Ben Skywalker(Stanley) VS Darth Baras(Fated Xtasy)

Hello, there friends. Today Stanley and I have decided to face off in a debate featuring Darth Baras and Ben Skywalker. The Sith Usurper vs Jedi Upstart.

The rules are as follows:

Each user will have 3 posts + a conclusion.
The time allowed between posts is one month.
No Character Limit.

As with most Sith Lords of the time, Darth Baras is without a doubt tremendously skilled and strong with the dark side. In the decades that spanned the culmination of the Treaty of Coruscant, the Cold War, and the Galactic War, Baras was at the epicenter of it all, manipulating events across the galaxy. All the while the Sith, the Jedi, and the Republic remain unaware of the extent of Baras' machinations.
Throughout the Galactic War, Baras proved himself a capable warrior, taking on the likes of Nomen Karr, a skillful Jedi Master

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry(Nomen Karr) wrote:The Jedi Nomen Karr is one of the order’s most veteran Masters and the personal nemesis of Darth Baras. Although valued for his experience, he is known to challenge the order’s rigid precepts in his crusade against evil in the galaxy; the determined Nomen Karr even dared to touch the dark side during his time behind the Imperial border but emerged a valiant champion of the light.

Despite Karr's ability, once he was discovered to be an Imposter he was wounded and sent into hiding by Baras.

Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia wrote:Baras exposed Nomen Karr, attacked the Jedi, and drove the wounded spy from the Empire

Early in his career, Baras performed admirably when he took on the duo of Master Wyellet and then Padawan Xerender though the battle left him drained and weaponless it should be noted that Master Wyellet seems to surpass fellow Jedi Nomen Karr and Orgus Din in terms of renown as well as general ability

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry(Master Wyellet) wrote:Jedi Master Wyellett was one of the great Jedi heroes of the last war. Deeply concerned with the preservation of life and more interested in communing with the Force than in using his power as a weapon, he nonetheless proved himself in combat time and again. When his apprentice Xerender battled Darth Baras, Wyellett joined Xerender and sought to redeem the Sith; failing, Wyellett seized Baras’s lightsaber and chose to use it as his own.

Later, nearing the end of the War and beginning of the treaty Baras briefly clashed with Jedi Knight Satele Shan and the battle ended in a draw.

Baras Vs Satele:

Baras later fends off and subdues Darth Angral, a Sith who led the sacking of Coruscant and defeated Orgus Din rather solidly.

Baras Vs Angral: Round One:

Later the two sith duel to a standstill until Baras decides to stop the fight.

Baras Vs Angral: Round Two:

Baras is then seen fending off Satele and her Master Dar’Nala later during the Cold War during the battle we see Baras primarily on the defensive however in the midst of it all he was able to briefly subdue Satele Shan. Moreover, the comments made by Baras during the battle imply that the Sith Lord was goading them into killing either Angral or himself so that the Jedi would violate the treaty. To put it simply Baras was toying with them and held his own.

Baras vs Dar'Nala and Satele:

Ben has fought Tahiri Veila, a group of Sith(?) alongside his father, and while that is impressive it’s important to note that Luke often found his son’s lightsaber skills lacking by contrast Baras has performed admirably against foes mentioned above all this quite early in his career.

Force Prowess: Ancient Comparisons, Contemporaries, and Cunning.

Regarding Baras’ Force prowess. The Sith Lord is counted among the most notable of inquisitors, a list that includes the likes of Darth Jadus, a contemporary, and Naga Sadow in many ways a predecessor to stand among a contemporary as highly lauded as Jadus and an Ancient Sith speaks highly of Baras' power.

Star Wars: The Old Republic Encylopedia wrote:Notable Sith Inquisitors: Darth Jadus, Lord Vindican, Darth Baras, Naga Sadow

Moreover, recall that Baras is a member of the Dark Council and that only the most powerful of Sith Lords is set to join the prestigious group no doubt this includes Baras himself.

The Old Republic Encylopedia wrote:While the undying Emperor serves as the unquestioned leader of the Empire, the twelve members of the Dark Council oversee the daily workings of their vast civilization and speak in the Emperor’s name. Each is among the most powerful Sith in the galaxy; to hold a seat on the council is the highest honor and the greatest position of influence a Sith can attain.

While a Skywalker is hardly ever outclassed in the Force department, Baras holds the distinction of being one of the few beings capable of holding an ancient Sith Entity hostage and using her powers for his gain. as if that was already enough, Baras is also well regarded by Sel-Makor,

Star Wars: The Old Republic wrote:"Rewards. Power. Sel-Makor offers them to you. Like the one who came before."
"Who are you talking about? Was there someone here before Fulminiss?"
"Decades ago. A Sith. Greater than Fulminiss. Power was given

Fulminisss was a tremendously powerful individual.

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex entry(Lord Fulminiss) wrote:Widely regarded as one of the greatest Sith sorcerers in the Empire, the enigmatic Lord Fulminiss is a master of the dark side’s most arcane and lethal aspects. The grotesque Harrower assassins are his most famous creation, but legend has it he once summoned a raging storm of pure Force energy that disintegrated a rebellious city of natives in the Imperial-conquered Jabiim system.

This early in his career, Baras possessed such power that an Entity capable of subduing the Voice of the Emperor remained impressed decades later. Additionally, it's important to understand that even after the Wrath's efforts to undermine Baras, Darth Marr and the Dark Council remain unsure of Baras' status as the Voice of the Emperor which indicates that even base Baras is tremendously powerful. Indeed, after Baras' defeat, the Dark Council bows before the Wrath's "unquestionable might." suggesting the Dark Council, even at this base level held Baras in high esteem.

To summarize, Baras possess tremendous strength in the Force and is of considerable skill with the blade. In this scenario, Ben lacks any assistance from his allies and will be forced to take on Baras directly without anyone providing a distraction that he can take advantage. Ben may have fought Sith before, but this time he's up against the Dark Councillor.

I look forward to your response, friend!

In the begining i want to refute your points. So you write that Luke Skywalker consider skills of Ben as not great but i want see source of this statement. Contrary we have evidance that he think greately about his son.

["After a moment, Luke said, “Go ahead, son. The only traps in there will be of our own making.”
“Which are always the worst kind,” said Taalon. “Is that not true, Master Skywalker?”
“Certainly for the weak,” Luke said. “But Ben will be safe enough.”]
Fate of the Jedi Vortex

But let's give voice to the Sith's becouse as we know if Jedi spoke greately about Jedi he can be bias and can overestimate power of another Jedi but Sith's generally think that Jedi are fool and weak. So if they think that Ben is powerfull that means a lot.

[“While he is yet a boy, he is already a Jedi Knight. Their equivalent of a Saber. And yes, I believe she does.”]
Fate of the Jedi Ascension

[“They died well, at the hands of the Skywalkers,” was all she said to her father. “You have met them. You know that there is no dishonor in falling against them.”
“True,” said Gavar Khai, stepping beside her and squeezing her shoulder affectionately as he peered at the sketch. “But I would just as soon neither of us fell against them.”]
Fate of the Jedi Allies

You also write that he beat Nomen Karr who was Jedi master and loose to Wyellet becouse he was more powerfull but being powerfull Jedi Master in this era is like being one-eyed among the blind men becouse during this era...

Yes during this era Grand Master loose with Bounty Hunter. And as you admit Baras loose with Wyellet and didn't beat Xerender who was just a padawan. And during his duel with Angral he didn't show skill becouse Angral disarmed him.

You wrote also that in Dark Council generally were the most powerfull Sith Lords which is not necessery true becouse in DC was for many years Darth Xedriss who was weak and pathetic.
And about Baras proving himself as competent duelist i doubt this becouse he loose 3 duels (Wyellet, Angral, Wrath)  draw 4 (Satele, Karr, Angral, team Satele) and win 1(Angral's assassin). So this show that he is terrible duelist.

Okay so lets go my real opening.

1) Physical skills

Despite his young age Ben was in extremely good physical form. During battle in Jedi Temple he fought almost two days

[Sith were patient, she had to give them that. It had been thirty-six hours since her father and Master Skywalker had decided to break into the computer core, and the ambushers had probably been hiding behind the walls for most of that time. With any luck, they would be groggy and slow from the ordeal, and it would be easy to trick them—at least, as easy as it ever was to trick Sith]
Fate of the Jedi Apocalypse

He was wounded

[Ben had no time to wonder who had called out, or even to wonder  why. He simply sensed a blast of alarm, then felt Jaina grab him in the Force and Jysella reaching for his attention. In the same breath, his leg exploded in pain, and Ben looked down to see a finger-length shikkar lodged in his thigh.]
Fate of the Jedi Apocalypse

Drugged

[BEN AWOKE. HE FELT THE FAMILIAR SOFTNESS OF SHIP’S GEL-CUSHION floor beneath his aching body, and his temples pounding with the aftereffects of anesthetic gas … the same gas that filled the passenger cabin every time he tried to free himself.
As was his practice, he lay motionless, waiting for the fog to clear, trying to take stock of his circumstances. His hands remained behind him, secured by the same pair of stun cuffs that he had been trying to open when the gas had last come hissing from circulation vents. Judging by the numb ache in his shoulders, his arms had been folded under his back without moving for quite some time, and his tongue felt swollen with thirst. Clearly, this time he had been unconscious longer than a normal sleep cycle—for at least twenty-four hours, maybe even forty-eight.]
Fate of the Jedi Apocalypse

He eat and drink nothing few days

[The journey had taken days, and Abeloth had refused to allow her captives either water or food, urging them instead to throw off the shackles of mortality and claim their destiny.]
Fate of the Jedi Apocalypse

(minimum 3 days but probably more)

[It had been three days since the frigate Redstar had dropped Luke and Jaina at the entrance to the Maw]
Fate of the Jedi Apocalypse

Here you can see how terrible for him this was.

[Their heads were pounding and their vision was blurring, and their thoughts were coming slow and muddled.
...
He felt cold and queasy from the effects of so much dark-side energy, and had he not been so thoroughly dehydrated already, he probably would have vomited.]
Fate of the Jedi Apocalypse
Wounded once again.

[The order came to a strangled end as he felt himself flying back into the arcade. His shoulders hit a pillar dead-center, folding so far backward that both shoulder blades touched stone. Then a tremendous crack sounded inside his skull, and his head exploded into dark pain. He felt himself sliding down the pillar toward the cobblestones below, and the last thing he saw was Vestara retreating toward the Font of Power, disappearing into the yellow steam with the avatar close behind]
Fate of the Jedi:Apocalypse

And despite this he achived there one of the most fantastic force feat in all SW history(which i elaborate on in Force section)

But Baras ehh something give me though that he isn't in greatest physical form. But i'm not sure what this is.
https://youtu.be/tuyVDhtuzV0 00:58
Okay i know he is just fat. Within 13 years from this guy

He became this guy

And look also on his face he look like he should go to doctor for medicine that can heal from dark side intead of fighting.

So Ben is clearly better here

2)Dueling Skills

So lets start from fact who teach our characters fighting Ben was teach by Luke Skywalker and Jacen Solo two greatest swordsman that ever lived

[But he was still the best lightsaber swordsman around-excepting possibly Luke, perhaps the best there ever had bee]
Legacy of the Force Fury

And Jacen knew what he talking about becouse he saw Anakin fight with Cin Drallig who was Jedi battlemaster and really competent swordsman.

[A huge Jedi with stooped shoulders and a gnarled face backed into view, anchoring the line of teenage defenders, his lightsaber sending bolt after bolt back at the attackers, lashing out to cut down one trooper after another. A pair of Padawans stepped in to support his flanks, and the entire line stopped falling back, the lightsabers of the young Jedi weaving an impenetrable wall of energy that-for a few short moments-allowed nothing past, not a blaster bolt, nor a clone trooper, nor even, it seemed to Han, a stray glance.

A blue lightsaber appeared at the edge of the holo, beating down the defense of the first Padawan and slashing through his torso, then slipping past the guard of the other one and cutting him down as well. The back of a blond head and a pair of caped shoulders appeared behind the blue blade and began to carry the attack to the stoop-shouldered Jedi.

The two stood battling toe-to-toe for only an instant before the caped figure slipped a strike and brought his own blade down on the defender's stooped shoulder, cleaving him deep into the torso. The Jedi's gnarled face paled with shock, and he collapsed in too much pain to scream.]
Dark Nest II: The Unseen Queen

[Cin Drallig is honored with the mantle of both Chief of Security and Battlemaster for the Jedi Temple. His unparalleled skill with a lightsaber has benefited many a Jedi under his tutelage, including Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker]
Star Wars: Force Collection

["Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Cin Drallig or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu or, stars help you, Yoda?"]
Labyrinth of Evil

And Anakin beat Dooku
https://youtu.be/HLlf5bC1wxg
Who was one of the greatest duellist of Old Jedi order.

Better than any duellist of TOR era.
But what about Baras teacher? Well we don't know to much about him.
But good teacher isn't anything so lets compare them directly.
Contrary to Baras Ben really win with another Force user. I will not show you all Ben fights becouse of their quantity but i will show the most important.
In the begining his duel with Tahiri end as draw

[But Ben was already somersaulting after Tahiri, dropping down into the shaft above her. As they fell, she whirled around and brought her blade up, slashing at his neck-but not quickly enough to prevent him from blocking. He countered with a snap-kick to the spine that drew a pained grunt and sent her sailing into the wall.
Still falling, she came tumbling back at him, double-slashing at his midsection, then planting a boot in his ribs that drove the wind from his lungs and sent him slamming into the rocky wall. He tumbled out of control for an instant, plummeting through the darkness, then used the Force to bring himself under control.
How deep was this hole?
Tahiri's blade came weaving at him out of the murk, and Ben realized he had lost his night-vision goggles. He blocked, blocked again, then realized he had left his stomach wide open:and still managed to get his blade down a split second before Tahiri pressed her advantage.
Gasping in relief-she'd had him, but she had been too slow again-he kicked off her hip and hit the wall behind him, then used the Force to stick himself against it, hard. It was a hot, painful way to slow his descent, but it was better than the alternative.
Ben saw a glow above him and looked up to see Tahiri doing the same thing on the opposite side of the shaft, a dark figure behind a bright blade, glaring down at him with bright eyes. He pressed harder, slowing his descent more so she would not have the altitude advantage-then heard a loud splash below as the warhead reached the bottom.
Water. Great.
Tahiri pushed away from the wall, dropping toward him behind a wild cyclone of kicking boots and slashing blade.
It was a foolish attack. All Ben had to do was guard high, then parry and take her legs off at the knees. He raised his blade to do just that-then finally realized what he was seeing and parried without countering.
Tahiri dropped past, her face not showing relief, but screwed into a mask of surprise and rage, and Ben realized that she really didn't want to kill him. Maybe she didn't even want to survive.]
Legacy of the Force Invincible

The same Tahiri beat Abeloth with Boba Fett (and Luke Jaina and Corran?) help. And she was also veteran from Yuuzhan Vong war.

[With only a few seconds left before the first detonator exploded, Tahiri went straight to Plan B, activating her lightsaber and Force-leaping to the attack. She was on Abeloth by the count of eight, hacking through a trio of tentacles—which dropped to the tabletop and promptly slithered around her ankles.
A tremendous roar filled the room as Fett activated his jetpack and came streaking toward them, one hand grasping the detonator Abeloth had sent flying toward him—which he had nabbed from the air. He jammed the detonator into the fume-oozing wound in the same instant Tahiri’s count reached nine.]
Fate of the Jedi Apocalypse

[And there is no indication that she trained between 41-44 ABY. Contrary she hide and was in jail.
And in this time Ben was only fourteen and he was only student or freashly knighted.
During fight on Maw Station Ben and Luke together they killed 14 Sith's

Yeah, right," Ahri scoffed. "Two Jedi are stronger than fifteen Sith. That-"]
Fate of the Jedi Abyss

And only Vestara survived. But how powerfull this Sith's were. According to Luke

[That had changed with the arrival of the Sith strike team in the Maw cluster. Most of the Sith whom Ben and Luke had fought had been at about the level of training of experienced Jedi Knights. Luke had described Vestara Khai’s female companion as being at the approximate level of a Jedi Master. Ben didn’t feel lucky enough to hope that the strike team had been the last representatives of this new Sith Order.]
Fate of Jedi Backlash

And what is important here in this Era contrary to TOR era being on level of Jedi Master mean something ( Becouse in this ERA we have only 15 Jedi masters from which 8 were absolute badass(Saba Sebatyne, Jaina Solo, Mara Jade, Corran Horn, Kyle Katarn, Luke Skywalker, Kyp Durron and Tresina Lobi) 3 on good level(Cilghal Kam Solusar, Kenth Hamner) and 2 on unknown level(Octa Ramis, Barratk'l) only two was not good fighter (Tionne and Ikrit)).

Ben have also fantastick guard during one of his fight with Vestara he only protect himself. What is extremely hard.

[Desperate to know what had become of Ben, Luke reached out in the Force and felt the frightened, groggy presence of someone who had taken a head-shaking blow. He turned and found his son trapped against a wall, defending himself from Vestara’s fierce attack, an unrefined high–low–low– high pattern, which Ben was blocking only because of his strength in the Force and the reflexes drilled into him by thousands of hours of practice.]
Fate of the Jedi Vortex
https://youtu.be/2zEoo5sBzMw 0:40

And what this show us Ben spend thousands hours of trening but Baras when i look at him a doubt that he even go to the gym.
But return to Ben he id also really good shooter

[Luke and Ben continued to pour blasterfire into the tumbling mass, hitting two intruders before anyone started to bring themselves under control. A third figure perished when he hit a round-bellied transport cart and ruptured his vac suit. A fourth died when he brushed a detention-center barrier field and vaporized the shoulder of his vac suit.]
Fate of the Jedi Abyss

Ok but lets go to one of his greatest fight. On Dromund Kass he beat 3 Sith Sword(equals to Jedi knight) that were the best of Sith armada

[“I very much regret so, yes.” Annax used the Force to keep her voice sounding calm and confident. “We lost all ten of them, some of our best Sabers.”]
Fate of the Jedi Ascension

On Dromund Kass which is DS Nexus. That busted Darksiders and lower Ben skills

[Ben drew more and more heavily on the Force—it was difficult here, so close to a dark-side nexus, and it took more out of him.]
Fate of the Jedi Ascension

And what is really importand here Ben beat this 3 Sith's faster than Luke and Jaina(they were attacked by 6 Sith's).

[Luke and Jaina were fighting back-to-back. The Sith attacking them had two advantages. One was the fact that they outnumbered the two Jedi. The second was that they were being reinforced by the emanations of the dark-side nexus within the temple. It surged forth like psychic sewage, clogging the Jedi’s reflexes as it fueled their enemies.
But Luke had fought the Lost Tribe before, and he knew their style. He knew, too, that because until very recently they had only sparred and perhaps dueled among themselves, they had a lot to learn. But even Luke Skywalker would be foolish not to completely focus on a battle against six Sith.
...
Lost in that piercing gaze, Ben heard, as if from a great distance, the sound of lightsabers being extinguished and knew that his father and Jaina had won their fights. He turned to them as they approached.]
Fate of the Jedi Ascension

So Ben have better count in killing Sith's per hour than the best swordman of all time and probably second swordman(swordwoman) of all time. Pretty impresive. And this was serious duel becouse they have minor injures.

[We’ll need the bacta salve, but otherwise fine.” Luke regarded Vestara with an expression that was both cautious and kind.]
Fate of the Jedi:Ascension

And Vestara is also important becouse she thanks to her training with Luke and Ben eventualy beat her father Gavar(to whom i'll return in the end of my oppening).

[He sprang up and leapt over her head, turning as he went to slash out with the lightsaber, attempting to carve through her skull. Vestara ducked and struck upward with her own glowing red weapon, shoving it aside so that Khai had to twist to avoid striking himself. She was surprised at how easy it was. Was she really that much better a fighter after her time with the Skywalkers?
“Very good,” he said. “Your skills have improved. But not your loyalties."
...
Vestara cried out, sharply, wordlessly, her voice raw as she swung with all her skill and speed.
Her red blade sliced through robes and flesh, cutting through him from right shoulder to left hip. He collapsed, dead before he hit the ground.]
Fate of the Jedi Ascension

[And Vestara also show how powerfull she is when she escape from Sith Lady and twenty of Sith's.
[Twenty warriors and a High Lord, all to chase down a single girl. Had the Circle gone mad]
Fate of the Jedi Apocalypse

And she killed during this 2 Sith's

[She activated her blade.
Her pursuer screamed. Vestara flicked her wrist, dragging the blade through his body. She did not break stride.
...
Vestara let her leg collapse, and her weight fell on the arm around her waist. Taken by surprise, Emerald-Eyes failed to catch her, and Vestara dropped like a bag of rocks. When the lightsaber pressed to her throat did not ignite, Vestara knew she was right about the huge effort to capture her. The Sith wanted her—but they wanted her alive.
By the time she hit the floor, Vestara was rolling back toward her captor. She drove an elbow into Emerald-Eyes’s knee and heard a pop. A nice loud pop. The woman screamed, and the crack-siss of an igniting lightsaber sounded above Vestara’s head.
Too late.
Vestara was already grabbing for the wrist. She snapped it at the joint, forcing the blade away as Emerald-Eyes collapsed. Vestara accelerated into her roll, driving her foe down hard, and the hollow crack of skull hitting yorik coral echoed off the walls. Yorik coral was harder. Emerald-Eyes went into seizure, body shaking and mouth foaming.]
Fate of the Jedi Apocalypse

But Ben is better than her.

[Her face stinging from the invisible blow, she flicked a finger and her lightsaber sprang to her hand. Ben had gathered himself to leap at her and had to twist his body sharply as she swung, the glowing red blade singing its unique and unmistakable song as it sliced through air. Vestara pursued, forcing her body to calm, even though she was trembling with outrage.
A whirling kick that she should have seen coming a kilometer away knocked the lightsaber out of her hands. Ben extended a hand and it flew to him, and Vestara had the unique sight of Ben Skywalker, Jedi Knight, standing in a dark room with his angry features lit by the red glow of a Sith lightsaber.
She sprang toward him, but he lifted his left hand and the pillows rose to attack her with soft, harmless vigor that nonetheless blocked her vision and pressed in close to her face, smothering her. The precious second she struggled against them gave Ben all the time he needed to pin her against the bed and use the Force to swathe her in the bedsheets.
She struggled against him for a long moment, then suddenly sagged. He stood, catching his breath, his face still eerily illuminated by the scarlet glow, then extinguished the lightsaber.]
Fate of the Jedi Ascension

And Ben also could easily killed Sith Lord.

[Jaina suddenly leapt onto the bench, her lightsaber igniting barely in time to intercept a fork of Force lightning that came crackling out of the delivery portal. Ben spun to the other side, activating his own blade and moving in for the kill as their Sith attacker shot out into the open.
Ben did not strike.
The Sith was too familiar, a tall slender Lord with thin sneering lips, wearing a black cape over blast armor. His hands were extended in front of him, continuing to pour Force lightning into Jaina’s flagging guard even after the freight-handling system dropped him facedown on the receiving bench. Ben waved his blade past the Sith’s eyes to catch his attention, then lowered the tip to within a few centimeters of the man’s temple.
“Surrender or die,” Ben ordered. “Decide now.”
Jaina’s outrage hit like a Force blast, but Ben did not care. This was the Lord who had taken Vestara prisoner—who had been trying to use her to lure Ben into an ambush. If Ben had any chance at all of rescuing her, it lay with this Sith. So even when the man was slow to stop attacking Jaina, Ben did not kill him. Instead he placed a boot in the center of the Sith’s back and repeated his order.
“Surrender or die.”
The Lord let his chin drop, and the Force lightning fizzled out. He turned to look up at Ben.
“What is it you want, Jedi?” The words would have been soft under the best of circumstances. But with the ringing in Ben’s ears, he had to stoop down to hear them clearly. “A trade?”
Ben nodded. “The thought had crossed my mind.” It appeared it might be easier to strike a deal than he expected. “Your life for—”
“Ben!”
Ben had no time to wonder who had called out, or even to wonder  why. He simply sensed a blast of alarm, then felt Jaina grab him in the Force and Jysella reaching for his attention. In the same breath, his leg exploded in pain, and Ben looked down to see a finger-length shikkar lodged in his thigh.
The Sith used the Force to snap off the hilt, then took advantage of his victim’s shock to roll away from the lightsaber hovering at his temple. Ben lunged after him, but stopped when Jysella clutched at him through the Force.]
Fate of the Jedi Apocalypse

Ok but what about Baras? Well as i showed in my rebbutal he never was good duelist. But even if he had some skills he loose it during this 13 years of sitting job when he focused on conspiracy instead of fight(and when he became fat). Listly Ben have also advantage here becouse he used style unknown to Darth Baras but Ben fought with opponents that used classical lightsaber forms(Lost tribe of the Sith)

[Vestara leapt as Ahri dived, using his Force push to her own advantage, turning twice in the air and landing surely, facing him. She smirked in satisfaction as she brushed her renegade locks out of the way. Ahri completed his dive and came to his feet, rolling in the sand. Vestara extended her arm with the grace of a dancer. Ahri’s lightsaber was snatched from his hand and flew into hers. She grasped it and dropped into the Jar’Kai stance, ready to come at him with both blades. Ahri looked up and sighed, dropping back into the sand.]
Fate of the Jedi Omen

So i end this section with rhetorical question who do you think is better duelist one who beat countless opponents or this who never beat anyone?

3) Force power

Ok so in the begining lets talk about raw power and potential. How big is Ben potential? Well all signs show that he have potential of his father and grandfather. How we can know this? In the begining Luke has similar or equal potential like Anakin.

["And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."]
George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

And Jaina and Jacen have similar potential to Luke.

["If it is someone else, I won't complain. But if it has to be me, I want to be ready. You showed me I wasn't." She took a moment to consider her words. "I'm his twin. I have as much power as he does. ...
potentially. But he's had training I haven't. I need to counter it with training he hasn't had. And the sort of ingenuity you showed me."]
Legacy of the Force Fury

[And, as history repeated itself because it had no other choice, Jacen was more powerful than any of them except Luke. And he was growing closer to Luke’s strength by the day.
When he achieved Sith Mastery, he would surpass him. He hadn’t yet thought how Luke and he would coexist after that point had been reached. For a brief and tempting moment Jacen considered Force-walking into the future, as he had done before, but his instinct said to leave it alone for the time being.]
Legacy of the Force Bloodlines

[I tell you this: though neither he nor they yet know it, he is the greatest of all the Jedi. Jacen Solo is the living Jedi dream. Even without the Force, he is more dangerous than you can possibly imagine.]
The New Jedi Order: Traitor

[And now he could feel the Yuuzhan Vong. And the Force was with him.
He could follow Anakin’s path. He could be pure warrior. He could be even greater than his brother had been: with the dark power he could command, he could surpass any living Jedi, even Uncle Luke. Surpass even the Jedi Knights of old.
He could be the greatest sword of the Force who had ever lived.
More: He could avenge his brother with the weapon his brother had forged.]
The New Jedi Order Traitor

[Luke Skywalker stood before the crib of Jaina and Jacen, his niece and nephew.
The two infants cooed happily as he gently stretched out with his feelings, projecting warmth and love to the squirming pair. For a moment, Luke simply marveled at the beauty of life and creation, and realized
that he was as deeply in tune with the light side of the Force as he had ever been. Leia had told him of her contact with their minds during their delivery. Since the children had the Skywalker "talent" for the Force, Luke felt it was important to see
just how in strong in the Force the twins were. Intently concentrating, the Jedi Knight began to carefully gauge the aura of the Force that surrounded the twins.
After a moment, Luke gasped and broke off his contact. I had no idea, he thought with awe. Such ... potential. The next generation of Jedi has truly arrived.
...
They have a bond between them, a link in the Force that I can only begin to sense. They are so strong, so rich in the Force. They are completely attuned to each other it's beautiful. They'll never be alone. Even," she added softly, "when they're
аpart."]
The Last Command Sourcebook

["I wish I could do that, Uncle Luke," Jacen said. "That was really something."
"You will be able to do anything you want, Jacen," Luke said. "You have the potential-as long as you have the discipline."]
Heirs of the Force

But Ben have advantage over them becouse he have two Jedi parents.

[Kyp shook his head. “Sorry, but no,” he said. “Jaina is Han’s daughter just as much as Leia’s, and that means only one parent is a Force-user. Ben is the son of two parents who were both very strong in  the Force. No offense to Jaina, but Ben has Special Destiny written all over him.”]
Fate of the Jedi Apocalypse

And we can see their bloodlines when Jaina's heirs where generally normal in terms of force skills like Roan and Marasiah Ben heirs where powerfull Jedi and some of them Force give new powers like Cade who get from Force dark transfer.
And Anakin midichlorian count is over 20000
https://youtu.be/uxIrH5l4BG4
But how big Baras midichlorian count is? Well we just don't know but according to Tenebrous person born from Force should have at least 15000 midichlorians so that's mean that normal Force users have count way beneath 15000 midichlorians.

[And further, as Tenebrous discovered with rising excitement, such a being s Force potential might be limited not by its creator's own midi-chlorian count, but instead only by its creator's level of discipline and attention to detail. Indeed, his calculations indicated a range potentially far beyond his own. With proper execution, the "savior" might have a midi-chlorian count as high as fifteen thousand!]
The Tenebrous Way

To be clear this isn't necessery true becouse there are anomalies like Kyp Durron or Valkorion but Baras isn't this type of anomalie so how many midichlorians he have? Probably between 8000-13000 i guess.
You write also that Force enteity choose Baras but another Force enteity choose Ben as incarnation of light. Yes incarnation of light

[Ben, she insisted, was to become the eternal Prince of Light, and he would keep burning the twin flames of justice and forgiveness.Vestara was to become the irresistible Daughter of the Night. She would guard the forbidden mysteries of the Force—and she would bring life to the galaxy by filling dreams with images of beauty and desire. Together, the three of them would become the Ones, and they would live forever and remake the galaxy however it suited them.]
Fate of the Jedi Apocalypse

So Ben gets the edge in raw power
Ok raw power is obviously important but this is legends continuity not canon so you must have also trening and skills no just raw power and force dyad to win.
So we compare here Baras and Ben usage of force.
Ok so as you write Baras used Sith magic and this is true BUT he never used this in combat. He was good in interrogation but not in combat. What else? He used Force lightning? Yes this is true but watch this.
https://youtu.be/05jf_k5hBxM 4:00
His Force lightning was easy to redirect into Baras himself and he did nothing to this. So Ben also can do this or he can just block this lightning really easy becouse he did this with Taalon(who is much more powerfull than Baras)

[In the next instant his father was riding a bolt of Force lightning into the grotto wall beside him. Ben ignited his lightsaber and shoved the blade into the crackling energy, disrupting the current and freeing his father.]
Fate of the Jedi Vortex

Baras also can break enemy shield and force choke opponent.
https://youtu.be/05jf_k5hBxM 2:37
But Ben is much better and much more creative in this.

[It was too fancy, too much. Ben merely stepped back and gave her empty hand a Force tug. Instead of returning to her grasp ready to throw again, the parang sliced her hand off at the wrist. The woman cried out, and her heel kick glanced off the canister he was holding]
Fate of the Jedi Abbys

[Ben did not even hesitate. He used the Force to pluck the shikkar from its scabbard, then drove the tip up through the center of the Keshiri’s back, angling the blade so that it passed through her spinal cord, straight into her heart.
A spray of dark blood erupted around the shikkar’s handle, and the Keshiri collapsed to her knees, then threw her smashed head back and let loose with an eerie wail. Her tentacles slid free of Vestara and started to swing around toward her back.
Ben used the Force to snap off the shikkar’s handle]
Fate of the Jedi Apocalypse

He can also push even higher objects without any problem.

[“That we don’t have to surrender to her,” Ben whispered. He glanced across the courtyard toward the ruined arcade, then used the Force to lift a section of broken pillar and bring it spinning toward the back of the avatar’s head. “We just have to work together.”]
Fate of the Jedi Apocalypse
And as reminder
https://youtu.be/wg1ydN42ukY 2:40

[Ignoring the pain, Ben leapt upward, back on both feet and in a crouch as three Sabers turned on him. Their Force auras blazed with confidence. Ben smiled to himself. He parried the two blades with his lightsaber clutched in one hand, whipping back and forth between the two foes. With the other hand, he Force-hurled the third into the air. Alert and attentive, he unerringly directed the Sith’s flight toward Gavar Khai, who was bearing down on his offspring so forcefully their blades were a blur.]
Fate of the Jedi Ascension

And what is important here he did this on Dromund Kass DS Nexus.
What show that he can overpower his opponent even in Dark Side Nexus.

[Ben drew more and more heavily on the Force—it was difficult here, so close to a dark-side nexus, and it took more out of him.]
Fate of the Jedi Ascension

Speaking about DS Nexus lets go to Ben two most fantastic feats. First when he was wounded, beaten,drugged, and after few days of eating and drinking nothing (as i showed in physical section) and what's even more fantastic in darkside Nexus (which clearly damaged his skills) he pushed Abeloth

[Ben shook his head. “Not by drinking from the font.” He stepped closer to Vestara and pointed toward the fountain behind her. “That thing is a dark side nexus—probably the most potent one in the entire galaxy. You don’t use something that powerful. It uses you.”
...
Vestara screamed as she stumbled back into Ben. He spun around instantly and found Abeloth already on Vestara, tentacles probing for  her mouth and nose. Lacking a lightsaber or any other sort of weapon, Ben stepped into the melee and slammed a palm-heel into the center of Abeloth’s chest, at the same time hitting her with a panic-fueled blast of Force energy.
Abeloth went flying, doubled over, trailing a spray of bloody bile. Vestara recovered her footing and stepped forward into a fighting crouch, her arms raised and ready to attack, either hand-to-hand or with the Force. Ben found himself staring in amazement at the cone of red mist that Abeloth had left behind, surprised by the power of the Force blast he had just unleashed.]
Fate of the Jedi Apocalypse

And...

[Ben opened himself to the Force completely, shielding himself from the Font of Power’s darkness by drawing its energies through the power of all he loved in the galaxy, through his faith in the Jedi purpose and the promise of the future—through his confidence in Vestara and the sure knowledge that she would soon join him in the ranks of the Jedi Knights. The Force came pouring into Ben from all sides, irresistible and pure, a flood of light and purpose that no being in the galaxy could deny. He felt himself become the Force, a swirl of power and energy, and he focused all that he was on the approaching Keshiri, hitting her with a Force blast that would have knocked a frigate out of orbit.]
Fate of the Jedi Apocalypse

And i remind you that frigate should be ready to survive serious bombardment. And serious bombardment looks like this
https://youtu.be/Ga46ILw7iaY 0:43
So you can only imagine what will happend to Baras after Ben will pushed him instead of Abeloth.
And Ben also have minor skills he can use for example he can redirect blaster bolt

[The whir of a charging blaster made him leap up just as Shevu burst through the gap and fired. Ben deflected the bolt, sending a stack of holozine pads smoking to the floor. "Sir, sir, it's me! It's Ben!" He held out both arms well away from his body. "Hold fire!"
Shevu, panting and wide-eyed, was down on one knee by the cover of an armchair with his service blaster still leveled at Ben.
"Stang, Ben, "he snapped. His shoulders relaxed in-stantly and he shut his eyes for a moment. "Don't do that. Call ahead, for goodness' sake."
"Sorry. Sorry about the damage, too."]
Legacy of the Force Revelation

He can hide his presence in the force.

["Then hide your Force presence and wait for my signal," Luke ordered. "We might learn something just by watching them."
Ben slipped into his own hiding place-the foot well of an equipment console, on the upper tier directly across from his father. He quickly drew his Force presence inward, shrinking it down until even he could not sense it, then felt the floor reverberate as the heavy hatch fell into the room.]
Fate of the Jedi Abyss

So as you can see Ben not only win in raw power (where he clearly overpower Baras) he have also more skills and what's more important he is more focused on fight while Baras is more focused on interrogation and manipulation.

Equipment
This will be fast Baras has only lightsaber
https://youtu.be/05jf_k5hBxM 2:30
Ben has lightsaber and blaster

[Ben sprang forward, swinging his lightsaber at her forward knee.
...
Ben squeezed his blaster trigger half a dozen times and saw Khai slam into the cavern wall with smoke rising from his robes and armor. He sensed danger, turned to his side and saw Vestara flying at him, her blade weaving baskets of crimson light as she whirled it through an attack pattern.]
Fate of the Jedi Vortex
Clear win for Ben.

So i will end my opening with chain Vestara thanks to her training with Luke and Ben eventualy beat her father Gavar.(Sources are in dueling skills section)
What is important here becouse Gavar, Sarasu Taalon and Vestara were equal(or at least they believed so) to Ben and Luke.

[“I saw your reaction when you realized the Shadow was gone.” Luke reached down and plucked the lightsaber off her belt. “And if it’s going to come to another fight, I’d be a fool to let it start with uneven odds.”]
Fate of the Jedi: Vortex

[“Send them away,” Luke said. “I’ll let Jaina and Lando go, too. Two Jedi, three Sith. The numbers do seem a bit unfair, I admit. For you.”
Taalon and Khai exchanged glances, smiling ever so slightly. “I agree,” said the High Lord.]
Fate of the Jedi Allies

And this was confirmed during fight.

["He should have known better than to worry. As Khai ignited his lightsaber, Luke was already ducking and reaching up to grab a passing ankle. With a quick, circular jerk, he brought Khai smashing down on Taalon and Vestara.
Then he rolled his blade around, brought it down, and sent a Sith forearm sliding across the grotto floor. Whom it had belonged to, Ben could not tell.
In the next instant his father was riding a bolt of Force lightning into the grotto wall beside him. Ben ignited his lightsaber and shoved the blade into the crackling energy, disrupting the current and freeing his father."]
Fate of the Jedi Vortex

And what was shown many times in FotJ Ben is slightly better than Vestara but they could fight equally with each other so Gavar+Sarasu +Vestara=Ben+Luke
Vestara≤Ben Gavar+Sarasu=Luke Skywalker
And GM Luke Skywalker is much stronger than DE Luke Skywalker. Who beat DE Palpatine.

Who was better than AotC Palpatine. And AotC was strongest Sith ever.

[The greatest Sith Lord of all time, Darth Sidious, has been planning his takeover of the galaxy for many years]
Star Wars: Attack of the Clones - Character and Equipment Data File Facts

Which means better than Valkorion.
And what Valkorion did to Darth Marr?
https://youtu.be/Fd9QFR-WyOg 2:50
And Darth Marr>Darth Baras becouse contrary to Baras he have real fighting experience.
So Sarasu+Gavar=GM Luke Skywalker>DE Luke Skywalker≥DE Palpatine> AotC Palpatine>Valkorion>>>>>>>>>> Darth Marr> Baras. Ok so lets separate Gavar and Sarasu. Well we know that Sarasu is stronger and he is weaker than AotC Palpatine (and probably weaker than Valkorion i don't have any proof for this but its hard to believe that he is more powerfull than Valkorion). So GM Luke Skywalker>DE Luke Skywalker> DE Palpatine> AotC Palpatine> Valkorion> Sarasu Taalon. So Gavar Khai must be powerfull enough to fulfill this hole between GM Luke Skywalker and Sarasu. So how powerfull he is? Well he must be AT LEAST higher than Kit Fisto becouse Kit did nothing special when he faced RotS Palpatine. And Gavar Khai did more against Luke (little but still more than Kit).Ok you can say that Marr was taken by suprised well this is partialy true becouse at that moment he looked at Valkorion so he probably raised some Force barier. And Gavar was also suprised by Luke. Ok so Crucible Ben Skywalker> FotJ Ascesion Ben Skywalker> FotJ Ascesion Vestara>Gavar Khai> Darth Marr> Darth Baras. And Gavar prove this when he was twice attacked by Luke(more powerfull than Valkorion) but instead being onehited like Darth Marr he release himself and fight with Luke.

[“This is no trick,” Luke said, turning toward the arcade where Taalon had taken Vestara. “But Sith or not, I won’t stand by and al ow a sixteen-year-old girl to be beaten.”
Without awaiting a reply—and ignoring for the moment the fact that there was no indication that anyone was being beaten—Luke started across the courtyard. Taken even more by surprise than Ben was, Khai stood with his jaw hanging for a couple of heartbeats, then final y seemed to realize that he needed to do something.
By then, Luke was only a couple of steps from the arcade.
“Wait!” Khai extended his hand, using the Force to jerk Luke to a stop. “You can’t interaaagggghh!”
The objection came to a shrieking end as Luke whirled around, using his own Force strength to supplement Khai’s.
The Sith left the ground and flew across five paces of courtyard into the iron-tight grasp of Luke’s artificial hand.
“Someone needs to intervene,” Luke said calmly. “And since her father won’t, I wil .”
...
Ben suddenly found himself hanging upside down, his ankle locked in the High Lord’s crushing grasp and his eyes fixed on the crimson blade that was no more than a centimeter from pushing into his chest. In the next instant Luke and Gavar Khai came rushing around the pyre together, their lightsabers ignited but not yet crossing.]
Fate of the Jedi Vortex

[“Jedi treachery!” Khai extended a hand and used a blast of Force energy to splash the image away, then turned to glare at Ben. “I should have killed you days aaah—” Khai’s threat came to a startled end as he went sailing across the Pool. He slammed into the far wall of the grotto and remained there, pinned in place by the invisible hand of the Force.
“Days ago, Gavar, you might have had a chance to succeed,” Luke said, stepping to the pool. “Now that the odds are more even, you’d do well to avoid threatening my son.” He glanced over at Ben and flashed a quick smile, then added, “The next time, he just might take you seriously.”
...A loud splash echoed through the cavern, and Ben knew he was too late. He came around with his lightsaber in both hands, at middle guard between him and Vestara. She had finally taken her own weapon in hand and stood prepared to defend herself, but she still appeared more puzzled than ready. A couple of meters to their side, Ben was vaguely aware of his own father diving toward the far side of the cavern, and the delicate clinkle of Gavar Khai’s shikkar shattering on the stone floor behind him.
Vestara tensed to spring, confused no longer. Ben sprang forward, swinging his lightsaber at her forward knee. She ignited her own blade and flipped it down to block; then a hardness came to her eyes and her parang began to rise from its sheath.
Ben was already snapping his hips around, launching a vicious roundhouse kick at her sore shoulder. “Out of my way!”
The blow caught her high on the arm, driving her injured shoulder up toward her head. There was a loud pop, and Vestara staggered away, one arm hanging limp. Ben stepped to the edge of the pool and, below its surface, saw Taalon’s dark-robed figure swimming underwater toward the far end. Ben stepped after him, gathering himself to dive.
“Ben, no!” His father Force-shoved him back. “Take—” The order vanished beneath a deafening crackle, and suddenly the blinding blue flicker of Force lightning filled the grotto. Ben pulled his blaster with his free hand and traced the dancing forks to their source on the far side of the pool, where Gavar Khai crouched on the stone floor spraying bolts at Luke.
Ben squeezed his blaster trigger half a dozen times and saw Khai slam into the cavern wall with smoke rising from his robes and armor. He sensed danger, turned to his side and saw Vestara flying at him, her blade weaving baskets of crimson light as she whirled it through an attack pattern.]
Fate of the Jedi Vortex

There is also shorter version of this chain Gavar Khai is better when you compare him to Luke Skywalker than Darth Marr when you compare him to Valkorion(Source are above) and Luke Skywalker>Valkorion. So Gavar Khai>Darth Marr. So Crucible Ben Skywalker> FotJ Ascesion Ben Skywalker>FotJ Ascesion Vestara Khai> Gavar Khai>Darth Marr> Darth Baras.

Ok to conclude this oppening Ben not only win in one or two but in all four category. So this was my oppening now is your time my friend.

Stanley wrote:In the begining i want to refute your points. So you write that Luke Skywalker consider skills of Ben as not great but i want see source of this statement. Contrary we have evidance that he think greately about his son.

Ben's training:

]

While Ben was a mere thirteen-year-old at the time, it's easy to see he's the less astute of the Skywalker/Solo bloodline given that his cousins Jaina and Jacen were already able to fight on par with other the apprentices of the Shadow Academy, and even beat one the Academy masters when they were the same age. Moreover, even Anakin Solo was lauded as the next Luke Skywalker when he was about the same age as Ben.

Stanley wrote:You also write that he beat Nomen Karr who was Jedi master and loose to Wyellet becouse he was more powerfull but being powerfull Jedi Master in this era is like being one-eyed among the blind men becouse during this era...

The actions of one do not speak for the actions of all. Zym’s failure doesn’t = the failure of the entire Jedi of the TOR Era. Zym is featless, accoladeless and wankless; he's not comparable to Jedi who gave high praise to their name. Nomen Karr(Champion of Light), and Wyellet(Superweapon).  That comment is a gross over-simplification of things.

Stanley wrote:Yes during this era Grand Master loose with Bounty Hunter.

and Darth Nihilus couldn't kill Mandalore like he killed an entire world. And Darth Maul struggled against bounty hunters in TCW, and Grievous couldn't kill Padawan Ahsoka etc etc.
Point is, it doesn't matter cuz it has no effect on our current discussion, respectfully.

Stanley wrote:And as you admit Baras loose with Wyellet and didn't beat Xerender who was just a padawan.

Considering he was facing a Jedi more powerful than Nomen Karr and is himself considered a superweapon, it's no wonder Baras had trouble.

Baras: Regarding Wylett:

Stanley wrote:And during his duel with Angral he didn't show skill becouse Angral disarmed him.

Read it again, he didn't.

Stanley wrote:You wrote also that in Dark Council generally were the most powerfull Sith Lords which is not necessery true becouse in DC was for many years Darth Xedriss who was weak and pathetic.

That is your opinion, which directly contradicts facts.

SWTOR: Codex: Dark Council wrote:While the undying Emperor serves as the unquestioned leader of the Empire, the twelve members of the Dark Council oversee the daily workings of their vast civilization and speak in the Emperor’s name. Each is among the most powerful Sith in the galaxy; to hold a seat on the council is the highest honor and the greatest position of influence a Sith can attain.

TOR: Encylopedia wrote:In the Emperor's absence, the galaxy's most domineering, powerful, brilliant, and cunning Sith lead the Empire's path to glory.

SWTOR wrote:"The Dark Council are the galaxy's most powerful Sith."

Read em, and weep.

Stanley wrote:And about Baras proving himself as competent duelist i doubt this becouse he loose 3 duels (Wyellet, Angral, Wrath)  draw 4 (Satele, Karr, Angral, team Satele) and win 1(Angral's assassin).

I've already addressed this.

Stanley wrote:Physical condition.

Summarizing because I want this to be short and sweet. Baras, despite his physicality contends quite well with the Wrath, his former apprentice, and the one who defeated his former nemesis Nomen Karr and Wyellet. From this, we can infer that Baras has become substantially more powerful since his battles with both Jedi. Additionally, The Wrath was Sith Warrior, meaning that they were highly combat-oriented.

TOR: Codex: Sith Warrior wrote:Sith Warriors are deadly, expert fighters equipped with a lightsaber and the Force. Warriors can rush into a fight with Force Charge and Smash multiple targets with the Force.

With the possibility of becoming a Marauder or a Juggernaut both of which remain combat-oriented and strength-based the Warrior had to be in top condition for either of these disciplines

SWTOR: Advanced Class: Sith Juggernaut wrote:Sith who train in the stalwart arts of the Juggernaut boast unrivaled stamina in battle. Through diligence and clarity, Juggernauts shape the Force to their will to shrug off damage that would destroy others and fill foes with doubt and despair. Protecting their allies and punishing their adversaries, Juggernauts charge into the thick of any fray. All Sith Juggernauts learn to move in heavy armor and build extra energy to perform spectacular feats. Juggernauts can opt to learn the ways of Vengeance, making them into crushing forces that pursue their prey with single-minded fury; the art of the Immortal, fearing no enemy and keeping lesser allies from harm; and Rage, subduing cowering foes with lightsaber strikes and crushing them with the Force.

Advance Class: Sith Marauder wrote:Wielding two lightsabers and unmatched aggression, Sith trained as Marauders slice through enemy ranks dealing death with merciless efficiency. Whether annihilating a squad of Republic troops or cutting down a single Jedi, the Marauder sees and exploits every weakness to exact the greatest toll. Never hesitating, never faltering, there is no swifter bringer of pain in the galaxy.

All Sith Marauders can wield two lightsabers in combat, crushing their foes with superior speed and becoming a terror on the battlefield. Marauders can opt to learn the ways of Annihilation, learning the Juyo lightsaber techniques and inflicting traumas upon their enemies; Carnage, specializing in swift movement and acrobatics to obliterate foes before they can react; and Rage, subduing cowering foes with lightsaber strikes and crushing them with the Force.

the Wrath was afforded no advantage against Baras despite their skillset. Neither will Ben. Your point holds no weight here, friend.  

Stanley wrote:Ok but what about Baras? Well as i showed in my rebbutal he never was good duelist. But even if he had some skills he loose it during this 13 years of sitting job when he focused on conspiracy instead of fight(and when he became fat). Listly Ben have also advantage here becouse he used style unknown to Darth Baras but Ben fought with opponents that used classical lightsaber forms(Lost tribe of the Sith)

While Ben might be skilled, he’s dueled Tahiri whose best battle comes from dueling(and losing?) against Neophyte Leia. He’s dueled the Sabres who are allegedly the equivalent of a Jedi Knight. He beat Vestara and her father who are the equivalent of a Jedi Master(per Luke's comments)

Consider the following; Baras fought the Wrath in what is described as a furious engagement.

TOR: Encylopedia wrote:But to prove such a bold claim to the Dark Council, the Wrath battles Darth Baras in a fierce duel. The Wrath emerges triumphant, striking down the ruined and seething Darth Baras.

At this point in time, Baras’ has fought a Wrath that is already on the same level as the upper elite of the Dark Council. Consider that barring the Jedi Heroes, the Wrath has brought down famous Sith like Darth Ekkage who was believed to have the capacity to change the very course of the galactic war, Lord Draahg who possessed a power that few had ever seen, Darth Vengean who very casually dismissed Draahg and held enough sway within the Dark Council that he went unpunished by the Emperor or the Council when he openly criticized the former.

Ekkage:

Draahg:

Vengean:

To reiterate, Baras still fought furiously against The Wrath and though he lost, Baras was the final stepping stone that allowed the Dark Council to recognize that the Wrath was of unquestionable might.

TOR: Encylopedia wrote:The Wrath emerges triumphant, striking down the ruined and seething Darth Baras. With vengeance delivered and the Emperor’s will satisfied, the Dark Council bows to the unquestionable might of the Emperor’s Wrath.

Indeed, even the Wrath considers Baras to be "their greatest enemy yet", surpassing the likes of the entity capable of overpowering the voice of the emperor, Sel-Makor, the Sith capable of changing the course war, Darth Ekkage, The Dark Councilor that went unpunished by the Emperor, Darth Vengean, the Jedi Superweapon Wylett, Champion of Light Nomen Karr, Greatest teacher of his time and legendary Jedi Yonlach and "Greater command of lightsaber combat." Yul-li.

SWTOR: The Wrath wrote:"if I am to die, it should be face-to-face with my greatest enemy."

In terms of power and dueling ability Baras absolutely destroys Ben.

Stanley wrote:Ben's Oneness

I hope you're familiar with the term "oneness." The state of being wherein a titular character enters a sort of Avatar-state that allows them to draw on the Force itself to empower them in a way that detracts from their normal combative abilities and allows them to achieve god-level feats like sending a Force-wave capable of moving a Frigate. These states usually involve circumstances where the character finds themselves in fighting off insurmountable odds and leads them to this avatar-state. The implication here being that this is not the level that the character usually operates at normally. So while this is impressive, this level of oneness won't come into play here. My apologies, friend.

Stanley wrote:The Chain

In the interest of time, I'll say only this. Marr & the council were so convinced of Baras' power as the voice of the emperor that when the Wrath confronted the Usurper  Darth Marr , along with many others, abstained from interfering for fear that Baras' was truly the Voice. Once again, this was after the fact that Vowrawn, the Hands and the Wrath all worked to sabotage Baras. Additionally, Vowrawn considered Baras, who was sabotaged, near-unbeatable.

Darth Vowrawn wrote:"It is time for you to confront Darth Baras. Even now, Baras is near-indestructible."

In closing. Ben is far less focused on combat than his cousins, Baras leads the war effort. Ben possesses the Skywalker potential but lacks the finesse and experience that Darth Baras has. Ben's fought Sith Sabres and such, Baras has fought his Apprentice, a near equal. Ben's oneness won't come into play here because the circumstances won't be as dire as they were then. Ben's force prowess may be impressive, yet hardly a challenge for someone of Baras' level. Ben will kneel, just as the Dark Council did.

Your move, darling.

1) About Ben as duellist.

You give us example of Ben training in Tempest. And you conclude that:

{While Ben was a mere thirteen-year-old at the time, it's easy to see he's the less astute of the Skywalker/Solo bloodline given that his cousins Jaina and Jacen were already able to fight on par with other the apprentices of the Shadow Academy, and even beat one the Academy masters when they were the same age. Moreover, even Anakin Solo was lauded as the next Luke Skywalker when he was about the same age as Ben.}

This is problematic becouse we don't talk about 40ABY Ben but 45ABY Ben. He had 4-5 years to grow. For example Obi-Wan about Anakin in AotC
https://youtu.be/xzl9vILdMwc 0:40

But in RotS
https://youtu.be/q21iovpIU9A 0:25

People just can grow and change. Also compare Luke in ANH or in RotJ(and Ben have more time to grow than Luke between this movies). Fast growth of power is possible(Jaden Korr Anakin Corran Horn Kueller Kyp Durron). Even Hero of Tython. In 3643BBY he was padawan but in 3640 BBY he beat Vitiate. So if this guys can growth so quickly why not Ben? Especialy that none of them have so great Force potential(except Anakin and Kyp of course). And as we saw he really train a lot and grow in strength.

[He turned and found his son trapped against a wall, defending himself from Vestara’s fierce attack, an unrefined high–low–low– high pattern, which Ben was blocking only because of his strength in the Force and the reflexes drilled into him by thousands of hours of practice]
Fate of the Jedi Vortex

So between this fight with Luke Ben spend ,, thousands of hours of practice". And as i bring in my opening even Sith admit that he was powerfull. And i remind you that Ben in Tempest fought against Luke Skywalker the most powerfull Jedi ever while he was only padawan. Imagine what would happend if Baras want force Vitiate to stand from his throne? Becouse this was challange that Ben here faced.

2)Ben vs Jacen and Jaina

You write
{While Ben was a mere thirteen-year-old at the time, it's easy to see he's the less astute of the Skywalker/Solo bloodline given that his cousins Jaina and Jacen were already able to fight on par with other the apprentices of the Shadow Academy, and even beat one the Academy masters when they were the same age. Moreover, even Anakin Solo was lauded as the next Luke Skywalker when he was about the same age as Ben.}

Well even if 14 years old Jacen and Jaina are better than 13 years old Ben that doesn't mean that 18 years old Ben is weaker than Baras. But i also don't agree here 16 years old Jacen loose with only one Yuuzhan Vong warrior.

[The Yuuzhan Vong held his amphistaff high and brought it down in a crushing blow aimed at Jacen’s head. The Jedi brought his lightsaber up to block, but the amphistaff went from rigid to fluid and, whiplike, wrapped itself around his right wrist. A quick yank pulled Jacen forward, off balance, and into the Yuuzhan Vong’s right knee. The knee caught him in the gut, doubling him over.
Jacen felt the warrior’s viselike grip close on the back of his neck, then he had his face plunged into the turgid water. Water boiled around his lightsaber, but the whip controlled the movement of that arm enough that he couldn’t strike.
The young man shunted away the panic rising in him and immediately summoned the Force. He reached out to pluck the Yuuzhan Vong off him—exactly as he had done countless times with his siblings or comrades when goofing around at the academy. He discovered the flaw with his strategy about the same time his lungs started to burn for lack of oxygen.
I can’t sense the Yuuzhan Vong through the Force. And now I can’t affect him.
It occurred to Jacen, as he sucked in the first mouthful of water, that he could use the Force to lift himself out of the water. The concentration necessary for that act died as his body gagged and coughed. The stale air in his lungs bubbled out, then his body reflexively tried to inhale and breathed in more water, which started him coughing and gagging yet again.
Oh, no, Jacen thought, as the world began to go black, it wasn’t a vision. Or a dream. Just a nightmare . . .]
Dark Tide: Onslaught

But 16 years old Ben beat countless Sith Sabers.
And even if you compare them as 14 years old Jacen and Jaina they fought with some teenage Dark Jedi (Zekk was the best of them after how long? Two months of studing?)
But Ben when he was 14 he beat Sith Lord Tahiri. Speaking about Tahiri. You wrote

{While Ben might be skilled, he’s dueled Tahiri whose best battle comes from dueling(and losing?) against Neophyte Leia.}

And loosing to Leia is shame? She is daughter of Chosen One with probably the same potential like Luke, veteran of countless wars and fully trained Knight. Tahiri didn't have neither her potential or experience. But even without this she (after only two years and without any training) will defeat Abeloth. But Ben defeat her. And fun fact is that you claimed that loosing to Wyellett (who doesn't have real feats becouse we know nothing about him before his duel with Baras) isn't shame but loosing to Leia who has real and serious feats, beats countless enemies is. And also we shouldn't focus to much on 14 years old Ben becouse Baras will not face this guy he will face much more experience and powerfull version of Ben.

3)Grievous and Nihilus
You wrote

{and Darth Nihilus couldn't kill Mandalore like he killed an entire world. And Darth Maul struggled against bounty hunters in TCW, and Grievous couldn't kill Padawan Ahsoka etc etc.}

I can agree that even great warriors can have weaker feats. But Zym example is different becouse we don't have another Zym's feats.

4) Zym
{The actions of one do not speak for the actions of all. Zym’s failure doesn’t = the failure of the entire Jedi of the TOR Era.}

Well not necessery. Fact that Zym was Grand Master means that he at least was consular level. And in The Jedi Council were the best from Jedi.

[Jedi Knights are superbly trained as warriors, and the members of the Jedi Council represent the best of the Order]
Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia

And he was Jedi master during Great Galactic War one of the hardest conflict in history. And we can also see that he was advanced Force user(it seems that he simultaneously use Force lightning (or Force judgement)) and alter environment.

But he loose. And to be clear this doesn't mean that all of Jedi Masters of this era were weak but Grand Masters generally were the most powerfull (or at least they were one of the most powerfull). And in this era great Jedi master were often slain by Bounty Hunters
https://youtu.be/i-iFY24hY4g 5:02

5) Baras vs Angral
Ok so lets analyze this duel.

As we see when Angral hit Baras lightsaber the lightsaber is knocked out and fall in direction just as Angral lightsaber pushed this. And after this fortunately to Baras he find reason to convince Angral to not being killed. And we know that even when Baras have hard times he can still save face.
https://youtu.be/X4YsHVrm0cU 3:58
But even if Baras intentionaly disarmed himself this mean that this duel was inconclude. And this is great problem becouse Baras didn't show his skill during this fight. So if this duel was inconclude that means that Baras could win or loose. So he can be greater or weaker than Angral. So this duel is worthless in terms of scalling.

6) Xedrix
{That is your opinion, which directly contradicts facts.}

Well this is not my opinion Xedrix was in Dark Council and he was pathetic.

[The blast of lightning had taken everything the old man had in reserve. In Xedrix the flame of the dark side had become the faintest flicker. When he saw that Scourge had survived, he’d realized his only chance of survival was to trick him into switching sides.]
Star Wars Revan

One Force lightning burn all his reserves. So in DC are weak Sith's and you can find there also absolute chad's like Malgus. And even if in DC was the most powerfull Sith Lords this doesn't mean that they were generally powerfull. For example in the end of Revan novel Meetra was the most powerfull Jedi(becouse rest were dead). But was she powerfull? Well not, she(and Scourge) were easily beaten by Nyriss.

[Dazed, he looked up just in time to see another bolt of violet lightning catch Meetra in the chest. Like Nyriss, she threw up a barrier to save herself from the worst of it, but she was still knocked from her feet.]
Star Wars Revan

So i didn't contradict anything. Plus ,,the most powerfull Sith Lords" is also generally vague terms for example in Jedi Council in theory were the wisest of Jedi.

[Sworn to protect and defend the Republic, the Council has existed in one form or another for millennia, comprised of the wisest Jedi Masters of every era.]
http://www.swtor-spy.com/codex/jedi-council/1653/

But this doesn't mean that all Jedi councular are wise. You can definitely find some stupid councular like Tol Braga

7) Scalling Wrath
{Indeed, even the Wrath considers Baras to be "their greatest enemy yet", surpassing the likes of the entity capable of overpowering the voice of the emperor, Sel-Makor, the Sith capable of changing the course war, Darth Ekkage, The Dark Councilor that went unpunished by the Emperor, Darth Vengean, the Jedi Superweapon Wylett, Champion of Light Nomen Karr, Greatest teacher of his time and legendary Jedi Yonlach and "Greater command of lightsaber combat." Yul-li.}

There is a problem with this list of characters. Do you know what this problem is? All of them have nothing to do with Ben. Fact that someone was powerfull in his era doesn't mean that he will be powerfull in another era. For example Valkorion was basicaly god during his era. He onehited another top tier charcters.
https://youtu.be/Fd9QFR-WyOg 2:50

[A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.
Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.]
Star Wars:Revan

to beat him countless people were needed.
https://youtu.be/_DDx6Kf0amI

But in NJO Era he will be tier one but you can clearly find more powerfull characters than him(Luke, Kyp Abeloth, maybe Jacen and Krayt)  and we can also see this on more direct examples for my claim for example Arden Lyn during her era tier one. But she was beaten by minor Dark Jedi during empire era.

[Like the Jedi, there were masters of teras kasi who used the Force malevolently. One was Arden Lyn. She, along with her Kashi Mer exile beau Xendor and his minions, wreaked havoc during The First Great Schism.When lyn was cornered by Jedi Master Awdrysta Pina, she used apowerful Kashi Mer talisman to annihilate him. Before dying, Pina used the horific tech-nique of mortichro to arrest lyn's body functions, stopping her heart. Through a freakish combination of events Lyn survived. Mysteriously reemerging mil-lennia later at the end of the Jedi Purge, Arden ran afoul of Jedi hunters. However, she handled herself well, severely injuring Inquisitor Tremayne and killing Inquisitor Darys before Grand Inquisitor Torbin cleaved her arm. Tremayne intended to kill her, but Torbin decided that Palpatine might find her rare martial arts skills useful.]
The Emperor's Pawns

To beat Volfe Karrko was send almost half of Jedi Council.

But was beaten by Quinlan Vos not even Jedi Master.


So you must show how being greater than this characters mean that Baras is greater than Ben.

{Additionally, The Wrath was Sith Warrior, meaning that they were highly combat-oriented.}

And what? Fact that Wrath was combat oriented doesn't mean that Ben isn't...And he clearly is .And ,,combat oriented" also generally means nothing becouse Scourge was also combat oriented and Nyriss wasn't... But Scourge loose. And there is also one problem with Baras. Why he didn't use Sith Spells against Wrath? He as Inquisitor

8) Scalling Baras

[Baras, despite his physicality contends quite well with the Wrath, his former apprentice, and the one who defeated his former nemesis Nomen Karr and Wyellet.]

Well not necessery to be clear he can still be great fighter but only becouse of Force without Force he will be just normal fatt guy. Ben is in good physical form and he also have Force(with much greater potential than Baras thanks to his blood). Plus   this is also hard to judge his dueling skills becouse we only can observe Baras skills with his duel Wrath and rest of his duels end quickly when both sides start talking or we only heard about this duels.

9) Oneness
{I hope you're familiar with the term "oneness." The state of being wherein a titular character enters a sort of Avatar-state that allows them to draw on the Force itself to empower them in a way that detracts from their normal combative abilities and allows them to achieve god-level feats like sending a Force-wave capable of moving a Frigate.These states usually involve circumstances where the character finds themselves in fighting off insurmountable odds and leads them to this avatar-state. The implication here being that this is not the level that the character usually operates at normally. So while this is impressive, this level of oneness won't come into play here. My apologies, friend.}

Yes and we know what this circumstances are. He must... fell love.

[Ben opened himself to the Force completely, shielding himself from the Font of Power’s darkness by drawing its energies through the power of all he loved in the galaxy, through his faith in the Jedi purpose and the promise of the future—through his confidence in Vestara and the sure knowledge that she would soon join him in the ranks of the Jedi Knights. The Force came pouring into Ben from all sides, irresistible and pure, a flood of light and purpose that no being in the galaxy could deny. He felt himself become the Force, a swirl of power and energy, and he focused all that he was on the approaching Keshiri, hitting her with a Force blast that would have knocked a frigate out of orbit.]
Fate of the Jedi Apocalypse

And none other circumstances. Contrary he was close to DS Nexus but he still used LS. And fact that this was oneness is also speculative. Source only claim that he open himself to Force and love. But even if this was oneness that mean only that Ben can achive oneness close to DS Nexus and after being starved, wounded and drugged(as i showed in my oppening). And without any special circumstances. And no one ever said oneness can be achived only one during live. For example Luke achived oneness three times.
And Revan even know how achive this when he need(and description is similar to what Ben did).

[This time, however, Revan was ready.
Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form.
There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward.]
Star Wars Revan

But even without oneness Ben have much greater feats in TK than Baras he was super precise constantly break Force shield of another Force users, throw columns and pushed on Sith to another.
But Baras he didn't have this type of feats he was simple user of TK.

10) Chain
{Marr & the council were so convinced of Baras' power as the voice of the emperor that when the Wrath confronted the Usurper  Darth Marr , along with many others, abstained from interfering for fear that Baras' was truly the Voice.}

Well they were just wrong. Simple as that. Baras was good manipulator and when he said that he is Voice no one want challange him. He basen his strength on manipulation not on pure strength. Contrary Darth Marr
[One of the longest-serving members of the Dark Council, Darth Marr is a terrifying warrior and a true believer in the Sith Code. In the early days of the war, he seized world after world for the expanding Empire and gained a reputation for personally leading charges against Republic defenders.]
Generally Darth Marr was guy who fight and Baras was guy who lead negotiation. And we have even allusion that Marr is the most powerfull from them all. Becouse Baras when he asked for help ask Marr first. And Baras few seconds earlier saw how powerfull Wrath is so this make sense that he asked the most powerfull not some weak guy becouse then both of them will be dead.
https://youtu.be/X4YsHVrm0cU 6:05
So Marr>Baras. And you didn't address rest of chain so as reminder Ben Skywalker> Vestara Khai> Gavar Khai> Darth Marr> Darth Baras. So my chain still is strong and is based.

Ok so this was my first rebbutal. Now is your turn. Good luck and may the Force be with my friend.

deleted due to forums messing/erasing all major arguments

Ok this take me longer that i thought but i have now a lot of exams do sorry for this delayed.

{No, it isn’t, we have a comparison between Ben and the Solo children. Given that they both have the same potential they should theoretically be on the same level when they’re around the same age. But they’re not. Anakin, Jacen, and Jaina are fighting Wars and become legendary among the order. Ben is half-trained and is Marr}

Well as i explained earlier even if Ben is below Jaina and Jacen this doesn't mean that he is below Baras becouse you didn't show that they are below Baras. Plus i gived many arguments that Ben is above Solo children(he beat many Sith's when Solo kids at the same year struggled with even one Yuuzhan Vong warrior).

{I addressed your chain by stating that Marr’s silence as the de facto leader indicates inferiority.}

No it's not Marr. Marr didn't challange Baras becouse he believed that Baras is Voice or he didn't have enough arguments that Baras isn't Voice not becouse he though that Baras is better. He just didn't want risk.

{There’s no evidence for Ben>Vestara barring a single instance where they weren’t seriously trying to kill each other?}

First winning in not lethal duel also indicate superiority. But they also have more fight and in none of them Vestara was a victor but Ben won two of them.

{While I can agree that Ben and Vestara are both > Gavar I draw a line at the idea that Marr and Baras are playing second fiddle to Gavar, Ben and Vestara.}

And this is all i need. If Ben is better than Gavar he is better than Baras.

{Especially when I’ve presented such a thorough examination of Baras’ abilities, strengths, and accolades.}

And Gavar have much greater feats with Luke. As i showed earlier he two times released himself from GM Luke Force attack(could you imagine Baras releasing himself from Valkorion(who is much weaker than Luke) Force attack?).

So to conclude this response.
-There is no evidence that Ben is weaker than Jacen and Jaina and even if this is true this means nothing.
- Baras still is weaker than Marr.
- And Marr is weaker than Gavar
- And as even my you admit Gavar is below Ben.
So Ben>Baras

Ok so this was last response now we go to conclusion part.
May the Force be with you.

Stanley wrote:1 About Ben as duellist.

You give us example of Ben training in Tempest. And you conclude that:

This is problematic becouse we don't talk about 40ABY Ben but 45ABY Ben. He had 4-5 years to grow.

No, it isn’t, we have a comparison between Ben and the Solo children. Given that they both have the same potential they should theoretically be on the same level when they’re around the same age. But they’re not. Anakin, Jacen, and Jaina are fighting Wars and become legendary among the order. Ben is half-trained and is below younglings at that age. The argument here isn’t that 40ABY Ben is weak and therefore 45ABY Ben is also weak. The argument here is that Ben objectively inexperienced and lacks the same level of refined skill of a Jaina Solo, the sheer pain tolerance of a Jacen Solo, and the raw power of an Anakin Solo. This argument is further reinforced in OOU statements:

SW: Databank wrote:Anakin's bold stance and daring nature made him into a popular figure among the Jedi and New Republic. Many privately whispered that he would someday take Luke Skywalker's place as the most powerful Jedi.

Indeed, it’s similarly supported by IU statements made by Luke.

FOTJ wrote:"Good." Anakin's expression grew serious. "Be much more careful than I was, Ben. Learn from my mistakes."

"I have-not from your mistakes, I mean, but from your example." Ben glanced over and, seeing that his father looked like he had recovered his composure, he added, "You're a legend, Anakin. Your sacrifice saved the Jedi. There hasn't been another Jedi Knight as strong as you since."

Anakin scowled, then looked back to Luke. "You must be going soft on them."

Luke smiled, but shook his head. "Not at all. Ben is right." He squatted down so that he could be closer to Anakin's face. "I have high hopes for Ben, but there hasn't been a Jedi Knight like you again. Losing you was as great a loss to the Order as it was to your family."

Argue hyperbole all you want, but it remains a fact that Ben stays playing second fiddle to the Solos.

Where does Baras come into this? Well, the truth lies in his strength to force the entire Dark Council to submit to him as the Voice of the Emperor. The implication is that he is strong enough in their eyes to be considered a vessel for the Emperor. Think about that for a moment, he forced the most powerful Sith in the empire to bend the knee and none of them thought to question his claim? That alone should give you an indication of how powerful Baras is.

People just can grow and change. Also compare Luke in ANH or in RotJ(and Ben have more time to grow than Luke between this movies). Fast growth of power is possible(Jaden Korr Anakin Corran Horn Kueller Kyp Durron). Even Hero of Tython. In 3643BBY he was padawan but in 3640 BBY he beat Vitiate. So if this guys can growth so quickly why not Ben? Especialy that none of them have so great Force potential(except Anakin and Kyp of course). And as we saw he really train a lot and grow in strength.

My point has nothing to do with growth but rather it has to do with comparing the Skywalker/Solo children in battle and their difference in skill despite having the same potential.

So between this fight with Luke Ben spend ,, thousands of hours of practice". And as i bring in my opening even Sith admit that he was powerfull. And i remind you that Ben in Tempest fought against Luke Skywalker the most powerfull Jedi ever while he was only padawan. Imagine what would happend if Baras want force Vitiate to stand from his throne? Becouse this was challange that Ben here faced.

Yet, Luke states that he's faced Rontos(I.e younglings) better than ben. Moreover, we know that if we were to seriously pit Ben against Luke, the victor will always be Luke. To your point about Baras and Vitiate we KNOW what happened to the Emperor when he stood face to face with Baras, he was manipulated and summarily imprisoned by Baras. The Emperor would not have sent the Wrath and the Hands if he did not deem Baras a threat.

Well even if 14 years old Jacen and Jaina are better than 13 years old Ben that doesn't mean that 18 years old Ben is weaker than Baras. But i also don't agree here 16 years old Jacen loose with only one Yuuzhan Vong warrior.

You have Kyp Durron, one of Luke’s most powerful Jedi, and Anakin Solo, another Powerful Jedi all struggling against warriors.

NJO: Dark Tide wrote:The Yuuzhan Vong had made a solid drive at the center of the Jedi formation. Kyp Durron and Wurth Skidder, both bleeding from numerous cuts, faced four of the warriors. Beyond them, coming down the walkway, Anakin had stopped at the top of a small rise. He'd set Daeshara'cor down and, with two lightsabers, was holding off a knot of the reptoids.

But 16 years old Ben beat countless Sith Sabers.

Countless? Featless Sith Sabers comparable to the average Jedi Knight is not impressive.  Baras was contending with Angral, besting Nomen Karr, and was held in high regard by his former student who had faced being of great power. Ben’s gonna need more than Sith Sabres

And even if you compare them as 14 years old Jacen and Jaina they fought with some teenage Dark Jedi (Zekk was the best of them after how long? Two months of studing?)

The point is Jaina, Jacen and Anakin have the experience to possibly take on Baras in certain cases or defeat him in Jacen/Caedus case. Ben is lacking it significantly.

But Ben when he was 14 he beat Sith Lord Tahiri. Speaking about Tahiri. You wrote

He didn’t beat her bro.

spun toward the hand, bringing an arm up and smashing his elbow into the side of her head. He started to tell her she talked too much, then heard the snap-hiss of an igniting lightsaber and realized he had just made the same mistake.

LOTJ wrote: A line of scalding pain erupted across his lower back, and he saw the bright glow of Tahiri's blade tip shining beside and a little behind him. When his body did not fall to the plaza deck in two pieces, he guessed that he was still alive and continued his spin, bringing his hand around in a reverse knife-hand strike that would have caught her just below the ear and almost certainly knocked her unconscious-had she not blocked.
As Ben's head snapped back, he caught a glimpse of scarred brow and blond hair, then felt his teeth biting through his tongue and his feet flying out from beneath him and realized Tahiri had caught him beneath the chin with a fist or an elbow or a hydraulic hammer, and it hardly mattered which because all he could feel was the inescapable darkness of a black hole drawing him down into the singularity of unconsciousness, into helplessness, defeat, and death.
Ben refused to go. He lashed out in the Force, grabbing at the last place he had seen Tahiri, pulling with all his might and feeling:feeling something give, feeling something like legs or ankles or feet come flying toward him, then hearing Tahiri scream in anger or pain or maybe just surprise.
A sharp clang echoed through the plaza decking as her armor hit, and the darkness started to retreat from Ben's head. He sensed Tahiri lying at his feet, just as flat on the deck as he was. She swore, profaning Ben's dead mother and promising to make him pay for making this so hard, then he saw his lightsaber lying on the durasteel not far from his hand-surrounded by a dozen pairs of black boots, but still within his Force grasp.
Ben reached out in the Force. Half a dozen troopers cried out in astonishment as the weapon banged off their boots, spinning and tumbling through the thicket of shins and ankles to arrive in his hand upside down, with the emitter nozzle pointed straight into his eye.
Tahiri's voice sounded from a meter beyond his feet. "I've had it with this kreetle!"
Ben flipped the lightsaber around and sat up. Tahiri was sitting up now, too, looking straight toward him. Her face was slimmer and more lined than he remembered it, but still as beautiful as ever, framed by a halo of flowing golden hair and marred only by the three diagonal scars on her brow and the fury in her eyes.
"Put him out," Tahiri ordered. "Now!"
Ben ignited his lightsaber, and that was when he saw-finally-the black wall of GAG troopers arrayed around him in a ring, all pointing blaster rifles in his direction. He gave himself over to the Force and felt himself springing to his feet, his blade moving to block, then heard it bat onetwothree blaster bolts aside before a flurry of hot punches caught him square in the back. His body exploded into paralyzing pain, and the electric darkness rose up to swallow him again.

Tahiri nearly killed him, and Ben pulled some TK to try and bring her down with him. So no, 14yo Ben lost the first time.  What you’re forgetting to include is that Tahiri was hit with a grenade and therefore injured as described in the novel.

FOTJ: Invincible wrote:
Ben jumped up and began to fire-not at Tahiri, but at the baradium warhead, forcing her to dive into position to protect the bomb. Taryn sent both grenades flying across the shaft just as Tahiri dropped into a cartwheel. The Hapan whooped in delight as the maneuver carried Tahiri past the warhead-and out of position to defend the troopers dragging it forward.
The grenades detonated to either side of the litter, shredding the stormtroopers' armor and hurling their torn bodies aside. Tahiri was caught by the shock wave and hurled out of sight into the trees. The warhead dropped to the ground unharmed.
"Good job." Taryn took her blaster rifle back and clambered over the log. "Now let's go finish-"
She let the sentence drop and opened fire into the woods. Ben snatched up his lightsaber and jumped over the log, then saw Tahiri charging back out of the trees, bloody and battered but still swatting Taryn's blaster bolts back at her. He activated his own lightsaber and stepped forward to defend the Hapan-then watched in amazement as Tahiri deactivated her lightsaber and launched herself in a high arc toward the shaft, one hand stretching toward the warhead.
"Uh-oh." Ben opened himself to the Force and reached out for the warhead, grasping for it with his mind:saw it rising off its broken litter, starting to float toward the shaft. "Blast!"
He raced forward, gathering himself to spring, and heard Taryn calling behind him.
"Ben? Ben, wait. No!"
But Ben was already somersaulting after Tahiri, dropping down into the shaft above her. As they fell, she whirled around and brought her blade up, slashing at his neck-but not quickly enough to prevent him from blocking. He countered with a snap-kick to the spine that drew a pained grunt and sent her sailing into the wall.
Still falling, she came tumbling back at him, double-slashing at his midsection, then planting a boot in his ribs that drove the wind from his lungs and sent him slamming into the rocky wall. He tumbled out of control for an instant, plummeting through the darkness, then used the Force to bring himself under control.
How deep was this hole?
Tahiri's blade came weaving at him out of the murk, and Ben realized he had lost his night-vision goggles. He blocked, blocked again, then realized he had left his stomach wide open:and still managed to get his blade down a split second before Tahiri pressed her advantage.
Gasping in relief-she'd had him, but she had been too slow again-he kicked off her hip and hit the wall behind him, then used the Force to stick himself against it, hard. It was a hot, painful way to slow his descent, but it was better than the alternative.
Ben saw a glow above him and looked up to see Tahiri doing the same thing on the opposite side of the shaft, a dark figure behind a bright blade, glaring down at him with bright eyes. He pressed harder, slowing his descent more so she would not have the altitude advantage-then heard a loud splash below as the warhead reached the bottom.
Water. Great.
Tahiri pushed away from the wall, dropping toward him behind a wild cyclone of kicking boots and slashing blade.
It was a foolish attack. All Ben had to do was guard high, then parry and take her legs off at the knees. He raised his blade to do just that-then finally realized what he was seeing and parried without countering.

Tahiri dropped past, her face not showing relief, but screwed into a mask of surprise and rage, and Ben realized that she really didn't want to kill him. Maybe she didn't even want to survive.
She splashed into the water, then screamed and went silent.
Ben hit half a second later, letting out his own scream as his knees were driven up to his chin. Cold, dark water poured over his head and began to rush down his throat. He coughed into the water, sucked in more water, and finally regained control of his reflexes and closed his mouth.
There was water in his ears, and he could feel his hair swirling around him, but he had no idea how far under he was. He looked up and saw steam rising past the tip of his lightsaber, so he knew he couldn't be that deep. So why wasn't he rising to the surface?
Ben tried to kick himself up-and immediately realized the problem. All that sandy soil that he had seen dropping into the sinkhole had to go somewhere, and now he was buried to the waist in it. Still fighting not to cough and gulp down more water, he grabbed the slick rock beside him, wiggling his legs and trying to drag himself forward, slowly opening a cavity around his hips.
After a few seconds, Ben managed to pull himself free and half scramble, half float to the surface-where it took him a few more seconds to realize that only about half of the gasping and coughing he heard was his own. He turned and found the silhouette of Tahiri's head and shoulders about three meters away, her lightsaber between them but not attacking, her free hand stretched toward a line of lights blinking in the distinctive three-red-two-yellow-one-green pattern of the baradium warhead.
"Tahiri, you don't want to do that." Ben tried to stand and immediately sank back to his knees in the wet tailings. "I know you don't, because you're no better suited to being a Sith apprentice than I was."
Tahiri glanced over, but kept her hand stretched toward the warhead. "Stay out of it, Ben." Her face was plunged into shadow, but he could still see her hair and eyes, both gleaming silver in the blade light reflecting off the water. "You don't have to get hurt."
"See? That's what I mean." Ben gave up trying to stand and simply knelt, using his shins to spread his weight across the wet pile. "If you were Sith material, you wouldn't care whether I got hurt. You wouldn't have gotten so mad when you killed Shevu."
"I don't like killing anyone, Ben," Tahiri said. She switched her free hand to her lightsaber, so that now she was holding it in a powerful two-handed grip. "That doesn't mean I ever hesitate."
Ben snorted. "You're not even a good liar." He started to knee-walk toward the warhead. "I'd have thought Caedus would have taught you that much."
Tahiri held her blade in front of Ben's chest. "I'm not lying, Ben."
"Then you'll have to prove it," Ben said. He brought his own blade up and pressed it against Tahiri's, forcing it aside. "I'm going to go over there to take the detonator charge out of that warhead. There's only one way to stop me-and you won't do it."
Tahiri switched off her lightsaber-then switched it back on so fast that Ben barely had time to lean out of the way before the blade extended where his throat had been a moment before. But the follow-through never came, and Ben's head remained firmly attached to his shoulders.
"Close-I'll give you that." The way Ben's heart was hammering, he felt like he might die of fear even if Tahiri didn't kill him-but he was willing to take that chance. He leaned around the blade and started knee-walking toward the warhead again. "But not close enough. When you come back to the Order, we'll get Uncle Han to teach you a few things about bluffing."
Tahiri sighed, then switched off her blade. "I'm not coming back to the Order, Ben."
The tension left Ben's body so fast that his hands began to shake uncontrollably. She was giving up.
"No? Then what are you going to do? Become some kind of bounty hunter?" Ben reached the warhead and began to dig it out. "Because you know Caedus isn't going to take you back."
"Yeah, but I'm done with him," she said bitterly. "I'm done with all Solos."

So a bloodied, conflicted, suicidal Tahiri nearly kills Ben but doesn’t. By contrast, we see an earlier duel were a fresh, resolute, and calm Tahiri is able to almost one-shot Ben.

I have to admit I was willing to concede this point luckily I’m a very thorough person.

And loosing to Leia is shame? She is daughter of Chosen One with probably the same potential like Luke, veteran of countless wars and fully trained Knight. Tahiri didn't have neither her potential or experience. But even without this she (after only two years and without any training) will defeat Abeloth. But Ben defeat her.

Apologies, are you saying Tahiri defeated Abeloth or that Ben defeated Abeloth? Some elaboration is required.

And fun fact is that you claimed that loosing to Wyellett (who doesn't have real feats becouse we know nothing about him before his duel with Baras)

This is what we know of Wyellet

SWTOR:Codex wrote:Jedi Master Wyellett was one of the great Jedi heroes of the last war. Deeply concerned with the preservation of life and more interested in communing with the Force than in using his power as a weapon, he nonetheless proved himself in combat time and again. When his apprentice Xerender battled Darth Baras, Wyellett joined Xerender and sought to redeem the Sith; failing, Wyellett seized Baras's lightsaber and chose to use it as his own, a symbol of darkness brought into the light.

SWTOR: Codex wrote:Wyellett's final heroic act was an act of self-sacrifice committed to save his Padawan Xerender and much of the Jedi Council from the legendary Starweird Queen; this resulted in his capture by the Empire. The Imperial starship that was transporting Wyellett was destroyed in the Battle of Hoth, and Master Wyellett has been believed dead all these years. In fact, Wyellett has been in a trance beneath the rubble of the fallen ship, psychically trying to reach out to his former pupil. Now, Wyellett has transcended the concerns of this galaxy and his powers are more realized than ever before.

Doesn’t matter that we know nothing before his duel with Baras what matters is the Jedi refer to him as a superweapon which indicates to us that he is very powerful. You can keep saying that Wyellet is featless, but the truth of the matter is that Wyellet is more powerful when he faced the Wrath than when he faced Baras, yet despite his strength, the Wrath considers Baras their greatest challenge. You can continue to ignore this all you like, but sooner or later you’ll have to accept reality.

isn't shame but loosing to Leia who has real and serious feats, beats countless enemies is. And also we shouldn't focus to much on 14 years old Ben becouse Baras will not face this guy he will face much more experience and powerfull version of Ben.

Yes, Baras won’t be facing 14-year-old Ben, but it’s important to clarify and highlight the events that occurred as they were written rather than omit them as clearly the fight with Tahiri is less impressive when all factors are accounted for.

I can agree that even great warriors can have weaker feats.

cool

But Zym example is different becouse we don't have another Zym's feats.

Well, not necessary. Fact that Zym was Grand Master means that he at least was consular level. And in The Jedi Council were the best from Jedi.

And he was Jedi master during Great Galactic War one of the hardest conflict in history. And we can also see that he was advanced Force user(it seems that he simultaneously use Force lightning (or Force judgement)) and alter environment.

But he loose. And to be clear this doesn't mean that all of Jedi Masters of this era were weak but Grand Masters generally were the most powerfull (or at least they were one of the most powerfull). And in this era great Jedi master were often slain by Bounty Hunters

Zym has no place in this conversation. You keep coming back to this but it’s a terribly weak argument that means nothing. I reiterate Zym is not a part of this debate, period.

As we see when Angral hit Baras lightsaber the lightsaber is knocked out and fall in direction just as Angral lightsaber pushed this. And after this fortunately to Baras he find reason to convince Angral to not being killed. And we know that even when Baras have hard times he can still save face.

Lol what? No, we literally see Baras block Angral’s strike in the first panel and then say “stop” and discard his own lightsaber.

But even if Baras intentionaly disarmed himself this mean that this duel was inconclude. And this is great problem becouse Baras didn't show his skill during this fight. So if this duel was inconclude that means that Baras could win or loose. So he can be greater or weaker than Angral. So this duel is worthless in terms of scalling.

Lol no, if a duel was inconclusive then it’s called… a draw which can indicate parity between combatants. We’ve seen Baras thoroughly force Angral to submit once before and now we see them stalemate so the idea that Baras and Angral are equals at the time of the comics is supported twice fold

Well this is not my opinion Xedrix was in Dark Council and he was pathetic.

The same blast of power that even Scourge admitted nearly killed him?

SW: Revam wrote:
Scourge broke into a run, charging at his enemy the instant he understood the nature of the trap. Xedrix had kept him talking while he gathered his power for a single, lethal attack.
Xedrix raised his left hand and unleashed his power in a storm of purple lightning. Scourge instinctively used the Force to throw up an invisible barrier to shield himself. The bolts arced through the air, ripping through the shield to engulf Scourge in electric agony.
He screamed, his voice rising above the hiss and crackle of the fiery energy coursing through his veins. Every nerve in his body exploded in excruciating pain as the lightning seared his flesh, cooking him in his own armor. He fell to the floor, curled into himself, his skin blistered and burned. The whole thing had taken only a few seconds.

—-------------
But was it? Nyriss had convinced him he could kill Darth Xedrix, but a single burst of dark side lightning had nearly killed him instead. The only reason he was still alive was because Darth Xedrix was toying with him.
What if he’s not toying with me? Scourge suddenly wondered. What if he tried to kill me but failed

But that failing belongs Xedrix and isn’t indicative of the overall prowess of the Dark Council as a whole. Even then Xedrix’ blast is able to nearly kill Scourge so, your point is moot.

One Force lightning burn all his reserves. So in DC are weak Sith's and you can find there also absolute chad's like Malgus. And even if in DC was the most powerfull Sith Lords this doesn't mean that they were generally powerfull.

Again, we have several sources that I’ve provided to both IU and OOU that repeatedly state that the members of the Dark Council are the most powerful Sith in the Empire. While I can agree that they’re not the only powerful Sith empire seeing as we have Malgus, The Wrath, and Nox they are the exception, not the rule. Consider that in order for these beings to be on the same level as the DC or above they’ve had to either best a DC Member or in Malgus’ case go up against a strike team consisting of both the Wrath, Nox, the Champion of the Hunt, and Cipher 9. Regardless, the Dark Council remains composed of the strongest Sith in the Empire.

So i didn't contradict anything. Plus ,,the most powerfull Sith Lords" is also generally vague terms for example in Jedi Council in theory were the wisest of Jedi.

Perhaps, but when the subject in question is being repeatedly stated to be incredibly powerful then the quote delivers a clear picture of what we can expect from a DC  member.

There is a problem with this list of characters. Do you know what this problem is? All of them have nothing to do with Ben

Yeah, they have to do with Baras…which is the reason for this debate?

Fact that someone was powerfull in his era doesn't mean that he will be powerfull in another era. For example Valkorion was basicaly god during his era. He onehited another top tier charcters.

to beat him countless people were needed.

Valkorion has literally devoured planets and had to be taken down by the combined strength of the Jedi and Sith….He is powerful no matter what era you drop him in

But in NJO Era he will be tier one but you can clearly find more powerfull characters than him(Luke, Kyp Abeloth, maybe Jacen and Krayt)

Now you’re taking the piss

 and we can also see this on more direct examples for my claim for example Arden Lyn during her era tier one. But she was beaten by minor Dark Jedi during empire era.

That is an isolated incident involving Arden not Baras. Look at Celeste Morne who’s from the KOTOR era and yet manages to compete with Luke Skywalker, Vader, and Krayt. This is a gross over-simplification of things that can’t be summarized by making a comparison to someone who doesn’t even come from the same era as Baras.

To beat Volfe Karrko was send almost half of Jedi Council.


But was beaten by Quinlan Vos not even Jedi Master.

That doesn’t matter lmao this is in no way detrimental to my argument. Keep your focus on the main argument. Comparisons like these have no weight in this debate.

So you must show how being greater than this characters mean that Baras is greater than Ben.

I have, you’re simply ignoring the evidence already presented.

And what? Fact that Wrath was combat oriented doesn't mean that Ben isn't...And he clearly is .

You’re missing the point bro. The Wrath is so tremendously skilled that they are the embodiment of the dark side:

SWTOR wrote:Champion of the Dark Side
An unstoppable force of darkness, the Sith Warrior is entrusted with the task of destroying the Empire’s enemies and enforcing Sith domination across the galaxy. The Warrior channels the destructive emotions of fear, anger, and hatred to purge weakness from body and mind and become a being of pure, brutal efficiency.
Destined to eradicate the incompetent chaos created by the Jedi, the Sith seek to rule the galaxy through power and intimidation. The armies of the Sith Empire are trained to accomplish this task, but they require the leadership of bold Sith Warriors—loyal and mighty overlords—who will drive them to conquest and victory.
These cold-blooded conquerors waste no time with cunning manipulations and carefully-crafted plans. Sith Warriors crush their opponents and stride toward their goals with dreadful determination, leaving ruin and annihilation in their wake. Emanating awe and terror at every step, they accept nothing but absolute obedience from their followers. In turn, Sith Warriors can serve as loyal subjects to their own dark masters, often surprising enemies and allies with their rigorous honor and perfect discipline.

If the Wrath is a Juggernaught then they are nearly invincible.

SWTOR wrote:Tank - Immortal Juggernauts embrace the dark side of the Force to become nearly invincible, soaking up damage in defense of their allies.

Damage - Vengeance and Rage Juggernauts are capable of quickly tearing through enemies with a single swipe of their Lightsaber, causing massive damage all across the battlefiel

d.

As a Marauder, only a select few can stand in their way.

SWTOR wrote:
Damage - Annihilation, Carnage, and Fury Marauders attune themselves to the dark side and wield dual Lightsabers to deal damage in savage flurry few can withstand.

The Wrath is simply better trained, and more experienced than the likes of Ben and while the Wrath should have just slaughtered their master, Baras was able to contend with his apprentice in what was previously described as a furious engagement.

To clarify, I’m not saying that Ben isn’t combat-oriented, I believe he’s skilled. However, what I am saying is that Baras is substantially more well-trained than Ben and far more experienced as a combatant.

And ,,combat oriented" also generally means nothing becouse Scourge was also combat oriented and Nyriss wasn't... But Scourge loose.

Yes and that was Scourge’s failing, not the Wrath or Baras’

And there is also one problem with Baras. Why he didn't use Sith Spells against Wrath? He as Inquisitor

Ask the game developers.

Well not necessery to be clear he can still be great fighter but only becouse of Force without Force he will be just normal fatt guy.

Yeah…. A Sith and Jedi need the force to use all their abilities. What’s your point?

Ben is in good physical form and he also have Force(with much greater potential than Baras thanks to his blood).

I’ve countered this already. The Wrath wasn’t afforded any advantage by being in good condition and neither will Ben. Move on.

Plus   this is also hard to judge his dueling skills becouse we only can observe Baras skills with his duel Wrath and rest of his duels end quickly when both sides start talking or we only heard about this duels.

But we do know that he sent Nomen Karr running, he stalemated Angral(who is above Orgus Din), he stalemated Dar’nala and Satele and matches his former apprentice. Respectfully, I don’t care if you find it difficult to judge his dueling skills because you want to ignore what’s been presented to you, the fact is Baras more powerful than anything the Wrath had encountered up until that point.

Yes and we know what this circumstances are. He must... fell love.
And none other circumstances. Contrary he was close to DS Nexus but he still used LS. And fact that this was oneness is also speculative.

Not it isn’t speculative, the force is literally pouring onto him from all sides which is the main indicator that he’s drawing something beyond his normal means.

Source only claim that he open himself to Force and love. But even if this was oneness that mean only that Ben can achive oneness close to DS Nexus and after being starved, wounded and drugged(as i showed in my oppening). And without any special circumstances.

Stan, oneness comes in moments of extreme desperation in combatant, which Ben was in when he faced Abeloth. I grant you he was drugged, starved, and wounded which were the circumstances he had to be in for him to utilize oneness. However, in this scenario, he’s fresh and fine. Additionally, he’s not afforded those same circumstances(desperation, drugs, starvation, and wounds) that would grant him the ability to use the Force in that manner. Simply put, he won’t be achieving oneness because the triggers aren’t there to force him to draw on the force in such a manner.

And no one ever said oneness can be achived only one during live. For example Luke achived oneness three times.

No one said that lol

But even without oneness Ben have much greater feats in TK than Baras he was super precise constantly break Force shield of another Force users, throw columns and pushed on Sith to another.
But Baras he didn't have this type of feats he was simple user of TK.

If Baras remained unchallenged by the rest of the Dark Council then that means they feared his power. If Marr, the most powerful of the Dark Councillors refused to engage Baras then that indicates that Baras is as powerful as the Voice of the Emperor. If they could do nothing to Baras I don’t think Ben will be able to touch Baras with the Force.

Well they were just wrong. Simple as that.

so OOU+IU quotes supporting that Baras is powerful = wrong?

Because you say so? It doesn’t work that way, buddy.

Baras was good manipulator and when he said that he is Voice no one want challange him. He basen his strength on manipulation not on pure strength.

The Voice is the embodiment of the Emperor, meaning it has the strength of the Emperor.

SWTOR: Codex wrote:
For centuries, the Emperor's Voice has delivered the Sith leader's commandments to his servants. In fact, to converse with the Emperor's Voice is to have an audience with the Emperor himself, whose power and consciousness have been placed within the Voice's body.

Baras was impersonating the Voice openly which means what?

Since he’s claiming to be the Voice in front of all of the Dark Councillors he’s also claiming to have the strength of the Emperor. The Dark Council had previously been exposed to other voices that -as suggested by the text above-possess the same power as the Emperor  Curiously, no DC members question his claim and so the inference here is that the entirety of the Dark Council genuinely believes that Baras is as powerful as previous Voices.

So while I can respect that you may not find Baras impressive. Out of universe/In-Universe quotes suggest otherwise and supersede personal opinion.

Generally Darth Marr was guy who fight and Baras was guy who lead negotiation.

Which means what? Baras was still fighting the likes of Satele, Nomen Karr, and Wyellet.

And we have even allusion that Marr is the most powerfull from them all.

Yet Marr bent the knee to Baras? So Baras>Marr

Becouse Baras when he asked for help ask Marr first. And Baras few seconds earlier saw how powerfull Wrath is so this make sense that he asked the most powerfull not some weak guy becouse then both of them will be dead.

The fight is still described as a furious battle and moreover, the Wrath says the following

"if I am to die, it should be face to face with my greatest enemy."

They acknowledge that they may lose, and in another option, they state they are breathing as hard as Baras which indicates parity between the two.

So Marr>Baras. And you didn't address rest of chain so as reminder Ben Skywalker> Vestara Khai> Gavar Khai> Darth Marr> Darth Baras. So my chain still is strong and is based.

I addressed your chain by stating that Marr’s silence as the de facto leader is an indication of inferiority. The rest of your chain was unnecessarily convoluted and included characters that don’t pertain to our debate.

There’s no evidence for Ben/Vestara barring a single instance were they weren’t seriously trying to kill each other?

While i can agree that Ben and Vestara are both > Gavar i draw a line at the idea that Marr and Baras are playing second fiddle to Gavar, Ben and Vestara. Especially when I’ve presented such a thorough examination of Baras’ abilities, strength and accolades.


In closing. Baras is as powerful as the Emperor's Voice even after he's sabotaged by the Wrath. The Council of the most powerful Darths in the universe refuses to involve themselves in a duel between the Darth and his apprentice for fear that Baras may indeed be the Voice and the Wrath may indeed be the Emperor's enforcer. But the key takeaway is that they will not risk attacking Baras because they believe him to be hosting the Emperor's power which alone puts him miles away from Ben. Ben cannot win a saber duel because Baras himself is extremely talented with the blade and possesses enough skill to keep up with the legendary Wrath. Ben will not have an advantage in the force because that most certainly didn't help the Dark Council, and, Baras has power that is greater than the greatest sith Sorcerer of the TOR era who could conjure up city destroying storms. Simply put, Ben is out of his element here.

That said, thank you for your patience, for your assistance, and understanding. I enjoyed your response and I look forward to the finale.

This is my third post so i will jump right to debate...

{Given that they both have the same potential they should theoretically be on the same level when they’re around the same age}

Not necessery we have one little  suggestion that Ben have greater potential than Jaina.
[Kyp shook his head. “Sorry, but no,” he said. “Jaina is Han’s daughter just as much as Leia’s, and that means only one parent is a Force-user. Ben is the son of two parents who were both very strong in  the Force. No offense to Jaina, but Ben has Special Destiny written all over him.”]

TBH this is only in-universe speculation but still.

{The argument here is that Ben objectively inexperienced and lacks the same level of refined skill of a Jaina Solo, the sheer pain tolerance of a Jacen Solo, and the raw power of an Anakin Solo.}

Ben is weaker than Solo kids? Said by who? In universe or by some authors? Becouse in comparison Ben win. He beat 41ABY Tahiri (she was 29 but Ben 14/15) 27 ABY Tahiri was able to slain few YV warriors. But Jacen when he was 16 was beaten by only one YV warrior.

So 14 years old Ben> 29 years old Tahiri> 15 years old Tahiri> 16 years old Jacen.

{So a bloodied, conflicted, suicidal Tahiri nearly kills Ben but doesn’t. By contrast, we see an earlier duel were a fresh, resolute, and calm Tahiri is able to almost one-shot Ben.}

First there is no indication that she had real injures. And read once again their first fight despite geting two hits in the beginning he still ovepower her by Force. And was beat by ,,half a dozen troopers" not by Tahiri. And at that point he was chronologaly closer to 40 ABY Ben who was ,,weaker than Rontos" than to 45ABY who will face Baras.

{My point has nothing to do with growth but rather it has to do with comparing the Skywalker/Solo children in battle and their difference in skill despite having the same potential}

And i'm glad that you agreed with this becouse potential is really important and Ben have at least 5000 midichlorians more (i explained this in my first post). And i must remind that even if Ben is weaker than Solo kids he doesn't mean that he is weaker than Baras becouse you never showed that Solos are weaker than Baras.

(Yet, Luke states that he's faced Rontos(I.e younglings) better than ben.)
So once again i must remind basic chronology in 40 ABY Ben is inexperience. And Luke complain about that after this he train a lot and in 44ABY according to Luke he is good warrior.

[Desperate to know what had become of Ben, Luke reached out in the Force and felt the frightened, groggy presence of someone who had taken a head-shaking blow. He turned and found his son trapped against a wall, defending himself from Vestara’s fierce attack, an unrefined high–low–low– high pattern, which Ben was blocking only because of his strength in the Force and the reflexes drilled into him by thousands of hours of practice.]

So argument that Ben is inexperienced is just false becouse he spend at least 2000 hours of trainig(~83 days of training only training lightsaber). But judging Baras by fact that he is fat he didn't train a lot.

{Moreover, we know that if we were to seriously pit Ben against Luke, the victor will always be Luke. To your point about Baras and Vitiate we KNOW what happened to the Emperor when he stood face to face with Baras, he was manipulated and summarily imprisoned by Baras.}
Exactly Baras is perfect in manipulation not in fight. Fortunately for Ben this is not the scenerio. Plus he will not have Sel-Makor or something like that.

{Zym has no place in this conversation. You keep coming back to this but it’s a terribly weak argument that means nothing. I reiterate Zym is not a part of this debate, period.}

He isn't subject of this conversation directly but just like you use Solos i can use this kind of characters to showing avarage power level of this era.
{Lol no, if a duel was inconclusive then it’s called… a draw which can indicate parity between combatants}
No this mean only that combatants stoped figthing and doesn't mean that they were equal.

{The same blast of power that even Scourge admitted nearly killed him?}

After time when Xedrix have time to gather Force. Against opponent who didn't have time to prepare and was more into lightsaber than Force, on Force Nexus and after this he burned all his Force Power. Pathetic.

{Yeah, they have to do with Baras…which is the reason for this debate?}

Yes but using them means nothing becouse for example Ekkage can be better, weaker or equal to Ben until you prove that some of this guys is better than Ben your argument this argument means nothing.

{Yeah…. A Sith and Jedi need the force to use all their abilities. What’s your point?}

My point is simple Baras have only Force Ben have Force so he have advantage(minor but still).

{(To beat Volfe Karrko was send almost half of Jedi Council.
But was beaten by Quinlan Vos not even Jedi Master.)

That doesn’t matter lmao this is in no way detrimental to my argument. Keep your focus on the main argument. Comparisons like these have no weight in this debate.}

Well i used Volfe to show that if someone is the most powerfull Force User of his era this doesn't mean that he will be powerfull in different era and Volfe is good example of that.

{That is an isolated incident involving Arden not Baras. Look at Celeste Morne who’s from the KOTOR era and yet manages to compete with Luke Skywalker, Vader, and Krayt. This is a gross over-simplification of things that can’t be summarized by making a comparison to someone who doesn’t even come from the same era as Baras.}

Ok and what? I said only that certain eras aren't equal in terms of power which is true based on what i showed earlier but i didn't said which eras is the most powerfull yet so being the most powerfull in one era doesn't mean that you will be powerfull in other era. For example Darth Andeddu give Darth Wyyrlok fair fight. So there are basicaly three options one era can be weaker better or generally at the same level in terms of power level of Force users. So untill you show which of this option is the case your argument that Baras is more powerfull becouse he was in Dark Council so he was amongst the most powerfull during his era therefore he is more powerfull than Ben make sense only if era of Baras was more powerfull than NJO which isn't the that i will show you right now. But we actually can compare this two eras by compering the most powerfull beings and how great threat they posed to another beings of their eras. So Valkorion according to you(and i agree with you)...

{Valkorion has literally devoured planets and had to be taken down by the combined strength of the Jedi and Sith….He is powerful no matter what era you drop him in}

In Valkorion era as you said to beat him combined forces of Jedi and Sith and guy that were second in power(like Baras, Marr, Revan) to him were onehited (i give this examples earlier but as a reminder)
https://youtu.be/Fd9QFR-WyOg 2:50

So in TOR era no one could survived few seconds against Valkorion.

But in Legacy era the most powerfull is Luke Skywalker (who is more powerfull than Valkorion as i showed earlier post) but he often faced real threats. For example Luke couldn't ovepower Gavar Khai(as i showed earlier). So Gavar Khai is closer to Luke than Baras to Valk and Ben is better than Gavar. Here you have nice ilustrasion of what i mean.



{Yet Marr bent the knee to Baras? So Baras>Marr}
Becouse he was lied to plus at this time Baras has help of Entity(in this fight not) if they faced each other he will be killed(i will show this later).

{Stan, oneness comes in moments of extreme desperation in combatant,}
Like figth with Sith Lord?

{I grant you he was drugged, starved, and wounded which were the circumstances he had to be in for him to utilize oneness.}
Plus close DS Nexus but he opened himself to LS.

{However, in this scenario, he’s fresh and fine. Additionally, he’s not afforded those same circumstances(desperation, drugs, starvation, and wounds) that would grant him the ability to use the Force in that manner. Simply put, he won’t be achieving oneness because the triggers aren’t there to force him to draw on the force in such a manner.}

No just no. First there isn't evidence that Ben can achieve oneness only in these circumstances(desperation, drugs, starvation and wouds). He also can be in two of this circumstances (desperation and wounds) in this fight. But we know in which circumstances he can achieve oneness he just must...feel love.

[Ben opened himself to the Force completely, shielding himself from the Font of Power’s darkness by drawing its energies through the power of all he loved in the galaxy, through his faith in the Jedi purpose and the promise of the future—through his confidence in Vestara and the sure knowledge that she would soon join him in the ranks of the Jedi Knights.]

{so OOU+IU quotes supporting that Baras is powerful = wrong?}

So i give you two quotes

[Entrusted by the Emperor and the Dark Council to oversee the negotiations leading to the Treaty of Coruscant, Darth Baras has long held sway within the highest layers of the Sith Order. His power base of secret spies and well-placed minions stretches across the galaxy, enabling him to orchestrate and manipulate events from the shadows.He is a man of great vision, and it is even said that the Force grants him glimpses of disturbances yet to come. Methodical and calculating, Baras is a true master of the dark arts, and some say the future of the Empire.]

Baras is great as manipulator and in Dark Arts(but not necessery in combat scenerio becouse he didn't used any spels during his fight with Wrath but he was good in torturing plus with artefacts).
https://youtu.be/9JHdaqcln1w

But Marr was fearsome warrior

{One of the longest-serving members of the Dark Council, Darth Marr is a terrifying warrior and a true believer in the Sith Code. In the early days of the war, he seized world after world for the expanding Empire and gained a reputation for personally leading charges against Republic defenders. However, once the Empire had established its power and the war began to drag on, Marr found fewer opportunities to leave the Dark Council chambers and directly engage in the fray–a situation that embittered the Sith Lord.Marr’s creed is “Life is the enemy. Death is our solace.” He believes in strife and the glory of conflict, and rumors among his rivals claim that he sees his own death approaching. True or not, Marr carries out his duties with unresigned fury and determination.With his humanity long forgotten and his face unseen, Marr’s inner thoughts are impossible to determine. But his desire to leave a strong Empire behind him is unquestioned, and his abilities are second to none.}

So Marr>Baras. Therefore Ben>Baras.

I was assigned to judge this debate, and there was such a myriad of arguments that I do not have the patience to go over them individually. However, I will still analyze the debate:

Both Fated and Stanley don't go for a direct scaling chain for their argumentation, instead opting for holistic standing (ie. my guy can defeat more Sith than your guy). On this front, Fated establishes that Darth Baras defeated a Jedi Superweapon and a Champion of the Light while also being a member of the dark council, as well as alluding to parity with Vitiate and Sel Makor. Stanley establishes that Ben Skywalker can take on Sith Sabers which he establishes as equal to Jedi Knights. In the battle of holistics, as set up in the debate, Fated starts with the better premise. There was a nice bit of "Oneness Ben Skywalker" scaling which I would have liked to see pushed harder by Stanley.

They then try dismantling each other's points, Fated defending well enough while Stanley had to retract from what little he had due to overextension.

While I believe neither contestant necessarily represented their characters as well as they could've, Fated's argument stands much stronger in the end.

Fated Xtasy wins.

Alright. I was asked to judge this. I'll keep things brief since there isn't much to say. Here's my thoughts on the main points argued here:

Saber skill: Fated argued that since Baras fought dudes within his era that were impressive, he's better than Ben since Ben needed help in a lot of his fights. Stanley argued that Ben had better teachers and better feats. There's more to it but that's the basics. I didn't really find either side's case to be all that compelling and I think both sides could have properly countered the other better. That said, this point will go to Fated. Found his counters to be more convincing and at least he debunked a couple of feats.
Physique: Not much to say here lol. Stanley's arguments for Ben being better in this aspect were more convincing. However, Fated's arguments for that "advantage" being moot were far more convincing so while this point goes to Stanley, it doesn't mean much.
Power: Much of what I said in the saber section applies here. Stanley's point on Gavar>Marr wasn't very convincing. Also Stanley didn't properly explain why Font Ben~The Ben he's using for this debate. Didn't find it convincing. I feel if he explained that better, he could have a massive edge. I liked Fated's points on Baras vs Marr. Point here goes to Fated. Though I feel he could have addressed some of the points way more efficiently.
Equipment: I wish Fated argued more against this point. It's not the most important thing but there's some fun blaster related arguments to be had. I'll give this point to Stanley.
Comparing Eras: Feel like Stanley's points here were wonky. The infamous Zym scaling. Fated was able to counter this well enough.

There's more to be said but I don't wanna spend more time on this. Both sides kinda disappointed me here. There was some missed potential. But at the end of the day, the points in Fated's favor are more important than the one in Stanley's so Fated gets my vote. However, I think both sides made some absurdly stupid arguments. (Ronto scaling, Gavar being close to Luke, etc, etc.

If you have any questions, feel free to DM me. I'll answer what I can. However, bear in mind that my judgment is final and won't change. Even if you somehow convince me that I'm wrong, the vote will be unchanged.

As a final note: Don't take my mean comments personally. (Or do if it motivates you to be better. idk) It's not personal. These are just my thoughts on your arguments. I'm sure both of you can do far better.