Darth Caedus vs Starkiller

The Apprentice wrote:

EmperorCaedus wrote:Caedus ragdolls.

Why?

1. Matching Luke-amped-Jaina.

2. Scaling above Kyp's environmental feats including the Dovin Basal singularity, which far outshines anything Starkiller has demonstrated.

@EmperorCaedus

1. Matching Luke-amped-Jaina.

He didn't match her, and you haven't established why this is impressive.

2. Scaling above Kyp's environmental feats including the Dovin Basal singularity, which far outshines anything Starkiller has demonstrated.

Why does Kyp's feat "far outshine" anything Starkiller has demonstrated?

He didn't match her, and you haven't established why this is impressive.

Agree with this. No idea where this misconception is coming from.

Likewise Jacen doesn’t scale from the Dovin Basal feat due to Kyp’s massive inconsistency.

Greysentinel365 wrote:Likewise Jacen doesn’t scale from the Dovin Basal feat due to Kyp’s massive inconsistency.

Well, i don’t think it’s really inconsistency as much as it is willingness to use his power. His actualized power doesn’t change but much like other prodigies in SW his usage of his power depends on the situation and how he is feeling, which is basically what he says in Exile. I agree with your overall point though, the best Jacen can be scaled from is Kyp’s feat in Exile, where he picks up the  jade shadow with TK. 

Kyp's power doesn't change, only his willingness to use it. Given that Jacen explicitly notes his power is superior to Kyp's, not his overall capability Jacen should scale from him regardless. As far as the Jaina fight is concerned he does match her, at least in sabers. Despite only having one arm to use his weapon he matches her strength, stops her from closing in to knock his guard aside due to speed and lands an equal number of physical strikes. She only gains the upperhand through abusing the force, which is something Caedus manages to do in a similar fashion later in the duel, and would have won had it not been for Jaina having an additional weapon (Which allowed her to take his arm). The implication seems to be the 2 were equal, and as a result, the feat stands.

The Apprentice wrote:Why does Kyp's feat "far outshine" anything Starkiller has demonstrated?

I haven't seen anything from SK that is on the level of a moon to black-hole level feat (depending on how you perceive the text).

And that is pretty much all that is going for Starkiller, his lightsaber skills leave more to be desired, even if you don't think Starkiller and Vader are equals.

@EmperorCaedus

I haven't seen anything from SK that is on the level of a moon to black-hole level feat (depending on how you perceive the text).

The Dovin Basal isn't a black hole, and why're you latching onto "moon level"? What remotely indicates Kyp's feat is a "moon level" display?

Kyp is comic Thor level confirmed, @The Apprentice.

The Apprentice wrote:@EmperorCaedus

I haven't seen anything from SK that is on the level of a moon to black-hole level feat (depending on how you perceive the text).

The Dovin Basal isn't a black hole, and why're you latching onto "moon level". What remotely indicates Kyp's feat is a "moon level" display?

Let me try and simplify this in a way that @breakofdawn wants me to make posts.

So you take these guys who manipulate an energy. Let's call it "grabidy"
These guys use this grabidy to make big ships go really fast in outer space. Think of ships in the bathtub, but imagine the bathtub is bigger and the ships can float IN THE WATER...??? Cool right? So yes these grabidy guys can make ships go really fast. Big ships too. Ships that are the size of a Star Destroyer but imagine if you cut the tip off lol.

So these grabidy guys can make these tipless Star Destroyers travel the speed of your dad's flashlight beam. If you need to know how fast that is, go play with your dad's keys - and try to avoid getting distracted by the jingles - and go turn on his flashlight a bunch of times. You will never see the light travel because it travels 2 fast 4 ur eyes to follow. You could also try this with a lightswitch - assuming you don't get distracted by flicking it on and off for hours - and see if you can see the room lighting up over time instead of instantly.

Pretty fast right?

So these guys are moving these ships that weigh more than your dad can lift really fast.

In comes Kyp and is wrestling with these guys who control grabidy. He overpowers them. Good feat right? But wait there's more!

So these grabidy creeps can also make a big dense hole in space. It's really heavy. Remember the time your brother was sitting on the trampoline and it caused a dent in the trampoline? That's a black hole; your brother on a trampoline.

So Kyp wrestles with your brother in a ball on the trampoline and he throws it at a smaller Star Destroyer. It instantly swallows the Star Destroyer. What would you say is heavier per this example?

Or rather, your brother is bouncing on the trampoline and your infant sibling - gender undetermined - gets on the trampoline while your mom is sipping on mommy juice peering off away into the horizon at what could have been. So what is going to happen?

a) Your brother bounces your genderless sibling to the moon
b) Your genderless sibling bounces your brother to the moon
c) They just cancel out and nothing important happens

If you answered a) then you would be correct. And while the black hole didn't bounce your genderless baby to the moon, it did completely swallow it. I guess you could try this with your brother sitting on the tramp while you put a ball on it, but the baby works too.

Basically the little grabidy hole that distorts space and grabidy - that in no way could be confused with a black hole - instantly ate the Star Destroyer. For a visual aid, imagine your mom's vacuum sucking up your house. That's a strong vacuum right?

So the chain of events is as follows:

Kyp wrestled with grabidy guys who move ships as fast as your dad's flashlight. They wrestled over your brother on a trampoline. Kyp threw your brother at your gender-to-be-determined sibling who entered the trampoline area. Your brother swallowed your gender-to-be-determined sibling within an eye blink. Was your brother heavier than your genderless sibling?

Alternately, imagine someone balling up a Star Destroyer to the size of a marble. It weighed the exact same. If you threw the Star Destroyer ball at a full sized Star Destroyer, would it instantly suck up the full sized Star Destroyer into the ball? What would even happen? No one knows except big kids but they don't talk to us little folk.

Does that help any?

@Quorian Debatist You realise "simplify" and "condense" don't mean the same thing, right?

You realize ROTJ Luke = Vader in power right?

Quorian Debatist wrote:You realize ROTJ Luke = Vader in power right?

Not particularly relevant to what I said but ok. Glad you got that crucial information out of your system.

Well I don't know what you want BoD. You don't like proof, you don't like complexity, you don't like long posts, and you don't like people questioning you.

Seems you just want people to either concede, not answer, or just respond with like a quarter of a sentence to you that may or may not end/make sense.

I will have to try again I guess. I think I'm on the right path though.

You don't like proof, 

Sorry, I had a traumatic experience with facts when I was younger. Now anything to do with the truth absolutely terrifies me. 

you don't like complexity,

Please look up what "condense" means in a writing context.
 

you don't like long posts, 

Might as well just quote my response to EC:


QD is a good debater and deserves more thought and respect than a hastily written response...A wall of text takes longer, and I'm not able to commit rn.

and you don't like people questioning you.

Shit, that's me exposed. Alright, I admit it: I'm an aggressive egomanic who thinks they're the greatest debater on the forum and who destroys everything in sight when one of you inferior debaters dares to question me. It's part of my nature.

BreakofDawn wrote:

You don't like proof, 

Sorry, I had a traumatic experience with facts when I was younger. Now anything to do with the truth absolutely terrifies me. 

you don't like complexity,

Please look up what "condense" means in a writing context.
 

you don't like long posts, 

Might as well just quote my response to EC:


QD is a good debater and deserves more thought and respect than a hastily written response...A wall of text takes longer, and I'm not able to commit rn.

and you don't like people questioning you.

Shit, that's me exposed. Alright, I admit it: I'm an aggressive egomanic who thinks they're the greatest debater on the forum and who destroys everything in sight when one of you inferior debaters dares to question me. It's part of my nature.

quite possibly i just discover this site is cancer tbh

@The lord of hunger 

It's not just the response of a post. It's that you will look at a post, be like "Well that's a post" and then within a day will act like the post didn't even happen and then make sure to slip into every Vader thread that he was in fact above Luke in power for example.
Basically saying that everything in that post doesn't count.

Imagine if you will that you just throttled DC. You felt like you just made him submit and let's say he did. But then the next day he was back to saying "Well Caedus was exactly equal to Luke in their fight so who knows?"
Ignoring everything you just said in a debate you thought you covered all the aspects of. Imagine if you did feel you prooooved that Vader was definitely above Luke and say Ant conceded, and then you have someone like IG going around every thread saying that Luke was above Vader and just refuses to acknowledge all the proof you laid out.

It's not just about failing to respond. It's about ignoring it like it didn't happen. You can not respond till Decaf's cat comes home for all I care, but the handwaving away is mighty bisexual; teetering on the edge into full-gay.

It's not just the response of a post. It's that you will look at a post, be like "Well that's a post" and then within a day will act like the post didn't even happen and then make sure to slip into every Vader thread that he was in fact above Luke in power for example.
Basically saying that everything in that post doesn't count.

Imagine if you will that you just throttled DC. You felt like you just made him submit and let's say he did. But then the next day he was back to saying "Well Caedus was exactly equal to Luke in their fight so who knows?"
Ignoring everything you just said in a debate you thought you covered all the aspects of. Imagine if you did feel you prooooved that Vader was definitely above Luke and say Ant conceded, and then you have someone like IG going around every thread saying that Luke was above Vader and just refuses to acknowledge all the proof you laid out.

It's not just about failing to respond. It's about ignoring it like it didn't happen. You can not respond till Decaf's cat comes home for all I care, but the handwaving away is mighty bisexual; bridging the gap into full-gay.

This is all great to read, but it's kind of awkward when I have the knowledge of a document I made a while ago to keep track of all the posts that I've missed or failed to reply to. 2 of yours are on there, 2 of KoB's, and a few others here and there, including one from HP and another from someone else I can't remember. 

I also can't imagine that situation because I've never "throttled" someone of DC's caliber as a debater (not least because he's usually right whenever I disagree with him), or even come remotely close to it.

Oh, and one more thing? Witty comments don't really work when the object of the joke is used in the wrong context. Just as I have a list for the posts I haven't replied to, add "bisexual" and "gay" to the growing list of words that you keep using in the wrong context or barring that, completely misunderstand.

BreakofDawn wrote:@The lord of hunger 

bruh .________.

Quorian Debatist wrote:It's not just the response of a post. It's that you will look at a post, be like "Well that's a post" and then within a day will act like the post didn't even happen and then make sure to slip into every Vader thread that he was in fact above Luke in power for example.
Basically saying that everything in that post doesn't count.

Imagine if you will that you just throttled DC. You felt like you just made him submit and let's say he did. But then the next day he was back to saying "Well Caedus was exactly equal to Luke in their fight so who knows?"
Ignoring everything you just said in a debate you thought you covered all the aspects of. Imagine if you did feel you prooooved that Vader was definitely above Luke and say Ant conceded, and then you have someone like IG going around every thread saying that Luke was above Vader and just refuses to acknowledge all the proof you laid out.

It's not just about failing to respond. It's about ignoring it like it didn't happen. You can not respond till Decaf's cat comes home for all I care, but the handwaving away is mighty bisexual; teetering on the edge into full-gay.

ok....

@The Count Of Conundrums:

1. Jacen hasn't shown anything close to his insane environmental feats (e.g. re-directing the ISD, atomising The Salvation, etc).

Kyp is far less powerful than Jacen, and he shifted a Dovin Basal. That's better than anything Starkiller has to his name.

2. Jacen hasn't come close to stomping a combatant as badly as Galen did against Vader, in fact, throughout LOTF Jacen has consistently been taxed by opponents that are beneath Vader's level (e.g. Katarn, Mara and Sing - and while the latter two were obviously while he was vastly pre-prime, struggling with Sing, for example, isn't a good baseline, especially since a lot of the shit you try to hype up for Jacen e.g. scaling beyond Durron, happened in the time period where Sing gave him a fight).

In the latter 2 there were several circumstances surrounding the fight, and Jacen was a blitz tier beneath his prime self. As for Kyle, he never pressed Jacen, and again, Jacen was massively pre prime, not to mention injured on top of that.

3. Jacen doesn't really have any feats against incredibly high tier combatants, whereas Galen managed to largely mitigate Wankatine's Lightning, and lasted against him for around 30 seconds before entering Oneness, even pushing Sidious into "desperation".

Sheev likely wasn't using his full potency, which is supported by the DS ending wherein he one shots Galen. Jacen's performance against Luke amped Jaina impresses me more than this non feat.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@The Apprentice:

1. Jacen hasn't shown anything close to his insane environmental feats (e.g. re-directing the ISD, atomising The Salvation, etc).

Kyp is far less powerful than Jacen, and he shifted a Dovin Basal. Next.

2. Jacen hasn't come close to stomping a combatant as badly as Galen did against Vader, in fact, throughout LOTF Jacen has consistently been taxed by opponents that are beneath Vader's level (e.g. Katarn, Mara and Sing - and while the latter two were obviously while he was vastly pre-prime, struggling with Sing, for example, isn't a good baseline, especially since a lot of the shit you try to hype up for Jacen e.g. scaling beyond Durron, happened in the time period where Sing gave him a fight).

In the latter 2 there were several circumstances surrounding the fight, and Jacen was a blitz tier beneath his prime self. As for Kyle, he never pressed Jacen, and again, Jacen was massively pre prime, not to mention injured on top of that.

3. Jacen doesn't really have any feats against incredibly high tier combatants, whereas Galen managed to largely mitigate Wankatine's Lightning, and lasted against him for around 30 seconds before entering Oneness, even pushing Sidious into "desperation".

Sheev likely wasn't using his full potency, which is supported by the DS ending wherein he one shots Galen. Jacen's performance against Luke anped Jaina impresses me more than this non feat.

also the fact that the lotf novels are quite inconsistent between each other

They aren't.