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DarthAnt66Moderator
SWTOR Scaling - A New Perspective (2024)
February 1st 2024, 5:39 am
[NOTE: ALL IMAGES ARE CURRENTLY NOT WORKING. I AM WORKING ON RESTORING THEM.]
This is probably the longest Star Wars post I have written since Super Fight III in 2018. I propose a major reassessment of SWTOR's main characters and scaling, introducing several new scans and arguments, as well as resurrecting some forgotten ones. The blog is split into six main sections -- one per post. Click the spoiler tags to open and read the contents within.
Section 1. A very short preface on author intent
Section 2. The Outlander is not as powerful as we think
Section 3. Valkorion is not infinitely more powerful than the main characters of SWTOR
Section 4. Reanalysis of threats to Valkorion: Revan, the Hero of Tython, and Vaylin
Section 5. Some preemptive counters
Section 6. Conclusion
[hideedit]
This is probably the longest Star Wars post I have written since Super Fight III in 2018. I propose a major reassessment of SWTOR's main characters and scaling, introducing several new scans and arguments, as well as resurrecting some forgotten ones. The blog is split into six main sections -- one per post. Click the spoiler tags to open and read the contents within.
Section 1. A very short preface on author intent
Section 2. The Outlander is not as powerful as we think
Section 3. Valkorion is not infinitely more powerful than the main characters of SWTOR
Section 4. Reanalysis of threats to Valkorion: Revan, the Hero of Tython, and Vaylin
Section 5. Some preemptive counters
Section 6. Conclusion
[hideedit]
- DarthAnt66Moderator
Section 1. A very short preface on author intent
February 1st 2024, 5:39 am
Section 1. A very short preface on author intent
- Click to read:
Contrary to what you may think or like, author intent is considered “as official as it’s going to get” in the case of an author clarifying their work in the absence of other canon material doing so. In fact, Lucasfilm says that all author intent is “considered,” chronicled in the Holocron database system when possible, and is the first thing officials look to in order to answer specific lore questions. Accordingly, I make several author intent arguments across the post when it is appropriate to do so. Feel free to read the below quotes to appreciate the full context of these endorsements.
See, I told you it was a very short preface!
- DarthAnt66Moderator
Section 2. The Outlander is not as powerful as we think
February 1st 2024, 5:40 am
Section 2. The Outlander is not as powerful as we think
- Open to read:
Music recommendation as you read: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN5X4kGhAtU
A. Separating the Hero of Tython from the Outlander
We cannot and should not continue to treat the Outlander as an extension of the Hero of Tython with respect to power scaling. Canonically, the Outlander is no more likely the Hero than the Smuggler. And while the Hero is probably intended to be the Outlander based on many indicators, the Hero who is intended to be the Outlander is not the same super-powerful Hero of his class story.
The story of KOTFE and KOTET must be written in a way that makes sense for all classes simultaneously; indeed, all classes show the same level of difficulty fighting the same opponents. But the Hero of Tython should perform far better than the other classes, being constantly labeled and shown to be far more powerful than any other class in his story. The very fact that alternate realities can play in which the Hero and Darth Nox, let alone the Smuggler, struggle precisely equally against Arcann necessitates that the Hero is not as powerful as he once was.
For some context, Hall Hood and Drew Karpyshyn helmed the Hero of Tython's class story. As expanded on later, Hood and Karpyshyn write the Hero as by far the most powerful Jedi alive and the successor to Revan -- a Jedi champion legitimately able to challenge Valkorion one-on-one. Hood says the Hero did not merely destroy the Voice of the Emperor but "all but destroyed" Valkorion proper, and that this brink-of-death experience radically changed Valkorion's perspectives.Hall Hood wrote:Lemme tell ya, of all the whoppers you've been told by Valkorion and his agents, the one about the Hero of Tython only killing the Voice is the biggest. The Emperor was all but destroyed by the Hero of Tython on Dromund Kaas. That's why he needed to be "reborn" by consuming all life on Ziost. Bringing himself back from the brink is what changed Vitiate's thinking from "destroy everything" to "force order on the galaxy
Meanwhile, Charles Boyd wrote and directed most of SWTOR's expansions, from SOR to EOO. He also originally wrote the Republic Trooper class story and is a vocal advocate for class parity. He infamously said the Trooper could plausibly defeat "any other class" if he fights at a range. When Boyd writes the Outlander's fight scenes, he is imagining some composite equal across all classes. But fundamental to the Hero's original concept is that he's the best of the best! It doesn't work. The plot of SOR even becomes incoherent when taking the Hero at face-value. SOR revolves around everyone stating no single being can defeat Vitiate, all forgetting that the player (the Hero of Tython) literally defeated Vitiate in single-combat just years prior! Boyd overlooks this fight virtually altogether, saying the last person to stand up to Vitiate anywhere near the Outlander does on Ziost was Revan!Charles Boyd wrote:How does a Trooper hold his own against a Sith? Sure, the Trooper can be at a pretty severe disadvantage if he finds himself within melee range of a lightsaber-wielding maniac, but if a Trooper engages any other class on his own terms, he should have better-than-even odds.
Put simply:
- Canonically, there is no official Outlander
- The Hero of Tython Outlander performs identical to the Darth Nox Outlander, which means he weakened
- Intent-wise, the creator of the Outlander doesn't recognize the Hero of Tython's supremacy
Any way you come at it, you cannot scale the Outlander off the Hero of Tython.
b. Re-examining the Outlander vs Arcann and Vaylin
Charles Boyd credits Valkorion with "at least partial credit" for the Outlander being able to defeat Vaylin. And as the Outlander seems pressed to his limits there, he probably could not have won otherwise. In fact, when Vaylin unleashes her attack that incapacitates Arcann and Senya, the Outlander is only saved by Valkorion's spirit shielding him:
Moreover, Boyd explains that Valkorion may be intervening "AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT" to help the Outlander defeat Vaylin. There is no way to scale Outlander around or even near Vaylin.
Although the Outlander later defeats Vaylin -- even Vaylin and Arcann combined in the dark side path -- in his mindscape, Boyd cautions that mindscape battles do not reflect how fights would unfold physically and are rather "a battle of wills" and "purely mental." It is repeatedly affirmed and shown that the Outlander's will -- in contrast with his Force power -- is second to only Valkorion.
But the possibility of Valkorion intervening "AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT" extends to Arcann as well. Indeed, even in their climatic battle at the end of KOTFE, Arcann instantly overpowers the Outlander. Only Valkorion's direct intervention by blocking Arcann's lightsaber with his hands prevents the Outlander from dying. Many have assumed that this is the only time Valkorion intervenes here, but there is no reason to believe that.
Before the fight, the Outlander trained extensively under Darth Marr and Satele Shan's new Force philosophy to become more powerful. But Boyd notes that their Force philosophy is just their opinion, no more valid than Valkorion's own. It is possible that the newfound power that Arcann senses in the Outlander is instead predominantly Valkorion's own. That is what Arcann thinks.
Even besides Valkorion's intervention, Boyd has repeatedly stated that the combat dynamic between the Outlander and Vaylin is well abstracted in gameplay and to refer to that. This logically extends to Arcann as well. In gameplay, the Outlander requires a literal shield to block Arcann's enraged lightning attack. Without the shield, the Outlander is guaranteed to die. Moreover, the shield must absorb a great amount of Arcann's energy before the Outlander can physically bash apart Arcann's guard. Without this "empowered bash," Arcann cannot be defeated. This points to Arcann being more powerful but the Outlander being an experienced and adaptable fighter. And although there is no direct evidence that Valkorion intervened in their final fight in KOTET, the possibility is again there. This makes me hesitant to rank the Outlander significantly above Arcann, if at all.
C. How powerful actually is the Outlander?
I will leave the Outlander's growth across later expansions to other debaters. But I want to cover what is true about the Outlander before any growth.
1. The universal characteristic of all eight classes is that they are "the best in the galaxy" and "the best of your breed in the galaxy." Hood says the classes should feel as true stand-in for their film counterparts, just even more awesome. For example, the Emperor's Wrath story is "Vader plus a million." This should stay true for some composite of all eight.Interviewer and Hall Hood wrote:We’ve heard statements in the past that as a Smuggler, you’re the best in the galaxy… as a Bounty Hunter, you’re the best in the galaxy. But in an E3 interview with Dallas Dickinson, we also heard that the Jedi will just be average Jedi; thousands of them running around out there. Can you clarify this?
You’re not going to be average anything in our game. Where’s the fun in that? Why would you play the Jedi Knight if you weren’t going to be able to get the Luke Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi or Anakin Skywalker experience? It has to be huge and epic! And as someone who has written for the Jedi Knight, I can tell you it’s huge… it’s epic… it’s amazing. You’re gonna get to places in the plot where you say “wait a minute, I get to do what? My quest is to do what?!” And that’s true of the Sith classes as well. The Sith classes are incredible. The Sith Warrior story is Vader plus a million. The Inquisitor – everything you like about Palpatine is there, and then some. Our idea has always been to start from what is great about the characters from the movies, and then add as much on to that as we possibly can.
So, whatever class you play, are you the best of your breed in the galaxy?
Absolutely. As an Imperial Agent, you’re the super best. As a Sith Warrior, the Emperor calls you personally. As a Jedi Knight, you are the last hope in the galaxy!
2. The Outlander defeats Vitiate possessing the Jedi Weaponsmaster Surro on Ziost single-handedly. This significantly thwarted Vitiate's plans, per even Vitiate himself. Boyd says that the Outlander legitimately "stood up" to Vitiate here and, accordingly, Vitiate decided to entrap, study, manipulate, and corrupt the Outlander because he is "a legitimate threat to him."
[Outlander vs Master Surro: https://youtu.be/V-F1eWhvfGU?si=WxIDM3rKDMZry91t&t=1153 (19:13)]
3. The Outlander is Valkorion's "most powerful opponent" as of the start of KOTFE. Boyd has endorsed this accolade on Twitter. (Note that this is before the time-jump of Arcann's war, hence why the Outlander is ranked above Arcann.) This means he is more powerful than Darth Marr or Satele Shan, both the full package:
Darth Marr has great Force potential as evidenced by being the youngest Sith to ever join the Dark Council, great actualized power as evidenced by being so corrupted in the dark side that those who gaze upon his ruin visage commit suicide, and great proven power as evidenced by being described as the "most senior" and "de-facto leader" of the Dark Council despite not being its most elder member. Marr is also often depicted as an equal to prime Darth Nox, who "utterly destroyed" Darth Councillor Darth Thanaton, and effortlessly defeated Darth Lachris, moving faster than she could perceive and overpowering her with a gesture.
Satele Shan, as Revan's descendent, has "immense" and "prodigious" Force powers. She was the premiere Jedi champion of the first Great Galactic War and is now a wizened Jedi Grand Master in her 60s. She blocked, absorbed, and broke Darth Malgus' lightsaber with her palm, an unduplicated feat for a Force user neither a tutaminis savant nor in oneness.
So, even without the Hero of Tython's scaling, the Outlander still starts off as a tier 7 or 8 combatant. But he's no Yoda.
- DarthAnt66Moderator
Section 3. Valkorion is not infinitely more powerful than the main characters of SWTOR
February 1st 2024, 5:40 am
Section 3. Valkorion is not infinitely more powerful than the main characters of SWTOR
- Open to read:
Music recommendation as you read: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy7-UwgxOCcA. What Valkorion Is
First, let's establish what Valkorion is. Everything below applies up to his time.
Valkorion is the most powerful Force user ever, the most dominating Force user ever, and the most powerful dark sider ever. He is immeasurably, unfathomably, and supremely powerful, as well as all-powerful.
Valkorion's existence is even a weight on the Force that seemingly weakened everyone for centuries.
Vitiate's co-creator Drew Karpyshyn says Vitiate and OT Palpatine are effectively as powerful as characters can be in Star Wars and have "world destroying abilities." Additionally, when a fan describes (Revan novel) Vitiate as "even more powerful" than OT Palpatine with "unimaginable strength," being "the greatest opponent anyone has ever faced," Karpyshyn says this analysis is "pretty solid" and "sort of what I was going for in the novel," with the "only thing" he would add being that he is also "very insecure."Drew Karphysyn wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiHg3odlDN0&t=13m57s (13:57)
“I think there’s only a certain level of power, you can’t get above it. The Sith Emperor in the TOR series, it’s hard to imagine that someone gets more powerful than that. The Emperor in the movies, in the Classic Trilogy, is pretty powerful too - It’s more hinted at than explicitly shown. People don’t necessarily appreciate how powerful he is because the real trick is to not have to constantly use your full power, you need to scheme and plot and manipulate people so that you’re not constantly throwing around the world destroying abilities.”Drew Karpyshyn wrote:https://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t600130.html
Question: "So, a character in the star wars universe that has always intrigued me is Emperor Vitiate, the main antagonist of Revan, as well as the Star Wars: The Old Republic MMO. From how he is depicted in your novel, he strikes me as a being similar to Darth Sidious in control and appearance, but at the core he is far madder, nihilistic, even more powerful. He seems to have transcended both jedi and sith, rather becoming an entity of unimaginable strength. When Revan fights him, it not only seems like the greatest opponent he's ever faced, but rather the greatest opponent anyone has ever faced. My question to you: Was this how you imagined the Emperor when you wrote your novel? A godlike abomination bent on destroying the galaxy to become even more powerful? Because from implications on his backstory, it seems that he's already transcended all jedi and sith, from any era. Thanks."
Answer: "I didn't actually create the Emperor; the SWTOR online team had fleshed out much of his character and backstory before I came on the project. However, I think your analysis of his character is pretty solid - that's sort of what I was going for in the novel. The only thing I'd add is that he's also very insecure: he has immortal power, and he's terrified of losing it. It's sort of ironic, because the stronger he gets the more desperate he becomes to hold onto his power."
Valkorion's other co-creator Hall Hood seems to think Valkorion and DE Palpatine are equally powerful. Although Hood's comments are forever deleted, a discussion thread exists of members discussing the Tweet. A fan asks Hood if both Valkorion and DE Palpatine wielded Force storms and if their power-level is the same. In his first tweet, Hood responds that Valkorion's Force storms are focused and controlled whereas Palpatine's are more destructive and on a mass scale. In his second tweet, Hood seems to say that he regards Valkorion as the Palpatine of the Old Republic era. Although the specific wording or full content is lost, most debaters at the time -- pro-Valkorion and pro-Palpatine alike -- interpreted the tweets as Hood believing they are equally powerful.
[Tweet discussion thread: https://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=640212]
Some of Valkorion's most notable feats include:
- Valkorion has multiple team-busts, such as destroying nine Dark Councillors in his throne room and utterly mind dominating five of the most powerful Jedi alive with a causal hand-sweep.
- While inactive and on "the brink of destruction," Valkorion's spirit is still repeatedly identified as a more powerful dark side nexus than the concentrated, active spirits of Tulak Hord, Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, and Exar Kun.
- While greatly weakened, Valkorion created monoliths, which are creatures "beyond Sithspawn" and "quite possibly unkillable" as they are made "not of living tissue but the dark side itself."
- While greatly weakened, Valkorion telepathically dominated virtually everyone on Ziost, consisting of millions of Sith. At a fan convention, the developers joked about how good this feat is (link).
- Valkorion one-shot Darth Marr with his Force lightning and repeatedly blocks Arcann’s lightsaber attacks with his hands.
- Depending on your interpretation, Valkorion either can slow down his perception such that even Arcann-level characters seem frozen in time, or can create a Force stasis field that freezes the Eternal Fleet, the Old Republic's largest fleet.
I also want to impress that Valkorion being a godlike dark side Force user with a ridiculous backstory and aesthetics and powers plainly based on high-end interpretations of Palpatine would have to have been approved by all levels of the company. This is not quite the same as creating a character like Gethzerion, Darth Caedus, or Darth Krayt. SWTOR is the largest and most expensive project ever undertaken by Lucasfilm Licensing. In fact, SWTOR won the Guinness World Record for the video game with the most dialogue ever. And Valkorion’s powers being off-the-charts is such a character defining attribute, literally listed within the first sentence of any source ever introducing him and hyper-story relevant, that it must have been contemplated and agreed upon by higher executives. There’s just no way the SWTOR developer intent of him being a top tier Force user is not also an internal Lucasfilm position.B. What Valkorion is Not
Valkorion is, undoubtedly, by far the most powerful Force user of the era. But it has been overlooked that one of the central narratives around Valkorion is that he is not quite as powerful as he lets on. That is, he is super powerful -- but not truly omnipotent.
1. Cataclysm of Ziost
Case-in-point: Ziost. In the game's presentation, Valkorion is able to consume all life on Ziost while greatly weakened and without mention of ritual. However, Boyd explains that Valkorion is actually not quite powerful enough to consume Ziost by himself. Please read the full interview below. Ziost is something that Valkorion "probably can't just do all the time" and is a "very special thing"; otherwise, he would have done it more often! It is a "trump card he could pull out" in certain situations. Boyd believes Valkorion likely even "laid some groundwork" on Ziost beforehand and that although he could "unleash all sorts of crazy chaos" on Ziost off-the-cuff, he would need "a little bit of prep work" to raze the world like he did. So, he's close -- but not quite there!Interviewer and Charles Boyd wrote:https://passionatelycasual.wordpress.com/2018/06/30/episode-47-loretastic-devs-and-where-to-find-them/
Chicken and the egg: Which came first: Vitiate or Zildrog? We know a thousand years ago, Vitiate did the whole Nathema thing and killed off a bunch of people. Was this a thing that was granted by Zildrog, or was Zildrog created to do that?
So, Zildrog definitely came first as it's a piece of Iokath technology and Iokath long predates all known civilization besides the Gree and Rakata. It's in that sort of time frame. They would have created Zildrog when they created the other gods. To me, saying Zildrog created Vitiate or helped him become what he became is: yes. But Zildrog is just an implement. It's like saying the ritual dagger gave the evil sorcerer his power. It's a part of it, but it's not the only thing. Zildrog is not ultimately the power behind everything.
Was Zildrog the tool used in the first destruction of Nathema?
Right, exactly.
That leads to another question about Ziost. We see another very similar thing happen to Ziost. Does that mean Zildrog was involved in that?
Not to me. It's a matter of growth of power. When Vitiate first did his ritual on Nathema, he was not powerful enough to obliterate all life on a planet by himself. He was acquiring power through that act, and that's why he required a machine like Zildrog to help him do it. He needed a big knife to stab everyone at once. But the Emperor we're dealing with by the time of Ziost, that's hundreds of years later, and he's accumulated far more power, and at that point he's able to do something like that. However, given he only does it that once, we're left to assume he probably can't just do this all the time. This is a very special thing. I'm sure he would say that he can do it any time he wanted, but obviously if he could do it any time he wanted, all of that ritual he was setting up across the Jedi Knight storyline would have been unnecessary. So we have to assume that that was a trump card he could pull out here. If I were to set up that storyline -- and now we're getting very theoretical -- I would have set up some notion he laid some groundwork of Ziost so that he could use it for that purpose down the road in the case. In my head, that's the way it works. It's something he kind of laid the groundwork for, one way of another. But over the top, theatrical, deceptive person that he is, he's going to portray it as merely an act of his power and he is unstoppable in all ways and to him this is only Tuesday.
So you're saying he wouldn't necessarily have been able to do it on Quesh?
I think it would have taken some groundwork before he could show up and beat everyone. It would take a lot less than it took on Nathema, he wouldn't need a robot from a thousand of years ago to kill everyone at once. He could certainly unleash all sorts of crazy chaos. He is immensely powerful. But that utter level of destruction we see on Ziost, I think he needed a little bit of prep work.
2. The truthCharles Boyd and Interviewer wrote:https://passionatelycasual.wordpress.com/2018/06/30/episode-47-loretastic-devs-and-where-to-find-them/
It's important to remember the people telling us stuff about Vitiate are his instruments are all crazy. These are people who are obsessed with whatever the Emperor tells them or whatever they interpret. So we're acting on suspect information throughout those storylines. So when they say, 'Ah the Voice of the Emperor is this!' we don't know if that's true. Because they're crazy.
So when someone says Servant One says there can only be one Voice, we're taking that as a grain of salt?
Right, as far as he knows. There's this entire sphere of influence of the Empire is this sphere of mysteries of people that deal with the esoteric knowledge of the Emperor, with ancient rituals, and his power [unclear]. I think, to a large degree, that's him exerting his control over the Empire by instructing a religion that they will follow and chase their own tails down rather than challenge him. Instead, everyone is obsessed with honoring him. To some degree, that's all window dressing. He's able to manipulate them.
Boyd emphasizes that Valkorion wants everyone else to think he is capable of this, though -- that something like consuming Ziost is "only Tuesday" for him and that he is "unstoppable in all ways." Boyd says a lot of the in-universe information about Valkorion is "suspect" as Valkorion has carefully pushed the messaging to the Sith Empire that he is omnipotent so that the Sith "chase their own tails down rather than challenge him." Boyd says that this is, "to some degree," "all window dressing," and Valkorion is just manipulating everyone. Going through the game again, I realized he manipulated the audience as well.
Valkorion desperately wants to be invincible and have infinite power. He works hard to sell this lie. And most of the galaxy bought it. Satele Shan says the Outlander "proved" to everyone else that he actually could be beaten. They must have doubted that prior. SOR features some of the main characters screaming about Valkorion's apparent omnipotence. But since SOR, the developers have also dropped seeds of doubt about whether this is true. Lana Beniko observes twice in ROTE that Valkorion may not actually be as powerful as they were led to believe. And multiple scenes across KOTFE and KOTET feature the Outlander questioning Valkorion's power. I would submit that the Outlander wondering whether Arcann or Vaylin are more powerful than Valkorion to also be examples of this.
3. Karpyshyn vs BoydRevan novel wrote:“He’s quarantined Dromund Kaas,” Meetra said, trying to lead them to the same conclusion. “What if he’s preparing to do the same thing here that he did on Nathema?”
Scourge hadn’t considered that possibility, and it chilled him to his core.
“Is that possible?” he asked. “Nyriss told me the ritual on Nathema took days, if not weeks. And the Emperor had to trick hundreds of other powerful Sith into working with him so he could draw on their power.”
“He’s stronger now,” Revan said. “But even if it’s possible, I don’t think he’ll go that far. At least not yet. He is too patient, too careful. Dromund Kaas is the heart of his Empire and the seat of his power. He has too many valuable resources here to throw it all away. But once he is ready, there will be nothing left to stop him from launching his invasion of the Republic.”
I posted a quote earlier where Karpyshyn describes Valkorion wielding “world-destroying abilities.” However, I don’t think that’s at odds with Boyd’s position. Karpyshyn provides context to what he means in the Revan novel. The Jedi Exile speculates Valkorion may have put Dromund Kaas under quarantine because he plans to consume the world. Scourge wonders if Valkorion could do something like that, and Revan entertains that it is possible. That is to say, both Boyd and Karpyshyn think it’s on the cards, but it seems to be toward the limits of his abilities, and some preparation may be necessary first. This is also consistent with Palpatine or Abeloth, neither of whom ever showing spontaneous planet-draining powers.
4. Mindscape fights
Valkorion's mind-breaking feats in the Outlander and Satele Shan's mindscape are often cited as proof he's infinitely beyond the rest. In KOTET, Valkorion overpowers the Outlander, Vaylin, and Arcann combined. In EOO, Valkorion overpowers the Outlander, Revan, Vaylin, Arcann, Thexan, Senya, Darth Marr, Satele Shan, the Jedi Exile, Scourge, and Kira Carsen combined! Although these performances are still undoubtedly among the best feats in history, Boyd explicitly says they would not be a reflection of how a fight would go down in the physical realm. Boyd "wouldn't take the fight too literally," emphasizing that it is instead a "battle of wills, purely mental." So, that begs the question: how would a fight between Valkorion and these characters actually go down in the physical realm? Let’s review what we know.
(Note I am not trying to just write-off the mindscape feats completely. I revisit the topic at the end in section 5 with two final key observations.)C. Valkorion's Growth -- or Lack Thereof
But first, I also want to propose that Valkorion probably did not grow significantly more powerful after the Nathema ritual, or at least between the Revan novel iteration and KOTFE. We have several reasons to suspect this:
1. The source of Vitiate’s godlike powers are primarily attributed to the Nathema ritual. In fact, the Hero of Tython and Scourge believe that "all" of Vitiate's power comes from Nathema.
2. As aforementioned, Drew Karpyshyn believes there is a limit to how powerful a character can be and certainly puts novel Vitiate there, agreeing he is perhaps more powerful than OT Palpatine who he already considers around that limit. Regardless of whether you agree there is a limit, what is important is that Karpyshyn does -- and so clearly does not recognize SWTOR Vitiate or Valkorion as leagues better.
3. EOO shows Valkorion's three main forms: Tenebrae, Vitiate, and Valkorion. They're presented as three faces wielding the same incredible power. It's never even implied they weren't the same power in life. One would expect Tenebrae (dated to around the Revan novel) to acknowledge Valkorion's vastly greater powers if he had them, but instead he just accosts him for his failures. Funnily, in the final boss fight, Valkorion's phase is the easiest and shortest of the three.
4. Valkorion seems to have some property that caps or sets his power-level. In SOR, Revan destroying Yavin IV and funneling that energy into Vitiate would directly restore him to his former power-level. In ROTE, Valkorion consuming Ziost directly restores him to his former power-level. In EOO, Tenebrae manages to restore himself to precisely his former power-level. Whatever this mechanism is, it is more likely tied to Nathema than something developed or obtained between the Revan novel and SWTOR. Especially so as this may be Karpyshyn’s belief of a power-level limit manifesting in some in-universe specific or general Force mechanism.
(Curiously, this mechanism may also set a lower-bound, too. Revan cannot just resurrect Vitiate to a weakened physical form. Resurrecting Vitiate first entails the full restoration of Vitiate's powers. Likewise, Vitiate does not inhabit Valkorion again until he is explicitly restored to his former powers. It has been repeatedly noted that the Nathema ritual fundamentally changed Vitiate's mind, making it unlike and greater than any other in the galaxy. Perhaps to fully power his mind, like as needed while occupying a physical body, his full powers are needed. Otherwise, Vitiate seems to operate in a reduced, distant, or slumbering state. At the start of SOR, Vitiate's inactive spirit is identified several times as far more powerful than active Sith spirits like Exar Kun. Yet it remains inactive. Only after feeding on the deaths of the Revanite War -- "a war on a scale [the Republic] has never seen" -- does Vitiate awaken. Clearly, Vitiate requires a vast amount of baseline energy to even function.)Revan novel wrote:The Emperor was no longer a member of the Sith species; his power and immortality had transformed him into a being unique in the galaxy. When he spoke of life and death, it had far deeper meaning than the mere physical existence of the lesser beings that served him.
5. Novel Vitiate has the same godlike presentation of later iterations. Perhaps even more so. He is labeled the most powerful Sith in history. He speaks in a chorus of a thousand voices. He kills nine Dark Councillors at once. A brush against his mind is described as experiencing horrors that dwarf the worst nightmares of the dark side. If there was a big difference in power, we would expect some distinct change in Vitiate's portrayal.Darth Nyriss, Revan novel wrote:Lord Vitiate sacrificed millions, stealing their life force to make himself immortal. Their deaths also made him stronger than any Sith who had come before, and he ceased to be known as Lord Vitiate. On that day, the Emperor was truly born.Revan novel wrote:There was something strange about the Emperor’s voice. It didn’t sound like the voice of a single being. It had an unusual echo and resonance, almost as if a great multitude were speaking his words in perfect symphony. A grim theory passed unbidden through Scourge’s mind: was it possible all those that had been consumed by the ritual on Nathema still existed in some form within the Emperor himself?Revan novel wrote:As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his true self.
Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor’s mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.Scourge, Revan novel wrote:The other nine were called together in the hours before the attack to meet with the Emperor at his citadel. None of them left alive.
Against these points, four arguments are generally raised:
1. Revan believes in the Revan novel that Scourge is a net positive contribution in his battle against Vitiate. But in SWTOR, Scourge says he cannot even join the Hero of Tython against Vitiate because he “cannot resist his direct influence.” This has generally been taken to mean Vitiate must have grown far more powerful. However, there's several problems with this.
a. As I get into again later, the Revan novel and SWTOR depict Revan’s fight against Vitiate a bit differently, owing to them being written simultaneously by different authors. In the Revan novel, its Revan, the Jedi Exile, Scourge, and T3-M4 united against Vitiate, all a net positive. Revan is the leader and most powerful, the Jedi Exile and Scourge are skilled and similarly capable, and T3-M4 is the +1. In SWTOR, the dynamic seems to be that Revan and the Jedi Exile are both very powerful and plan to take on Vitiate together while Scourge gets them through the front door. Scourge admits vast inferiority to them and notes novel Vitiate could have rent him to pieces before he could activate his lightsaber. I don’t get the impression whatsoever that within the context of SWTOR, Scourge would have physically fought beside them.
b. But if you don’t like those appeals, note the fight logistics are also different. In the Revan novel, Revan’s plan is to fight Vitiate alone as the Jedi Exile and Scourge fight off the Imperial Guard long enough for T3-M4 to seal off the throne room doors. Vitiate has little opportunity to mind dominate Scourge without not just Revan’s lightsaber, but also Scourge’s, already in his face. True to plan, Vitiate does not register Scourge until the trio stands united in front of him, ready to attack. Meanwhile, in SWTOR, the Hero must fight through the entire Dark Temple before confronting Vitiate. It is impossible to prevent Vitiate from gathering and charging his powers. As only the Hero can actually resist Vitiate’s mind domination once unleashed, it follows to not bring a liability like Scourge. But in the former case, in which Vitiate has little opportunity to prepare or unleash his mind domination, Scourge can play a bigger role.
c. Relatedly, Revan -- as a ranged-attacker Force sage and master tactician -- is probably just much more able to guard Scourge from Vitiate’s telepathy than the Hero of Tython. Revan is “ready” with multiple strategies to prevent Vitiate from trying to mind control him. These strategies could be lent to defend Scourge, as well. The Hero has no strategy: he’s just simply beyond Vitiate’s influence altogether. And whereas Revan can unleash big Force blasts that halt Vitiate’s telepathy attempts dozens of meters away, the Hero channels the Force almost entirely through his lightsaber. He’s just way less optimized to defend Scourge. I don’t see why Scourge wouldn’t recognize that. And it’s important to remember that in retrospect, Scourge might not even still agree with Revan’s novel strategy anyway!
(Credit to GhostofGrievous for drawing this!)
2. The SWTOR Encyclopedia says Vitiate "amassed" "unfathomable," "incredible," and "unsurmountable" power in his centuries in exile. If you read the full quotes, though, none of these convincingly prove post-Nathema power growth. The first and second could easily be referring to the Nathema ritual and/or to Vitiate's amassing of power in the context of becoming the all-knowing, all-powerful god-king of the Sith people. The third likewise obviously refers to the latter. This must be true as Vitiate already has "unfathomable," "incredible," “almost godlike” powers from the Nathema ritual. But to say Vitiate "amassed" “almost godlike” powers is to logically suggest he did not have them yet. So, again, it's either referencing the Nathema ritual, his heightened political and religious power, or both. Same goes for the cut-content Koval Renge codex entry.
3. Vitiate spent the three centuries between the Revan novel and SWTOR draining Revan and imprisoned Sith spirits at the Dark Temple. However, there is no indication that Force drain can permanently increase a Force user's max power-level. In my A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians blog, I outline an in-depth understanding of Force drain that concludes it cannot do so. The energy absorbed is like a consumable good -- it's not also changing your midi-chlorian count or spirit parameters. Indeed, Vitiate's draining of Revan is never said to permanently increase his power-level. Same goes for virtually all other Force drain displays. Kreia is never said to become far more powerful after draining the Jedi Council. Darth Bane is never said to become more powerful after draining the Sith acolytes. Palpatine is never said to become more powerful after draining billions on Byss -- instead, it is attributed to starving off the effects of his decay. Valkorion also has many independent agents he must imbue power into anyway, like the Children of the Emperor. It follows he would sooner give them this power rather than splice off a lot of his own.
4. Valkorion has much better feats later on that clearly show massive growth, like consuming Ziost and overpowering the KOTET and EOO strike teams. However, as I said, Valkorion isn’t necessarily powerful enough to consume Ziost without preparation, and the KOTET and EOO fights were achieved in a “purely mental” “battle of wills” that explicitly does not translate to a physical fight per Charles Boyd.
It’s true there’s a handful of other quotes that generically say Valkorion became more powerful after every rebirth, or he’s more powerful than ever as Valkorion. I don’t have many issues with these quotes besides stressing that any growth should not be great or change Valkorion’s presentation or performance.
But then, what was Valkorion doing across those 1,300 years between the Nathema ritual and SWTOR? Twiddling his thumbs? Rather, Valkorion spends this time "exploring the most sinister, uncharted depths of the dark side" in "his relentless and selfish pursuit of immortality." Valkorion suddenly got the powers of, effectively, peak Palpatine overnight. Rather than focusing on dumping additional buckets of water to his ocean of power despite indications of hitting a ceiling, it follows he's instead spending that time understanding his power. Studying his power. Mastering his power. Safeguarding his power. Besides, this blog is more so concerned with the premise that Valkorion did not grow much between the 300 years between the Revan novel and SWTOR rather than the full 1,300 years. That's definitely a much stronger case and easier pill to swallow. After all, those final 300 years are spent with Valkorion diversifying and splitting his power across the Voice and Children of the Emperor.
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- DarthAnt66Moderator
Section 4. Revisiting threats to Valkorion: Revan, the Hero of Tython, and Vaylin
February 1st 2024, 5:41 am
Section 4. Revisiting threats to Valkorion: Revan, the Hero of Tython, and Vaylin
- Open to read:
Music recommendation as you read: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ_1HMAGb4kA. Revan
For many years, this fight has been largely overlooked, despite it being Revan’s greatest feat. Per Karphysyn’s endorsement, here, Revan faces "the greatest opponent anyone has ever faced" (including post-SWTOR) -- an opponent with a level of power that you "can't get above" and makes it "hard to imagine that someone gets more powerful than that." Here, Revan faces, effectively, the full power of Valkorion.
And Revan performs really, really well.
Let's explore this fight across four dimensions: the source material, the supplementary material, its recollection in the game, and it put in the context of later game expansions.
1. Primary material: Revan novelRevan novel wrote:There was something unnerving about staring into the faceless mask; it made Revan seem more intimidating, more powerful. Or maybe Scourge just felt that way because he’d watched him destroy Nyriss.
Whatever the reason, he was more confident than ever that he’d made the right choice. If anyone had the strength to stop the Emperor, it was this man.
Scourge knows a lot about Valkorion. He knows he consumed the energy of eight-thousand Sith Lords and an entire planet in the Nathema ritual. He has met Valkorion directly, explicitly felt his power, heard him speak in a chorus of a thousand voices, and experienced the "pure emptiness" of his mind that he thought dwarfed the worst nightmares of the dark side. However, after also feeling the power of Revan reborn and watching him "easily" and "utterly" "destroy" Darth Nyriss, Scourge feels some confidence that Revan could succeed in defeating Valkorion. He declares if anyone could do it, it is Revan, which is effectively to say Revan is the most powerful being he can imagine short of Valkorion.Revan novel wrote:As they drew closer to the throne room, Revan’s thoughts drifted back to his last confrontation with the Emperor. In all his battles, he had never faced an enemy with that kind of power. The dark side had radiated from him in palpable waves, his physical shell barely able to contain the crackling energy.
In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor?
Alone, probably not. With the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and even T3, however, he believed they stood a real chance of victory.
Their timing had to be almost perfect; Revan knew he couldn’t go toe-to-toe with the Emperor by himself for very long. He sensed Meetra tensing beside him, and his own hand drifted to the hilt of his lightsaber beneath his belt in anticipation.
Immediately before the fight, Revan reflects on Valkorion's power-level based on their last encounter. He concludes he can go "toe-for-toe" with Valkorion but "not for very long" and is "probably not" a match. (Interestingly, ChatGPT-4 estimates Revan to be 50-70% of Valkorion's power based on these prediction comments.) With the aid of his party members, Revan believes he has a "real chance" of defeating Valkorion. Even after the fight, Revan maintains it is "impossible to know" who would have won if Scourge had not betrayed him.
Revan charged toward the Emperor.
His opponent stood perfectly still, focusing and channeling his power. At the last possible instant, the Emperor unleashed a wave of energy that swept Revan off his feet and sent him flying backward.
Revan twisted in midair so that he was able to roll with the impact when he landed. He quickly sprang back to his feet and advanced again, moving more slowly this time.
The Emperor stood in the exact same position as before; it was as if he hadn’t even moved. Revan began to sense the oppressive presence of the dark side weighing down on him. The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before. This time, however, Revan was ready.
Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form.
There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward.
He landed in a heap on the floor and Revan raced toward him. The Emperor rolled over, lifted himself up on one knee, and his hands flew forward as he hurtled a bolt of dark side lightning at his enemy.
Revan intercepted the bolt with the blade of his lightsaber, though the impact stopped his charge dead in its tracks.
The Emperor unleashed three more bolts in quick succession. Revan batted the first aside with his lightsaber, ducked the second, then deflected the third back in the direction of its source.
It struck the Emperor in the chest, sending him sliding several meters back on the floor. For the first time the Sith’s emotionless veneer cracked as he let out a primal hiss of hate. The sound sent shivers down Revan’s spine.
The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.
Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.
A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.
Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.
Part 1: Revan opens the fight by charging across the forty meter walkway toward Valkorion. Valkorion spends this time "focusing and channeling his power," allowing him to send Revan flying back with a telekinetic wave. However, Revan isn't injured and lands back on his feet.
Part 2: Valkorion tries to dominate Revan's mind, but Revan draws on the light and dark side simultaneously to unleash the Force in its purest form. Valkorion, "unprepared and with much of his strength diverted," is sent flying backward. Valkorion lands "in a heap on the floor."
Part 3: Revan takes the initiative and charges again. Valkorion rolls over and, bent on one-knee, fires four lightning bolts at Revan. Notably, they are so powerful that a single bolt stops Revan in his tracks, an unprecedented lightning display. Nevertheless, Revan deflects one, bats another side, ducks a third, and bats the fourth back at Valkorion.
Part 4: Valkorion is struck in the chest. Again, the bolt is so powerful that it slides him back at least ten feet. In his Sith Emperor persona, Valkorion always adopts an "emotionless veneer" to distance himself from his past as Tenebrae and as a method to focus his dark side power. Here is the only time Valkorion ever breaks this facade until his final fights in KOTET and EOO.
Part 5: Valkorion lets out "a primal hiss of hate" and his eyes "flash red." He summons "a dozen purple bolts," "infinitely more powerful than" Darth Nyriss' super-charged Force lightning storm that reduced herself to ash or could destroy the Jedi Exile and Scourge. Revan summons his own energy to contain the attack.
Or to put more candidly, Valkorion has lost control, his facade has broken, his eyes are flashing, he's filled with primal hate, and he's invoking what is probably the most powerful Force lightning attack in history, period. And Revan proceeds to get flattened by the storm, yes. But --
Revan still survives. Revan even stays conscious and speaking. And within a minute, Revan fully heals his injuries, ready to fight again at full power.
This is despite Karpyshyn’s works consistently having the most intense depiction of lightning effects:
Ex. 1: Darth Nyriss' super-charged Force lightning storm rips through her barrier and reduces her to literally a pile of ash.
Ex. 2: Darth Nyriss' causal Force lightning instantly turns non-Force users into charred skeletons.
Ex. 3: Darth Bane' causal Force lightning instantly turns non-Force users into charred husks.
That is not to say Revan absorbed literally 99.99% of Valkorion's lightning. But it is clear that Revan absorbed enough of this end-all, be-all lightning attack that his quick-to-heal second-degree burns look truly enviable and incredible compared to Karphysyn's other lightning-recipient's fates.Revan novel wrote:Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.
Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.
---
In desperation, she hurled her lightsaber with a wild sidearm throw, guiding it with the Force so that it spiraled end-over-end to intercept the descending blade, knocking it from the Emperor’s grasp and sending it skittering across the floor.
Suddenly empty-handed, the Emperor took a quick step back. His attention had been focused solely on Revan; Meetra’s trick had caught him by surprise. Scourge realized that if she had aimed at the Emperor instead of the blade, she could have ended his life even as he ended Revan’s. But her instincts to save her friend overrode her desire to kill her enemy, and Scourge could only lament the lost opportunity.
It is important to impress that Valkorion appears to legitimately be in a state of Force rage. In addition to his veneer cracking, hiss of hatred, and red eyes, Valkorion's attention was "focused solely on Revan" to the degree that he doesn't seem to register T3-M4 or the Jedi Exile's attacks until the last possible moment, and then not at all! This goes beyond normal focus. The Dark Empire Sourcebook identifies Force rage as a state where a character "feels the dread influence of the Dark Side" and "amplifies the negative aspects of their own personality leaving the face clenched in a rictus of horror and fear." It "makes characters oblivious to their surroundings," though "they can choose to anticipate the arrival of a foe" with great difficulty and this "will allow them to instantly awaken." That seems to match nicely.Revan novel wrote:Instead of advancing with his two companions, Scourge stepped to the side so that he was standing directly behind Meetra. There was a flicker in his consciousness as the universe snapped back to full speed, and he slid the blade of his lightsaber between her shoulders.
Meetra gasped and toppled forward, dead before she hit the floor. Revan’s head snapped to the side, shock and horror emanating from him even though his mask hid his expression. The distraction gave the Emperor the opportunity he needed, and he unleashed another blast of lightning into the Jedi’s chest.
Scourge could smell burning flesh as Revan screamed once then collapsed to the ground, unconscious.
Either Valkorion's end-all, be-all lightning storm is akin to him blowing his load or entering a power-amplifying rage state that he cannot easily duplicate because, to defeat Revan again, Valkorion "needed" an "opportunity" in which Revan was "distracted" by Scourge’s betrayal. Otherwise, Valkorion couldn't just crumple Revan to the ground, and they probably would have had another back-and-forth like they did at the start.Revan novel wrote:The Force washed over him in a wave, and a million possible futures flickered through his mind simultaneously. In some the Emperor was no more; in others he had transformed the entire galaxy into an empty wasteland. He saw both Revan’s triumph and defeat in the throne room; he saw variations of his own life and death played out over and over in every conceivable way, shape, and form.
He had to choose, but there was no way to know which was the most likely outcome, or what actions of his would lead to which results. Revan had said visions could guide the Jedi, but for Scourge they brought nothing but confusion.
The moment passed and the universe began to move again, though everything seemed to be happening in slow motion. Revan and Meetra stepped forward, ready to initiate the final confrontation. Scourge knew he had to act now; he had to make his choice.
In a sudden moment of clarity he saw the Emperor lying defeated at the feet of a powerful Jedi … but that Jedi was neither Revan nor Meetra. And the Sith Lord knew what he had to do.
Scourge sees "a million possible futures" of the fight but still has "no way to know which was the most likely outcome" -- Revan and his party's victory or Valkorion's victory. Scourge then receives a "moment of clarity" of the Hero of Tython's victory and decides that Revan and his party would lose. However, two points: (1) That's not necessarily true. The idea of a self-fulfilling prophecy is common in Star Wars. Anakin sees visions of Padme dying because of his later actions. In fact, in EOO, Scourge says his actions actually "saved" Valkorion from death. (2) Even if the vision was true and the unfolding reality would have had Vitiate win, that does not preclude that there are still almost an equal number of realities where that would not have happened. So, it seems this triumvirate at least approaches the combat formidability of Valkorion.
Overall, Karpyshyn writes Revan performing excellently against a pre-crazed Valkorion, getting his “ass kicked” but still performing relatively excellently against a crazed Valkorion giga-Force lightning storm, and requiring a post-crazed Valkorion to find an opening to readily defeat him. Both Revan’s analysis and Scourge’s visions suggest a fight between Revan’s triumvirate and Valkorion could have gone either-way. And Valkorion is, in Karphysyn’s mind, at least tied for the most powerful Force user in all of Star Wars.
2. Supplementary material
The SWTOR Encyclopedia, written by the many writers of the class stories, says that Revan "nearly assassinated" Valkorion. Further, Valkorion established the Voice of the Emperor "to guard against further vulnerability" because Revan "approached within striking distance." This is the same source that lavishes Valkorion with his most impressive accolades.
The Essential Reader's Companion by Pablo Hidalgo says that Scourge "recognized that the Emperor is undefeatable." However, again, that's not what the primary material says, unless by "undefeatable" he means that the future reality of Revan's defeat is already determined.
3. In-game recollection: Hero of Tython class story
There is good evidence that the events of the Revan novel were originally put in a summarized manuscript, which Karpyshyn and Hood expanded upon on in their respective stories. Accordingly, slight differences crop up.
Scourge tells the Hero of Tython that he originally gained an audience with Vitiate thanks to his affinity for visions (not true in the novel). He discerned Vitiate's plans of destroying the galaxy but did not act because "I would have been rent to pieces before my hand touched the hilt of of my lightsaber." When Revan and the Jedi Exile arrived, Scourge believed they were his "chance" and "only hope" of defeating Vitiate. He regards them as "the greatest of your Jedi heroes." He says he "would have served them" if they succeeded, and that they both would have been hard-pressed to resist the temptation of Vitiate's throne. However, he saw a vision: "Jedi, shining with the Force, lined up to destroy him. All were swept aside. Revan and the Exile were cast at my feet. Then out of the shadows, one Jedi emerged to cut the Emperor down. That Jedi wore your face." Scourge concludes that Revan and the Jedi Exile "did not have the strength to complete their task."
In the Revan novel, the Jedi Exile is desecrated. She is effortlessly defeated by Darth Nyriss in seconds, and Scourge believes a duel between them would be "a true test of his skills" in which "he didn't know which of them would prove stronger." In SWTOR itself, the Jedi Exile's portrayal is befitting her achievements in KOTOR 2. She's the second greatest Jedi hero ever and could seize the throne of the Sith if Vitiate died, with Scourge as her lowly servant. She's a legitimate threat to Vitiate whereas Scourge admits he would die instantly. So, the group dynamic has changed, and this duo overall seems at least a fair bit more formidable than the novel's quadrivirate. But still not powerful enough to defeat Vitiate!
Revan retells the events in the Maelstrom Prison and Foundry flashpoints. Revan says he led his allies to the galaxy's edge to fight Valkorion and "stood against the Emperor himself." But he "didn't understand his true power" and was "betrayed from within" and "defeated." Revan tells the Act II Hero of Tython: "If I'd had you with me when I faced the Emperor, things might have gone differently." That is, even with his revised understanding of Vitiate's powers after the battle and a three centuries mental war, he thinks just adding the Act II Hero of Tython might be enough. Sure, he's still basically saying we need the three most powerful Jedi ever to take Vitiate down, but that trio is a small fraction of the EOO strike team.
As aforementioned, Scourge also tells Valkorion in EOO that he "saved" him from Revan and the Jedi Exile. It is unclear if that reflects a genuine change in Scourge's position or just Scourge trying to belittle Vitiate, but it's notable regardless.
4. Put in context: SWTOR expansions
a. Charles Boyd on the Revan novel fight
Boyd writes that after Revan "took a crack at" Valkorion, Valkorion locked him away to study. Valkorion does this to everyone he considers a “legitimate threat to him.” He lists three others in this category: the Outlander after Ziost, Vaylin, and Dramath.
Context matters. The Outlander “stands up” against Valkorion by repeatedly thwarting his plans on Yavin IV and Ziost, culminating with defeating his possessed Master Surro avatar. The Outlander’s threat is less about what he can do to full power Valkorion one-on-one, but rather he’s a champion of the Force that can blow apart his schemes. This take follows what Valkorion actually says about the Outlander in KOTFE: "You have earned my respect. You are the only one who has ever matched my will to survive. In all my centuries, you alone have merited my full attention. You leave your mark upon the galaxy wherever you act, just as I do."
Meanwhile, Valkorion locks Revan and Vaylin away before they have even done anything. Valkorion judges Revan as a "legitimate threat" just off their fight alone. And Valkorion judges Vaylin as a threat just based on power displays as a child. It may seem strange he includes Dramath too, but consider: (1) Valkorion may consider Dramath a threat from the context in which he originally imprisoned him, which was when he was 10. (2) Dramath may be a unique threat because he “knows Tenebrae’s weakness.” (3) Perhaps relatedly, Dramath does manage some strange Force attack that blasts Valkorion back and “pierces [Valkorion’s] armor” in the Outlander’s mindscape. It’s unclear what attack that was, but the visuals seem Force bond related, likely due to their blood connection.
That is all to say, Boyd himself seems to vouch for Revan being a threat to Valkorion one-on-one. I don’t think SOR contradicts that.
b. SOR: Character opinions
Although SOR undoubtedly portrays Vitiate as far more powerful than Revan, one step ahead of his every move, the extent of the gap has been overstated. To start, when the Outlander is informed of Revan's plans to resurrect Vitiate in order to destroy him, Darth Marr first interjects that, "No one person -- not even Revan -- can truly destroy the Emperor." For the light side Outlander, two of the three dialogue options maintain support for Revan, believing he could do it: "Why not let Revan try?" / "Pure Sith lies. No one is indestructible." For the dark side Outlander, likewise two options show belief Revan has a shot: "We must protect the Emperor." / "Let him be destroyed." In both cases, the Outlander is only convinced after Marr and Shan's joint insistence that Revan would fail. Marr emphasizes that he speaks not "with pride or misplaced faith" but rather "knows the depths of the Emperor's true power." Keep in mind, though, that Marr's perception of Vitiate's powers may be deliberately inflated per Charles Boyd, living in a Sith Empire that Vitiate manipulated into seeing him as their god-king.
The dark side Outlander later says a lot of nasty things to Revan. Depending on the class, it’s some variation of: “Even at his weakest, you are no match for the Emperor.” / “Have some common sense. The Emperor is the dark side incarnate. You wouldn't stand a chance.” / “Comes down to a fight between the two of you, I'll put every last credit on the Emperor.” / “You're mad to think you'd even stand a chance against his power. You're nothing to him.” Given everything aforementioned, I don’t think this line is meant to be endorsed by the writers. Rather, it’s just one of three dialogue options provided to you (a different variation for each class), and it seems to be the Outlander internalizing the “Vitiate is invincible” narrative that Vitiate tries to push, which he later sheds anyway. The Outlander says many similar lines elsewhere that are obviously not endorsements either.
(The next few were literally said mere weeks after the Outlander’s lines to Revan--)
About Vitiate, as a light or dark side Outlander: “I’m ready for him. It was always going to lead to this. Let him come for me.”
About Vitiate, as the Emperor’s Wrath: “Vitiate knows what I have done in his name. He is right to fear me.”
About Vitiate, as Darth Nox: “He sees in me someone who could one day surpass him. He has every right to be worried.”
(And later lines across KOTFE and KOTET echo similar sentiments--)
To Valkorion, as a dark side Outlander: “My power is beyond your comprehension.”
To Valkorion, as the light side Outlander: “When Arcann's done, you're next.”
To Valkorion, as Darth Nox: "I once led an army of Force ghosts to conquer my enemies. Attempt the same against me, and you will regret it."
To Valkorion, as a dark side Outlander: “Kneel before me, Valkorion.”
About Valkorion, to Revan, as a light or dark side Outlander: “Stay out of my way. I destroyed him before without your help.”
I’m not saying the Outlander is a loon. But rather you have the option to make him a loon.
c. SOR: Vitiate vs Yavin IV
Many believe Vitiate would have overpowered Revan and the coalition strike team combined had he been fully resurrected. But that's not necessarily true. Marr agrees that Vitiate "can be destroyed." He specifically stresses that "no one person" can do it. As to why the coalition strike team doesn’t try to team up with Revan, the Outlander actually extends the offer. Revan refuses because he's paranoid and doesn't believe the offer is genuine. But as to why they don't really try to team up with Revan, consider Revan's line in EOO: "In the fight against you, no one is alone. He divided us. He knows that together, we are stronger than he can ever hope to be. Together--we will end him." Vitiate's machinations and fear tactics divided everyone in SOR. Now, in EOO, everyone is back together. And through that power of friendship, they can defeat him! Recall Charles Boyd says in his interview that Vitiate would need "some groundwork before he could show up and beat everyone." Although that comment is about consuming a planet, I don't see why it wouldn't be even more true for something like Vitiate versus the galactic armies and champions on Yavin IV.
The game states that Vitiate "was not strong enough to usurp all life on Yavin 4 after his reawakening," implying that that he could have been if Revan properly resurrected him to full power. However, I think it's apparent that Vitiate would first have defeated Revan -- then moved onto the rest. I don't think he would defeat everyone all at once. Indeed, that is the chronology of events listed by Darth Marr: "He will destroy Revan, then move on to the rest of us. In time, he will consume all life in the galaxy."
d. SOR Revan’s opinion
It's true that SOR Revan is a "brooding monster," "arrogant," "blind to the truth," "blinded by unchecked rage," a "madman consumed by rage," and “burnt out of all wisdom.” But SOR Revan is also a master strategist who "appears to have outdone himself" with his plans on Rishi, secretly amasses an army of many thousands of Jedi and Sith without anyone noticing and turns them into perhaps "the fiercest adversaries [the Sith have] ever faced," and wages war against the Republic and the Empire combined "on a scale [they've] never seen." The Outlander says SOR Revan is Revan’s “strength” and “focus” incarnate.
Undoubtedly, his belief that he can destroy Vitiate one-on-one is wrong. But there’s levels to being wrong. And it doesn’t quite make sense, with Revan’s intelligence and focus established as being as sharp as ever, that Revan would think he can do this if he is literally an insect to him. No one knows Vitiate’s power-level better than Revan. He fought him twice and had direct access to his mind for three centuries. No one on the coalition’s side has a fraction of Revan’s understanding of Vitiate. And Revan recognizes Vitiate’s threat more than anybody -- he repeatedly says Vitiate is the most destructive and evil being in history.
Rather than Revan being completely crazy, I would like to propose an alternative take: Revan had a good run at Vitiate the last time they fought. He lost, but he got within striking distance and wounded him twice-over. Then, Revan went mind-to-mind against Vitiate for three centuries and resisted Vitiate’s best efforts. Why else would the Force subjugate its greatest champion to the worst tortures imaginable if it did not all culminate in triumph? Revan has truly grown from the ordeal, learning Vitiate’s secrets and crystalizing his power and will. “Who else could have come this far? The Emperor couldn’t break me, even death could not stop me. This is my destiny!” Revan repeatedly says to everyone in SOR. He’s wrong, but looking at it from his perspective, you can see why he might think that. And perhaps the tragedy here is if Revan had accepted the help of the Outlander or tried to get the coalition more on board, perhaps Vitiate really could have been vanquished then and there. That’s the lesson Revan seems to take away from it as he guides the united team in EOO.
e. SOR: Favorable power comparisons
Three other comparisons draw some similarity between Valkorion and Revan’s power-level. First, when SOR’s lead director Michael Backus marketed the expansion to a fan convention, he describes it as the player being “pulled into this struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever.” The line implies Revan is closer in power to Valkorion than the Outlander. For example, it is strange to say, “Robin is pulled into this struggle of two of the most powerful superheroes, like ever, Spider-Man and Superman.” It is even strange to say, “Batman is pulled into this struggle of two of the most powerful superheroes, like ever, Thor and the Living Tribunal.” It’s not just that the second name should be closer to the third than the first, but the second and third name should be close enough that the word “struggle” makes sense.Michael Backus wrote:Revan travels to a very iconic Yavin IV to go to battle and release the actual Emperor, one we thought who was defeated not long ago. The player is pulled into this struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever, in the history of the Old Republic, if not beyond - Revan and the Emperor.
Second, Charles Boyd frames Valkorion and Revan’s world-threatening abilities similarly. For Valkorion, recall that he says: “He could certainly unleash all sorts of crazy chaos, but that utter level of destruction we see on Ziost, I think he needed a little bit of prep work.” For Revan, in response to my fan question of whether Revan planned to destroy Yavin IV by himself after the Machine Core was destroyed, Boyd says: “I had imagined it is roughly what you say - replicate the machine at best he can as a last ditch effort. I don't think he would've destroyed all of Yavin necessarily; but it would've been bad.” And third, we have the mental war.
f. Mental war!
As Boyd says, a mental war is a mental war, not well translated to a physical fight. And it is true that Valkorion took on not just Revan but every champion combined in Satele Shan’s mindscape. But it is also true that Revan legitimately resisted Valkorion’s telepathy for three centuries. Valkorion had two goals: turn Revan into his servant again and rip all of Revan’s secrets. After significant resistance, Vitiate first "tried so hard to split" Revan in two, exploiting a natural vulnerability caused by both his memory wipe and using both sides of the Force, because Revan was at his "strongest" when he was together. Valkorion even enlisted the help of the Dread Masters -- Sith of “incalculable,” “unprecedented power,” considered Valkorion’s “mightiest weapons” and “favorite servants.” Although Valkorion eventually got almost all of Revan’s secrets, Valkorion never managed to recover the location of the Foundry, or turn him into his servant, or even fully split Revan in two (this was not completed until after the Foundry)!
In turn, Revan subtly influenced Valkorion for three centuries, augmenting his fear of death and inspiring him to take up a family on Zakuul. Revan also gleaned “centuries of knowledge.” Most notably, Revan “manipulated” and “convinced” Valkorion to abruptly sign the Treaty of Coruscant, saving the galaxy. This mental influence must have been done relatively quickly after the Sacking of Coruscant, perhaps within mere days, and so would have been met with more active resistance from Valkorion. The Jedi Exile says Revan "holds the darkness at bay, lost inside it for three-hundred years," and Revan claims he "spent three-hundred years in lock step with the Emperor's mind." Strong words.Charles Boyd wrote:When he's torturing Revan for centuries, there's some influence from Revan back on him. Slowing his plans, perhaps. One of the last things we see from Revan in that story is thinking of Bastila back home. That may have also influenced Vitiate's transition to Valkorion, to wonder what it would be like, and that might be the [unclear] he sought out as a result of that.
“As the Emperor fed off him, Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her.” The Jedi Exile supplied a “small stream” of energy that “trickled” to Revan, which “refreshed” and “restored” Revan “whenever he grew weak” from Valkorion’s Force drain. On the one hand, Revan says, “She gave me strength to resist all this time.” On the other, Revan never even realized the Jedi Exile was present across those three centuries, so how much aid could she realistically have given? Moreover, Valkorion also brought in the Dread Masters to help him, so Revan having his own support seems fair. The actual feat of shielding his mind and “holding [Valkorion] at bay” is attributed to Revan solely. To be able to do it for that long, though, is probably thanks to the Jedi Exile. Even if we imagine some joint meld where the two took on Valkorion and the Dread Masters for three centuries united, drawing strength from one-another, it would still be an all-time feat and absolutely perplexing if Revan was nothing to Valkorion.B. Hero of Tython
In replace of the Outlander, I nominate a new champion worthy to be Revan's successor: the Hero of Tython.
As early as the Prologue, Benegel Morr says the Hero of Tython is "stronger than any Jedi I have known," and Satele Shan calls him "our very best." In Act I, Satele Shan hails the Hero as a "Jedi without equal" and "our greatest weapon against the darkness." Tol Braga says the Hero is "the Order's greatest soldier." By Act II, the Hero is nominated for a strike team of "the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy" and "the strongest and most resolute Jedi of the Order." He defeats Scourge, who frightens even the Dark Councillors and claims to be Valkorion's "most powerful servant."
Scourge tells the Hero of Tython, "Had you been instructed in the true way of the Force, the galaxy could not match your power," suggesting he believes the Hero has enough Force potential to surpass Valkorion. In fact, Scourge says that if he could train the Hero's child in the dark side, the child "would have power such as the galaxy has never seen." In other words, the Hero is a true Anakin or Luke Skywalker stand-in, with the most Force potential in history, far eclipsing even their respective Emperors.
Upon meeting Scourge, the Hero of Tython flaunts, "Kira and I have the power to destroy your master." In return, Scourge responds, "Not yet. Not without my help." Scourge later introduces the Hero to the Jedi Council by saying, "This Jedi has the power to stop him." By the end of Act III, after receiving news that Vitiate has been weakened by his failed galaxy ritual, both Scourge and the Jedi Council believe the Hero is ready. Scourge pronounces, "I do not know how more to prepare you to face the Emperor." The Jedi stage a mass attack on Dromund Kaas just to divert attention from the Hero sneaking in and fighting Vitiate.
Many write this fight off as Vitiate just being very weakened. Even Charles Boyd does*. However, the mission log states Vitiate is only “temporarily weakened.” When Kira Carsen says she will save any party members left behind as they try to clear the way for the Hero’s advance, Scourge stresses that such is “foolish” because Vitiate will “recover quickly” and that they “cannot grant him time to gather his power.” Meanwhile, Vitiate waits in his “ritual chamber” at the heart of the Dark Temple, “a place of vast dark side power” and “overwhelming violent energy” that was "specifically designed to focus and contain corrupt darkness.” The Hero then choses to delay his advance by first fighting through the Imperial Guard barracks to save his allies. Scourge confirms that the Hero’s delayal “gave the Emperor time to gather his strength.” Although that doesn’t necessarily mean all his power, there’s enough compelling evidence to accept that Vitiate restored at least much of his full power.
(*The reason why I don’t think this matters much is because Boyd didn’t work on the Hero of Tython’s class story. It’s not “author intent.” It’s an author interpreting a work by completely different authors.)
Relatedly, when the Hero of Tython confronts a dark side Tol Braga, Braga explains Vitiate is "Strong. Perfect. Transcending both Jedi and Sith." After being defeated, Braga tells the Hero that Vitiate is on Dromund Kaas but that "even in his weakened state [due to the failed galaxy ritual], you are no match for him" and that the Hero "will see how pointless our struggles have been." This doesn't make sense to say if Vitiate dramatically fell in power. Vitiate should still be powerful enough for Braga to think he's conventionally unbeatable. And that's even before recovering his power. After seeing the Hero's conviction, Braga admits "maybe you can defeat him" and that he will return to Tython and "hope."
[Hero of Tython vs Vitiate - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pwPRbwaT2A]
When Revan confronts Vitiate, Vitiate attempts to dominate his mind -- but fails as Revan unleashes his Force in Balance attack. When the Hero confronts Vitiate, Vitiate simply judges him too powerful to be mind dominated and moves to conventional combat. Vitiate unleashes a Force lightning stream, which the Hero deflects. Vitiate then casts three phantoms of himself, which the Hero swiftly strikes down. After some exposition, Vitiate declares he will kill the Hero and fights anew. The SWTOR Encyclopedia describes the fight as a "final apocalyptic duel" in which the Hero "battles the Sith Emperor for the fate of the galaxy" and "the Sith Emperor unleashes his terrifying power on the lone Jedi Knight."
In gameplay, Vitiate creates some nine phantoms of himself, all of which simultaneously attack the Hero. The key to the Hero's victory is discerning, battling, and defeating the true Vitiate. As Vitiate falls to his knees in cutscene, he admits the Hero has "immense power" but "lacks the purity of will to direct it." Vitiate unleashes a final Force lightning stream, which the Hero deflects, before being struck down again. The mission log states, "The Emperor lies beaten at your feet. For all his power, he was no match for you." Consistently, Scourge says his vision of the Hero’s victory ended with him holding Vitiate’s power in his hands.
And as I said before, Hall Hood emphasizes that it is a "lie" that the Hero of Tython merely defeated the Voice of the Emperor. Rather, Vitiate himself was legitimately "all but destroyed" in this fight. Many Children of the Emperor report hearing Vitiate's screams and curses as he was destroyed. His experience of coming "back from the brink" radically changed his plans and perspectives altogether. The fight really, really packed a punch.C. Vaylin
Vaylin is introduced by Charles Boyd as "probably the most powerful figure that we've introduced short of Valkorion" and "in raw power, probably second only to Valkorion.” Like the Hero of Tython (not to be mistaken for the Outlander), her Force potential is off the charts. She can move chairs while in the womb and can destroy four Jedi Master-level Zakuul Knights without any Force training before her pre-teens. The game codex says that Valkorion "feared she would one day challenge him" and so instituted extensive mental conditioning. Valkorion admits he did this because "Vaylin was a threat to everything I had created." Valkorion also calls Vaylin "my most perfect creation--and the most dangerous," and Lana Beniko says, "Her strength in the Force is astounding, even for her family." You can read Azronger’s recent blog on her for more information on her powers (link), and others can debate the specifics of her combat skills, but I will leave this by saying she’s at least closer in raw power to Valkorion than even Revan.
- DarthAnt66Moderator
Section 5. Some preemptive counters
February 1st 2024, 5:45 am
Section 5. Some preemptive counters
- Open to read:
A. The Hero of Tython vs Yoda
Yoda is the “most powerful Jedi ever,” “the most implacable, devastatingly powerful foe the darkness has ever known.” So, where does that leave the Hero of Tython?
As we wade into new waters, I see two possible paths.
One, we accept at face value that the Hero of Tython, as an unabashed high-tier Skywalker-level prodigy, rapidly yet earnestly grew into the powers of a fully realized Luke Skywalker. As Hall Hood said, the Hero’s story line is meant to match his film counterparts “plus a million.” Luke is prophesied to have the Force potential to conquer Palpatine in single-combat, but ultimately he wins through redeeming his father with love. The Hero is a reimagining of that story if Luke had actually further trained in the golden age of the Jedi and bested Palpatine in some “apocalyptical final duel.” In this way, I don’t think it violates Yoda’s supremacy to make a special exception for Luke Skywalker literally copy-and-pasted in a previous era.
Two, perhaps the Hero stands in the realm of Yoda or novel Revan -- the most powerful Jedi ever but still distinctively unable to conquer OT Palpatine or Vitiate. However, unlike those Jedi, the Hero has the Force potential to one day conquer the darkness. Scourge has seen through prophecy that he will succeed, that a fight between the Hero and Vitiate will end with the Hero wielding Vitiate’s power as his own. And so, as Vitiate’s millennium-long plan crumbles and he seems vulnerable, Scourge believes the time is now. As the Hero advances against Vitiate, his full potential is realized -- whether it be in a Skywalker-esque “flash of brilliance” or permanently. Vitiate claims that the Hero “wields immense power but lacks the purity of will to direct it.” But it’s clear that the Hero has both here -- he, at last, directs his immense power with a purity of will.
2. Valkorion vs ROTS Palpatine
ROTS Palpatine is repeatedly decorated as “the most powerful Sith ever.” But now I am saying Sith Emperor Vitiate is comparably powerful with Valkorion. What does that imply?
Lucasfilm Licensing officials Leland Chee and Pablo Hidalgo have repeatedly affirmed that power-level statements are not canonically binding. Licensing officials Bill Slavicsek, Steve Sansweet, and Leland Chee have further emphasized that power-level statements should especially only be considered to apply to the knowledge known as of publication. Since Vitiate’s creation, Palpatine has only had two additional Sith supremacy quotes, both from the publisher DK Readers. Meanwhile, Vitiate has had at least three power-level statements above Force users who are explicitly more powerful than ROTS Palpatine, like the Ones or Abeloth, and implicitly, like the star-consuming World Razer. I am not saying Valkorion scales to these beings. But I am saying that Valkorion is by no means helpless in a quote war and would even win.
To this position, I generally see one of two counters.
The first typically goes: “It’s not just about dating policy. The sheer amount of authors and times that ROTS Palpatine has been endorsed as the most powerful Sith ever makes it a deeper kind of fact.” I likewise have two responses. (1) This is true, but only to an extent. We also have quotes saying Marka Ragnos and Exar Kun are the most powerful Sith ever. We have sourcebook statistics, stated to be as valid as quotes by Licensing, listing Exar Kun, Darth Revan, Darth Malak, and Darth Bane as more powerful. And we have Vitiate’s many quotes saying he is far more powerful than any of them. That is to say, ROTS Palpatine’s supremacy is genuinely not as established a position as you may think. (2) But more importantly, it is also a deeper kind of fact -- a fact that speaks to the platonic essence of who Vitiate is and is almost undoubtedly etched into some manuscript back at Skywalker Ranch -- that Vitiate is through-and-through a true counterpart to Palpatine’s most powerful iterations. That’s how his authors conceived him. That’s how he’s written. I am more than confident that if you stack Vitiate’s accolades, feats, aesthetics, scaling, and author intent against ROTS Palpatine’s, Vitiate’s holistic portfolio would emerge stronger.
The second often is: “Had Legends not ended, surely ROTS Palpatine would have continued to receive additional Sith supremacy quotes.” And I don’t doubt it! But I would also expect Vitiate to continue receiving his own supremacy quotes and stated power parallels with OT or DE Palpatine. And I would likewise expect stray sources continuing to periodically nominate some third-party Sith as the most powerful. My concern is -- why does it matter? Why does it matter considering power-level statements are not a binding or even leading metric to determine a character’s power-level? And why does it matter what would have happened in a future that never came to be? Shouldn’t we factor in canceled projects, as well? KOTOR 3 where Revan shows why he is considered “the heart of the Force”? TFU 3 where Vader houses Starkiller and the duo team up to fight Palpatine? EAW 2 where Revan returns in the New Republic era and leads his Sith Empire against the galaxy? Cut-content from KOTET where Vaylin telekinetically throws around the entire Eternal Fleet?
3. Then, who is the Outlander?
The Outlander, officially, is not tied to any one class story. He is any class, every class, and no class. But if a class had to be chosen, obviously the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the Hero of Tython. However, as I said before, to be consistent with the canonical powers shown and attributed to the Hero and the Outlander, we must assume the Hero weakened. The specifics of the weakening is the domain of head-canon -- but the fact it happened is a necessity. The weakening should occur in the immediate aftermath of Act III, reflecting a change of vision for the Hero. When Hall Hood and Drew Karpyshyn handled the Hero's class story, he was the end-all, be-all champion of champions. When that story ended, he was passed to other authors who saw him as one of eight, all interchangeable and equal.
There's already some fun ideas on how the Hero could have weakened. My idea is his final fight with Vitiate was so apocalyptic that the Hero was gravely wounded and crippled. Not necessarily even a physical injury, but a spiritual wound, like the kind Luke Skywalker suffered against Abeloth. After all, Scourge says that when Vitiate speaks of life and death, it has a "far deeper meaning than the mere physical existence." It's possible his attacks could cut deep at the Hero's essence. Another idea is that the Hero's mental trauma of being corrupted to the dark side by Vitiate, freeing himself from that, and fighting him in a slugfest of raw power significantly affected his psyche thereafter. Same as how Luke's trauma by being corrupted to the dark side by Palpatine, freeing himself from that, and fighting him in a slugfest of raw power imposed a deep subconscious fear in Luke that curbed his abilities for the next twenty years. As we know from the Book of Sith, the power the mind has over the body is real. If it is possible for a lovers quarrel to induce a mass die-off of midi-chlorians (Padme Amidala!), it is also possible that repeatedly facing down "the pure emptiness of total annihilation" could have similar effects. A third idea is that the Force rallied around the Hero from birth so that he could triumph in this fight, and so then began to move away from him after it was fulfilled. Overly mystical, perhaps, but the Force works in mysterious ways.
4. Final thoughts on the mindscape fights
As promised, two final key observations:
One, Valkorion seems to show ‘deeper reserves of power’ in both his KOTET and EOO final fights. In KOTET, Valkorion struggles with the Holocron-empowered Outlander, Vaylin, and Arcann trio before declaring “Enough!” and instantly dominating everyone with glowing purple eyes. In EOO, Valkorion again claims that no one knows “the true depths of my power.” And after being driven back by the strike team, he manages to summon a massive attack that overpowers everyone with glowing red eyes. Historically, xSupremeSkillz and I have proposed “Balloon Theory” to help explain this -- that Valkorion has many thousands of spirits tethered to him, and he can convert them into additional energy like a consumable good when desired. Of course, the theory is largely made obsolete by instead arguing Valkorion wields around the same power in all his portrayals and his heightened mindscape fights just aren't translatable to reality. But nevertheless, there may be some truth to it -- or at least the general idea of ‘deeper reserves of power ‘ -- to explain his massive power spikes even in a “battle of wills.”
Two, a key idea in Star Wars from George Lucas himself is that dark siders cling to physical reality as much as possible because that’s all they have. This is taken to the utmost extreme with the boundless selfishness and self-obsession held by Valkorion and Palpatine. It is said time and time again that they will do absolutely anything to hold onto their power and existence. And that’s what is going on with their biggest feats. In DE, Palpatine has lightsaber duels with Luke Skywalker and summons mighty Force storms still dwarfed by moons. But Luke and Leia must enter absolute Oneness, united with the spirits of all past Jedi, to extinguish Palpatine’s soul. Likewise, in SWTOR, Valkorion is legitimately challenged by Revan, the Hero of Tython, of Vaylin one-on-one and has powers clocking out at planet-razing. But a strike team of every Old Republic champion, joined with potentially trillions of beings who Valkorion “murdered,” “manipulated,” “betrayed,” rally to obliterate Valkorion’s spirit once-and-for-all. What’s with that sub-planetary-level offensive power but galactic-level defensive power? It’s because they invoke every iota of their willpower -- measured by the extent they refuse to die, powered by their wrath and despair -- to resist their erasure. The depth their consciousness is rooted to the physical realm runs far deeper than anyone can imagine.
- DarthAnt66Moderator
Section 6. Conclusion
February 1st 2024, 6:15 am
Section 6. Conclusion
• The Hero of Tython and the Outlander should be separated for scaling purposes because they are not officially the same character, not intended to have the same power-level, and demonstrably do not have the same power-level.
• Between Valkorion's frequent and critical aid and the circumstances of his victories, the Outlander definitely does not scale above Vaylin, and perhaps not even Arcann.
• Valkorion is a top tier Force user and rival to OT or DE Palpatine, but he cannot easily consume planets without preparation, and his mindscape fights do not translate to physical fights.
• All of Valkorion's iterations, from the Revan novel to EOO, have roughly the same power-level. There is little growth or power preservation.
• Revan is genuinely a threat to Valkorion and wields a considerable portion of his power, as shown in the Revan novel and repeatedly reaffirmed later. He's not Valkorion's level, but he can get in good licks before going down.
• When the Hero of Tython fights Valkorion on Dromund Kaas, it is a clash between a true Grand Master Luke Skywalker-level champion of the Force and Valkorion with a vast portion of his power.
AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four
Re: SWTOR Scaling - A New Perspective (2024)
February 3rd 2024, 1:58 am
I feel like this all reflects the actual conceptions the writers had, over what we've all argued across the past decade. Nice to see a good faith approach, should make the era much more digestible for others.
- DarthAnt66Moderator
Re: SWTOR Scaling - A New Perspective (2024)
May 19th 2024, 8:20 pm
Last month, Discord did an update that destroyed all the linked images. I've just added all the scans again.
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