mortally wounded as per many sources, nonetheless didn’t look all that different from any of his other appearances without his helmet, indicating his wounds were less severe than Revan’s despite the Emperor’s lightning tearing all over his body “into his heart” and “penetrated his life-support and electrified Anakin’s organic remains” according to The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader meaning that his lesser, subconscious Force barrier is stronger than Revan at his most stalwart.

Star Wars Darth Vader - A 3-D Reconstruction Log wrote:Excess heat is bled through the metal surface via radiator conduction pads, a system that preserves the helmet seal. Cooling units on the suit’s collar achieve a similar but more direct result. The bodysuit is made of cushioning fabrics with an outer layer of multi-ply fireproof material. Although not armored, the bodysuit provides some protection against combat damage and exposure to flames and corrosive gases, while still allowing an acceptable range of motion.

The Shit Emperor continued to “pour more and more power” into his lightning even after Revan’s skin “began to boil and blister,” insinuating that the Shit Emperor wasn’t even at full strength when Revan fell under his might, as one obviously cannot add to something that is already at its zenith; the only way to do that would be under the conditions that the Sith Emperor wasn’t giving it his all in the initial clash. Vader on the other hand experienced “the full force of his Dark Master’s evil lightning” (link) whereas there is no indication whatsoever that the Shit Emperor went all-out on Revan.

Now we’re getting into the second gem in the Return of the Jedi novelization: Darth Vader’s willpower. The text states that Vader “focused solely and sightlessly on his will - his will to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor.” Thus, it is abundantly clear that Vader’s strength of will was not only a primary factor in the Emperor’s death, but rather the only factor, at least as far as Vader’s conscious actions go. Obviously, succeeding in killing the most godlike Force entity to have ever graced the galaxy with his presence just by willing it so is a colossal feat, only surpassed by a few in the willpower department.

Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader fits into the exact same mold: his willpower is so great the Force is swept aside in his wake, and reality itself becomes subservient to him.

And no, this isn’t hyperbole; I’ve seen people arbitrarily latch on “hyperbole” to almost everything in this book for the simple reason that “Matthew Stover.” Not only is that not a valid reason, but by choosing to label something as hyperbole purely on personal whim would mean anyone could dismiss anything whenever they felt like it and debating wouldn’t function. A statement is only hyperbole if you can prove its implausibility when interpreted literally. If something works literally without issue, then it is to be taken at face value.

A. REBIRTH

B. GROWTH

C. STRENGTH

Revan, Star Wars The Old Republic - Shadow of Revan wrote:Of course, it's so obvious now. You have no idea what I am, what I've become. / You don't even begin to comprehend what I've become. / What I've become, you have no hope of stopping. I was a Dark Lord of the Sith. I was the Prodigal Knight. I was powerful--but I was also weak. Not anymore. Now I'm pure. Unburdened. I can finally have revenge on my jailer and save the galaxy doing it! I have the power, and you have nothing!

III. THE CREATION OF MONSTERS

A. VITIATE (SWTOR) >>> VITIATE (ZIOST)

1. PHYSICAL VITIATE (SWTOR) >>> SPIRIT VITIATE (SWTOR)

2. SPIRIT VITIATE (SWTOR) >>> SPIRIT VITIATE (NATHEMA)

3. CONCLUSION

B. REVAN (SWTOR) >>> VITIATE (ZIOST)

1. VITIATE (NOVEL) ≈ REVAN (NOVEL)

Star Wars The Old Republic - Revan wrote:His opponent stood perfectly still, focusing and channeling his power. At the last possible instant, the Emperor unleashed a wave of energy that swept Revan off his feet and sent him flying backward. Revan twisted in midair so that he was able to roll with the impact when he landed. He quickly sprang back to his feet and advanced again, moving more slowly this time.

Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia wrote:The Emperor created his first Voice after the legendary Jedi named Revan attempted to assassinate him on Dromund Kaas. Though Revan's plot failed, he approached within striking distance of the Emperor. To guard against further vulnerability, the Emperor created the Voice to deliver his orders while distancing himself from the forces that conspired against him. Centuries later, this very safeguard would save the Emperor once more.

Star Wars The Old Republic - Revan wrote:The Emperor created his first Voice after the legendary Jedi named Revan attempted to assassinate him on Dromund Kaas. Though Revan's plot failed, he approached within striking distance of the Emperor. To guard against further vulnerability, the Emperor created the Voice to deliver his orders while distancing himself from the forces that conspired against him. Centuries later, this very safeguard would save the Emperor once more.

There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward. He landed in a heap on the floor and Revan raced toward him.

2. VITIATE (SWTOR) ≈ REVAN (SWTOR)

3. CONCLUSION

4. POST SCRIPTUM

IV. SUMMARY

VADER'S STANDING NEXT TO SHEEV

The above statement reveals the specific source of Anakin’s strength against the Emperor was his overwhelming love for Luke and his absolute hatred for the Emperor. This circumstantial strength was only brought forth after seeing the Emperor torture his son: “Seeing his son having his life drained out of him by the Emperor clearly awoke something inside of Darth Vader” (Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File 111). Per the first quote, without these two conditions and the context that arose them, Anakin would not have had “the strength” to replicate the deed. Unless Darth Vader is utterly overwhelmed with lust and envy after seeing Revan’s luscious locks, his powers and intentions here will be noticeably distinct - and inferior.

As you already kindly quoted, “Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act - the only action possible; his last, if he failed” (Source: Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi adult novelization). In other words, on top of the “Applied Behavior Analysis,” Vader had gathered and focused his strength across the span of multiple “minutes” to destroy the Emperor. This renders it utterly non-applicable to combat.

Besides, the fact Anakin ignored the pain doesn’t mean he ignored all protection - shielding himself is inherently apart of “defeating the evil embodied in the Emperor.” Again quoting The Official Star Wars Fact File 111, “Love for his son and hatred for the creature who was killing him gave Anakin Skywalker the strength to absorb the fatal energy,” suggesting an active resistance. At the least, it’s baseless to assert Anakin’s slugging it with just a lesser Force barrier.

The above statement reveals that Ben Kenobi is significantly more powerful than Vader in not only A New Hope but also The Empire Strikes Back. While Luke advanced to a level two by The Empire Strikes Back, Vader remained static at a level four, indicating either lackluster growth or a vast difference between levels. Either way, there’s no plausible reality where Vader not only rapidly grew stronger than Ben, but also comparably powerful to the Emperor, in six months.

WILLPOWER

Except what you’re saying is demonstrably not true. Vader, despite willing it greatly, is unable to survive for long periods of time without his suit, to turn Luke to the dark side, to defeat Luke despite using “his full strength and power,” etc. Further, if reality itself becomes subservient to him, then how did Vader even die? Are almighty Sheev’s powers beyond reality times two?

While I have no issue with interpreting the Invisible Hand displays like that - I figure they’re momentary pulsations of his Father-level potential as his powers race out of control - it’s obvious Anakin can’t always bend reality to his will, which you seem to be arguing. That’s false - and renders your examples hyperbole - given Anakin cannot will Padme to live nor Obi-Wan to die.

Just like Krayt, Revan has his own “I’m more powerful than ever” speech in Shadow of Revan. With the split, Revan’s “hatred,” “strength,” and “focus” became physical Revan, whereas his “wisdom” detached and assumed a spirit. Thus, physical Revan is, truly, a “pure” and “unburdened” embodiment of Revan’s power, fueled, like Darth Sion, through will alone.

The foremost demonstration of this is the Temple of Sacrifice fight. Revan attempted to channel the energies of The Machine to effectively destroy all enemies, including armies of coalition forces, within a one-kilometer radius. Revan lost control of the power when ambushed by the coalition strike team, and the planet-razing energies overloaded and backlashed inside of him. While Force barriers are obviously ineffective to an internal explosion, Revan willed his body to stay together as the energies visibly erupted out of him. Thus, he’s clearly well beyond the domain of physical pain or second-degree burns as suffered by Vitiate in Revan, and there’s no indication the dark side nexus would change the nature of the feat - it may even amplify the internal energies.

SOR REVAN VS NOVEL REVAN

Consistently throughout Star Wars, Force users have grown more powerful after returning from the brink of death. Darth Krayt did (“Death is not an ending, boy - but it is a passageway to something greater I have been through death and conquered it. I have returned with my power multiplied”). Vitiate did (“With each rebirth, he grew stronger”). Darth Maul did (“Coming back from near death may have made the Sith Lord stronger”). The same logically applies for Revan.

TOR VITIATE VS REVAN

Vitiate, as of the vanilla The Old Republic, is exponentially more powerful than spirit Vitiate when he consumed Ziost.

Vitiate's inability to overpower Revan's defenses for three-hundred years

In contrast, Revan pulled “centuries of knowledge” from Vitiate (e.g. teleportation hax), subtly manipulated him into postponing a war he had planned for one-thousand years for another three-centuries, and, given the rapid development of events, presumably rather abruptly and forcefully persuaded Vitiate into initiating the Treaty of Coruscant.

However, given Vitiate drained Revan through the Force link established between them, and Revan realized the link could go both ways, it is likely Revan later began to directly drain Vitiate and the Dread Masters given, by the time he’s freed, he’s shocked to discover Meetra’s yet to become one with the Force.

SUMMARY

I. LUKE SKYWALKER VS DARTH VADER

The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader wrote:"You are unwise to lower your defenses," Vader said, as he brought his lightsaber up fast. With incredible speed, Luke reactivated his weapon to parry Vader's attack. Vader swung again and again, but Luke blocked each blow. Soon, Vader was breathing hard through his respirator. I can't let Luke defeat me, Vader thought. I won't let the Emperor have him!

A precise kick from Luke sent Vader over the edge of the elevated platform. Crashing upon the metal floor below, Vader roared as he felt a cybernetic cable snap in his right leg.

II. THE EMPEROR VS DARTH VADER

III. THE EMPEROR VS DARTH VADER: EXPANDED

Defeating the Emperor doesn’t inherently consist of protecting oneself (dafuq?); you just have to defeat the Emperor, but it doesn’t matter if you die in the progress. The Return of the Jedi novelization literally states Vader “focused solely and sightlessly on his will” “to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor.” That means he wasn’t focusing on shielding himself, denoting a lesser Force barrier. I explained all of this in my opener, and it appears you completely ignored it and deemed my arguments to be baseless when they are not*

It appears someone has reading comprehension issues. The statement you quoted differentiates between the past (A New Hope) and the present (The Empire Strikes Back) by stating that Ben “was” more powerful than Vader, and that Ben “was” a six, and that Vader “was” a four, but that Luke “is now” a two. In addition, the quote states that “Ben was probably” - not certainly - “stronger than Vader” and that he was “maybe” a six. If you wish to use such uncertain language to denote an absolute fact, you’ll also have to concede that Lucas has stated Vader to be “maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor” - something which you utterly ignored from my opener, for the record*. A Lucas statement from 2005 would obviously and per the debate rules retcon his ideas from 1980, so Vader would be relativistic to the Emperor regardless of his standing next to Ben Kenobi in A New Hope.

George Lucas, The Last Battle wrote:Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful. But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than him. So that isn't what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan.

Lawrence Kasdan and George Lucas, Star Wars The Annotated Screenplay wrote:My sense of the relationship is that the Emperor is much more powerful than Vader and that Vader is very much intimidated by him. Vader has dignity, but the Emperor In Jedi really has all the power."

"I didn't want Vader to be all-powerful. In the first film it was very easy to make him into some kind of superhero. But I decided not to do that.

There’s also the matter of feats, which override any and all quotes if contradicted, and the debate rules do not outline Lucas as an exception to this. Vader did endure the Emperor’s full potency long enough to end his life while weakened, displaying relativistic power to his Master.

He also fought equally with Galen Marek, who minutes after would go on to walk through the Emperor’s lightning which was fueled by his “desperation,” indicating the latter was using his full strength when facing Marek (link). These feats show that Vader can withstand the Emperor’s maximal power and also contend with other beings who can withstand the Emperor’s maximal power.

And Palpatine’s thoughts from The Essential Guide to Characters take place prior to many things seen in A New Hope such as the title of Grand Moff and the finished Death Star (link).

Thus, Vader, from the available evidence, was almost always right behind his Master’s tail regardless of the year, which would make sense considering that the Emperor mused in 19 BBY that “Vader’s real weaknesses were psychological rather than physical” and that “he would need to do everything in his power to shake Vader out of his despair and reawaken the incredible power within him.” The ways through which this would be achieved would be for Vader to “confront all his choices and disappointments” and harbor a “desire to overthrow his Master,” all of which happened at the end of the novel taking place in 19 BBY and would stay with him for the rest of his life, which the Emperor noted would be a perilous prospect for him (link).

Vader - The Ultimate Guide wrote:But Vader’s reconstruction was a mixed blessing for Palpatine. The Emperor had wanted an apprentice - he had not wanted a walking wound. Vader was barely able to stay alive without life support machinery and the brute force of the dark side. Because of his cyborg arms, Vader would never be able to hurl Force lightning. His suffocating body armor left him unable to perform the acrobatics that had made Darth Maul into the ultimate assassin . . .
In the Emperor’s eyes, Darth Vader was damaged. Palpatine secretly began looking for a replacement, expanding the ranks of his dark side adepts. From this pool of minor wizards and political sycophants, Palpatine hoped to raise the next Sith Lord.

Star Wars Jedi vs. Sith - The Essential Guide to the Force wrote:I regret Vader disappointed me early on when he allowed himself to be mutilated by Kenobi. Yes, Vader remained strong in the Force, but strong enough to succeed me? Never.

Vader - The Ultimate Guide wrote:Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever know.

The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader wrote:But because Palpatine was so incredibly powerful, and despite several attempts, Vader learned that he had no reason to believe he could ever defeat the elder Sith Lord.

Vader - The Ultimate Guide wrote:Vader, who was all too aware of the Sith “rule of two” that mandated a single master and single apprentice at any time, had his own designs on Luke. Palpatine’s omniscience, however, had changed the rules of engagement. Vader no longer dared to entertain thoughts of rebellion, not when the Emperor seemed more powerful than ever before.

IV. DARTH VADER'S WILLPOWER

I presume he died due to literally exhausting every last ounce of his power and will to defeating the Emperor? I mean, duh?

Regardless, you’re wrong, as later on in Revenge of the Sith Anakin feels more powerful than ever, which would include his reality-warping self (link).

To quickly answer your query as to why Anakin/Vader doesn’t will Padme to life, will Luke to lose etc., the answer is simply that I don’t know.

What kind of an answer is that, you ask?

Well, throughout Star Wars media, characters have been attributed powers and abilities that we rarely if ever see being utilized. The characters still possess the feats and accolades yet for some reason decide not to employ them to their fullest potential e.g. why doesn’t Palpatine spam all his powers against Yoda or Luke despite it making perfect sense to do so? That was just one example, for the record, and this applies to Revan as well, so I’d warn against opening that can of worms

V. THAT WEIRD SIDE TANGENT

Besides that Vader has survived through extensive periods with a malfunctioning respirator, died once, and willed himself back to life. Your claim is blatantly wrong.

Here is the feat in its entirety (link): Darth Vader first gets his chest panel damaged, but continues to function normally seemingly without any issue; he then goes to rest without his helmet, showing he is able to maintain his body without any life support while in a state of near-unconsciousness through sheer will; is ambushed and kills all his assailants with his standard efficiency while, to reiterate, not being sustained by his respiratory systems

Then with his chest panel still broken, continues to operate as he usually would, survives fires and a ship crash, fights some more, gets burned with a flamethrower

Is knocked unconscious, dies, cheats death by willing himself back to life

Gets pissed after a post-mortem visit from his wife, tears through the labyrinth, smashing pillars and walls, tanking grenade explosions and bringing down the cathedral with telekinesis, survives being buried alive for days; all without the help of his life support. When questioned by the Emperor as to how he survived, Vader simply responds: “The dark side gave me all I needed.

VI. ANAKIN SKYWALKER VS DARTH VADER

And to solidify my logic here, yes, Darth Vader in the suit has repeatedly been labelled more powerful than his pre-suit self.

George Lucas, Cult of Darth Vader wrote:And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That’s what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

VII. REVAN'S WILLPOWER

Where the hell does this idea of Revan holding his body together through sheer will even come from?

The Life and Legend Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:After Anakin died in his son's arms, Obi-Wan called out into the void, "Anakin."A moment later, Obi-Wan heard a familiar voice return from the darkness.

"Obi-Wan? Master, I'm so sorry. So very, very -"

"Anakin, listen carefully,"Obi-Wan interrupted. "You are in the netherworld of the Force, but if you ever wish to revisit corporeal space, then I still have one thing left to teach you. A way to become one with the Force. If you choose this path to immortality, then you must listen now, before your consciousness fades."

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Palpatine was forced to survive in the maddening, bodiless existence of the void. Through sheer will he retained his identity, crossing the gulf of space to again take up residence in his clone body.

I have watched the Temple of Sacrifice fight from a multitude of videos on YouTube, and have never seen a mention or a visual of any backlash or one-kilometer blast. Show me screenshots of every single thing you just said or I won’t believe a word of it and neither will the audience.

And regarding the Yavin nexus thing, assuming that some energies did indeed course through Revan, how the hell would the nexus amplify them? Another baseless claim*. I have never ever seen a Force nexus augment energies of inanimate objects; if such a thing is possible, it’s your burden to prove. In addition, you must also prove that the energies would only be amplified when they coursed through Revan’s body, which I find a hard time believing since the energies were constantly present and within the range of the nexus, being channelled by Revan per your own words.And to prove it, yes, Yavin IV is a hideously powerful dark side nexus during Shadow of Revan. Satele Shan states that the planet is on “another level entirely” compared to Oricon, a world “immeasurably strong with the dark side” (link). Thus, the nexus of Yavin IV would be unimaginably powerful, and bolster Revan inconceivably beyond his normal self, rendering virtually all of his feats during Shadow of Revan - including whatever willpower thing he may or may not have - wholly unusable.

VIII. REVAN'S POWER GROWTH

Only one of your examples actually supports the idea: Darth Krayt’s.

The Shit Emperor became stronger as Failkorion because he had just consumed Ziost, and the details of his other rebirths aren’t clear.The quote you cite for Darth Maul is not even definitive and it is the opinion of Jedi Master Salmara who hadn’t even met the revitalized Maul at that point. The Clone Wars: Sith Hunters, does state quite clearly, though, that Maul was “restored to his former power,” which actively contradicts your theory. Thus, you cannot draw any conclusions about Revan’s power level as of Shadow of Revan compared to his novel iteration.

In fact, the spirit of Light Revan, whom you use as an authoritative figure in your argument, also contradicted the idea of Dark Revan possessing strength in excess of his novel variant. Considering that you yourself describe his darker half as a “lunatic sociopath,” I’m more inclined to believe the lighter half which you yourself argued to be the embodiment of wisdom as opposed to Dark Revan being the embodiment of strength.

Spirit Revan and the Outlander, Star Wars The Old Republic - Shadow of Revan wrote:"Hatred fueled cunning, but burned out all wisdom. Without me, you could not see."

"He needs your wisdom, but you need his strength. His focus. / Strength is useless without wisdom to guide it."

Regarding your point about the growing ripples through the Force, you haven’t even proved they were caused by Revan* Oh, and you also haven’t proven that disturbances in the Force are even directly linked to a Force user’s strength rather than their other activities like Savage Opress going on a quest to find his long-lost brother Maul, which has absolutely nothing to do with his power in the Force.

IX. VITIATE VERSUS REVAN

Your analysis omits a crucial detail*: Ziost is a dark side nexus as per a variety of sources (link), and thus would amplify Vitiate’s spirit. You’ll have to prove physical Vitiate’s strength is beyond that which the nexus granted his spirit for you to have a ground to stand on in regards to claims that he or Revan can just death field a planet away. To clarify, yes, it’s possible for nexus-amped spirit Vitiate to be more powerful than physical Vitiate since he would only be that powerful on Ziost. Regaining his full power would require for him to be as strong as he normally was off-nexus too, which the weakened spirit Vitiate wasn’t. Nothing goes against the idea of the weakened spirit being that powerful when boosted by external factors, though.

Revan states that he only managed to endure as long as he did with the Jedi Exile’s aid (link). The task once again falls to you to prove Revan would have been able to resist until close to the events of the vanilla game without the Exile’s help. If you cannot prove Revan could have lasted that long on his own, no relativity to the Shit Emperor’s The Old Republic iteration can be established.

And unsurprisingly, this argument lacks context as well*. Revan was only able to manipulate the Shit Emperor’s thoughts, once again, with the Exile’s aid (link), and even then exclusively when the latter was distracted and “intently focused on something else” (link). It’s not something he can do on his own to the Shit Emperor when he’s actively fighting back.

X. THE NEW GOODS

A. LORD VIVICAR

B. ACT ONE BARSEN’THOR

C. CHILDREN OF THE EMPEROR

D. THE FIRST SON

The First Son codex, Star Wars The Old Republic wrote:The Jedi remained blind to the Emperor's children due to the presence of the First Son, the being who was first imprinted with the Emperor's power. While the First Son lived, the Emperor's secret army remained hidden and undetected beneath the Republic's nose. By the time of the Great War, hundreds of the Emperor's Children were embedded within the Republic. Devoted Jedi, loyal soldiers, and influential politicians all unknowingly served as the Emperor's spies and, when the Emperor willed, acted to tear down the Republic they held so dear.

E. ACT THREE BARSEN’THOR

F. THE DREAD MASTERS

G. REVAN

XI. CONCLUSION

I. THE PHANTOM REVAN

A) PLANET EATER

No, my analysis factored that in. As I stated, during the ritual of Nathema, “Vitiate sucked dry the entirety of the planet’s cosmic Force - unnaturally amplified to ‘the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see’.” Thus, Vitiate’s standard spirit already possesses the totality of a dark side nexus explicitly far more potent than Ziost. Any boost weakened spirit Vitiate received from simply being in the presence of the Ziost dark side nexus doesn’t remotely compensate.

That aside, no dark side nexus has ever shown the effects you are describing. You’re essentially arguing character X can go from being one-shotted by character Y (spirit unchained Vaylin versus spirit Valkorion) to likely one-shotting character Y (physical unchained Vaylin versus spirit Valkorion) by simply being on a moderately potent dark side nexus.

B) WILLPOWER

I absolutely do not buy you’ve never seen any quotes pertaining to the one kilometer-radius blast before.

I’m baffled by the first four sentences; I have no clue what you’re even responding to. As for your dark side nexus argument, it doesn’t make sense. The omnipresent dark side energies of Yavin 4 would be included in Revan's channel of energy. The “inconceivably powerful” nexus energies would likewise be apart of the “overloading” or “backlashing” against him.

C) REVAN VS THE SHIT EMPEROR

Revan states, “She gave me strength to resist all this time,” which is absolutely true. However, you ignore that Vitiate was actively Force draining Revan. Without an energy source to counteract the drain, Revan’s powers would quickly deplete, rendering him incapable of defending against Vitiate’s constantly-replenishing powers. Meetra explicitly functioned as that counterbalance: “As the Emperor fed off him, Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her.”

Meetra’s stream of energy “refreshed” and “restored” Revan “whenever he grew weak,” meaning Meetra’s not amplifying Revan’s powers, just returning them to its natural state. Meanwhile, Vitiate is, according to you, growing continuously stronger. Thus, it must be Revan’s own growth, clearly brought forth through nigh-endless usage of Force and exertion of will, that allows him to remain in lock-step with Vitiate. Otherwise, the power discrepancy between an equalized Revan and strengthening Vitiate would constantly expand until Vitiate’s powers far surpassed and completely overpowered Revan’s.

D) TELEPATHY

Dare I suggest a Sith Lord capable of dominating the minds of hundreds of Jedi and siphoning their powers might be comparable to Maul, Dooku, or Vader?

II. ATTACK OF THE APPRENTICE

A) THE CORELLIAN CORVETTE

B) KAZDAN PARATUS

C) THE FAUX JEDI TEMPLE

D) SHAAK TI

III. REVENGE OF THE ACCOLADES

Per Lucas, because of the injuries Vader suffered on Mustafar, “From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor.” This indicates both that pre-suit Vader was as strong as the Emperor, and that post-suit Vader never again achieved such a level of power.

Lucas is discussing Vader's strength and notes that he's not as strong as the Emperor. Still discussing strength, Lucas compounds that notion by saying Vader's strength is now like Maul or Dooku. We can infer that Lucas isn't just randomly noting that Maul and Dooku also aren't as strong as the Emperor - a self-evident fact - in a paragraph all about Vader's strength. That would be completely off-topic. Rather, Lucas is clearly using Maul and Dooku as a reference point for Vader's new powers. That's the only realistic way to interpret it.

I think it’s hilarious you don’t stop and consider if you’re misinterpreting events; instead, you default into arguing that almost a dozen major sources are wrong and retconned into oblivion.

IV. A NEW MASTERY

Equally? Once Galen Marek “understands a better way to kill” and proclaims, “I don't need to hate you in order to beat you,” the fight becomes completely and increasingly one-sided. The text even marks the shift: “With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot,” strikes Vader repeatedly in a short span of time, then telekinetically dominates him.

1. Darth Vader is, by feats, more powerful than the Emperor’s Revenge of the Sith incarnation, the most powerful Sith Lord in history and an equal of Anakin Skywalker, the most powerful Jedi in history. Per the debate rules, feats are the supreme authority as far as evidence goes, trumping all contradictory statements, even ones from George Lucas.
   
2. The fact that he can go from being significantly less powerful than TFU Palpatine to being significantly more powerful than TFU Palpatine in just one year (link) proves Darth Vader does grow in lockstep with the Emperor. His annual growth rate would thus be humongous and essentially render everything prior to Return of the Jedi as low showings for him.
   

V. VADER STRIKES BACK

Take off your tinfoil hat. In a post of dozens of points, sometimes some slip through. I didn’t intentionally “ignore” your twenty percent argument.

In fact, I love when members cite that. By itself, it’s impossible to discern what being eighty percent of the Emperor means; we have no reference point. Is zero percent a normal human? Is fifty percent a Jedi padawan? Considering the context isn’t even meant to hype up Vader - just read the full quote, as posted below - a full twenty percent difference can easily mean a tremendous gap in power.

Also, it’s curious you center your argument around the ambiguity of “maybe” when it’s referring to Ben relative to Vader, but ignore the “maybe” in Vader being “maybe 20 percent less than” the Emperor.

Also, Lawrence Kasdan, who co-wrote The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi with Lucas, and therefore has intimate knowledge of Lucas’ vision from extensive story conferences, notes that the Emperor is “much more powerful than Vader” in a co-interview with Lucas. So, the same person developing and writing the scene of the Emperor’s death doesn’t think Vader’s display is indicative of him having powers comparable to the Emperor.

Vader’s own thoughts deteriorated as well. In Rise of Darth Vader, Vader believes he will one day rival the Emperor. However, Vader eventually accepts that ”he could not hope to defeat” and “had no reason to ever believe he could defeat” the Emperor. Had Vader been comparably powerful to the Emperor and grown lock-step with him, this sentiment makes little sense.

Even during Return of the Jedi, Vader thought of the Emperor as literally “omniscient” and “no longer dared to even entertain thoughts of rebellion” given how powerful the Emperor had become, indicating the gap between the Emperor and Vader was larger than ever before.

-- which doesn’t suggest anything about Vader’s power relative to the Emperor, considering Sheev was even “troubled by Asajj Ventress' growing prowess with the dark side of the Force.” He’s all about preserving his power and fearing betrayal, withholding knowledge from even the simpleton dark side adepts so that there is no conceivable way anyone could encroach him.

The Emperor’s optimism over Vader quickly dies off. The Emperor later writes that Vader could ”never” succeed him, that he “had wanted an apprentice, not wanted a walking wound,” and that he is looking through a lowly ”pool of minor wizards and political sycophants” for a replacement.

VI. RETURN OF THE LIGHTNING TANKING

A) WEAKENED

I’m amused you think Vader “focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act” across the span of “minutes” is not a big deal, yet believe Luke simply being passively amplified by dark emotions produces astronomic discrepancies in his power. Attacks unleashed in combat reflect the energies an individual can summon at a moment’s notice. Vader charging up his power hundreds of times longer than normal places him at an utterly unnatural level of power. Even if we assume Vader’s, in general, less powerful than normal, it still logically holds the power he wields after gathering and focusing his weakened strength for minutes far supersedes the power he could summon with his standard strength in a split second

George Lucas himself validates every argument I’ve made thus far. “Vader is not powerful enough to kill the Emperor,” but is able to “out of the super energy of wanting to protect his son.” So much for that idea Vader’s weakened when he’s described as having literal “super energy” relative to his normal sense. How does it feel to be wrong about literally everything you wrote?

You do realize Vader still has to live long enough to kill the Emperor? Resistance is inherently apart of the act. It’s utterly baseless to conclude he only used a passive Force barrier

B) DARTH VADER VS LUKE SKYWALKER

Quotes stating Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader are “equally strong in the Force” clearly establish a default position for the characters and aren't referring to any circumstantial amps.

Further, almost every source, including the script and Vader himself, identifies the reason of Luke’s newfound power against Vader as his personal growth between Bespin and Endor, not him unknowingly drawing on the dark side: “But the young Jedi has grown stronger in the interim,” “Luke had grown stronger since their last encounter,” “He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel,” “The young Jedi has grown in the interim,” etc. The revised Official Star Wars Fact File 5 (which was published before the Canon / Legends split, so it’s still apart of the Legends continuity) even states, “As father and son faced each other in a lightsaber duel, it was clear that the younger man had now developed powers that equaled his father’s,” outright confirming Luke “had developed” powers that equaled Vader’s, confirming they’re not a result of any amplifier but the product of his accelerated training. At best, Luke passively drawing on darker emotions contributed in the fight shifting from “a battle of equals” to Luke “gaining the advantage” and kicking Vader down the stairs. Fact remains, though, that Luke is at least equally strong as Vader in the Force, so my comparison holds.

C) THE EMPEROR’S FULL POWER

FINAL WORD

I. REVAN REBUTTALS

A. THE POWER OF ZIOST

Spoiler:

Since when has “largest” been synonymous with “most potent”?* The Old Republic Encyclopedia’s description of the ritual nexus only denotes its size, not its potency.

It’s amusing how #teamswtor still can’t get a grasp on such a simple concept as… words.

You’re baselessly assuming that Ziost is only “moderately” powerful when in reality its potency is undefined.* 

Now, to make my argument perfectly clear, I am not claiming Ziost necessarily is potent enough to elevate spirit Vitiate above his corporeal counterpart, so you cannot shift the burden of proof on me. I am merely pointing out the fact that because the nexus’ intensity is unquantifiable, your claim that Ziost is less potent than the Medriaas nexus the Shit Emperor assimilated into his being falls apart. Arguments without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, and yours has none.

B. REVAN’S WILLPOWER

Spoiler:

You argue that the energies Revan channeled would also be affected by the Yavin nexus, balancing out Revan being amped. But the blast had the intensity to ravage life in a one-kilometer-radius on Yavin IV, so if we remove the nexus, it would not have been nearly as potent. Thus, Revan tanking it would have, aside from being far less impressive, been indeterminate. And if we remove the nexus amp from Revan, then there’s no proof he could even have tanked it at all as he was pushed to the edge of his strength even when amped to high heavens.

Not to mention that the attack would only have been that potent “upon successful completion.” Since Revan’s channel was broken before that happened, the backlash wasn’t as intense, and the thus whole feat is entirely unquantifiable.

Addendum: You’ve fucked yourself in the ass by posting the scan about Revan’s machine core backlash, which stated that he was “Stunned and unable to act” after it blew in his face. If a blast only capable of dealing “massive damage to enemies within 1km” - and possibly much weaker than that, as I’ll soon explain - is enough to push a stupendously amped Revan to his limits, I wonder how unamped base Revan could ever be scaled anywhere near, much less above, this (link). 

C. REVAN VERSUS VITIATE

Spoiler:

I didn’t ignore anything. If Meetra is constantly “refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war,” and Revan had his powers constantly return to their natural state as you yourself state in your next paragraph, then at best it proves he can resist the Shit Emperor for an unspecified amount of time after which his mind is restored to his peak capacity by Meetra. You have absolutely no proof Revan could have endured for 300 years without having his mental powers continually renewed to their maximum.

The Exile repeatedly states that Revan’s “strength will fail,” which would not happen if he were growing more powerful continually (link).

His success, aside from having his psyche repeatedly revitalized as explained above, is simply explained by the Shit Emperor’s incompetence with telepathy similar to Corran Horn being unskilled in telekinesis.

In a normal confrontation, Failkorion utterly lays waste to the Outlander (links 1 and 2), yet admits to being incapable of mentally enslaving him (link). The Outlander resisted Failkorion, yet wasn’t anywhere close to being as powerful otherwise.

D. LORD VIVICAR SCALING

Spoiler:

You’ve proven that Morrhage created a link between himself and hundreds of Jedi, but you’re hastily jumping to an unvalidated conclusion by claiming that he actively dominated them all at once.* Yuon Par had noted some time before the Consular storyline began that she’d been ill, and after she finally succumbs to the sickness, Syo Bakarn notes that she is “resting comfortably” (link 1 and 2). Once the player arrives at the hospital, however, Yuon is seen rambling (link), but later on Attros Finn notes how there have been no more outbursts like that (link). When Yuon is being mind controlled and starts rambling again, Attros tells the player that she was placid beforehand, and that the outburst came all of a sudden without warning (link). The fact that there are periods of calmness proves Morrhage isn’t dominating the plague victims continuously. The best we’ve seen from him is controlling one individual at a time, and so that’s the most Revan scales above.

II. NEW VADER ARGUMENTS

A. THE FORCE UNLEASHED SCALING

1. RAHM KOTA SCALING

On Raxus Prime, the Apprentice encounters a massive ship that’s blocking his access to the junk Jedi Temple, and notes that he would take hours to run around it on foot (link) - consider how fast Force users can go when they augment their speed with the Force, and a picture of the ship’s size may begin to form in your head. To solve his conundrum, he instead supercharges the engines with lightning and moves the entire bulk of the ship out of the way (link). Essentially, the Apprentice’s lightning generated enough joules for the corvette to move the same distance in seconds/minutes that would’ve taken the Apprentice’s Force augmented speed hours, and had enough residual potency for the ship to have moved dozens of seconds even after that.

On Raxus Prime, the Apprentice confronts an army of droid golems which he forms a hurricane out of (link). Note that these are not your typical droids, but puppets animated by Kazdan Paratus’ Force abilities (link). Through Paratus, the droid golems were able to utilize telekinesis, Force shield and Force drain (link), making them basically identical to typical Force users. It would not be inaccurate to say that the Apprentice outright ragdolled a bonafide army of Force users numbering in the “thousands,” which were capable of holding off the forces of the Galactic Empire for years (link). After disposing of Paratus’ minions, the Apprentice comes face-to-face with the Jedi, and ragdolls him too (link).

Star Wars The Force Unleashed novelization wrote:Igniting his lightsaber, he slashed one of the reaching appendages clean off and batted another aside with a firm telekinetic punch. Recovering his balance, he sent a wave of lightning rippling across its corroded carapace, but that barely slowed it down . . .

Ducking under the swinging blades, he sent bolt after bolt of lightning into the massive wound he had made, while battering it with panels ripped from the walls and hurled with every iota of energy he could muster. Finally it weakened. Listing heavily on its left side and missing one of its axes, it staggered ponderously backward across the foyer.

After his fight with Kazdan Paratus, the Apprentice muses how he could level the Jedi’s junk Jedi Temple with a single Force push (link). The Temple was stated by Juno Eclipse to look exactly like the real one on Coruscant (link), which is one kilometer in height (link), and while they may not be completely identical, it is still obviously of similar proportions.

During the Apprentice’s fight with Shaak Ti, special note was given to the Jedi Master’s ability to telepathically dominate all life on Felucia, a planet completely overgrown with vegetation (link), the natives of which are all inherently Force sensitive (link) and spread across the entire planet (link), with the most powerful ones being “among the most talented natural Force-users in the galaxy” (link)

Shaak Ti databank, Star Wars The Force Unleashed video game wrote:When Shaak Ti discovered the Felucians, she began teaching them to use their connection to the Force for both attack and defense. She also encouraged them to resist the temptation of the dark side

The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide wrote:The Jedi Master struggled to survive in Felucia’s harsh environment and eventually made contact with the native population living amid the dense fungi jungles. She established a rapport with the Force-sensitive Felucians and began training their shamans in specific powers to help them oppose the Imperial troops and minions of Vader that are hunting down the Jedi and seeking to eradicate the native Force-users on the planet.

and she had even nerfed their connection to the Force (link).

The effect her death had on the planet is accounted in great detail, further demonstrating her influence over the entire biosphere (link).

Yet, the Apprentice overpowers her with a Force repulse, with the following comments emphasizing his superiority: “Shaak Ti’s command over Felucia was impressive. She communed with its native species, commanding its flora and fauna to attack. But even with an entire planet at her command, she could not hold Starkiller. No one could…” (link).

And given Shaak Ti had turned the planet into a light side nexus (link), the Apprentice, as a darksider, would have been hindered during the feat.

Marek’s fight with Shaak Ti takes place only weeks after his duel with Kota at best. It would be a huge stretch to argue any sort of large gap between Nar Shaddaa Marek and Felucia Marek when such has never been stated to exist. Marek is pretty much operating on the same power level against Ti that he did against Kota, yet the Jedi General is able to stalemate him in a Force battle. Kota should thus logically be able to duplicate all of the feats I listed for Marek.

Star Wars Insider #140 wrote:After an inconclusive victory against Rahm Kota, and a more final one against the mad Paratus, Starkiller takes on a far more formidable foe in this classic scene: Shaak Ti, one of the most powerful Jedi.

2. SHADOW GUARD SCALING

He was also stated to be far beyond the Emperor’s Shadow Guards, one of which was able to match Galen Marek in "a clash of sparks and lightning” and prove to be “tough work” until Marek cheap-shot him (link)

3. GALEN MAREK SCALING

Yes, equally. That’s what the text states. You’re right about Galen getting a second wind of sorts but leave out Vader’s mental state completely.* Marek successfully unbalanced Vader with taunts right before the tables began to turn (link). This would have undoubtedly factored negatively into his performance a great deal as HK-47 states (links 1 and 2).

Vader does legitimately scale to all that Marek has done with the Force up to that point, such as blowing up a lightsaber-resistant rancor (link), powering a cannon that puts a hole in an ISD and brings down a superstructure (link), and yanking down an ISD from the sky (links 1 and 2).

B. THE FORCE UNLEASHED II SCALING

1. GALEN MAREK CLONES SCALING

And Vader’s fought and beaten Galen’s clones too.

2. STARKILLER SCALING

The primary Starkiller clone - who is just as powerful as the original Marek (link) - he outright ragdolls (link).

Source: Star Wars The Force Unleashed 2 novelization wrote:The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

Juno lying limp in his arms.

The vision struck him as powerfully as a physical blow. When he tried to push it aside, it returned with even more power.

Juno-dead.

He reeled in shock. Was this what would happen if he killed Vader? He had no choice but to believe so. But if he didn't kill Vader, how would he ever get to her?

The Dark Lord took advantage of his momentary confusion. He delivered a telekinetic shove that threw Starkiller backward off the platform and down to the lower levels of the ruined cloning tower. The blow and the fall had the welcome effect of clearing his mind. He turned in midair and landed on his feet. An instant later he was leaping upward again, his face a mask of determination.

The all-too-common counter to this is that Starkiller was exhausted before he fought Vader.

The game has him screaming like a madman mere seconds before Vader Force grips him, and the novel notes how he was “howling with rage” which is echoed by the Prima Official Game Guide (link). Historically, Force rage has been enough to erase any and all feelings of enervation, such as in the cases of Dessel and Maul (link; it’s not a stretch to assume that Starkiller would be amped when losing Juno to Boba Fett sent him into a Force Rage earlier (link), and here has just witnessed - in his mind - her get killed by his most hated enemy), so Starkiller was at full power when Vader tossed him aside “like a ragdoll” (link). And to make this clear, Vader manhandled Starkiller because he was “too powerful,” not because Starkiller forgot to put his Force defences up or whatever.

Source: Star Wars: The Force Unleashed 2 novelization wrote:Instead of pursuing the attack, Starkiller went to go to Juno, but once again Darth Vader stood in his path.

"Get out of my way.”

"Your feelings for her are not real, " Vader said, nor moving.

"They are real to me. "

Starkiller attacked the Dark Lord again, but this time he was the one driven back.

With a sense of piercing despair, he saw exactly how the fight would go . . .

Sudden understanding burst in Starkiller's mind. This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair.

His superiority is also demonstrated when he tanks a rage-amped Starkiller’s lightning barrage for 30 seconds without sustaining any lethal injuries (link), which is consistent with the Prima Official Game Guide’s description of Vader rendering most of Starkiller’s Force attacks useless (link).

Far less powerful blasts have been able to penetrate Vader’s insulation (link), so going by your logic, Vader is actually holding his body together through sheer will, since apparently internal organs aren’t covered by a Force shield (link), which is news to me but I’m okay with it because it means Vader’s will exceeds Revan’s given Starkiller’s lightning is vastly more powerful than the backlash that incapacitated an amped Revan (link).

3. DARK APPRENTICE SCALING

Darth Vader has also beaten the Dark Apprentice (link, they both have their lightsabers drawn, the Dark Apprentice is humbled and kneeling before Vader, smoking and with cuts on his cheek and arm; anyone's who's taken classes in visual analysis should recognize this as the aftermath of a duel) - someone more powerful than the original Galen Marek “ever was” which would include Oneness.

III. OLD VADER ARGUMENTS

A. G-CANON STATEMENTS

There’s nothing grammatically inaccurate about interpreting Lucas’ statement as meaning Vader “is like Darth Maul or Count Dooku” in that he’s not “as strong as the Emperor” the same as them, rather than Vader “is like Darth Maul or Count Dooku” in that he’s exactly as strong as them. Lucas mentioning them as examples makes sense as they were both Darth Sidious’ apprentices who failed to live up to their potential - which is what the entire quote is about: people with the potential to eclipse the Emperor. There’s a thematic correspondence between them and Vader: “he is like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He’s not what he was supposed to become.”

Star Wars Revenge of the Sith Visual Dictionary wrote:Blinded by pride, Dooku has failed to grasp that, like Darth Maul before him, he is little more than a placeholder for the apprentice Sidious has sought from the beginning: Skywalker himself.

If this was coming from anyone else they might have a point. You though? baay shfat, all I’ve done here is adhere to the rules that we both - yes, that also means you - agreed on yet you chastise me to no end. But when you do the exact same thing you mock me for by attempting to delete seven quotes making suit Darth Vader more powerful than RotS Anakin Skywalker (link) by citing only a single Lucas quote, suddenly it is “the only realistic way to interpret it”?

Spoiler:

And even were Vader only on the level of Darth Maul, that would still leave him better off than Revan. Remember that little quote about Shadow Guards not being a threat to Vader I posted at the start? It also stated Shadow Guards are less powerful than Asajj Ventress (link). This extends the powerscale I created with Galen being at the bottom, equaled/surpassed by Ventress who got her ribs casually smashed by Obi-Wan Kenobi (link) who in turn got ragdolled by Darth Maul (link), someone whose level Vader is around according to yourself.

B. C-CANON STATEMENTS

And indeed, it’d make little sense for Ben to still be Vader’s superior by the time of The Empire Strikes Back when the Dark Lord is labelled “equally formidable” to the Emperor during the events of the movie.

All that denotes is that the gap isn’t miniscule but that’s it. It doesn’t establish Vader would get ragdolled, one-shot, or anything so what exactly are you trying to achieve here by citing it? It’s vague as hell.

If they’re both growing at roughly the same rate but Vader began less powerful than the Emperor, then of course he can’t catch up. Nothing here debunks the idea Vader grew in lockstep with the latter like you nonsensically conclude.*

Even if it were true, it once again wouldn’t debunk my argument since I’m not arguing Vader could have beaten the Emperor on his own. All I’m advocating for is that Vader wouldn’t get flicked to oblivion by a single attack; that he can stand his ground for maybe 20 or so seconds before going down considering how he fared without an active Force defence. Your statement doesn’t contradict that idea.

That statement is blatantly wrong as Vader plots to oust the Emperor in Return of the Jedi in the very room his Master is sitting in.

Vader’s case is about his current power which does indeed position him near the Emperor’s league.

The Emperor wanted someone more powerful than himself as an apprentice according to George Lucas. Being a disappointment in the Emperor’s eyes doesn’t demean Vader relative to Revan nor does it mean Vader isn’t comparably powerful to his Master like his statements and feats suggest.

C. DARTH VADER VERSUS THE EMPEROR

1. WEAKENED

According to your very own word, Darth Vader’s will doesn’t dictate reality (link). Therefore, him “focusing solely and sightlessly on his will” “to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor” doesn’t mean any reality-warping was done in the vein of Anakin Skywalker willing Count Dooku to lose as the Revenge of the Sith novelization described it. It was solely a physical feat, and thus all of Vader’s gathered Force energy would have gone into physical augmentation.

According to your very own word, Darth Vader’s will doesn’t dictate reality (link).

Therefore, him “focusing solely and sightlessly on his will” “to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor” doesn’t mean any reality-warping was done in the vein of Anakin Skywalker willing Count Dooku to lose as the Revenge of the Sith novelization described it.

It was solely a physical feat.

And thus all of Vader’s gathered Force energy would have gone into physical augmentation. And since his body was weakened and his physical strength wasn’t at its maximum, per once again yourself and other canonical sources (link), it would therefore mean he wasn’t able to channel enough Force power to augment his physicals to their usual level, meaning that Vader wasn’t operating on his standard level and was weakened when performing this feat.

How does it feel to know you’ve debunked your own arguments and validated mine?

My point was that because Vader was “weaker than he’d ever been” (link), you have absolutely no way to ascertain whether him accumulating his power would place him above his natural strength or not. And you still don’t, because you didn’t actually respond to my argument, just regurgitated the same baseless vomit from your last post.** Why should we conclude Vader, when he’s even weaker than when he was burning on Mustafar, gathering his energies for minutes makes him more powerful than full power RotJ Vader? You haven’t offered any sort of proof, just assertively acting like you saying so means it must be true. It doesn't.
That statement is in the context of the aftermath of Luke and Vader’s duel (link). Even after being empowered by “the super energy,” Vader is still weakened (“remaining strength”; “the Dark Lord’s weakened body”; “a crippled Vader”), which you’ve admitted yourself, so are you actually advocating for the idea that if a statement doesn’t mention the context of the scene it is referencing, that context should be ignored? That’s not how debating works.

If Darth Vader is focusing “solely and sightlessly on his will” “to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor,” he was, factually, not consciously focusing his will on anything else except the Emperor’s demise.Your rebuttal is nonsensical; yes, he has to live to accomplish his objective, but to conclude from that that he was actively focused on surviving is the fallacy of defective induction. Vader can still live and not be protecting himself - all it indicates is that he can withstand the Emperor’s power with his passive defences.

2. FULL POTENCY

Darth Vader endured the Emperor’s full potency.

This has two possible interpretations: full potency and full impact. The latter interpretation denotes that Vader merely tanked the amount/magnitude that was hitting Luke, which actively goes against the idea that Vader endured its full potency. However, if he had merely been struck by the full impact of the lightning torturing Luke, he wouldn’t have died. Luke was electrocuted for far longer than Vader yet survived; Vader was electrocuted for a far shorter period than Luke yet died - the full impact interpretation simply doesn’t add up and is contradicted by what actually occurred in the story.

D. DARTH VADER VERSUS LUKE SKYWALKER

Once again, you simply can’t ignore the context of the scene that the statements are referring to even if the quotes themselves omit it. Anakin Skywalker: The Story of Darth Vader specifies that even during the brief skirmish you cited from the film, Luke was still amped by his rage: “Again the young Jedi allowed his anger to bleed away,” which is stated right after Luke disengages and jumps to the catwalk (link); if Luke was able to let “his anger bleed away,” there must have been anger in the first place. Admittedly it is a little odd how Luke mere moments ago calmed himself (which the same source acknowledges), yet seconds later would be angry once more, but that is what the source states and so we must go with it. Thus, he was amped throughout the entire fight with Vader and all your quotes must be referring to Luke being Vader’s equal only when he’s enraged. Otherwise they’d be contradicted by their respective feats and thrown out the window.

Source: The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader wrote:With incredible speed, Luke reactivated his weapon to parry Vader's attack. Vader swung again and again, but Luke blocked each blow. Soon, Vader was breathing hard through his respirator. I can't let Luke defeat me, Vader thought. I won't let the Emperor have him!

Absolutely nothing there states Luke gained powers that equaled his father’s through personal growth. He may very well have “grown stronger in the interim” by drawing on dark emotions, “acquired” newfound strength via rage, “developed powers that equaled his father’s” via dark side anger etc. Nothing actually straight up says he got to that level via just training and experience.

Your double standards are once again on full display*: you argue that Galen Marek simply “understand[ing] a better way to kill” and proclaiming “I don’t need hate in order to beat you” made him powerful enough to telekinetically ragdoll the guy he was just seconds earlier even with, yet ridicule the notion that Luke drawing on his rage would grant him an epic boost even though the idea is the same.

IV. THE FULL POWER OF ZIOST

• The Emperor is "much more powerful" than Vader.
  
  
• The Emperor "would not feel threatened" if he fought Vader and Luke combined.
  
  
• Vader believes he "could not hope to defeat" and "had no reason to ever believe he could defeat" the Emperor.
  
  
• Vader believes the Emperor is "all-knowing" and "omniscient".
  
  
• Vader and a holding-back Luke are equally strong in the Force according to five to eight sources.
  
  
• Luke was "so overwhelmed" and "powerless" against a fraction of the Emperor's power.
  
  
• Vader, after charging his power for minutes, having "super energy", and a lightning-resistant suit, still died to an off-guard Emperor.
  
  
• Vader was ragdolled by Marek and twice defeated by an exhausted-beyond-belief Starkiller.
  
  
• Vader would be "easily overwhelmed" by the same group of Marek clones that Starkiller disintegrated.
  
  
• Vader has powers comparable to Maul and Dooku per George Lucas.
  

Spoiler:

I. DARTHANT66 VS DARTHANT66

It’s not some balancing effect. Yes, passive dark side energies of Yavin 4 flowed through Revan, amplifying him. Further, Revan concentrated the powers of the Machine Core into himself, meaning he had both the stream of power from the Yavin 4 nexusand the Machine Core. However, Revan lost control of these energies when attacked, and they “overloaded” within him. Thus, the passive dark side energies that were originally amplifying Revan were no longer at his disposal but actively included in the “backlash” of harmful energy against him. In other words, Revan can't use the same out-of-control energies literally ripping him apart to simultaneously prevent him from being ripping him apart - that doesn't make any sense.

While part of Vitiate’s power was focused on dominating Revan’s will, Revan likewise likely diverted a significant portion of his power to fend off Vitiate’s telepathic attack. Revan wouldn’t have left his mind simply unguarded - a mere brush of Vitiate’s mind collapsed Scourge to the floor - and, as established in the next section, Revan explicitly requires and expends Force power to resist Vitiate. Overall, a super-charged Vitiate’s telekinesis had little effect on Revan and was unable to maintain any form of control over Revan thereafter, whereas a burst of Revan’s strength literally rendered Vitiate temporarily completely limp. Had the physical distance between the two been closer, it’s highly possible Revan would have struck down Vitiate.

Only once Revan’s power finally wane at the end of the Cold War, three-hundred and seven years after the mental war began, does Meetra worry Vitiate will soon overwhelm him, stating, “The darkness will consume all it touches. Stars will burn black, ashes raining on lifeless worlds. Everything ends. The prisoner holds the darkness at bay, lost inside it for three-hundred years. His strength will fail, and he will become the darkness.”
Vitiate's inability to overpower Revan's defenses for three-hundred years indicates a direct correlation between mental fortitude and Force strength.
When Revan was close to or at full strength, Vitiate was unable to dominate him; He only begins to succeed as Revan's Force power begins to diminish.

According to Azronger’s own post, “It should be rather clear that willpower has a stark correlation with one’s ability to wield the Force.” Going off that idea, it’s nigh-impossible to not recognize Revan’s parity with Vitiate. In a direct contest of their wills across three centuries, Vitiate utterly failed to pry information from Revan’s mind or turn him into Darth Revan again - his two intended goals. To quote the disbelief of the protagonist, "The Emperor had three hundred years to break this man, and he never succumbed?" Eventually, Vitiate realized Revan was outright too strong to influence and, working simultaneously with the “incalculably powerful Dread Masters, attempted to capitalize on Revan’s past and split his consciousness in two: “That's why the Emperor tried so hard to split you up. Two pieces working separately aren't nearly as good as one whole, working together. / The Emperor split you apart, because you were strongest when you were together." However, even their combined might failed given the full split did not occur until the aftermath of the Foundry battle by Revan’s own prerogative. Sad!

MY POST ONE: I showed Revan and Vitiate actually fought as relative equals: Revan’s telekinesis rendered Vitiate temporarily completely limp, whereas Vitiate’s supercharged telekinesis had no physical impact on Revan and likely couldn’t had even moved him if it wasn’t supercharged. Also, I explained that Vitiate overwhelming Revan is not indicative of significant superiority given the context (click). Next, I argued Revan grew in lock-step with Vitiate across their mental war, as he too powerful to be influenced when he was at full Force strength, and only at the end when his powers subsided did Vitiate begin to succeed, showing a correlation between resistance and Force power. Azronger reinforced this by affirming, “Willpower has a stark correlation with one’s ability to wield the Force.” In simpler terms, Revan started comparably powerful to Vitiate, and his defense against Vitiate's telepathy remained consistently successful across three centuries despite Vitiate growing stronger, indicating Revan grew stronger as well. Thus, Revan was comparable to peak Vitiate as of The Old Republic and far more powerful than the weakened spirit Vitiate that consumed Ziost.

Sure, Revan was temporarily “stunned and unable to act” for three seconds after internally tanking kilometer-afflicting energies. While you clearly did not put a lot of thought into this argument, what exactly do you think happened while Revan was “stunned and unable to act”? That the coalition strike team sat back and drank juice boxes until Revan got back up? Revan would be immobile on the floor as dozens of enemies stab him with lightsabers and fire blasters and explosives (which is exactly what happens in-game). If Revan’s “unable to act,” then he’s incapable of actively using the Force, meaning he absorbed all the attacks through sheer force of will and still got back up and continued fighting. Note that Revan remained fully conscious during this time, even speaking, “No! I won’t be denied! I will never give in!”

Still, I’m glad you brought that up. In the past, I shied away from the “stunned and unable to act” segment because of its hilarious ramifications if taken seriously. However, if you're treating it as fair game, then so will I, and there's no going back now.

Edit: To slide in a clarification, I *don't know* if this feat shows power greater than the Dark Empire Palpatine's Force storms, hence why I emphasized that they're "arguably" greater "as far as I'm aware" on the extent of the Force storms. I removed that segment because I don't want that particular point to derail the thread, as I'm not all interested in debating, nor do I believe, that Revan is greater than Dark Empire Palpatine. Getting back on topic . . .

As for Revan and Vitiate, both paused and gathered their energies beforehand. Thus, the power difference was naturally exasperated, and the potency of Vitiate’s lightning became greatly amplified relatively. Vitiate also began charging his energies before Revan and was boosted by the dark side nexus of both Dromund Kaas and the Imperial Citadel.

Yes, passive dark side energies of Yavin 4 flowed through Revan, amplifying him.

This is consistent with how Revan is unfazed by a direct lightsaber strike from Satele Shan in the Shadow of Revan launch trailer [1], and further substantiation that Revan’s powered by his will.

However, Revan doesn’t “need” the Temple of Sacrifice. Even after losing the temple and all his followers, Revan was still confident in razing Yavin 4 - alone. As to how, Revan himself states, “If I have to snuff out every life on this world by hand to draw the Emperor out, then so be it!" Revan’s thwarted before we get to see what he means, but his statement suggests he plans to directly substitute himself for the Temple of Sacrifice and do everything the hard way: personally “snuffing out every life on this world by hand” and cooking up the necessary rituals to channel and conjure Vitiate’s physical form. After all, Revan plans to resurrect Vitiate on the Forgotten Terrace, where there’s no visible extraneous aid. The point, though, isn’t whether this quote alone suggests Revan’s of imaginable level of power - let the rest of my argument speak to that - just that Shadow of Revan doesn’t contradict the ideas already put forth - quite the contrary.

This is consistent with how Revan is unfazed by a direct lightsaber strike from Satele Shan in the Shadow of Revan launch trailer [1], and further substantiation that Revan’s powered by his will.

Starkiller was not “rage-amped” during the lightning barrage. The fact Starkiller screamed while blasting Vader does not mean he even tapped into the dark side, let alone fully immersed himself in it, as doing such is outright contradictory to the novel. Early into the duel, Starkiller gained a burst of clarity, realizing he must avoid the dark side and contain his anger and despair: “Sudden understanding burst in Starkiller's mind. This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair” (Source: Star Wars The Force Unleashed 2 novelization). Later, Starkiller even plead with Vader to join the Rebellion: "The Rebels want to destroy the Emperor. Why not work with them rather th-?" (Source: Star Wars The Force Unleashed 2 novelization).

Vitiate on Ziost has to not just make up the gap between his weakened spirit and standard spirit, but also his standard spirit and his physical body, both of which are nigh-insurmountable and neither of which are compensated by New Adasta. Thus, a physical Vitiate can easily replicate and far surpass the cataclysm of Ziost, since his powers are far beyond the New Adasta-exclusive powers of weakened spirit Vitiate when he unleashed the death wave. Only after weakened spirit Vitiate consumes Ziost are his powers comparable to his standard spirit (consider: post-Ziost spirit Vitiate is roughly the same as spirit Valkorion) and, upon retaking Valkorion’s host body, comparable to his former self.

(Reminder: Regardless if you consider Vitiate's possessing and feeding across New Adasta as a ritual, the point is that, even after said "ritual," he's still colossally weaker than normal. There's nothing stating nor implying the death wave itself was created by a ritual. In the past, some have pointed to similarities with the Ritual of Nathema but, as already stated, the Gravestone cleansed all life there.)

The Temple of Sacrifice was specifically designed to restore specific spirits to physical forms. In fact, Vitiate specifically safeguarded - and likely outright created - the temple as a final safety net if ever needed, hence why his sanctuary and slumbering spirit are directly next door. Such a resurrection procedure clearly necessitates more than obliterating worlds with raw power - ritual is required. Revan’s fiddling with linking incorporeal spirits, channeling specific planetary energies into host bodies, ensuring other local and hungry Sith spirits do not siphon the chaos, etc. Thus, Revan’s first going to try to use this all-in-one device before he gets his hands dirty.

However, Revan doesn’t “need” the Temple of Sacrifice. Even after losing the temple and all his followers, Revan was still confident in razing Yavin 4 - alone. As to how, Revan himself states, “If I have to snuff out every life on this world by hand to draw the Emperor out, then so be it!" Revan’s thwarted before we get to see what he means, but his statement suggests he plans to directly substitute himself for the Temple of Sacrifice and do everything the hard way: personally “snuffing out every life on this world by hand” and cooking up the necessary rituals to channel and conjure Vitiate’s physical form. After all, Revan plans to resurrect Vitiate on the Forgotten Terrace, where there’s no visible extraneous aid. The point, though, isn’t whether this quote alone suggests Revan’s of imaginable level of power - let the rest of my argument speak to that - just that Shadow of Revan doesn’t contradict the ideas already put forth - quite the contrary.

Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case will be made within the debate itself.

A New Hope: Yes, let’s use a quote from 1977 - before Anakin and Vader were even the same character - to argue Lucas believes Vader’s more powerful than Anakin! Moreover, Obi-Wan saying Vader’s powers “matured” doesn’t necessarily mean they increased, just that Vader has greater control than the emotionally unstable wreck that Obi-Wan faced on Mustafar.

The opinion of authors have no validity and cannot be used unless they are explicitly accepted into the continuity.

Also, you can’t attribute feats like these to Vader given Marek has “the potential to be the most powerful Force user ever” (Source: Star Wars Insider 100).

The lifting is not even indicative of superiority over the near-dead Starkiller either, given Vader still lost that fight anyway and would have also lost the fight directly beforehand if Starkiller had not suffered from a sudden vision the moment he went to strike Vader down:

The foremost demonstration of this is the Temple of Sacrifice fight. Revan attempted to channel the energies of The Machine to effectively destroy all enemies, including armies of coalition forces, within a one-kilometer radius. Revan lost control of the power when ambushed by the coalition strike team, and the planet-razing energies overloaded and backlashed inside of him. While Force barriers are obviously ineffective to an internal explosion, Revan willed his body to stay together as the energies visibly erupted out of him. Thus, he’s clearly well beyond the domain of physical pain or second-degree burns as suffered by Vitiate in Revan, and there’s no indication the dark side nexus would change the nature of the feat - it may even amplify the internal energies.

Anyway, Revan channels the energies of The Machine to devastate all life in a one-kilometer radius, with his pulsations of power during the channel already afflicting all in the radius. The strike team attacks Revan (link), making the energies “overload” or “backlash” inside of Revan. Any conventional Force user would die if a kilometer-spanning energies released within them; internal organs aren’t coated with a Force shield. Revan surviving suggests his body is tethered to his will, not biological function, substantiating spirit Revan’s statement that, “You’ve carried on, dragging the remains of a body that should have long since faded to dust”(link).

Or Vader’s using the Force to (unsuccessfully) defend against the Force attack, lmao.

No, my analysis factored that in. As I stated, during the ritual of Nathema, “Vitiate sucked dry the entirety of the planet’s cosmic Force - unnaturally amplified to ‘the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see’.” Thus, Vitiate’s standard spirit already possesses the totality of a dark side nexus explicitly far more potent than Ziost. Any boost weakened spirit Vitiate received from simply being in the presence of the Ziost dark side nexus doesn’t remotely compensate.

Foremost, Anakin Skywalker: The Story of Darth Vader appears to be an in-universe source. Sansweet prefaces the bibliography with, “Historians are just beginning to uncover details of Anakin’s early life, since numerous archives were destroyed during the Galactic Civil War. Furthermore, when Anakin assumed the mantle of Darth Vader he attempted to stamp out all vestiges of his former existence. One fact not in dispute is that young Anakin Skywalker was trained as a Jedi by Obi-Wan Kenobi.” The wording pinpoints this writing within the Star Wars universe, as “historians are just beginning to uncover details,” and it is obviously limited in knowledge and based on public consensus (e.g. “One fact not in dispute"). Thus, the contents within the book cannot be treated as canonical fact and are not necessarily reliable.

There is a popular misconception that Vader held back against Luke given, in the Courtship of the Princes Leia, Luke muses, “So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me,” after being internally telekinetically attacked by Gethzerion. However, refer to the Return of the Jedi adult novelization and the Return of the Jedi comic quotes. The Return of the Jedi adult novelization highlights Vader’s thoughts during the fight, and Vader himself is shocked by Luke’s strength, concedes Luke might defeat him, and even feels humiliated because of such, making it clear Vader couldn’t just beat Luke with the Force whenever he wished. Next, the Return of the Jedi comic explicitly states that Vader unleashed “his full strength and power” against Luke, so that’s that. Not only would Vader’s own thoughts and an out-of-universe, omniscient narrator take precedence over Luke’s baseless assumption and reveal he is in error, but Luke is likely referring to the Cloud City fight anyway. It makes sense Luke would reflect on a fight where many sources canonically state Vader held back his powers rather than one where overwhelming primary and secondary sources testify Vader give it his all.

You’re arguing a severely weakened and unarmed Vader can withstand the Emperor’s full potency for an extended period of time with just a passive Force shield. Given that premise, Vader definitely should think there’s even a slight chance at defeating the Emperor. That doesn’t mean Vader should think he could take a majority, just simply entertain the possibility of victory. However, the quotes in question state Vader “could not hope to defeat” and “had no reason to ever believe he could defeat the Emperor,” so much so Vader regards the Emperor as literally “omniscient” in three separate sources. Three! Vader wouldn’t consider someone comparably powerful to himself to be all-knowing. Your argument just isn’t reflected in the lore.

Also, in The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, Vader notes that the Emperor “would not feel threatened” even if him and Luke teamed up to destroy him because “the Emperor was simply too powerful”: “Vader grimaced. A year had passed since his last encounter with Luke Skywalker on Cloud City, where he had revealed his identity to Luke and told him it was his destiny to destroy the Emperor. Vader suspected that the Emperor knew of this treachery, for the Emperor knew everything eventually. But even if the Emperor were aware of all that had transpired, Vader was certain he would not feel threatened. The Emperor was simply too powerful.” In other words, Vader believes not only would the Emperor not be defeated by the combined power of Luke and him, but he wouldn’t even be phased by the prospect. (link)

The opinion of authors have no validity and cannot be used unless they are explicitly accepted into the continuity.

(I would be remiss if I didn’t make full use of my twenty dollar purchase of The Making of Return of the Jedi and note how amusing it is to see you argue against Vader and Luke sharing parity when Mark Hamill has even stated, “You should get the feeling that there’s no question anymore that I’m his equal or better as far as swordsman,” which the book upholds. You’ll notice a consistent trend throughout of you explicitly arguing the opposite of what the creators believe.)

II. DARTHANT66 VS MEN OF STRAW

Straw man. I never argued the backlash could have destroyed all life within a one-kilometer radius. However, as previously stated, “Revan channels the energies of The Machine to devastate all life in a one-kilometer radius, with his pulsations of power during the channel already afflicting all in the radius.” In other words, although the channel was incomplete, Revan still suffered a backlash from energies potent enough to radiate and increasingly damage all life in a one-kilometer radius and that approached the power to destroy everyone outright.

Since 1200 AD [1]. “Large” means “of more than average size, quantity, degree, etc.” (Source: Dictionary.com), “big in size or amount” (Source: Cambridge), “of considerable or relatively great size, extent, or capacity” (Source: Oxford), “having more than usual capacity or scope” or “exceeding most other things of like kind especially in quantity or size” (Source: Merriam-Webster), “of considerable or relatively great size, extent, or capacity” (Source: Google), etc.

There are many planetary-wide nexus’ in Star Wars - Korriban, Ziost, Malachor V, Dromund Kaas, Lehon, Zakuul, Odessan, Ambria, etc. Nathema being the “largest in size” dark side nexus would simply mean it’s an unnaturally large planet. Given the context of the quote speaks to the magnitude of the Nathema ritual, the size of the planet is utterly irrelevant information and clear indication that the usage of “largest” is instead in reference to quantity/amount/capacity, i.e. the nexus’ potency.

The potency of Ziost is defined - it’s less powerful than the “largest dark side nexus in history,” i.e. Nathema. As previously stated, any boost a weakened spirit Vitiate received by being in the presence of the Ziost dark side nexus does not compensate for his standard spirit possessing the Nathema dark side nexus. Add on Vitiate consuming millions of inhabitants, eight-thousand powerful Sith Lords, all the fauna and flora of the planet, and the discrepancy in power between a spirit and a physical body, and it’s impossible for the weakened spirit Vitiate residing on Ziost to be more powerful than his standard peak self.

Based on the underlined, it seems your entire rebuttal is contingent on your first-grade blunder of what the word “largest” means. Given I’ve brought you up to speed with second-grade developments, I hope we’re in agreement over Vitiate’s capabilities. Thus, to restate from post one: Physical Vitiate >>> Spirit Vitiate >>> Weakened spirit / Ziost Vitiate.

Beware of the Sith: To re-explain the whole Operation Knightfall > Mustafar argument:

Anakin’s ripe with fear and doubt. Per his Jedi teachings, he has to suppress these emotions when fighting, meaning he holds himself back and/or they weigh on his mind and distract him. However, when he forgoes his Jedi teachings and channels those feelings of insecurity into anger, he's able to clear his head and unleash his full power. That said, it's a two-way street. In emotionally charged situations, Anakin's anger can also feed into his fear and consume his mind: “On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter, but here now, within this ship, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.” These descriptions of Aargonar and Tatooine are what happened to Anakin on Mustafar: “The rage that boiled up in his brain threatened to block out his vision” (Source: Vader - The Ultimate Guide), "Yet it was as though when he had crushed the dragon under his boot, the dragon had sunk venomed fangs into his heel. Now its poison chilled him to the bone." (Source: Star Wars Revenge of the Sith adult novelization), etc. His emotions spiraled out of control, with his anger fueling his fear, his fear fueling his anger, and his anger fueling his fear again, weighing Anakin down with terror like he never before. Consequently, his powers weakened from being greater than the Emperor’s (i.e. “Palpatine elevated himself to the position of Emperor, and dispatched Vader as his ultimate enforcer. With his unparalleled Force abilities, Vader swept through the Jedi Temple.” (Source: Darth Vader databank, Star Wars official website)) to simply telekinetically stalemating Obi-Wan for a prolonged period of time.

A New Hope: Yes, let’s use a quote from 1977 - before Anakin and Vader were even the same character - to argue Lucas believes Vader’s more powerful than Anakin! Moreover, Obi-Wan saying Vader’s powers “matured” doesn’t necessarily mean they increased, just that Vader has greater control than the emotionally unstable wreck that Obi-Wan faced on Mustafar.

Further, when you look at the “seven quotes,” they’re all deeply flawed.

(Open spoiler tags to review specific rebuttals.)

The fact Starkiller “howls with rage” doesn’t mean he’s in a state of Force rage. “Rage” and “Force rage” are not synonymous. “Rage” is just an emotion that Sith, for instance, always use in battle. “Force rage,” however, is a specific Force application of totally surrendering oneself to their rage and dark side. The practitioner is consumed in a frenzy of dark side emotion (e.g. Darth Maul on Hypori, Jacen Solo on Coruscant, etc.), which grants "increased power for a short period of time" (Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia). Once the bloodlust subsides, the user is "drained of huge amounts of energy," and "has to recuperate for an extended period of time before being able to call upon the dark side again" (Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia). Based on this description, you have literally nothing suggesting Starkiller went into Force rage.

Further, aren’t you arguing Starkiller was Force enraged at the start of the duel? Which is it - the start or the end? Even your own argument isn’t consistent, nor does it explain how Starkiller already defeated Vader without Force rage in the cloning tower. Thus, without even the slightest substantiation to your Force rage argument, it’s clear Starkiller’s lightning barrage was in a state of near-death exhaustion, which explains the screaming. Remember, Starkiller “never felt so exhausted” directly before the fight in the cloning tower (since he just unleashed the totality of his Force power twice-over in the span of an hour), then had two prolonged fights with Vader that would further deplete the fraction of power he had left. The fact Vader was overwhelmed by such a weakened Starkiller is proof that a rejuvenated Starkiller would utterly crush Vader. (link)

There’s a difference between Marek actively embracing the light side in a moment of explicit clairvoyance and Luke passively drawing on negative dark side emotions (Luke holding back and/or not even using the dark side for a portion of the fight aside). Further, given Marek gained such an increase in power from this (per your admission, “it made him powerful enough to telekinetically ragdoll the guy he was just seconds earlier even with”), Luke’s “I’m a Jedi” moment may have likewise rewarded him an increase in power. Multiple sources even emphasize Luke's "strength" in that moment [1] , even within the context of Luke being "stronger than the Emperor realized," indicating Force strength. Of course, Luke was still “so overwhelmed” and “powerless” against a fraction of the Emperor’s might, substantiating Vader’s belief that even him and Luke combined would not threaten the Emperor.

refers to “of discouraging or awesome strength, size, difficulty, etc” rather than “causing fear, apprehension, or dread” given both are the living embodiments of fear throughout the Empire, and The Anointed Screenplay states, “My sense of the relationship is that the Emperor is much more powerful than Vader and that Vader is very much intimidated by him,” based on the events of The Empire Strikes Back, and Vader believes ”he could not hope to defeat” (Source: Vader The Ultimate Guide) and “had no reason to ever believe he could defeat” (Source: The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader) the Emperor, so it’s clear they’re not equally powerful.

- which you have completely failed to prove in the slightest. You have somehow tried to establish a connection between Vader not being a reality-warper and Vader not using a Force barrier against the Emperor, despite failing to articulate how they interrelate whatsoever.

Oh! The irony! You have desperately tried to dismiss Ziost because it’s “unknown how much the nexus aided the feat” (even though that’s untrue). Here, you’ve openly admitted there’s “no way to ascertain” how powerful Vader was, yet you’re still trying to use the “feat.”

This was already explained in Star Wars Insider: Vader died because the lightning critically injured his life support system, not because the lightning was far more potent than that which the Emperor used against Luke’s.

III. DARTHANT66 VS AZRONGER

Unsurprisingly, you have the timeline mixed up. Vivicar started by plaguing those that joined him on the Malachor 3 expedition: Yuon Par, Duras Fain, Sidonie Garen, Eriz Vossan, and Cin Tykan. Vivicar grew exponentially more powerful because of this: “My power is already beyond your comprehension. and every moment makes me stronger" [1]. And, yes, Vivicar was not dominating them continuously. However, by the time the Barsen’thor finally confronted him, Vivicar was so powerful that he revealed, “My plague has spread farther than you can imagine. Jedi Masters across the galaxy are succumbing to it as I speak.” The amount is identified as “hundreds” by both Vivicar (i.e. “The plague binds these Masters to me. Hundreds of them - the heart and soul of your order.”) and Syo Bakarn (i.e. "We have reports from across the galaxy. Dozens of Masters have died from the plague, maybe hundreds.”). Thus, exactly as I claimed, Vivicar successfully subjugated "hundreds" of "Jedi Masters” simultaneously (i.e. “succumbing to it as I speak”), and this was accomplished via telepathic domination (as you seem to agree given you called it “mind control”). If not, refer to my second post articulating why it's telepathy (click).

I already incorporated the Exile’s statements that Revan’s “strength will fail” into my first post (click). You are just reusing the quotes I already cited and concluding the opposite without addressing my original argument or providing new analysis. The fact Revan’s power began to and/or would fail toward the end Cold War is not mutually exclusive with the idea Revan’s powers grew across the three centuries prior. Both conditions can easily be true, as I've even already said, so that’s not a rebuttal.

Valkorion admitted to being incapable of easily *essence transfering into the Outlander, i.e. “My spirit invaded your mind in a search for a new host. You resisted.” However, the difficulty of essence transfer is utterly disproportionate to conventional abilities. It’s “nearly impossible” “to overcome a spirit already residing in a body” per the Dark Empire Sourcebook. As to why, the Dark Side Sourcebook explains, “If you transfer your essence to another body, and the original consciousness asserts control, you are simply forced out, and the original body survives,” seemingly regardless of context, meaning the original consciousness has a nigh-insurmountable advantage over the contending consciousness. Thus, Valkorion required significant time to secretly and slowly hollow out the Outlander’s consciousness.

In contrast, Vitiate’s telepathic ability is consistently touted by sources utterly disproportionate to any other power he possesses.

Vitiate even consciously chooses to use telepathy in battle, which defies all sensibility if his other abilities, like telekinesis, are distinctly more potent, which establishes a clear distinction between him and Horn (who biologically cannot use telekinesis).

Vitiate’s rebirths are admittedly too ambiguous to draw conclusions from for a formal debate

Also, no, since The Clone Wars Episode Guide is recounting the events seen in Revenge, it’s clearly referring to Dooku and Anakin Skywalker sensing Savage Opress’ presence. Dooku explicitly makes note this is power related, “I can sense him, Grievous. That creature, Savage Opress, is growing stronger and stronger as each day passes”(link). Likewise, “Anakin senses a disturbance in the Force - the return of something sinister”(link), meaning he likewise senses Savage, which makes sense given he’s at the same diner Savage was just at.

As to what distinguishes Revan’s feat from Savage’s, Savage’s ripples appear to only be felt by those with past connections to him (i.e. Dooku, Anakin, and Asajj Ventress), whereas Revan’s is obviously of far greater scale and impact (e.g. “The Force roils and convulses like never before,” “It exists nowhere and everywhere at once,” “That tapestry has become flawed,” etc.).

Straw man. I never argued the backlash could have destroyed all life within a one-kilometer radius. However, as previously stated, “Revan channels the energies of The Machine to devastate all life in a one-kilometer radius, with his pulsations of power during the channel already afflicting all in the radius.” In other words, although the channel was incomplete, Revan still suffered a backlash from energies potent enough to radiate and increasingly damage all life in a one-kilometer radius and that approached the power to destroy everyone outright.

Except Palpatine never planned for Dooku to surpass him, not to mention Dooku likely couldn’t if he tried. From the start, Palpatine planned to replace Dooku with Anakin. Dooku was just a temporary placeholder and fully lived up to Palpatine’s expectations as that role (e.g. to be the public face of the Sith, to lead the Separatists, etc.). Your "interpretation" truly makes no sense.

Why would a few obscure C-Canon sources inform the content of Lucas’ statement? There’s no reason to assume consistency between Lucas and the writers of the Expanded Universe. Lucas is fully independent from them, explicitly does not read a vast majority of the Expanded Universe, and has repeatedly stated that he is not constrained whatsoever by what they have established. Further, when you look at the “seven quotes,” they’re all deeply flawed.

Beware of the Sith: To re-explain the whole Operation Knightfall > Mustafar argument:

Anakin’s ripe with fear and doubt. Per his Jedi teachings, he has to suppress these emotions when fighting, meaning he holds himself back and/or they weigh on his mind and distract him. However, when he forgoes his Jedi teachings and channels those feelings of insecurity into anger, he's able to clear his head and unleash his full power. That said, it's a two-way street. In emotionally charged situations, Anakin's anger can also feed into his fear and consume his mind: “On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter, but here now, within this ship, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.” These descriptions of Aargonar and Tatooine are what happened to Anakin on Mustafar: “The rage that boiled up in his brain threatened to block out his vision” (Source: Vader - The Ultimate Guide), "Yet it was as though when he had crushed the dragon under his boot, the dragon had sunk venomed fangs into his heel. Now its poison chilled him to the bone." (Source: Star Wars Revenge of the Sith adult novelization), etc. His emotions spiraled out of control, with his anger fueling his fear, his fear fueling his anger, and his anger fueling his fear again, weighing Anakin down with terror like he never before. Consequently, his powers weakened from being greater than the Emperor’s (i.e. “Palpatine elevated himself to the position of Emperor, and dispatched Vader as his ultimate enforcer. With his unparalleled Force abilities, Vader swept through the Jedi Temple.” (Source: Darth Vader databank, Star Wars official website)) to simply telekinetically stalemating Obi-Wan for a prolonged period of time.

Beware of the Sith recognizes all of this: “Vader calls on the dark side to harness more power, but he is overwhelmed by rage. Obi-Wan takes advantage of Darth Vader’s weaknesses and defeats him.” In other words, Vader calling on his anger (i.e. “the dark side”) backfires (i.e. “but”), resulting in him being consumed by his emotions (i.e. “overwhelmed with rage”). So, the fact the source highlights Vader “is more experienced and powerful” than Anakin in a supremely weakened state merely scales Vader above the power-fluctuating, emotionally-conflicted Anakin that Obi-Wan stalemated in Force strength, not the Anakin that scales beyond Dooku, Yoda, etc.

Jedi Battles: Similar idea. This source writes how Anakin and Obi-Wan were equally powerful on Mustafar: “Obi-Wan had taught Anakin well an both fighters were now evenly matched in strength and skill.” Thus, the “Vader was even stronger” quote is predicated on this idea and does not comment on Vader’s relation to Anakin as of Operation Knightfall.

and the quote is clearly outdated anyway. Vader absolutely did not “thrive” in his suit, nor was the iconic design his own idea. These statements were written back in 1988 and don’t reflect current continuity. For a more modern take: “Far from gaining infinite power, he now lived his life in constant pain, never again to touch the skin of another. Only by sealing himself in a hyperbaric medical chamber could Vader peel away his body plating, and his efforts to heal his shattered body through the Force were humiliating failures. He had joined Palpatine in the hopes of overcoming death; instead he had killed his wife and wiped out his surrogate family, the Jedi” (Source: Vader - The Ultimate Guide). Regardless, an outdated and obscure RPG source from the 1980s has no bearing on whether or not Lucas thinks Vader’s comparable to Maul in 2005.

Lightsaber Dueling Pack: The paragraph focuses on how “in spite of his handicaps, Vader thrived” and that “he even found a way to turn the suit to his advantage by becoming a figure out of nightmares,” concluding that “from the ashes of death, Vader emerged even stronger.” Without a single mention of the Force, but rather emphasis on how Vader’s injuries worked out for the best, it’s baseless to conclude the quote is explicitly referring to Force power,

The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi: This source doesn’t even say Vader’s stronger than Anakin, just that they share the same Force signature (spoiler: they’re the same person). It makes no sense that Obi-Wan could identify Vader via power unless the power Vader held on the Death Star was exactly the as what Vader held on Mustafar, which hurts your case.

A New Hope: Yes, let’s use a quote from 1977 - before Anakin and Vader were even the same character - to argue Lucas believes Vader’s more powerful than Anakin! Moreover, Obi-Wan saying Vader’s powers “matured” doesn’t necessarily mean they increased, just that Vader has greater control than the emotionally unstable wreck that Obi-Wan faced on Mustafar.

Fightsaber: It’s not clear if the “at the height of his powers” quote is also encompassing pre-suited Vader, as the quote seems to specifically be in reference to the advancements Vader made between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back, and it’s unlikely a 2002 source would make sweeping declarations about the strength of an unknown character (i.e. pre-suit Vader).

Even if not, like with Lightsaber Dueling Pack, by no means does Lucas’ quote have to be consistent with Fightsaber, so it’s plausible it’s simply a direct retcon (which isn't a first for Fightsaber).

Note, though, that the same line as “at the height of his powers” also states “Skywalker is able to hold up against Vader.” Thus, per Fightsaber, Luke’s at least comparable to Vader as of The Empire Strikes Back, so a far more powerful Luke should definitely be in Vader’s league by Return of the Jedi. This goes back to my central point of this entire debate: Vader cannot be comparably powerful to the Emperor when he’s already on par with the far-less-powerful Luke.

Except Marek’s “taunts” only further empowered Vader: “The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled” (Source: Star Wars The Force Unleashed novelization). “Redoubled” means “to make twice as great in size or amount” (Source: Merriam-Webster), “to make something much stronger” (Source: Cambridge), “make or become much greater, more intense, or more numerous” (Source: Google), etc, which makes sense because Sith draw on anger for power and Marek’s taunts utterly enraged Vader. HK-47’s statements pertain to Jedi, who generally suffer the reverse effect. So, an amped-up Vader was brutally humiliated by Marek, who in turn was weaker than the Emperor.

For instance, in 21 BBY, Anakin held back a theta storm despite Obi-Wan noting even Yoda likely couldn’t do that [1]. Of course, that doesn’t mean sub-Dooku Anakin’s somehow more applicably powerful than Yoda in the Force. Rather, in feats that require continuous Force exertion, Anakin (and Marek) can immerse themselves into their unprecedented Force reserves to outlast and outperform almost anyone. Even if Vader’s applicably comparably powerful to the Marek that nudged a Star Destroyer, that doesn’t mean he can maintain such a level of power for the required duration to pull off the feat. Vader’s smaller Force reserves, reflected in his weaker potential, will clock him out far quicker.

No, the scene is a mirror reflection of Marek’s initiation at the start of The Force Unleashed (i.e. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJsE3q0E2yw&t=9m49s), hence why Vader has his lightsaber out. As for the Dark Apprentice’s injuries, it’s far more plausible that he just fought other clones given, as you said, his robes are smoking (which would be from Force lightning, which Vader doesn’t have). Further, Vader’s question - “Are you freed of his memories?” - makes more sense to ask after Starkiller destroys other versions of Marek than simply after a practice duel between the two. How would the Dark Apprentice been defeated if he's still armed with both his lightsabers anyway? I didn't know Sith do tap-outs.

Based on what? The Force Unleashed 2 novelization states, “Together they could easily have turned on their creator and overpowered him. Instead they were driven to destroy their own,” indicating that the past clones were biologically disposed to not attack Vader, so Vader likely executed them without any conflict. However, I’m not even convinced Vader even killed any failed clones given Starkiller fought an army of them - it seems Vader kept them in storage. Regardless, even if Vader fought and killed past clones, they would have been highly unstable and likely not even armed, similar to the dozens Starkiller cut down with ease.

It's also noteworthy that Starkiller believed that the clones en masse could “easily have turned on their creator and overpowered him,” as just quoted, whereas Starkiller pulverized them all simultaneously.

The behavior Starkiller demonstrates is even contradictory to what would be expected from the blind fury of Force rage anyway. Immediately after “howling with rage,” Starkiller breaks off and goes to Juno Eclipse. Vader blocks him, but Starkiller literally just asks to get out of his way rather than continually attack Vader in a frenzied state. When Vader refuses, Starkiller attacks with less strength than before, indicating either the effects of Force rage are already ebbing - meaning Starkiller is in an even weaker state for the rest of the fight due to the Force deprivation that follows Force rage - or he was never in a frenzy in the first place.

Starkiller was not “rage-amped” during the lightning barrage. The fact Starkiller screamed while blasting Vader does not mean he even tapped into the dark side, let alone fully immersed himself in it, as doing such is outright contradictory to the novel. Early into the duel, Starkiller gained a burst of clarity, realizing he must avoid the dark side and contain his anger and despair: “Sudden understanding burst in Starkiller's mind. This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair” (Source: Star Wars The Force Unleashed 2 novelization). Later, Starkiller even plead with Vader to join the Rebellion: "The Rebels want to destroy the Emperor. Why not work with them rather th-?" (Source: Star Wars The Force Unleashed 2 novelization).

Further, aren’t you arguing Starkiller was Force enraged at the start of the duel? Which is it - the start or the end? Even your own argument isn’t consistent, nor does it explain how Starkiller already defeated Vader without Force rage in the cloning tower. Thus, without even the slightest substantiation to your Force rage argument, it’s clear Starkiller’s lightning barrage was in a state of near-death exhaustion, which explains the screaming. Remember, Starkiller “never felt so exhausted” directly before the fight in the cloning tower (since he just unleashed the totality of his Force power twice-over in the span of an hour), then had two prolonged fights with Vader that would further deplete the fraction of power he had left. The fact Vader was overwhelmed by such a weakened Starkiller is proof that a rejuvenated Starkiller would utterly crush Vader.

The lifting is not even indicative of superiority over the near-dead Starkiller either, given Vader still lost that fight anyway and would have also lost the fight directly beforehand if Starkiller had not suffered from a sudden vision the moment he went to strike Vader down:

Furthermore, it’s insulting to accuse me of “ignoring the context of the scene” by citing one never-before-scene source. Regardless of Sansweet’s claim that Luke felt anger, Luke “was not battling to the fullest” in that particular exchange: “His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest.” After all, Luke feeling anger and giving into such anger for power are not mutually exclusive, as both can be true and even hinder Luke’s performance. Thus, a Luke “not battling to the fullest” is canonically “equally skilled and powerful” with Vader, as substantiated by Vader’s point-of-view while battling this holding-back Luke:

Stop posturing. These sources wouldn’t emphasize Luke’s growth between the Bespin and Endor fights then actually be secretly alluding to a power boost he received seconds earlier. Regardless, Fightsaber makes clear that Luke’s “a match for Vader” because of his accelerated training: “By the time of the Battle of Endor, Luke Skywalker has studied some lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan’s journal and greatly advanced his abilities. Without a Master, such advancement would be nearly impossible for most, but Skywalker’s unparalleled aptitude makes him a match for Darth Vader in their fateful duel onboard the second Death Star.”

There’s a difference between Marek actively embracing the light side in a moment of explicit clairvoyance and Luke passively drawing on negative dark side emotions (Luke holding back and/or not even using the dark side for a portion of the fight aside). Further, given Marek gained such an increase in power from this (per your admission, “it made him powerful enough to telekinetically ragdoll the guy he was just seconds earlier even with”), Luke’s “I’m a Jedi” moment may have likewise rewarded him an increase in power. Multiple sources even emphasize Luke's "strength" in that moment [1] , even within the context of Luke being "stronger than the Emperor realized," indicating Force strength. Of course, Luke was still “so overwhelmed” and “powerless” against a fraction of the Emperor’s might, substantiating Vader’s belief that even him and Luke combined would not threaten the Emperor.

Oh please. How is it vague? Your entire argument is that “Vader would be relativistic to the Emperor.” However, this establishes that the Emperor isn’t just more powerful than Vader - he’s “much more powerful than Vader” - by definition meaning they're not "relativistic."

There's no contradiction. Vader: The Ultimate Guide writes about how Vader "had his own designs on Luke," but his meeting with Palpatine on the Death Star "changed the rules of engagement" as Palpatine seemed "omniscient" and "more powerful than ever." However, after Vader met Luke in person, and especially after he realized Luke might even defeat him, it's reasonable that Vader's views shifted again. Luke's already Vader's level with almost no training, and after months of years of dark side tutelage under the Emperor he'll definitely become a threat to him.

Vader’s a threat to him in that he's inclined to rebel and strike at his master when he's vulnerable, which is what he did in practice. The fact remains Vader notes in Return of the Jedi that the Emperor wouldn’t even bat an eyelash over the prospect of fighting him.

That’s not what the quotes state. “The Emperor had wanted an apprentice, not wanted a walking wound” has nothing to do with the Emperor wishing Vader was more powerful than him. It means that the Emperor hardly even considered Vader an “apprentice” at all (in contrast to Maul and Dooku), as he wanted one but got something else. The same applies for the Emperor looking through a lowly “pool of minor wizards and political sycophants” for a replacement. The Emperor clearly doesn’t expect to find someone with more potential power than himself in explicitly “minor” wizards and literal politicians. He just wants someone to replace Vader, indicating he regards Vader as relatively weak during at least the early years of the Empire. Of course, this doesn’t mean the Emperor retained such extreme views about Vader, but I’m specifically responding to your claims that the Emperor regarded Vader optimistically in The Rise of Darth Vader. The Emperor did, but as demonstrated with these quotes, such was short lived.

That’s a jump. Why was it “solely a physical feat?” The entire focus of this discussion is whether Vader actively used the Force to defend himself against the Emperor’s lightning. You contended he did not based on some odd interpretation of a single line, despite the obvious logical benefits in Vader doing so. Now, you’re just fully adopting that stance without any further substantiation and without addressing my previous rebuttals.

Vader’s survival is tantamount to the Emperor’s destruction. If Vader did not require an active defense to reach the reactor shaft (e.g. if he was The Son), then he may not have put one up. If Vader did require an active defense to reach the reactor shaft or else he would die and fail to destroy the Emperor, then he would have put one up. It’s impossible to know either way, so your argument that Vader defended himself with only a passive Force barrier is baseless.

The ideas that Vader’s body was physically weakened and that Vader was overall empowered by “focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act” across the span of “minutes” are not mutually exclusive. Moreover, combined with Vader’s hyper-concentrated energies is the “super energy” (i.e. Vader gained a “super,” or “exceeding the norm,” amount of available energy) he received “out of wanting to protect his son, out of compassion.” So, Vader both charged up his power like never before and got a super power boost on top of that. Now, consider The Wrath of Darth Maul. Maul went from being on the brink-of-death after suffering near-mortal wounds (e.g. “His wound became worse. The pain was beyond excruciating. He had no doubt that death would come soon. He thought he was hallucinating when he saw a cloaked figure appear at the mount of the cave.”) to feeling more powerful than ever before (e.g. “Maul felt his rage flowing through his veins, pumping energy into every muscle. He felt so powerful that he believed he could accomplish anything.”) after immersing himself in the Force. Likewise, if Kit Fisto was tortured for three years, had his tentacles ripped off him, and his legs snapped, then was empowered with the energies of The Father, Fisto would still become infinitely more powerful than before. The fact Vader’s physically injured is ultimately irrelevant to the fact he’s imbued with an unbelievable amp,

not to mention his armor is specifically modified to maximize defense against Force lightning via insulation and systems that mitigate and release extreme heat. Even then, Vader still died! Why you have made this feat your central argument is beyond me.

Quantify for me the percentage of the lightning resisted by his “concentrated” amp, the percentage of the lightning resisted by his “super energy” amp, the percentage of the lightning resisted by his armor, and the percentage of the lightning not even resisted (since Vader died), and we can subtract the subtotals and discern how much of Vader’s regular power resisted the Emperor. From that point, we can discuss if the number puts Vader above a planet-cleanser. Otherwise, you have an utterly unquantifiable showing that increasingly looks worse for Vader.

IV. THE NOT-SO-PRODIGAL KNIGHT

A) SCALING

B) DURABILITY AND ENERGY ATTACK

1. Amplify himself with the dark side nexus of Yavin IV.
   
2. Draw on the Force resonance of the Machine Core to amplify himself even further.
   
3. Charge the attack for 125 seconds before it was potent enough to ravage life in a 1 km radius (link).
   

C) WILLPOWER

D) PERFORMANCE AGAINST AN EMPEROR

E) TELEKINESIS

V. THE CHOSEN ONE

A) SCALING

B) DURABILITY AND ENERGY ATTACK

C) WILLPOWER

D) PERFORMANCE AGAINST AN EMPEROR

E) TELEKINESIS

THE END

Spoiler:

The Exile refreshed Revan every time his power faltered: once the gap was wide enough, it’s possible the Shit Emperor could have been powerful enough to break Revan virtually effortlessly but, in video game terms, could never get him fully down to zero health because he was getting restored to 100% every time he hit 1% (link).

And no matter how strong, even the Shit Emperor can’t keep up his attempts forever, so eventually he would tire out, be forced to give up and try again later.

It doesn’t have to be a rebuttal if you don’t even make an argument: “Only once Revan’s power finally waned at the end of the Cold War, three-hundred and seven years after the mental war began, does Meetra worry Vitiate will soon overwhelm him [...] Vitiate's inability to overpower Revan's defenses for three-hundred years indicates a direct correlation between mental fortitude and Force strength. When Revan was close to or at full strength, Vitiate was unable to dominate him; He only begins to succeed as Revan's Force power begins to diminish.” How does that explain how the two notions aren’t mutually exclusive?

Even though Revan started out as a peer of the Shit Emperor in The Old Republic: Revan the latter’s power growth as a result of draining Revan for three centuries left an extremely wide chasm between the two.

Revan mentally resisting the Shit Emperor for that time doesn’t translate to parity because of the latter’s ineptitude with telepathy

Thanks for conceding Failkorion required time to hollow the Outlander out.* Hollowing a psyche out and using essence transfer are entirely separate powers and feats, with the former being an entirely telepathic process. Failkorion failing at it for five years straight against a Force user he could otherwise one-shot is indicative of his lack of ability for telepathy.

And in Revan’s own words, the key to perseverance lies in a special technique that allows even beings of exorbitantly lesser strength and will to resist the Shit Emperor’s telepathy (link).

When Maul was revived, he was merely “restored to his former power” and “only had his former strength by Revenge”* despite making “him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.” With counterexamples nullifying all the arguments for Revan’s strength increasing after the novel, it’s clear he was not more powerful in Shadow of Revan.

Revan in Shadow of Revan isn’t more powerful than his reborn self at all. Spirit Revan states “You think you’re stronger this way, but you’re not,” clearly referring to his Force power, not wisdom or self-control.

And regarding the Ziost feat itself, you yourself put forth the idea that the Shit Emperor assimilated the Nathema nexus into his being permanently, and based on the fact that the nexus only returned after his final death (link), Vitiate retained the nexus within him during the entire Ziost incident, so the Ziost amp would be stacked on top of the Nathema nexus, destroying your whole argument.

Medriaas being “the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see” is not even a fact according to your own stance on in-universe sources, and the historians wouldn’t even have a way to ascertain how strong the nexus was before its consumption, so it is more likely that “large” in this instance refers to the geographical size of the nexus since the historians believe it devoured the biosphere of an entire planet (which in itself is an erroneous claim, since we know it was Zildrog who ate Medriaas, not the dark side nexus (link)), necessitating it being quite sizeable. All in all, you have zero proof that physical Vitiate would be more powerful than a nexus-amped spirit Vitiate.

Vitiate travels to Ziost and grows “more powerful by the hour,” “every death seemingly extending his dark power” once he starts feeding there, widening the gap between him and Revan even further. Yet the Hero of Tython defeats him in one-on-one combat (link). Note how Vitiate had “limited his involvement to the area around New Adasta” and his puppets had been all knocked out by Theron’s scheme, stopping his possession (link). Thus, Vitiate wasn’t multitasking and was channelling his full might against the Hero - and lost. This is further corroborated by the website which states the only Hero has “the strength to stand against” Vitiate (link).

The Outlander has also been labelled Failkorion’s “most powerful opponent” as early as Chapter 1 of Knights of the Fallen Empire (link).

Lord Scourge’s vision also showed the Hero holding the Shit Emperor’s power in his hands, which clearly cannot refer to Knights of the Eternal Throne as Scourge has no idea who Failkorion is and he vehemently believes the Shit Emperor is dead after Act III (link), so it’s likely the Hero of Tython as of Act III is as powerful as the Shit Emperor in the vanilla game.

It’s likely the Hero of Tython as of Act III is as powerful as the Shit Emperor in the vanilla game, which puts him exorbitantly beyond Revan as established in the previous section. The only reason Revan was able to contend in Shadow of Revan was because he was amplified - and the Hero weakened - by an obscenely strong dark side nexus.

Darth Bane - Rule of Two wrote:It had been many years since Farfalla had fought while empowered by Worror's battle meditation. He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel. The Force flowed through him with greater power, filling him with its might. 

Fueled by Worror's battle meditation, she switched styles seamlessly, and her arms and blades became a blur as they carved figure eights in the air to catch and absorb the bolts of dark side energy.

Johun felt his strength and energy plummet, A wave of exhaustion and fatigue overwhelmed him, the beneficial effects of the battle meditation vanishing as Worror's concentration was broken.

Let’s now take a look at what it actually took to revive Vitiate’s spirit. On Yavin IV “he did gain power” by feeding on “the scores of dead,” merely on the scale of “thousands,” which “nourished” him without any rituals (link). On Ziost he “merely siphoned death from a single city,” with “every death seemingly extending his dark power,” “his power growing with every death,” growing “more powerful by the hour” (link). The fact that Revan believed reawakening Vitiate required a ritual indicates he doesn’t even think draining thousands in a city-wide area is possible; he’s in arrant disbelief when he returns without one (link).

And all this hocus-pocus of “fiddling with linking incorporeal spirits” and whatnot is completely baseless.* The Temple of Sacrifice is “attuned directly to” Vitiate’s will and isn’t “designed to restore specific spirits to their physical forms” but “designed to eradicate all living things on the moon” and “feed power to the Sith Emperor through offerings of the living” (link); any deaths caused by the Temple would automatically fuel Vitiate without any additional “fiddling with linking incorporeal spirits” or whatever. If Revan could simply have killed the entire world by clapping his hands he would have, because the only purpose of the Temple - and the only thing Vitiate needs to be revivified - is causing death and feeding on it.

Even were auxiliary wizardry required on Revan’s part, it still doesn’t excuse the fact that that is evidently not what he was doing with the Temple. It’s “a device for mass ritual sacrifice” “capable of killing every living thing on this moon, as fuel for the Emperor’s resurrection.” Revan’s attack that backlashed merely encompassed one kilometer, not the entire world, indicating he wasn’t using the Temple at all - and nowhere in the game is he actually stated to be doing that. He merely “created a Force resonance with The Machine’s core, and is channelling its power into an immense attack” (link). He was channelling the power through his own body, not through the Temple, so in other words, it's not in any way different from a conventional energy attack like Force lightning - except of course for the fact that Revan had to:

Since “Attacks unleashed in combat reflect the energies an individual can summon at a moment’s notice,” Revan “charging up his power hundreds of times longer than normal places him at an utterly unnatural level of power” on top of his already double-amped state according to the same logic you use to argue against Vader - yet all he can do is unleash a 1 km blast. Therefore the Ziost feat would be so far beyond combative Revan’s power it’s farcical. In this debate, Revan doesn’t get any amps, nor can he afford to charge his power for over two minutes, much less for however long it would take to devastate a planet, so his damage output here is a mere fraction of even the 1 km blast.

Your entire Machine Core backlash argument is a red herring.* It makes no difference whether Revan can tank lightsaber hits with his will because he was still downed by the backlashing energies, meaning his willpower was approaching its limits.

Darth Vader’s innards being exposed to Starkiller and the Emperor’s destructive energies for a lengthy period without disintegrating speaks of much higher willpower on his part than Revan’s. All you’re doing by arguing Revan is able to tank lightsaber hits with his will is endorsing the notion that Darth Vader can too.

Your argument is predicated on the idea that “succumbing” to the plague means being mind-controlled by Vivicar. The full line reveals what Vivicar actually means: “My plague has spread farther than you can imagine. Jedi Masters across the galaxy are succumbing to it as I speak. The plague binds these Masters to me. Hundreds of them - the heart and soul of your order” (link). He speaks “has spread” in past tense while “succumbing” and “binds” are in present tense, indicating the latter two are happening contemporaneously with one another - it’s obvious what Vivicar means here and it’s not telepathic domination.

Look at the wording of the above quotes carefully. The ritual’s purpose is to protect the user from mental enslavement, so if one has it, Vivicar’s telepathy is out of the game. The Barsen’thor defeats him, proving he is conventionally superior, yet it was the shielding ritual that made him eligible to fight Vivicar in the first place, not his general meliority. The implications of the above quotes are thus obvious: if one’s safe from Vivicar’s telepathy, they’ll be fine, but when vulnerable, even people capable of defeating Vivicar conventionally would get dominated. This means Vivicar’s telepathy is a disproportionately potent savant skill that more conventionally powerful characters like Revan cannot scale off of.

Revan’s resurrection aboard the Foundry wasn’t accomplished through his own power either. After expunging his light side from his being, he became a typical dark side spirit. Dark side spirits need an anchor to subsist in the physical realm without deliquescing into the void - this can be either a dark side nexus or a small item imbued with the dark side (link).

Revan in this case had both: all Rakatan technology is powered by and enveloped in dark side energies, and the Foundry is compared to and listed alongside the Star Forge - a nexus that dwarfs even the likes of Korriban - as one of their most notable creations (link); his mask and robes are also focal points of dark power, with the latter even amplifying the user’s inherent dark side energies (link). Therefore Revan must have latched his spirit onto his robes and mask like Darth Nihilus as well as the residual dark energies of the Foundry to prevent dissipation in the void, and re-inhabited his body sometime afterwards. Your comparison to Emperor Palpatine is a false equivalency as the Emperor did not have an anchor for most of his voyage across space and had to subsist “through sheer will.”*

Revan simply piggybacked off of a dark side nexus like all common Sith spirits without having to exert his willpower much at all. He himself conceded that rejecting his light side “was the only way to go on--to remain,” and if he united with it again, he would “fade” and “become diminished,” because as a neutral spirit he would not be amped by the dark side energies or latch his spirit onto them (link). You omitted all of this from your description of the feat.**

If the Shadow of Revan launch trailer is valid you have no basis to assume the strike team was relentlessly hammering at Revan when he was downed from the backlash.* The trailer shows there can be portions in the fight where only a single person is attacking Revan at a time, so it’s not a stretch to think a three-second-long break could occur (you yourself emphasize the transience of the duration), especially when the strike team members’ actions are at the whims of the players and not any scripted sequence.

Spirit Revan concurs when he states Dark Revan is “too weak” and “won’t last” against Vitiate (link). According to yourself, Revan exerting his will continuously would in fact make him stronger, not weaker, and he keeps his body from falling apart through sheer willpower, so we can conclude he is exerting his will throughout the fight without pause and was at full strength when Spirit Revan deemed him “too weak” to win against a heavily diminished Vitiate. To substantiate this, right before Vitiate appears, Dark Revan confidently declares he will not stop in his pursuit of his enemy’s resuscitation, deeming a confrontation a necessity. Only once Vitiate appears and demonstrates his power that Dark Revan falls to his knees in distress and deem what he just saw “impossible” and that he has “failed” (link) Even if you do manage to explain why Dark Revan would be weakened, you’d have to do backtracking and concede Revan’s willpower can’t last for 300 years if it dries over the course of one fight, meaning he would not get stronger from continuously exerting his will and thus cannot have parity with the Shit Emperor as of vanilla The Old Republic.

Take a careful look at the wording of the quote. It says “an attack,” singular, meaning you have to be a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda to survive Dooku’s Force attack. Therefore, if you’re not as powerful as Yoda, you will not survive even a single Force attack from Dooku.

Star Wars The Clone Wars adult novelization wrote:"Give me the Huttlet, Skywalker," Dooku said quietly. "Or I'll have to kill you."

He'd swallowed the ruse, then. "I think you were going to do that anyway."

"Very well."

The tone of the confrontation was strangely courteous, like an Irmenu noblemen's duel. Dooku threw out his hand and sent Force lightning crackling across the sand toward Anakin, lighting up the night. Anakin evaded the bolts and channeled the lightning to his lightsaber.

"You're making progress," Dooku said. He lunged forward with his lightsaber, forcing Anakin back, then somersaulted over him. "Being here is painful, isn't it? Your home. Too many ghosts to contemplate. Stayed away too long, perhaps..."

Mace Windu as of The Phantom Menace is stated to be the most powerful Jedi Master, aside from Yoda, who had ever walked the halls of the Jedi Temple. This statement was re-published in the relaunched Fact File in 2013, so it absolutely includes Revan, as he is a Jedi Master whom we saw walking through the corridors of the Jedi Temple in The Old Republic: Revan, and continued to be a Jedi Master after getting his mask back, all throughout his mental war against the Shit Emperor, and even during the battle of the Foundry (link). The Jedi Temple also remained the same building despite being destroyed and rebuilt during and after the Sacking of Coruscant (link), so the dilemma of Theseus’ ship has already been answered by canon.

Darth Vader (link) > Darth Tyranus >>>> TPM Mace > Revan Reborn. Of course, I think Vader is still a lot more powerful but this is going by your interpretation of Lucas’ quote to demonstrate that even if I conceded every point, Revan’s still just factually below Vader as I stated at the end of my third post.

Star Wars Insider 72 wrote:

Star Wars Insider 86 wrote:Not only is the blue lightning no longer an innovation, Luke’s inability to counter it, as Yoda did in Episode III, may give the audiences even more reason to worry -- Luke is not that powerful a Jedi.

Star Wars Encyclopedia - Darth Vader wrote:Darth Vader was encased in sinister black armor. The man underneath was mortally wounded in a lightsaber duel, and the dark suit includes extensive machinery to keep Vader alive. The sounds of his mechanical lungs accompany his every step. Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful.

Star Wars Head-To-Head wrote:An epic duel made impossible by time. The fully grown Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker crosses lightsabers with Anakin Skywalker before his brutal defeat on Mustafar. Both Skywalkers are at the peak of their powers.

Star Wars Blueprints - The Ultimate Collection wrote:

George Lucas, Star Wars The Empire Strikes Back DVD commentary wrote:Now he's half-machine and half-man so he's lost a lot of the power of the Force and a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor.

Not only have at least four sources directly stated Mustafar Vader was more powerful than Jedi Anakin, but he has also been noted to be “the Jedi’s most formidable threat,” and George Lucas himself even comments how he was at least “as strong as the Emperor” until he got maimed (link); note how the “From then on” is directly preceded by “But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up”; it’s the injuries that Lucas identifies as the cut-off point, not any sort of mental handicaps. He further reaffirms his stance when discussing the power levels of each character with Nick Gillard, who he uses as a mouthpiece: “The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented” / “In fact, the duel gives us an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the art, has an enormous talent” / “He took Force LSD. And that’s what made him a nine. So that’s dangerous. It’s dangerous because he hasn’t done it the right way. But it’s still a nine, you know? It’s still something that you need to deal with” (link). Ergo, despite his mental issues, Vader on Mustafar is still a 9. The passage you cite from Revenge of the Sith doesn’t even contradict this; it’s about how focused he is, not how powerful. Red herring.*

Vader being “overwhelmed with rage” doesn’t mean his rage made him weaker when multiple sources state the opposite. The actual meaning is even conveyed in the very sentence you’re citing: “Obi-Wan takes advantage of Darth Vader’s weaknesses and defeats him.” What weaknesses did Obi-Wan take advantage of again? Ah, yes:

It sure as hell wasn’t any decrease in Force strength Vader experienced at the last second that allowed Obi-Wan to defeat him but clearly arrogance and inability to think properly: “the Sith Lord’s arrogance got the better of him” (link). As you yourself noted, “The rage that boiled up in his brain threatened to block out his vision” which left him “blinded” and “mindless.” Obi-Wan even comments on this afterwards: “In the end, he was more determined to kill me than defend himself, and was blind with fury when I felled him” (link). That is what is being meant by “overwhelmed by rage,” not any lessening in Force power.

As to how a Yoda-tier fighter could be stalemated by someone like Obi-Wan Kenobi, I’ll link a blog where the whole situation is explained since I need to conserve space and I’d just be regurgitating most of the blog if I wrote my own explanation anyway (link).

If a line or two is retconned, then only those lines are retconned, and nothing else per the debate rules (link). You’re invoking the fallacy of composition by assuming that something is true of the whole because it’s true for part of the whole.*

This is the only fair point you’ve made so far. Credit where credit is due.

The text literally says “the power of his former apprentice.” You’ve failed to provide any rationale as to why that’s supposedly nonsensical.* Personally I don’t see anything weird about it.

Once again, quotes have no expiration date, and you can’t appeal to what the author intent was at the time. Vader and Anakin are the same person, so if Vader is “at the height of his powers” during The Empire Strikes Back, that encompasses his time in Revenge of the Sith.

Star Wars Jedi Battles wrote:This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thirst for revenge.

Obi-Wan Kenobi, Star Wars A New Hope adult novelization wrote:Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words."

Darth Vader, Star Wars Return of the Jedi adult novelization wrote:Lord Vader did not mind waiting, though, nor was he even aware of it. For it was an honor, and a noble activity, to kneel at his ruler's feet. He kept his eyes inward, seeking reflection in his own bottomless core. His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power; it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground.

His self-revival also portrays his willpower to be greater than Revan’s. Vader had no dark side nexus or paraphernalia to bind his spirit onto, meaning he would have had to pull himself back “through sheer will” like his Master. Your attempt to lowball this feat makes no sense as no one speaks metaphorically about waking up. You have no idea what happened in the interim between Vader being knocked unconscious and him coming to. If Lady Saro foresaw Vader’s death and self-resurrection, I’m pretty sure Garoche Tarkin’s statement is literal. Saro not wanting Vader killed again doesn’t contradict that; her reasoning is literally conveyed in the very sentence you’re citing: “And she won’t let me kill you as long as she thinks you can still be turned to our cause.” Killing someone - even if they can will themselves back to life - would be a pretty horrible recruitment method at least as far as that person’s trust and loyalty is concerned.

And unlike you claim, Vader’s chest panel is in fact critical to his respiratory systems since his breathing stops if it is disabled. Damaging it would also presumably cause the same to happen, which explains why he geared his entire fighting style towards protecting it (link). This validates my argument regarding Vader’s feat in Darth Vader and the Lost Command that I discussed in my second post, but also recontextualizes his fight with Starkiller, since he has to sustain himself through sheer will if his life support is compromised. In the novel and comic, Juno does just that, so for the entire rest of the fight he would have had to divert a part of his focus into willing himself to staying alive while fighting Starkiller (link). Vader is able to dominate Starkiller in the games, and in the media where he doesn’t, he has a hinderance preventing him from going all out. Seems pretty clear-cut to me.

The intensity of Vader’s attack increasing doesn’t mean he wasn’t psychologically unbalanced; it actually bolsters the idea, because Galen is pricking at his one sore spot - family - which, despite making him angrier, still hindered him in his final duel with Luke Skywalker (link): the circumstances are practically identical.

Your theory about HK-47’s comments referring exclusively to Jedi is not only false but also misinformed as he wasn’t even talking about anger or rage but making one “doubt himself, his beliefs, or his intentions.”

If a Force user can apply their power in a feat, then that is applicable power and not dependent on their Force potential. I’ve never seen any basis for your groundless fan theory in the lore whatsoever [It’s a non sequitur anyway*: “in feats that require continuous exertion, Anakin (and Marek) can immerse themselves into their unprecedented Force reserves to outlast and outperform almost anyone” doesn’t follow from “Anakin held back a theta storm despite Obi-Wan noting even Yoda likely couldn’t do that.” Why couldn’t Obi-Wan simply have been underestimating Yoda? You need more than one premise to support your conclusion.

Star Wars Clone Wars Gambit - Siege wrote:"You'll be fine, Anakin," said Obi-Wan. "I doubt anyone will ever break your Temple leap record."

The one he'd set just over a year ago. The one that had smashed Mace Windu's leap by nearly fifteen meters. No, probably no one ever would break that.

Lightsaber cuts cause smoke too.

And since Vader wanted to test whether the Dark Apprentice was freed of his memories, why would he pit him up against the other clones who weren’t part of the original Galen Marek’s life?

Darth Vader himself was, though, more than anyone else. They dueled to test the Dark Apprentice’s loyalty, whether he’d keep attacking his Master even if he commanded him to stop (like the previous clone did (link)), which explains why they cease fighting. And no, this doesn’t debunk my original argument because if the Dark Apprentice could have crushed Vader instantly, there wouldn’t have been any struggle and the Dark Apprentice wouldn’t have been wounded. They sparred for some time, but Vader brought it to a close in mid-way through to test the Dark Apprentice - that’s the most likely interpretation.

By “Galen’s clones” I obviously meant the Dark Apprentice and the protagonist of The Force Unleashed II…

Anyway, Starkiller believes the clones which he obliterates could have easily beaten Darth Vader, but he only has experience against Vader from the first game.

You’re completely neglecting the other versions of the event. In the video games, Starkiller “continually attacks Vader in a frenzied state” and the only words he speaks to him are death threats.Almost throughout the whole ordeal, Starkiller is literally glowing blue and sparkling with electricity, which is the signal of Force fury in the game, granting “infinite Force energy” and “augmenting” his Force powers (link). The Prima Official Game Guide also notes Starkiller uses Force rage right before Vader ragdolls him for over 20 seconds in the Wii version (link).

The mere thought of Juno Eclipse is enough to restore Starkiller to peak capacity even after being deprived of sustenance for 13 days straight and being on the brink of death (link). Throughout the story, Starkiller performs infinitely more taxing stunts than surviving in a pit for 13 days, so we can infer the thought of Juno kept him strong for his whole quest and refreshed him every time he exerted himself to his limits. During his duel with Darth Vader, “knowing Juno was close, he fought his former Master with single-minded focus,” meaning his prior exhaustion would be gone and he was operating at peak performance level against Vader.

Sam Witwer, who you use as a legitimate source, clarifies that even then, Vader threw the fight and had been toying with Starkiller the whole time (link). Do note, however, that my argument functions perfectly fine without Witwer as well.

The Prima Official Game Guide for the game notes Vader is a lesser lightsaber duelist than a Force user.

And we have multiple instances of Vader ragdolling someone he struggled with in a duel (link).

Him doing that to Starkiller when he wasn’t just stalemating him in sabers, but winning, is 100% an indication of vast superiority.

Are we reading the same book? Luke “not battling to the fullest”obviously refers to him retreating and stating he would not fight Vader, as contrasted with his earlier fury-driven assault during which his power was increased dramatically (link).* 

George Lucas, Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi DVD commentary wrote:The key issue in these movies is for a Jedi not to use anger while he’s fighting. So the final confrontation here is primarily about trying to make Luke become angry, so that when he’s fighting his father he’s fighting with anger and, therefore, begins to use the dark side of the Force. But in The Empire Strikes, we had them confront each other and fight together. But, in this one, Luke is much more mature, so he knows that he shouldn’t be fighting him - that is the path to the dark side. It's a confrontation between two people. One of them doesn't want to fight. The other one keeps trying to push him into it. And then in the end, when he gives up finally and really fights, what’s happened there ultimately is that Luke is turning to the dark side and going to be lost.

I have no idea what you’re trying to prove with the quote from The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader as Luke was still fueled by hate there as per Anakin Skywalker: The Story of Darth Vader.

I’ve tried to reconcile these sources with the rest of the lore to the best of my ability but if you don’t buy my explanations, that’s not really my problem. These sources are retconned by Vader tanking the Emperor’s full potency as opposed to Luke’s failure anyway, so you win nothing.

George Lucas, The Making of Return of the Jedi wrote:Vader also knows that the Emperor is toying with Luke. He has been told by the Emperor, ‘When he starts to strike me, you’re going to have to take him out.’ If Vader doesn’t block Luke’s lazer sword, the Emperor could just raise his hand and that would be the end of it. Then Vader would be in trouble: "Lord Vader, what happened to you? Did you not get your cue?"

Yes, Luke “is able to hold up against” Darth Vader “at the height of his powers”while Vader is toying with him (link) - there is no actual relativity between an all-out Vader and Luke as of The Empire Strikes Back. If you’re gonna use a retcon as an argument, then so can I.

Darth Vader, Shadows of the Empire wrote:When they fought, he had also tried to strike the boy down, but that had been merely a test. Had he been able to kill Luke easily, Luke would not have been worth the effort to recruit. But although he had certainly attempted to defeat Luke, the boy had held his own. Despite Vader's superior skill, despite his experience, Luke had survived with no more damage than an easily repaired amputated hand. The meeting had made Vader feel, not a normal occurrence lately. There had been the thrill at meeting a worthy opponent and pride that the one so strongly opposing him was his own son.

It’s vague in that “All that denotes is that the gap isn’t miniscule but that’s it. It doesn’t establish Vader would get ragdolled, one-shot, or anything” as stated in my third post.

Vader witnessing Luke’s strength first-hand means nothing. His designs on Luke didn’t change at all from what they were in The Empire Strikes Back.

If he truly believed the Emperor to be “omniscient” he would have thought his Master would have sensed his rebellious intentions when he is thinking them aloud right next to him. Instead he is perfectly comfortable plotting a coup without fear of being killed by the Emperor.

The quote literally reads “Bad enough that Vader was as powerful as he was”; Vader’s a threat because of his power in the Force - which is also the context of the whole paragraph as I’ve shown in my second post - not because of his proclivity to rebel. Even the very next clause is “Palpatine was certain of his loyalty to the dark side”; indeed, the Emperor wasn’t expecting Vader’s betrayal at all (link).

If it’s “odd” to use the literal dictionary definition of “solely” (link) i.e. appealing to the English language in your opinion, that’s not my problem. You seemed to make to liberal use of the same tactic in your Ziost argument, though, so it’s ironic you’d disparage me for doing the same.

The armor is retrofitted with insulation but it's still vulnerable to lightning, which is the reason he took as much damage as he did (link); it wasn't even his weaker Force abilities relative to the Emperor that caused his death. Ergo, if he didn't have a vulnerability to lightning, he wouldn't have died despite being weakened. This showing is looking increasingly better for Vader, not worse lol. For quantification, it's simple: he's outside the Emperor's one-shot range.

How are they not mutually exclusive? You don’t actually explain that; you just repeat the fallacy of false equivalency over and over by citing examples which don’t match Vader’s situation.* His body isn’t just injured here; it’s “weakened” which is distinct because the Force is also a large factor in determining Vader’s physical prowess. As articulated above: “since the only thing required in killing the Emperor is hurling him down the shaft, which is a physical activity, the feat was solely accomplished through physical augmentation, meaning physical augmentation functions as a measuring stick for Vader’s Force power in that situation. Ergo, as Vader was physically weaker than usual, he was less powerful in the Force than normal.” Just because Maul got and Kit Fisto would get stronger than usual doesn’t mean Vader did since the types of amps you describe are completely different in origin: love, rage, and generic empowerment. You baselessly assume the first must somehow be comparable to the latter two.**

DarthAnt66 inextricably links Force power with willpower to claim Revan must have grown in lockstep with the Shit Emperor, but arbitrarily separates them so Revan would be able to exert his will to its fullest without using the Force…

DarthAnt66 has forbidden me from rescinding my points when it benefits Revan, but he himself literally edits his post (link) so he wouldn’t look bad.

DarthAnt66 downplays the feats of other characters when they are on a nexus, but uses Revan’s when it benefits the argument…

DarthAnt66 uses sources that contradict the primary source material like the Shadow of Revan launch trailer where Revan never removes his mask during the duel, the entire strike team sans Satele disappears for some reason, and there are soldiers fighting on both sides at one point (link), but he thinks it’s wrong to use sources that feature different events to the primary source material in arguments that favor Darth Vader…

DarthAnt66 claims a ritual is required to resuscitate a spirit to make an excuse for Revan using the Temple of Sacrifice - “a device for mass ritual sacrifice” “capable of killing every living thing on this moon, as fuel for the Emperor’s resurrection” (link) - instead of just liquidating the biosphere with a snap of his fingers, but argues the Ziost feat isn’t a ritual despite it being designed to “replenish” Vitiate and he was in fact “revitalized after annihilating all life on Ziost,” “grew stronger,” and experienced a “rebirth” (link)…

DarthAnt66 agreed to a set of rules, but lambasts me for abiding by those rules as if I’ve done something wrong…

DarthAnt66 agreed to a set of rules, but ignores those rules by citing an author quote (link) in an argument against Darth Vader…

DarthAnt66 argues Starkiller would have lost because he was distracted by a vision, but ignores the fact that Darth Vader’s lightning-stiffened prosthetics immobilized him, which amounted to “a distraction” that “lasted only a moment” (link) and claims his loss was legitimate…

DarthAnt66 invents new rules about how the Force works to wank Revan’s willpower, but throws those rules aside and claims Vader withstanding Starkiller’s lightning ravaging his innards is just a failed application of a standard Force barrier…