PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo)

POWER counter, proving yourself one of the best of the new generation of debaters once again

Can't wait to debunk it though

In this post I intend to start with pure counters, although some parts will not be replied to as they will be discussed in the second part. Enjoy the read!

RNG wrote:While this is all impressive, it doesn't really amount to much within a 1v1 (2v1 in our case) deathmatch. It does speak highly for Rancisis that he's the one trusted to judge Vos, but it's all moot point at the end of the day as it doesn't have much bearing on combative ability. Clout within the order only gets you so far.

So you would not say that the highest-ranking member of the Order is the strongest (Yoda)? Note: you specifically provided supremacy quotes for him. And you would not put the second-highest-ranking member of the order second (Mace)? While you might pull the ROTS Anakin card, that would contradict your earlier Yoda supremacy quotes, an I’d have to point out that the Chosen One is a clear exception. Clout in the order comes from understanding and knowledge of the force, both of which are applicable to combat, as it improves their ability to wield or counter it.

RNG wrote:We wouldn't place the likes of Tionne or Kenth Hamner highly just because they have important positions within the order. Would we?

False equivalency. Luke’s order is entirely different from the Clone Wars jedi order. What's especially amusing is that you bring up Tionne as a counter, when less than a month ago, you specifically said:

RNG wrote:Even with that aside, Tionne does not represent the baseline for power or skill for the rank of Master. She was a special case. Sure, she isn't strong with the Force. But her teaching abilities surpass even that of Luke's. Hell, she took over the administration of the Academy along with Kam from Luke. So she has a certain type of talent to warrant a high rank.

Tionne is a “special case”, who was promoted to a high rank specifically because “her teaching abilities surpass even that of Luke’s”. And while you might claim your opinion has since changed, you also provided evidence for it:



And that is not an opinion you can change your mind on later now is it ;). Its official evidence.

RNG wrote:In terms of authority to make decisions, sure. Hell, I'm okay with granting that this extends to power level supremacy over Tiin too. Though it's not that important, as I'll get into soon.

Seniority in the order is not something that restricts itself to certain events. Yoda and Mace aren’t lesser in seniority than other jedi masters when it comes to specific events, even if another might be better suited to decide there (they can at most, give them permission to make decisions or be more likely to listen to them). Oppo is a senior member above Tiin, not just when it comes to a trial.

RNG wrote:I won't say Mace chooses to spar with Tiin because it'd be an easy win for him but......

Based of you to bring up the game in which Plo Koon beats Yoda in a spar! Guess that means that either Yoda’s supremacy quotes means nothing (so Oppo is free of them) or that beating Yoda in a spar is not indicative of supremacy over him, as you claim that HoC’s duel with him is!

The Clone Wars - Lightsaber Duels wrote:"I heard you're one of the only jedi to have ever beaten Yoda in a spar"

Note that this is meaningless lowball anyways, as we have directly seen Tiin match Mace in dueling:

RNG wrote:Damn..... the Kcaj disrespect on display here :_(

Not disrespect, just massively sub Oppo ;)

RNG wrote:Jokes aside, this is cool and all but all it does is raise Kenobi. Doesn't really raise Oppo. And as I said earlier, it's more a matter of Rancisis having clout than actual power levels or combative effectiveness.

Well… I am surprised you are arguing that ROTS Kenobi being compared to Oppo raises Kenobi. So you hold Oppo > or = ROTS Kenobi; someone who unlike HoC beat MFV (more on that later). I agree with Oppo > Kenobi though, and since we both do concession accepted

As for clout, look at my former point.

RNG wrote:My intent was moreso to say that Malacia is meant to stop confrontations before they happen.

So exactly like the threat of a lightsaber. As my previous quote said: “the best blades are kept in their sheats”. Any combative ability of jedi is first and foremost means of keeping the peace, not of causing conflict. This however in no way, shape or form implies they aren’t combat-applicable, thats conjecture.

RNG wrote:And I don't see it being used to great effectiveness within lightsaber duels.

You being blind is none of my concern. You have to prove why it can’t be used in lightsaber duels. And so far you have provided no evidence.

RNG wrote:The use of "opponents" and "powerful defense" doesn't really preclude the notion of it being used to end fights before they start.

Something I can’t help but noting is that, while this is a huge reach from yourself, what prevents Oppo from using it to end this fight before it starts as well? If he uses malacia instantly and it downs HoC before he can even draw his saber, that still would be a perfectly legitimate win.

RNG wrote: Though even then, I'm more than happy to grant that it can be used combatively.

With this I already want to make note we should dismiss every time RNG said its not combat-applicable, as he has now admitted it is. Its also outright stated in the Encyclopedia, which is something you apparently didn’t reply to, probably since you didn’t want to have to say “I concede the point”

RNG wrote:Against non force users. Since they're the only ones it's documented as being used against.

Except for Sidious killing himself with it in DE, Force Storms were only ever used against nonforceusers. If we excluded Sidious killing himself, would you say its fair to argue that if Sidious sent a force storm on a jedi padawan, the storm would harmlessly glide over the padawan’s force defence? When Naga Sadow caused solar flares to destroy the ships chasing him, he only hit nonforceusers. Would you say that with a force shield, any jedi could easily block solar flares hitting them directly?

Here’s the thing: Jedi are not superheroes with superpowers. They’re regular humans (except for the alien ones) who can call upon space-magic. Which means that any forcepower that can affect a nonforceuser, can affect a forceuser. Now forceusers can use their own abilities to counter those abilities that get used at them, but its not immunity, and its not some kind of a video game where “HoC casts force shield; he’s immune to the force”. First of, a force shield is a conscious effort: HoC uses a force shield? Then he’s drawing focus and power on protecting himself. Focus and power that gets drained from his own offensive.

Second; a force shield does not just outright make you immune to the force abilities of another. Dooku for example explains there’s ways to circumvent jedi training:



And a forcepower such as Malacia, one that is esoteric, and which functions by turning an opponent’s equilibrium, their own strength and calm, against themselves, sounds like a perfect anti-jedi ability.

RNG wrote:Yeah. it's "difficult" to use against non force users. Just imagine how much harder it'd be to use it against a force user within a fast paced lightsaber duel.

This is blatantly providing misinformation. The quote never mentioned nonforceusers. Its a “difficult discipline”, which just means that its harder to learn, which is why many prefered to use other powers. This does however not mean that somehow the ability takes greater effort to perform, and nowhere does it say its difficult in the context of fighting opponents.

And the argument that its harder to use against a forceuser: that applies to everything. Its more difficult to use a force push against someone who can also force push. Its more difficult to use a lightsaber against someone with a lightsaber. Its more difficult to use a blaster on a forceuser than a nonforceuser. But none of this prevents it being capable of being used against them. And malachia, an ability specifically intended to use the strength and equilibrium of their opponent and turn it against them, sounds like an ability that specifically would be more useful the tougher the opposition.

RNG wrote:That will not be a problem for the Hero as his potent barrier can just sense the ability and block it.

Lots of assumptions here alone. Proof that he has a particularily potent barrier? Proof that he has sufficient force sense to sense the ability being used? Proof that he has either ability? In the game (the only source to ever include HoC), he only has force push, force heal and lightsaber throw. Not force barrier or force sense. You also can’t say “game mechanics”, as you were the first to argue for it being a proper demonstration of his abilities:

RNG wrote:We already know he defeated TPM Maul extremely early on in his career. But did you know that he did so before he even knew how to use TK combatively?

So would like to see sources for his “potent barrier”, how he can just “sense” Malachia, of how he can “block it” with seemingly no effort, and of how he has any of these abilities.

RNG wrote:Malacia, while an extremely potent ability, isn't nearly that tier of hax.

Proof that it isn’t? In the quotes I’ve posted its called “A powerful defense”, it induces “powerful dizziness and nausea”, a “potent martial art”, and is “powerful when employed properly”. Everything suggests its an extremely powerful ability (you yourself said its “an extremely potent ability”), yet you just dismiss it by saying its not that tier of hax. Where’s your proof? Where’s the argument? You just try to dismiss Malachia but never give evidence for why its not a strong ability.

RNG wrote:Otherwise, Jedi wouldn't resort to simple mind tricks and force pushes when an ability that can insta-ragdoll force users exists.

So you’re going to specifically ignore the explicit reason for why other abilities are favoured? Malachia is as you said (but in an entirely wrong context), “difficult” to learn, and most jedi in the prequel era have no need for powerful techniques that takes a lot of investment when they are most likely never facing other forceusers. Even during the clone wars, they fought mostly armies of droids. They aren’t expecting to duel Dooku or Sidious 1v1. They resort to mind tricks and pushes because its “easier” to learn.

RNG wrote:Plo Koon has the ability to use it. Yet never does so in any of his fights against force users. You could argue that it's because he isn't as good with it as Oppo and while that's fair, it'd still have come in handy in some of his fights.

This point debunks itself. Koon has the ability to use it but doesn’t against ventress > its because he isn’t as good with it as Oppo. You even say that its a fair argument. So there’s your explanation. But even if we disregarded the fact that you instantly debunked your own argument, the argument is flawed: Plo Koon at the time is injured, and Ventress is ambushing him. In this fight HoC won’t be allowed to ambush Oppo from the get-go.

RNG wrote:The point stands. Malacia doesn't just ignore force barriers

You have no argument. Your arguments are the following:
Its not combat-applicable -> you admitted its combat applicable, and sources explicitly say that.

Its only been used on nonforceusers -> doesn’t prevent it from being used on forceusers.

Its “difficult” -> quote put in a blatantly false context

People use mind tricks and force pushes -> some people have force storms yet others still use force pushes; better techniques are harder to learn.

Plo Koon has it! -> you said he doesn’t use it because he’s worse than Oppo with it. And he even had circumstances hindering him.

RNG wrote:So I'll relent on my original point regarding the potential application of Malacia in Rancisis' final fight.

Concession accepted.

RNG wrote:Given that HoC should vastly outstrip Oppo in speed.

Proof for HoC even having force speed or force augmentation? To my knowledge, and according to the evidence thus far provided in the thread, he only has force push, force heal and lightsaber throw.

And then I would like proof for HoC being “vastly” faster than Oppo.

RNG wrote: So he can simply just get out of Master Rancisis' line of sight. (And likely blitz him)

So what you’re suggesting is a gap big enough that HoC than draw on the force, run around Rancisis, and stab him in the back, all before he can even react. Would like to see evidence for such a gap in speed and power. And I would like to make note that even AOTC Dooku couldn’t react quickly enough to save himself from Coleman Trebor.

RNG wrote:I'm not sure I get what you mean. The impasse in question was regarding Tholme's search for answers in his investigation. Not a martial arts contest. You could imply they're close in combative ability because that master taught Tholme for a time but even that's rather suspect.

Actually the impasse in question was regarding their ability to influence the other with their respective abilities, as thats what he says in the literal sentence before. Furthermore, Tholme claims that Dooku is only more skilled than one of the master’s students in some ways, and the master easily reacted to and dodged a sudden attack from Tholme:

RNG wrote:Bit of a stretch. Vos was trying to pump her for info. Not kill her. We know that tends to extend fights longer than they need to be.

RNG wrote:And even if I were to grant that she's close to him and could press him in a conventional melee, who cares? Because as we see in the very next panel, the second he decides to use the force, he insta ragdolls her.

You say that circumstances cause Vos to hold back, but fail to acknowledge that she does the same. She is intentionally giving him false information and making him believe Sora Bulq is Dooku’s master:

RNG wrote:Plus, looking at the entire fight, it's clear she can't even take him combatively. Why else would she run away to change the playing field to something more advantageous?

Because she’s an agile fighter and an assassin who prefers to be mobile? Would you claim that Sidious is massively sub Yoda since he fled to the senate halls rather than his office? How about Maul vs the TPM duo? They constantly moved. None of this changes the fact that she managed to shut down his lightsaber by striking the hilt with her claws, and hitting him repeatedly, forcing him to rely on the force.

And the reason it matters even if he can use the force on her to win, is because Oppo is against an entire army of masters even greater than her, surrounding him from all sides and attacking at once while he has multiple circumstances hindering him, limiting his ability to wield the force. And even then he destroyed them.

RNG wrote:1: Not being scared doesn't mean anything.

It means that Bulq believes he has a chance of beating or matching him. The latter which he did.

RNG wrote:2: Windu and Bulq used to be sparring partners. They developed Vaapad together. The fact that they fought relatively evenly in sabers is more a testament to Bulq being familiar with Windu's moves. And while generally, the same could be true in reverse (Windu knowing all of Bulq's moves), it's clear that Bulq's style and moves have changed. It's implied by him saying "I have perfected it. I have harnessed all that is inherent in it."

So since Bulq has fully perfected vaapad he’s fighting differently than Mace? That implies Mace has not fully mastered it. Which means Bulq is a greater duelist than Mace, even pre-dooku training, and yet still is inferior to massively weakened Oppo.

RNG wrote:If Bulq was anywhere near Windu overall, Palpatine would just have him killed. We see how he felt about Ventress when she grew too powerful. It's safe to assume that Bulq was a good distance from that threshold.

You’re using content made long after Bulq’s story made by an entirely different creator to limit him, which just doesn’t work. As of Republic, there had been no incidents where Sidious killed acolytes for growing too powerful. And even if this argument did work, there was nothing Sidious could do about it. Bulq was in a fully fortified and unbreachable base, surrounded by forces loyal to him, and besieged by an army of clones and jedi. Neither Dooku nor Sidious could get to him at the time even if they wanted to, and at the time Bulq was massively important to their plans.

RNG wrote:The point is, there is no reason to treat Bulq's taunting of Tholme here as anything more than a taunt. At worst, it's him trying to scare Tholme. At best, it's a case of an overinflated ego.

In fact, lets look at it another way, if Bulq was able to actually fight on par with Windu, he wouldn't have needed to create the diversion. Given that Windu is Rancisis' superior. And given that Rancisis was exhausted. Point is, Sora is trash compared to any of the best masters (HoC, Windu, Rancisis, etc)

Bulq in his last confrontation with Windu matched him in pure dueling. Then he faced darkside growth and training under Dooku. How then, could he be trash compared to Windu when he’s grown better than he was before? Even if you claim that they knew each other’s moves, that shouldn’t have mattered in their last fight if Windu is around the level for you to think he could blitz Oppo. He should have disarmed Bulq before he could even ignite his lightsabers.

This is also an attempt to make a point that gets proven by the point itself. I provide sources saying Bulq is comparable to Mace/possibly even superior, and then for how Bulq won’t face Oppo directly even while drastically weakened. And then you dismiss them saying “But Mace is >>>> Oppo and Oppo is > Bulq”. But my sources would debunk that claim, and its up to you to find a way to counter them that isn’t just “but they’re wrong”.

RNG wrote:He was only taught one move.

No. He was taught Yoda and Anakin’s “signature moves”:

RNG wrote:He's learned the signature moves of some of the Jedi order's finest.

And signature moves are, like the term implies, something that is inherently characteristic to their fighting style:



Its also funny that you say “he only knows one move from each” when its convenient, but when you argue for HoC’s fighting style you say he can switch between multiple styles with ease:

RNG wrote:Chuck Norris tells us that changing up styles or moves can throw enemies off balance. HoC can do that with ease.

But you just said that he doesn’t know any different styles! He only knows 5 signature moves, thats the extent of his lightsaber knowledge. And note that unlike what you would have us believe, Chuck Norris doesn’t mention anything about moves, he specifically says its switching styles that throws enemies off balance:

Chuck Norris wrote:“As you train you’ll learn additional fighting styles, changing styles during combat can surprise your opponent allowing you to get the upper hand.”

Moves are never mentioned. So you have to make a decision here: Does HoC know five different styles and it gives him an advantage, or does he only know five signature moves, all from jedi Oppo knows.

RNG wrote:His wins aren't bogged down by that since in most cases, the opponents whose moves he's learned use other techniques that isn't taught to the Hero.

Only Yoda used a technique that wasn’t taught to the Hero in their spars as far as the evidence you’ve provided shows. And that was a force technique that could be blocked on HoC’s saber.

RNG wrote:And he won those spars fair and square.

Just like how Plo Koon beat Yoda fair and square.

RNG wrote:The Hero had zero knowledge on the fighting styles of Maul, Dooku, Grievous, or Palpatine.

Yet he had knowledge of Jinn’s, someone who matched Maul. He had of Kenobi, who beat Grievous. He had of Yoda, who matched Sidious.

RNG wrote:To address your point regarding Oppo witnessing the training of some of HoC's opponents, sure. He may have witnessed their training. But did he have experience with or an understanding of their signature moves? I think not.

You don’t think that Oppo has ever experienced the signature moves of these jedi, aka the moves most characteristic to their style? Aka the ones they would use the most of any moves? If anything, these are the parts of their fighting styles he knows the best.

RNG wrote: And even if he did, the number of moves HoC has at his disposal will be hard for Oppo to deal with.

HoC knows five ways to move in total. Five. Comparatively, even the basic training of regular jedi have moves for each of the six zones of attack/parry, and there’s six of them:



Meaning basic initiates have more variety than HoC. That means that Oppo will easily be able to deal with the amount of moves HoC performs, and it means Oppo can switch between far more moves than HoC… and this is just Oppo’s pre-form I training…

RNG wrote:Very clever of you to turn my wank into anti-wank, Cheth. Unfortunately, it won't do Rancisis much good.

But why not? Judging by the fact you did not attempt to counter my point in any meaningful manner, I will take it as you conceding that HoC has lesser force knowledge than an initiate while being a padawan. Since you went on to not try to counter HoC not even knowing you can throw a lightsaber with the force as a full on jedi master, that means you also concede his force knowledge still is ridiculously at his prime. Yet you then expect us to believe: 1. He has force shield and force sense (neither one an ability he has learned or used at any point). 2. He can sense Oppo’s intentions instantly. 3. He can block an esoteric ability that only Koon and Rancisis can use at all, and only Oppo has mastered?

Simply saying “it won’t do Rancisis much good” should not be acknowledged as a counter argument in any form if it demonstrates his full ineptitude in wielding the force. You arguing HoC has force shield, force speed, force augmentation, and force sense without sources proving it is in on itself then something I could handwave, but it gets even more ridiculous when you then argue:

RNG wrote:On the contrary, you've done a beautiful job of establishing Master Rancisis' clout within the order. He's a very prominent figure. And as we see in several IU sources, he wasn't secretive about Malacia. So despite not knowing how to use it, our Hero is doubtless very well aware that it exists and that Oppo can use it. Meaning he'll know what to look out for. Meaning either:

A: He'll put up his mental force barrier.
B: He'll get out of the line of sight of Oppo, and then proceed to speedblitz him.

As a full padawan going on solo missions HoC doesn’t know how to use telekinesis. As a full master he doesn’t know you can throw a lightsaber. But he does know the functions of, and counters of, an esoteric ability you’ve repeatedly talked about as “difficult”. You yourself have argued that most jedi ignore Malachia in favour of force push (one of the three abilities HoC in his lifetime has taken the effort to learn). But now you expect us to believe he has extensive knowledge of Malachia?

RNG wrote:It's doubtful Zannah could use her Sith Sorcery TP on someone like Anakin. Sure, hax are a thing but in this case, it won't win Rancisis the fight.

False equivalency. 1. The functions of sith sorcery and malachia are different. 2. Anakin, unlike HoC, has extensive knowledge of the force. 3. Anakin has faced sith sorcery at the hands of Dooku and others before. 4. You have made no case why her sith sorcery couldn’t possibly function on Anakin.

RNG wrote:This is not an anti feat. This means HoC can win without needing to use hax. A further testament to his power and more legitimacy to my scaling chains.

Its an anti-feat in the context its being used: Its an anti-feat that shows that HoC is likely the least knowledgeable and masterful force practitioner we have encountered in the history of SW, and that even to learn 3 abilities he has to spend his entire career as a jedi.

RNG wrote:That was not my intent. Allow me to correct myself. My intent was Jedi Dooku > everyone else. Not necessarily Yoda. Him being "considered on equal terms with Mace Windu and Yoda" means that they're the big three of the order. We don't quite know the gaps between the big three but we do know that they're the best of the best.

But allow me to present more evidence for Jedi Dooku>Everyone else:

And then you proceed to post two quotes that say Dooku is arguably the best swordsman of the order as of TPM, and two which directly compare his combative ability to Yoda’s by having both beat Windu. Your argument of TPM Dooku ~ Yoda stands!

RNG wrote:Ignoring my clarification above, your point here assumes that Yoda doesn't grow massively after TPM. Which is puzzling since he's strong in the Force. Why wouldn't he grow?

Because he is already old even for his own species, and has had centuries to reach his full potential. Not to mention that during most of his late life until the clone wars, he’s barely even used his lightsaber:

Fact Files wrote:The old Master was so accomplished in every aspect of the Force that until the Battle of Geonosis he had rarely needed to resort to his weapon. When he did, he proved as masterful with it as without.

Infact most hadn’t seen his lightsaber for years:



Not to mention that its on you to prove that Yoda has grown. Since it is you making said claim.

RNG wrote:If a feat outright contradicts a quote, I see no reason to favor the quote more.

However if one has a quote of supremacy (Yoda) which you yourself use to put him above all jedi (which includes HoC), and the only comparison putting HoC > Yoda is a training duel (which Plo Koon also has bested Yoda in), then I see no reason not to still favour the quote. As there is no contradiction in HoC beating a holding back Yoda training a jedi knight. Especially when even Plo has beaten Yoda as well. And you hold Plo massively bellow Mace:

RNG wrote:You can point to them being sparring partners as a sign of parity but the problem with that is that Windu was also partners with Tiin. And we all know how massive the gap between them is. Same for Koon.

So either you hold Mace > Plo/HoC > Yoda, or you must admit that a training spar is not enough to indicate superiority.

And ultimately, the issue with your argument here is: You provide quotes saying Yoda is the greatest jedi, and then you say “but he isn’t, since HoC is better”. So what you’re saying is that the quote is wrong. That invalidates the quote, and leaves it completely open for other exceptions. HoC beat Yoda in a spar and therefore is > him? Then Plo Koon is too. And then the quote doesn’t matter anymore, and HoC can no longer hide from Rancisis behind the supremacy quotes of other characters.

And once those are gone, its clear that HoC has no ability of his own, with the blade or the force, that will render him capable of fighting THE MASTER OF MALACHIA

RNG wrote:But no evidence is provided for the >>> gap between Yoda and Oppo.
Why would the gap between Yoda and Rancisis not be massive? We know that Yoda and Windu are above him. And given that Windu needed the superconducting loop amp to challenge Palps and Yoda didn't... well. Yoda>>>Windu>(Unknown Amount)>Rancisis.

Mace needs an amp to challenge Sidious and Yoda doesn’t, so therefore Yoda is >>> Mace? Where does this massive gap come from? Why is it not Yoda > Mace. Why, it might even be Yoda ~ Mace, with Mace needing the amp just to bridge a miniscule gap between him and Yoda. Prove your gaps or stop making them so massive out of nowhere with no argument or sources backing it up.

You are however correct: while Mace has supremacy quotes over Rancisis, the gap between them is unknown. So the gap may once more be: Mace ~ Rancisis. So its just as likely that: Yoda ~ Mace ~ Rancisis as anything else. Its also massively more likely than having immense gaps between Yoda and Mace.

Furthermore, one of the quotes you validate to show Yoda > Mace says that Mace is the second-greatest jedi. Which once again binds HoC. So if Yoda>>>Windu>(Unknown Amount)>Rancisis is true, then Yoda>>>Windu>(Unknown Amount)> HoC must also be true. The second quote you provided for Yoda > Mace, also has Palpatine/Sidious saying Mace is a greater warrior than Yoda, and Yoda just the better teacher, so it contradicts itself, with Sidious’s opinion (which is more neutral) and Mace’s (who’s biased towards his former teacher).

RNG wrote:My saying "Yoda >>> Oppo" was a generous estimate for Rancisis.

Yet all your sources make Yoda ~ Mace ~ Rancisis just as possible.

RNG wrote:Sure, supremacy quotes may be binding to HoC.

Concession accepted.

RNG wrote:But at the end of the day, he is fighting on par with and defeating Rancisis' superiors.

*the superiors of Rancisis and HoC himself. Which means there’s nothing preventing Rancisis from doing the same.

RNG wrote:Feats should outstrip quotes.

Only if you’re willing to toss the quotes. And only if the feats actually show what you want them to. And if feats are so good, when will you be willing to show any feats of HoC being capable of blocking Malachia?

RNG wrote:But even if we are to grant that HoC is sub Yoda and Palpatine: Realistically, it has to be by a razor thin margin.

Then, if they are subject to the same quotes, what prevents Rancisis from having the same gap as HoC from Yoda and Palpatine?

RNG wrote:Oppo simply does not have such comparisons.

Being superior to Sora Bulq, who says he’s superior to Mace, despite Oppo being at his weakest, would be one of many such comparisons. You’re currently using Yoda and Mace supremacy to limit Oppo and Bulq. Once you claim that they’re not supreme, then the Oppo-bulq-mace comparison has no counter.

Would like to ask you to choose. Are Yoda and Mace supreme, and both Oppo and HoC their inferiors? Or can both freely be put above them, and therefore your only point of argument for HoC supremacy is moot?

RNG wrote:He's consistently written as an inferior to the people HoC is beating.

The ONLY sources saying Rancisis is inferior to them are the ones that also says HoC is inferior to them.

RNG wrote:The worst case scenario for my chains are: HoC<~Yoda>>Oppo.

Nope. The worst case scenario for you is either that HoC and Oppo are both sub Mace, or that both are free to scale above Yoda. Those are also the best case scenarios. Since those are the only two scenarios.

RNG wrote:I'll relent on my point here

Concession accepted

RNG wrote:Would Oppo press Dooku enough that he jumps back to let droids fire? Doubtful.

Considering HoC fought Dooku after he had just fought Kenobi, Anakin and Yoda, and was completely exhausted after the first two, I would wager that anyone could.

RNG wrote:Regarding the tail, unlike the Anzati, HoC has a lightsaber. I'm sure that if Oppo goes for a tail whip, HoC can just relieve Master Rancisis of his tail. Gg.

They had swords, which could also cut his tail. They had alot more swords than HoC had lightsabers infact.

RNG wrote:Though, it's funny you should mention 4 arms, since our Hero can counter Grievous' onslaught. Sure he's not attacking with all arms at once in this clip.

Point counters itself. Rancisis can attack with four arms and his tail at once, Grievous used one at a time.

RNG wrote:But given Grievous' speed, might as well be.

Yet to provide any sources for Grievous’s speed, why its superior to that of Oppo, and why he strikes with a single weapon faster than Rancisis does with all five limbs at once. Infact when using all four sabers at once, grievous struck 20 times a second. Thats 5 strikes with each per second. Which is not alot at all considering you think jedi can speed-blitz even other jedi masters. To fight off a whole squad of anzati masters attacking him at once, Oppo must have reacted to more strikes than that at once.

RNG wrote:Plus, it's not like Rancisis' extra arms will come into play in non bladelock situations. So the advantage is moot. He'll only be able to use 2-3 arms since 1-2 will be used to hold his saber. Like what's he even gonna do? Throw a punch? That's useless outside of bladelocks.

You say this, yet Maul repeatedly kicked Obi-wan and Jinn. Anakin and Obi-wan had a wrestling match. Anakin physically grabbed Dooku’s arms in ROTS. Etc.

And with that, we’re at the end of debunking the feeble arguments provided for HoC and against Rancisis. Greedo remains, but he will be addressed later in my post. Now is the time for the true potency of OPPO RANCISIS

MASTER OF BATTLE MEDITATION

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Anyone who knows of Oppo Rancisis knows that Malacia is not his sole signature ability, since as one of the supreme members of the council, he also is a master of BATTLE MEDITATION. Some might find this odd for me to mention, because isn’t battle meditation a power used purely for large battles?

But we know for a fact this isn’t true, as we have seen jedi use it on the spot offensively before. For example we have Nomi Sunrider, at this point not having received any jedi training and never having practiced using the force at all, using it to cause two darkside beasts to attack each other:




On later occasions Nomi has shown the ability to casually use it to make a large amount of krath warriors fight each other:




These warriors are noted to be powerful in the force, and to fight using it:



It even seems implied that she actually has to use battle meditation combatively to defeat them, and that without it they could actually kill her. This would imply that for users of battle meditation it might even be a greater weapon combatively than regular fighting.

Also works on more powerful forceusers, as evidenced by Nomi incapitating Aleema Keto with battle meditation (note, its confirmed that Nomi is using battle meditation to do this):




Then we also have the completely untrained Joruus C’baoth who can use battle meditation to completely control 37.000 crew members:

Dark Force Rising wrote:“You lie!” C’baoth cut him off, jabbing an accusing finger at him. “You always lie to me. But no more. No more. I command the Empire, and all its forces.”

He raised his hands above his head, an eerie blue-white coronal sheen playing about them. Pellaeon cringed despite himself, remembering the lightning bolts C’baoth had thrown at them in the crypt on Wayland. But no lightning came. C’baoth simply stood there, his hands clutching at empty air, his eyes gazing toward infinity. Pellaeon frowned at him … and he was just considering asking C’baoth what he was talking about when he happened to glance down into the portside crew pit.

The crewers were sitting stiffly in their chairs, their backs parade-ground straight, their hands folded in their laps, their eyes staring blankly through their consoles. Behind them, the officers were equally stiff, equally motionless, equally oblivious. The starboard crew pit was the same as was the aft bridge. And on the consoles Pellaeon could see, which should have been active with incoming reports from other sectors of the ship, the displays had all gone static.

It was a moment Pellaeon had expected and dreaded since that first visit to Wayland. C’baoth had taken command of the Chimaera.

And cause Mara Jade (a forceuser) to fall asleep before she even is on the same planet as him:

Dark Force Rising wrote:Clenching her teeth, she made the switchcover and then gave the scan map a quick look. She'd only been out of it for a minute or two but at the speed the Skipray was doing even a few seconds of the inattention could be fatal. She dug her knuckles hard into her eyes, fighting against the fatigue pulling at her and feeling the sweat breaking out again on her forehead. Flying while half asleep, her old instructor had often warned her, was the quickest if messiest way to end your life. And if she had gone down there would have been no one to blame but herself.

Or would she?

She leveled the ship off, confirmed that there were no mountains in her path, and keyed in the autopilot. The ysalamir and portable nutrient framework that Aves had given her were back near the aft hatchway, secured to the engine access panel. Unstrapping from her seat, Mara made her way back toward it -- It was as if someone had snapped on a light switch. One second she felt as if she had snapped on a light switch. One second she felt as if she had just finished a four-day battle; half a step later, a meter or so from the ysalamir, the fatigue abruptly vanished. She smiled grimly to herself. So her suspicion had been correct: Thrawn's mad Jedi Master didn't want any company. "Nice try," she called into the air.

You could try to argue that this Nomi and Joruus are doing something Rancisis isn’t capable of, but frankly that would be utterly insensible. Nomi’s first feat is performed by a Nomi with no training whatsoever, and the latter two as a simple knight who is still learning how to use battle meditation. Oppo Rancisis is a jedi high council master who’s been using it for hundreds of years. Comparatively, Joruus’s power is the same as that of Jorus, but with less training and knowledge, who in turn was a mere jedi master:

Fact Files wrote:The tests on the cloned C'baoth were ultimately disappointing. The new version had all the powers of the original, but the speed with which he had been created had caused various fundamental faults.

If this is not enough to convince you of Rancisis’s superiority, note also that he has performed a feat vastly beyond the reach of any other Battle Meditation user, as he used it on the clone wars in its entirety, only prevented from doing so fully due to the darkside actively clouding him:



However the use of battle meditation is not purely damaging in nature. Rancisis also used it to “visualize victory” and to guide where to strike:



Lets talk about visualization first. You might argue that its simply an idea of a possible future. Its not. According to Quinlan Vos, it is “as real [...] as if he had lived it.”. He sees a possible future, and he makes it happen.

Now you might question how this helps him. But honestly that should be clear. In every battle, to every event, there are probably millions of different ways for it to unfold. Doesn’t even have to be combative, by simply going on a walk countless events could unfurl. Even if one looks at a duel between Yoda vs Jinn there are many different possibilities for how it goes. We both think Yoda is much stronger, and if they dueled infinite times Yoda would beat him almost every time. But its only an almost. Since like I said earlier, forceusers aren’t gods among men. They make mistakes, and if they do they can be punished like anyone else. Even Luke Skywalker is not invincible:



And as we can see this is evidenced by his inferior in Desann ragdolling him and actually defeating him in their duel:



Now as you know, I am already arguing that Oppo is HoC’s superior, in power, skill and due to Malachia. But even if they were comparable, or if somehow someone could possibly imagine that HoC is superior, or even if you think that HoC could casually stomp Rancisis, do we truly think that the gap is such that its impossible for Oppo to win? Impossible for HoC to trip and stab himself with his lightsaber like a true Maul? Impossible for HoC to have a lapse in concentration or slightly overreach? To slip up his guard for just one moment? To underestimate or not notice Greedo and get shot in the back while dueling Oppo? To focus on Greedo and not notice Oppo using Malachia? If you do believe HoC is massively superior to any jedi in the history of SW, and is truly invulnerable to any and all possibilities, then of course HoC wins this debate, even if I scaled Oppo above Grandmaster Luke or DE Sidious it would not matter then. If you however think that HoC isn’t immortal, then there are ways for Oppo to win. And with battle meditation, especially with the darkside no longer clouding him, he could visualize those ways, and then enforce them. And with that, victory already belongs to Jedi Master Oppo Rancisis, Master of Battle Meditation, before HoC can even draw his blade.

Furthermore, battle meditation allows him to guide his own blade, or entire armies, in ways that ensure victory. I have already addressed how it benefits him, but we must not forget: This is a 2v1.

FLASH OF COMPETENCE

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Having come to my main post, and thus having to make my full case, its important to address how Greedo affects the matchup. Previously I made the argument that Greedo scales above Mace, but a meme case is not a winning case in the long run, as fun as it was to make it in my opener. But that does not mean that 1. Greedo is useless to this matchup. Nor 2. That my opening case was a waste of time. Since it is what brought forth this:

RNG wrote:Flash of Competence Greedo > Basic Sentient Competence >>> ANH Greedo >~ TCW Greedo

You have argued that regular Greedo is below the competence of a basic sentient being. And whether that is true or not is completely irrelevant to my actual argument. What is relevant, is that you on your own volition wrote “Flash of Competence Greedo > Basic Sentient Competence”. Which means that you hold Flash of competence Greedo above the average sentient beings. Now just how good is Flash of Competence Greedo?

Greedo destroyed Gorm with a headshot. A single shot. This is extremely impressive, since Gorm is described as invincible, and a fortress:

Secrets of the Jedi wrote:He pressed forward. Gorm's disadvantage was his belief in his own invincibility. He thought he was a fortress. He thought he was unbeatable.

However more importantly, Gorm previously had tanked a lightsaber stroke to his head in a duel with Qui-Gon Jinn:

Secrets of the Jedi wrote:Gorm's plated armor was formidable, but he hadn't yet met a lightsaber. Qui-Gon moved to one side. Gorm followed. He raised his arm to come down on Qui-Gon, believing, no doubt, that he would be faster and stronger. Qui-Gon ducked so that he received only a glancing blow. It was enough to turn his knees to water, but he'd expected that, planned for it. With an upward thrust, he aimed for Gorm's helmet.

His helmet was where his intelligence was. Where his targeting system spoke to his servomotors, where his motivator powered the blasters built into his hands.

Gorm shook his head. Smoke rose from one side of his helmet.

And then proceeded to take two lightsaber strikes to the head from two opponents at once:

Secrets of the Jedi wrote:He charged at Qui-Gon again. Sensing what Qui-Gon was up to, Adi moved to the other side. Together they delivered simultaneous blows to his helmet.

The helmet melted and fused to Gorm's neck.

And even after that, after his helmet melted and fused to his neck, he was still screaming and trying to fight for a few moments before he was incapitated:

Secrets of the Jedi wrote:For a moment, Gorm looked surprised. Then his eyes turned red with fury. With a scream, he flailed at Qui-Gon and tried to pummel Adi. But the lightsabers had done their work. Signals conflicted. Servomotors malfunctioned. Gorm toppled over.

Qui-Gon bent over him. He was not dead, but he was certainly incapacitated.

Meanwhile with Greedo, a single shot instantly downed Gorm:




We can hardly argue that a blaster is more powerful than a lightsaber-blade. So with one shot Greedo exceeded the performance of Adi Gallia and Qui-Gon Jinn hitting Gorm with lightsabers thrice despite having an inferior weapon and being further away. In other words, Flash of Competence Greedo is in truth FLASH OF BRILLIANCE GREEDO.

Now how do we make sure this shot-hitting and marksmanship-legend version of Greedo comes to action in this matchup? Simple enough: Battle Meditation. Rancisis can with battle meditation guide Greedo; make the future in which he hits the perfect shot or shots on HoC reality. And suddenly, HoC is facing a dangerous bounty hunter shooting at him while also fighting a jedi high council master with a lightsaber, Malachia, and battle meditation.

Cosmic Irrelevance

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Finally, to finish off this post, I want to return RNG’s favour and pointing out all of HoC’s failures and defeats. A major point of your arguments for HoC’s superiority over Rancisis is scaling him above Yoda, Sidious and MFV. I have already explained why the Yoda fight is illegitimate. But what if I told you; HoC lost to Sidious and MFV?

Let us begin with the first fight: vs Sidious. You claimed that HoC beat Sidious, and that this proves he’s at the very least comparable to the titans:

RNG wrote:While the quote above would bind HoC, the fact that he contended, let alone defeated Palpatine would show that at the very least, he has parity with that class. Which is far and above Oppo's tier.

But that is false, since he never did beat Sidious. Sidious won their encounter. Perhaps HoC managed to outduel Sidious, and that is certainly impressive. But Sidious has never been the greatest duelist. His true power lies with other things. And no I do not refer to force lightning, nor to telekinesis or telepathy, or anything like that. His true powers are lies and persuasion. Was it with dueling that Sidious caused the destruction of the jedi? Was it with force lightning that he caused the creation of the empire? No, he is a liar, a manipulator, and that is why he defeated the jedi order:

Revenge of the Sith wrote:There came a turning point in the clash of the light against the dark.

It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.

It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The thing that makes sith different from mere dark jedi are that they are the most manipulative, most malevolent, of all the followers of the dark side:



And even in combat, its noted that regular lightsaber combat is judged by skill. Advanced combat by force powers. And the sith win fights by breaking the jedi’s spirit; by lies and manipulation, not by their skill nor their power:



Ultimately, how did their duel end? Did the so-called Hero of Coruscant destroy Sidious and rid the galaxy of the dark side? No. Like Mace Windu and like Yoda, HoC lost his duel before it even began, for with the slightest effort of persuasion on Sidious’s part he left Coruscant to the clutches of the darkside:





Mace Windu bested Sidious with their blades, but he had long lost since Sidious had put everything in place for Anakin’s fall. Yoda matched Sidious with the blade and the force, but he had long lost since Sidious had already destroyed the jedi and the republic. The Hero of Coruscant bested Sidious with his blade, but he had long lost, since there was nothing he could do to stop neither him nor Lord Vader.

Now onto MFV. Unlike Sidious he is not yet a manipulator or liar. He is a pure engine of destruction. So why does HoC not scale above him for beating him? Because while HoC beat one version of MFV, he specifically has to do it before MFV unleashes his full power, for at that point his assault becomes unblockable and capable of oneshotting:



Making clear that HoC is in no way comparable to him. It only becomes worse because this is before he destroys the seperatist council and chokes Padme, and truly falls to the darkness. So: the MFV Kenobi fought > the MFV HoC fought > HoC > holding back MFV.

And while these are the most relevant examples, they are not the only ones. HoC beats Maul, but does nothing to stop him from killing Jinn and dooming the jedi. He beats Jango twice, but does nothing to prevent him from leading Kenobi to Kamino or nearly killing Mace. He beats Dooku, but he still escapes with the death star plans and so the clone wars continues. He defeats Grievous, but does not manage to capture or kill him and end the clone wars. Then comes Sidious and MFV, both who’m he fail to do anything against. And even Suit Vader continues unhindered. In Star Wars, every character’s existence is relevant to either the Will of the Force or to the Dark Side, everyone affects events so that the Will of the Force may be done. Oppo has guided many jedi, saved many lives in battles, and even his death led to Vos defeating Sora Bulq. Greedo threatening Han pushed him to help the Rebellion. Everyone matters.

Except the Hero of Coruscant. Remove him from the Star Wars galaxy, and nothing changes. Noone’s life gets different. The sith won’t be hindered. The jedi won’t be helped. Its almost as if he never existed at all…

Conclusion

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- Rancisis is the tertiary master of the Order, and that position comes with knowledge and mastery of the force
- Attempted counters to Malachia are all attempts at handwaving without any evidence to back it up. Still no actual case provided for how HoC would counter it.
- Abilities (force speed, shield and sense) are said by RNG to be in the HoC’s possession which he evidently doesn’t have (he only possesses push, heal and lightsaber throw)
- Sora Bulq thinks he is superior to Mace Windu, yet is afraid to fight a massively hindered Oppo stated to be at his “weakest”.
- Any attempts to scale HoC over Yoda, Dooku, Sidious or Mace renders their supremacy quotes wrong and therefore Oppo can also be excluded from them by Bulq. Any attempts to enforce supremacy quotes on Oppo will also enforce them on HoC.
- HoC knows five moves in total, less than an initiate.
- HoC is a neophyte in the force.
- Rancisis can use battle meditation to overwhelm HoC’s mind

ur a fucking menace lol

Nute_Chethray wrote:So you would not say that the highest-ranking member of the Order is the strongest (Yoda)? Note: you specifically provided supremacy quotes for him. And you would not put the second-highest-ranking member of the order second (Mace)? While you might pull the ROTS Anakin card, that would contradict your earlier Yoda supremacy quotes, an I’d have to point out that the Chosen One is a clear exception. Clout in the order comes from understanding and knowledge of the force, both of which are applicable to combat, as it improves their ability to wield or counter it.

The supremacy quotes that I used to put Windu, Dooku, and Yoda above Oppo all have saber skill and power levels more or less in mind. What you've provided for Oppo has just clout in mind. Wisdom is great but it's not necessitated to correlate with power levels and overall standings.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:False equivalency. Luke’s order is entirely different from the Clone Wars jedi order. What's especially amusing is that you bring up Tionne as a counter, when less than a month ago, you specifically said:
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Tionne is a “special case”, who was promoted to a high rank specifically because “her teaching abilities surpass even that of Luke’s”. And while you might claim your opinion has since changed, you also provided evidence for it:

You do realize that this strengthens my bottom line, right? Tionne's standing is not necessarily due to her power level. Similarly, Oppo's standing within the order isn't necessitated to be due to power levels. Whereas Windu and Yoda have supremacy quotes for clout and power levels/saber skill.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Based of you to bring up the game in which Plo Koon beats Yoda in a spar! Guess that means that either Yoda’s supremacy quotes means nothing (so Oppo is free of them) or that beating Yoda in a spar is not indicative of supremacy over him, as you claim that HoC’s duel with him is!

The quote in question of Plo allegedly beating Yoda is a mere rumor:

I heard:

I'm sure I don't need to remind you, but here's how Plo + a couple other masters fared against Yoda:

Shadow Hunter:

We don't even know when the alleged spar in which Plo beat Yoda was. (If it happened at all.) So I see no reason to assume the gap between Plo and Yoda is anything other than what Shadow Hunter shows us.

And unless you wanna argue that Yoda without a lightsaber is somehow > Yoda with a lightsaber, it's safer to assume the rumor was just that. A rumor.

Also note the last line in the Shadow Hunter excerpt. Even with all his knowledge (which is said to be better than technique), Yoda still lost to HoC. Our self insert is just that good.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Well… I am surprised you are arguing that ROTS Kenobi being compared to Oppo raises Kenobi. So you hold Oppo > or = ROTS Kenobi; someone who unlike HoC beat MFV (more on that later). I agree with Oppo > Kenobi though, and since we both do concession accepted

Kenobi isn't of consequence to my argument. Plus the iteration of him that beat MFV isn't the same as beginning of ROTS Obi Wan, so it's even more inconsequential. I'll get into the MFV stuff soon since it raises HoC even more than I had originally thought. Stay tuned.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:So exactly like the threat of a lightsaber. As my previous quote said: “the best blades are kept in their sheats”. Any combative ability of jedi is first and foremost means of keeping the peace, not of causing conflict. This however in no way, shape or form implies they aren’t combat-applicable, thats conjecture.
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You being blind is none of my concern. You have to prove why it can’t be used in lightsaber duels. And so far you have provided no evidence.
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Something I can’t help but noting is that, while this is a huge reach from yourself, what prevents Oppo from using it to end this fight before it starts as well? If he uses malacia instantly and it downs HoC before he can even draw his saber, that still would be a perfectly legitimate win.

Lets look into the mechanics of the ability. As per the most recent source depicting it, we're shown something crucial: Those with a high fortitudes can resist it. (Blue)

Fortitude:

Jedi also have higher fortitudes than the average thugs Malacia is designed to be used against.

Jedi Fortitude:

The crux of my arguments against Malacia is that it's not some one size fits all ability or some no limits fallacy like you're trying to paint it as. Our good ol Hero happens to not only be a Jedi, but one of extremely high rank due to his feats and status as a master, I see no reason to just assume his fortitude won't be enough to resist it.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:With this I already want to make note we should dismiss every time RNG said its not combat-applicable, as he has now admitted it is. Its also outright stated in the Encyclopedia, which is something you apparently didn’t reply to, probably since you didn’t want to have to say “I concede the point”

Come on now... don't take my words out of context and ignore my bottom line. It's clear that my intent was only to say it could be effective against non force users. I even bolded the text for you. Force users are an entirely different beast. You'd use different tactics if you were fighting a small child vs if you were fighting Muhammad Ali or Bruce Lee.

But anyway: Like I said, the crux of that entire point is that it's not really a factor in a fight with Force users. Since they naturally have higher fortitudes, making it harder to effect them. Remember, Oppo himself suggests it as a perfect tool against small fish:

Rancisis' Description:

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Except for Sidious killing himself with it in DE, Force Storms were only ever used against nonforceusers. If we excluded Sidious killing himself, would you say its fair to argue that if Sidious sent a force storm on a jedi padawan, the storm would harmlessly glide over the padawan’s force defence? When Naga Sadow caused solar flares to destroy the ships chasing him, he only hit nonforceusers. Would you say that with a force shield, any jedi could easily block solar flares hitting them directly?

Now that's a laughable false equivalency. Both of those examples are completely attack potency focused. Conjured lightning of that nature is a very much physical attack and we see that it can actually kill people. (See Luke and Leia running away to escape its destruction.) Same with flares. It's not a mental attack that can be resisted with fortitude. It's a physical force.

And you're trying to use roundabout examples instead of the direct comparisons we're shown in the lore. Malacia is in the same realm as pushes and mind tricks. Both of which can be resisted by force users who properly put up defenses. There really isn't any reason Malacia isn't the same.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Here’s the thing: Jedi are not superheroes with superpowers. They’re regular humans (except for the alien ones) who can call upon space-magic. Which means that any forcepower that can affect a nonforceuser, can affect a forceuser.

It's way harder to use abilities like the Mind Trick against someone with proper defenses and/or proper fortitudes. Both of which HoC would have as a force user.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Now forceusers can use their own abilities to counter those abilities that get used at them, but its not immunity, and its not some kind of a video game where “HoC casts force shield; he’s immune to the force”. First of, a force shield is a conscious effort: HoC uses a force shield? Then he’s drawing focus and power on protecting himself. Focus and power that gets drained from his own offensive.

Nope. Putting up defenses is practically muscle memory for Force Users. So it's not some kind of detriment. And the whole "losing focus and power that could be used on the offensive" point is moot considering HoC had his defenses up whilst fighting all his foes. If he hadn't, they would have done any number of things mentioned below:

Force Shields:

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Second; a force shield does not just outright make you immune to the force abilities of another. Dooku for example explains there’s ways to circumvent jedi training:

The methods he's referring to are almost certainly dark sided in nature. So Oppo won't have em. Furthermore, he's saying this to someone he's torturing. The methods he has in mind almost certainly wouldn't come into play in non torture situations.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:And a forcepower such as Malacia, one that is esoteric, and which functions by turning an opponent’s equilibrium, their own strength and calm, against themselves, sounds like a perfect anti-jedi ability.

That's IF you can get past the extra tough Jedi fortitude and their passive force shields. Observe how Rancisis describes using the ability:

Flow of Blood :

To do as the text mentions, you'd have to get past someone's natural Force barrier/shield to use Malacia. It's even harder than turning off someone's saber mid duel or yanking it from their grasp. If it's already hard as fuck to do something like that in conventional duels between two closely matched opponents, imagine just how much harder it'll be for Rancisis to do something way harder against an opponent of greater force power than himself.

Lets revisit the Encyclopedia. It tells us that Malacia requires tranferring one's own force energy into the target. Hard to do that when your opponent's passive defenses block Force attacks

Encyclopedia:

To help properly paint a picture, I've taken the liberty of creating this visual with HoC on the right



This is all assuming that Rancisis decides to attempt to use the ability against our Hero. Because it's not exactly practical within a fast paced duel. He'll be too busy fruitlessly fending off the Hero's lightsaber attacks to have a chance to pull Malacia out. Expending resources to use Malacia is not in Rancisis' best interests.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:This is blatantly providing misinformation. The quote never mentioned nonforceusers. Its a “difficult discipline”, which just means that its harder to learn, which is why many prefered to use other powers. This does however not mean that somehow the ability takes greater effort to perform, and nowhere does it say its difficult in the context of fighting opponents.

On the contrary, Malacia takes up more energy (VP/Vitality points) and is harder to use than normal offensive TK (force strike). Additionally it takes the same amount of energy to apply that as it does lightning. One of the most taxing abilities:

Vitality Point Comparison:

To be completely frank though, we don't even need stats for this. Since it's rather basic in concept. It's easier to do a one and done attack than to focus on someone's mind and pour your energy into them. So yes, it does take greater effort.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:And the argument that its harder to use against a forceuser: that applies to everything. Its more difficult to use a force push against someone who can also force push. Its more difficult to use a lightsaber against someone with a lightsaber. Its more difficult to use a blaster on a forceuser than a nonforceuser. But none of this prevents it being capable of being used against them.

And why is it more difficult to use a force push against force users? Because they can actually defend against it with their barriers/shields. Why is it more difficult to use a lightsaber against a force user? Because they train to fight with and defend against sabers. Using an attack on someone who can easily defend against it means the attack won't mean anything or be all that useful in the long run.

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Nute_Chethray wrote: And malachia, an ability specifically intended to use the strength and equilibrium of their opponent and turn it against them, sounds like an ability that specifically would be more useful the tougher the opposition.

You've mentioned this before and I find it puzzling that this is the route you'd take. When you say "strength" and "tougher", are you referring to physical strength or strength in the Force?

If it's the former (which Rancisis' description in JVS supports), the point has zero value. Because we can't at all quantify HoC's physical strength. Despite my excellent visual depictions of the Hero so far, it literally can be whatever. Similar to the Outlander in this case. Hell for all we know, it could be a woman. And therefore could have horrible physical strength. For legal reasons this is a joke.

And if it's the latter, and you mean to say that HoC's superior force ability makes him more susceptible, I'd have to ask why? Because none of the scans you've provided suggest that.

Or maybe you refer to something else. Which would be moot since physical strength is what more or less seems to be emphasized.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Lots of assumptions here alone.

Lol. Lets get into it then.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Proof that he has a particularily potent barrier?

Why wouldn't he? It's all but necessitated. He wouldn't have been able to beat the high tier force users that he did if he didn't have a good barrier. The fact that his enemies were never able to violate his barrier with TK or other attacks more than supports that. If his barrier wasn't up to par against his opponents, they could just yank his saber away or forcefully turn it off or any number of things. To quote PoD again: "A Force-shield was the most basic-and most necessary-protection there was."

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Proof that he has sufficient force sense to sense the ability being used?

Force users can sense when other force users are exerting themselves greatly or getting ready to exert themselves greatly. (Which is what Malacia requires of Oppo.) It's in the base of every force user. Hell even untrained ones can sense presences. To sense exertion isn't much different.

Sense:

HoC is more than strong enough in the Force to sense something so simple.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Proof that he has either ability? In the game (the only source to ever include HoC), he only has force push, force heal and lightsaber throw. Not force barrier or force sense. You also can’t say “game mechanics”, as you were the first to argue for it being a proper demonstration of his abilities:
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So would like to see sources for his “potent barrier”, how he can just “sense” Malachia, of how he can “block it” with seemingly no effort, and of how he has any of these abilities.

I don't need to argue "game mechanics" since it's the most basic and necessary protection there ever was. It just is a thing with every force user. Do really think someone like Dooku wouldn't yank HoC's saber out of his hands if he could? It's extremely in character for any of HoC's opponents in the game to do so. HoC did have his barriers/shields/defenses up.

But sure I'll humor you. HoC was able to sense Palpatine getting ready to use his lightning. And was able to block multiple bursts of it. Among various other examples.



To hammer the point home, the very essence of dueling as we see it in SW is both a contest in the conventional physical realm and in the Force. Force defense is always just as present as saber defense. Fights are determined by who can outmaneuver or overpower their opponent on both dueling prowess and force defense and sense.

Guarding against the Force powers of the enemy and obscuring your own intentions required as much concentration and energy as augmenting your physical prowess or anticipating the moves of your foe. It was that unseen part of combat, the invisible battle of wills, not the obvious interaction of bodies and blades, that more often than not decided the fate of a duel.

-Path of Destruction

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Proof that it isn’t? In the quotes I’ve posted its called “A powerful defense”, it induces “powerful dizziness and nausea”, a “potent martial art”, and is “powerful when employed properly”. Everything suggests its an extremely powerful ability (you yourself said its “an extremely potent ability”), yet you just dismiss it by saying its not that tier of hax. Where’s your proof? Where’s the argument? You just try to dismiss Malachia but never give evidence for why its not a strong ability.

Your argument is that it's some no limits fallacy that ignores basic universe rules like Force barriers. With how you're attempting to paint the ability, Oppo could instantly take down literally any character in the verse. Your argument might as well paint him and anyone that can use Malacia as the GOAT force usuer.

Oppo would need to channel his energy into HoC. Such a thing wouldn't be possible if the HoC is blocking Force attacks with his own defenses. So it's not some defense bypassing hax.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:So you’re going to specifically ignore the explicit reason for why other abilities are favoured? Malachia is as you said (but in an entirely wrong context), “difficult” to learn, and most jedi in the prequel era have no need for powerful techniques that takes a lot of investment when they are most likely never facing other forceusers. Even during the clone wars, they fought mostly armies of droids. They aren’t expecting to duel Dooku or Sidious 1v1. They resort to mind tricks and pushes because its “easier” to learn.

So a one size fits all power that would plausibly allow someone of Bruck Chun tier to instantly take down Crucible Luke exists and..... Almost every single Jedi finds it useless? Sounds like a stretch.

The Jedi were prepared to square off against dark siders too. The Order was a lot more vigilant post TPM.

Jedi are ready:

They have every reason to learn an ability that (by your logic) would let them instantly take down Palps. Even if there's a narrow chance of them meeting him, the potential benefits far outweigh any reasons not to learn the ability. Hell, absolute mastery isn't even necessary. Just need to be able to use it.

Yet despite this, most of the order didn't think they'd need it. As per Vos, they were ready (most of em without Malacia mind you) to face whatever the Sith have planned for em. Which would certainly include fights against the Sith themselves.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:This point debunks itself. Koon has the ability to use it but doesn’t against ventress > its because he isn’t as good with it as Oppo. You even say that its a fair argument. So there’s your explanation. But even if we disregarded the fact that you instantly debunked your own argument, the argument is flawed: Plo Koon at the time is injured, and Ventress is ambushing him. In this fight HoC won’t be allowed to ambush Oppo from the get-go.

Koon doesn't have to be as good with it as Rancisis in order to instantly take down Ventress with it if the ability ignored force defenses. And there's no indication that he's bad with the ability. That is what you'd have to prove. That he's substandard in his skill with it. Clone Wars CG says he can use it just fine. It wouldn't have given him the skill if he couldn't.

In the time it took for Ventress to lunge at him, he was able to issue orders. Hell, they were literally facing each other. He isn't getting sucker punched here. The fight starts more or less on a neutral playing field. If Malacia could ignore force barriers, (which it would need to be able to for it to play a role in the fight against HoC,) then Koon could and would have used it here.

Spoiler:

Koon actually is able to TK her here. Meaning he broke through her force barrier. He coulda just turned Malacia on right here but it seems that the ability isn't even reliable enough for him to use it to keep her down. Her fortitude must just be too much for him to use it.

Spoiler:

And you have to elaborate on the injury. How is one broken arm stopping him from using Malacia? He's able to duel fine. So it's not like he's strapped for stamina or energy.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:You have no argument. Your arguments are the following:
Its not combat-applicable -> you admitted its combat applicable, and sources explicitly say that.

Useful against non force sensitives, yes. Not so much against a competent force user.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Its only been used on nonforceusers -> doesn’t prevent it from being used on forceusers.

Rancisis notes that it's remarkable against non force using thugs. Zero sources would support it being some one size fits all ability. And the nature of its use (pouring force energy into someone) would fall under what's generally blocked by force defenses. It's about as useful as mind tricks against force users. So not very. Add to that the extra Jedi fortitude it'll have to go through on top of the barrier.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Its “difficult” -> quote put in a blatantly false context

As if that's the only evidence that points to it being harder to use. Refer back to the vitality points argument. Hell, even that aside, like I said, carefully focusing and pouring energy into a specific area of a target is harder to do than just force pushing. It's inherently more taxing.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:People use mind tricks and force pushes -> some people have force storms yet others still use force pushes; better techniques are harder to learn.

This is a wonky example lol. Storms are never given the short straw in comparison to other abilities like Malacia explicitly is. If Malacia could ignore force defenses and insta-defeat anyone, then it would be used infinitely more than we see. What you're painting it as is a miracle pill that would defeat any threat with ease.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Plo Koon has it! -> you said he doesn’t use it because he’s worse than Oppo with it. And he even had circumstances hindering him.

But he's still 100% able to use it. If it ignored force barriers, his fight with Ventress wouldn't have been a fight at all. And he had zero hindrance that would stop him from using Malacia specifically. A broken arm does not mean he can't use Malacia. Nor was he suckerpunched and unable to bring it to bear due to that.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Proof for HoC even having force speed or force augmentation? To my knowledge, and according to the evidence thus far provided in the thread, he only has force push, force heal and lightsaber throw.
--
And then I would like proof for HoC being “vastly” faster than Oppo.

The fact that he defeated characters who are faster than Oppo more than speaks for itself as far as HoC's speed is concerned. You'd have to argue that all his opponents somehow held back and let him win if you think his speed isn't on the Titan+ class. And Oppo is laughably below that class as per intent and various supremacy quotes. HoC on the other hand is beating Titans.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:So what you’re suggesting is a gap big enough that HoC than draw on the force, run around Rancisis, and stab him in the back, all before he can even react. Would like to see evidence for such a gap in speed and power. And I would like to make note that even AOTC Dooku couldn’t react quickly enough to save himself from Coleman Trebor.

All HoC has to do is move before Rancisis is able to focus and transfer his energy into him. It doesn't have to be before Rancisis can react. Just has to do it before he brings the power to bear. But as I've said, it's not like Rancisis can get past HoC's barrier.

As for the gap between HoC and Oppo, feel like I've made that very clear throughout this debate. But sure, I'll repeat myself: The Hero is held at or above a class which is held far above Oppo's class. Your arguments for his standing place him as number 3 in clout. Which isn't necessitated to extend to power levels. And even if it was, that'd put him below Windu, who is constantly held far below Yoda. The same Yoda that had to pull out esoterics against HoC but still lost. And of course, after that, HoC fights Palpatine and MFV.

The Dooku example is moot. It's not like Dooku was prepared. Wasn't exactly conventional neutral ground. Would go very differently if it was.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Actually the impasse in question was regarding their ability to influence the other with their respective abilities, as thats what he says in the literal sentence before

In that case, this argument is even more useless lol. When it says "impose their will", it refers to Anzati TP. He's basically saying "we can't mind trick each other and you need info and I won't tell you". That's what the impasse is. Not a martial arts contest.

Impasse:

NEG to Alien Species:

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Furthermore, Tholme claims that Dooku is only more skilled than one of the master’s students in some ways, and the master easily reacted to and dodged a sudden attack from Tholme:

The "some ways" are clearly the only important ones in determining a fight lol. Plus Tholme caught and defeated that Master's student. Whereas he got curbstomped hard by Dooku. Safe to say he's just coping. Lastly, the master dodging one attack is not an indicator of parity lol.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:You say that circumstances cause Vos to hold back, but fail to acknowledge that she does the same. She is intentionally giving him false information and making him believe Sora Bulq is Dooku’s master:

Your argument for the Anzati is that they're amazing martial artists who can press Jedi. This point above has zero relevance to that.

But lets recap: She """pressed""" a Vos who was holding back and trying to pump her for info, ran away because a direct confrontation is not favorable for her, deactivated his saber with a cheapshot with the cortosis gauntlet and ultimately still got ragdolled when he brought the force fully into play. Aaaaaand then finally once he's taking the info from her..... she reveals exactly what happened. She gives him the face of the man who hired her along with Viento: Sora Bulq.

She reveals what she knows. Not the same thing as he was doing.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Because she’s an agile fighter and an assassin who prefers to be mobile? Would you claim that Sidious is massively sub Yoda since he fled to the senate halls rather than his office? How about Maul vs the TPM duo? They constantly moved. None of this changes the fact that she managed to shut down his lightsaber by striking the hilt with her claws, and hitting him repeatedly, forcing him to rely on the force.

Sidious and Maul didn't disengage and run away to get the drop on their opponents. This assassin did. You're confusing cheap moves as proof of combative parity.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:And the reason it matters even if he can use the force on her to win, is because Oppo is against an entire army of masters even greater than her, surrounding him from all sides and attacking at once while he has multiple circumstances hindering him, limiting his ability to wield the force. And even then he destroyed them.

If you're using the fact that they're so good, they make their enemies resort to using Force attacks, what was the point of implying that Oppo is way more skilled than them when he killed most of them with Force attacks lol. Furthermore, they thought they were attacking an unsuspecting target. But he knew they were there as soon as they entered his room. So a good portion of his kills can be attributed to him having the drop on them.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:It means that Bulq believes he has a chance of beating or matching him. The latter which he did.

Who cares what Bulq believes. It's noted that Windu only used all his skills (which likely also includes saber skill mind you) when he fought Ventress. So it's more likely that he was holding back against Bulq. That or Bulq's performance against Windu is a circumstantial thing only due to knowing his moves and doesn't have much bearing on overall power levels.

All his skills:

Furthermore, Mace was stated to be distressed during his fight with Bulq. Sora was like a brother to him. The reason Bulq did so well was because Mace didn't wanna fight him. But when Windu got serious and realized the real fight was against Ventress, he instantly slapped Bulq down.

Spoiler:

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Nute_Chethray wrote:So since Bulq has fully perfected vaapad he’s fighting differently than Mace? That implies Mace has not fully mastered it. Which means Bulq is a greater duelist than Mace, even pre-dooku training, and yet still is inferior to massively weakened Oppo.

He perfected it in his own eyes. His style has changed. He only thinks it's superior to Windu. His new dark philosophy makes him think he has the right idea on the style. Windu himself notes that Sora didn't master the ability. All I said was that Sora's style changed. Not that it's better than Windu. Which it isn't ultimately.

Vaapad mastered him:

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Nute_Chethray wrote:You’re using content made long after Bulq’s story made by an entirely different creator to limit him, which just doesn’t work. As of Republic, there had been no incidents where Sidious killed acolytes for growing too powerful.

Palpatine being weary of the growth of disciples and limiting their power and/or growth has been a thing since the 90s (see Geth). And it fits his character. If Bulq was a serious threat, Palps would have him slapped down.

DESB:

With Ventress, we're more or less given a level at which he'd start getting concerned of his acolytes.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:And even if this argument did work, there was nothing Sidious could do about it. Bulq was in a fully fortified and unbreachable base, surrounded by forces loyal to him, and besieged by an army of clones and jedi. Neither Dooku nor Sidious could get to him at the time even if they wanted to, and at the time Bulq was massively important to their plans.

It's funny that you argue this and then later go off on a tangent about Palpatine being a master manipulator that orchestrates all kinds of things. It's not out of his means whatsoever to shut down Bulq if it really was important to him. And various Jedi breached the base, too. It's not like Palpatine has no means.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Bulq in his last confrontation with Windu matched him in pure dueling. Then he faced darkside growth and training under Dooku. How then, could he be trash compared to Windu when he’s grown better than he was before

For one, Windu wasn't using all his skill and was distressed. So "matched in pure dueling" is a bit generous as I've shown above. And for another, we have Bulq getting trashed in their first fight when Windu gets serious. The only thing Bulq has supporting him being near Mace is his own taunt. Vague growth + ego isn't enough to just assume he's Windu tier.

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Nute_Chethray wrote: Even if you claim that they knew each other’s moves, that shouldn’t have mattered in their last fight if Windu is around the level for you to think he could blitz Oppo. He should have disarmed Bulq before he could even ignite his lightsabers.

Windu wanted to understand why Bulq fell to the dark side. Why would he just immediately paste him? And even after their talk, judging from the artwork, Windu hardly appears to be taking the fight seriously. Judging by his facial expressions. And look back to the Jaden Korr quote I posted in my opener. Dueling correlates with Force power. And given what his force power is capable of against Bulq, I see no reason he can't do the same thing in sabers. The only prayer Bulq would have then is knowing Windu's moves but that does not mean he scales to Windu tier.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:This is also an attempt to make a point that gets proven by the point itself. I provide sources saying Bulq is comparable to Mace/possibly even superior, and then for how Bulq won’t face Oppo directly even while drastically weakened. And then you dismiss them saying “But Mace is >>>> Oppo and Oppo is > Bulq”. But my sources would debunk that claim, and its up to you to find a way to counter them that isn’t just “but they’re wrong”.

You provided Bulq's flawed opinion/just a taunt plus his "matching" a Windu that wasn't taking the fight that seriously. I've pointed out that it's just a taunt as well as the fact that him being >~ Windu doesn't really gel with the lore. I've also gone into why Bulq matching Windu is a spurious take. We're left with Bulq at one point "matching" (likely due to him knowing a lot of Windu's moves) a Windu that wasn't serious, and then Bulq taunting Tholme by saying he's better than Windu.

Your argument is Windu>~Bulq (Since he "matched" Windu and believed himself to be better) < Exhausted Oppo (since he didn't wanna face him directly) < < Prime Oppo.

Yet earlier and later in your posts, you imply that Windu is > Oppo. Hell, that is a massive crux in chair scaling too. Clout transfers to overall standing in your view. Windu is above Oppo in clout. So your proposed argument is:

Windu>~Bulq (Since he "matched" Windu and believed himself to be better) < Exhausted Oppo (since he didn't wanna face him directly) < < Prime Oppo < Windu

For chair scaling to work, Bulq can't be Windu tier. That or Bulq is above Oppo but just used a cheap move anyway.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:No. He was taught Yoda and Anakin’s “signature moves”:
--
And signature moves are, like the term implies, something that is inherently characteristic to their fighting style:

You can use something inherently characteristic to one thing without knowing the entire thing lol. You or I don't need to be be a master of whatever martial art Bruce Lee uses to learn one of his moves.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Its also funny that you say “he only knows one move from each” when its convenient, but when you argue for HoC’s fighting style you say he can switch between multiple styles with ease:

Because they're not mutually exclusive. Whipping out a special/different than usual move in the middle of combat to surprise your enemy fits within the context of what Chuck Norris tells us.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:But you just said that he doesn’t know any different styles! He only knows 5 signature moves, thats the extent of his lightsaber knowledge. And note that unlike what you would have us believe, Chuck Norris doesn’t mention anything about moves, he specifically says its switching styles that throws enemies off balance:

When did I say he doesn't know any fighting styles? I said he doesn't know the exact styles of those combatants. Which is what you tried to use to bog down the Hero's wins. Moves fall under style. He's still using their fighting styles albeit for just a move. Think about it like this. In a fight, if one were to use a move that's outside of their normal style, that could still trip the enemy up in order to gain an upper hand. These aren't mutually exclusive things.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Moves are never mentioned. So you have to make a decision here: Does HoC know five different styles and it gives him an advantage, or does he only know five signature moves, all from jedi Oppo knows.

Simple. HoC can change his normal style with signature moves from other Jedi. Which is helpful within fights. But hey, even if he knew all those styles, that's further proof he scales to those combatants.

Also, Oppo knowing the Jedi in question doesn't really mean anything. HoC learned their magnum opuses. We have zero indication that Oppo did the same. Merely knowing someone isn't enough to counter the moves advantage that HoC has. Unless you can prove that Oppo knows how to use all those moves as well.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Only Yoda used a technique that wasn’t taught to the Hero in their spars as far as the evidence you’ve provided shows. And that was a force technique that could be blocked on HoC’s saber.

Are you trying to imply that the fact that it's blockable makes the feat less impressive? Yoda had to pull out all the stops. He had to bring esoterics into the mix and still lost. Not really reflective of him holding back. And it only supports my point that HoC's win against Yoda is a testament to the Hero's skill and power.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Just like how Plo Koon beat Yoda fair and square.

Plo ""beat"" Yoda in a fight of unknown and therefore unusable circumstances. And that's if the fight even happened in the first place since it's it's only a rumor. We do know the circumstances of The Hero's fight against Yoda on the other hand and we can quantify them. He beat a Yoda that used esoterics, which would imply that Yoda was very far from holding back.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Yet he had knowledge of Jinn’s, someone who matched Maul. He had of Kenobi, who beat Grievous. He had of Yoda, who matched Sidious.

He had one move. And bear in mind, you don't have to use the moves you learn in combat in the game. So there really is no proof that he relied on those moves. Also Jinn is sub Maul so it's not like it would have done HoC much good.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:You don’t think that Oppo has ever experienced the signature moves of these jedi, aka the moves most characteristic to their style? Aka the ones they would use the most of any moves? If anything, these are the parts of their fighting styles he knows the best.

Why would he know their magnum opuses the best? Plus knowing something exists or even seeing it is not the same as being able to counter or use it. Oppo has at best witnessed it. Why should that translate to him being able to counter it. Do you really think you or I could counter Bruce Lee using his famous movies just because we know they exist and/or have seen them? Similarly Rancisis maybe witnessing the moves in question is by no means confirmation that he can counter them. And you haven't provided any proof of Rancisis sparring with the Masters enough to be that well intimated with them.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:HoC knows five ways to move in total. Five. Comparatively, even the basic training of regular jedi have moves for each of the six zones of attack/parry, and there’s six of them:

You do know that the signature moves HoC learns isn't all that he knows/uses in combat, right? Also proof that he only knows 5 moves? Sounds like conjecture to me. If you base that off of him being taught the signature moves of those Jedi and nothing else.... well by that logic, Oppo knows zero moves since we don't get any such lore on his lightsaber combat knowledge.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Meaning basic initiates have more variety than HoC. That means that Oppo will easily be able to deal with the amount of moves HoC performs, and it means Oppo can switch between far more moves than HoC… and this is just Oppo’s pre-form I training…

Going by your logic: Oppo doesn't know those pre form 1 moves. Because by your logic, characters only know what we've seen them learn.

Do you really think it's possible to master the magnum opuses of those Jedi if your pre form 1 argument was true? Beyond that, you've said earlier that he outright has their full fighting styles:

Nute_Chethray wrote:

So there's two ways we can go about this:

1: HoC knows the full fighting styles of Oppo's superiors (Yoda, Anakin, Mace, etc). Meaning that he is superior to Rancisis for not only having their fighting styles, but also beating them. Whereas all Rancisis has is witnessing some of the fighting styles in question.

2: HoC only knows the signature moves of Oppo's superiors and not their full combat style. Meaning he can bring just those to bear without any of the potential drawbacks of their full styles. And that HoC is superior to Rancisis for not relying on those full styles in his fights with Oppo's superiors.

Pick your poison. As both of these options work very well for me.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:But why not? Judging by the fact you did not attempt to counter my point in any meaningful manner, I will take it as you conceding that HoC has lesser force knowledge than an initiate while being a padawan. Since you went on to not try to counter HoC not even knowing you can throw a lightsaber with the force as a full on jedi master, that means you also concede his force knowledge still is ridiculously at his prime. Yet you then expect us to believe: 1. He has force shield and force sense (neither one an ability he has learned or used at any point). 2. He can sense Oppo’s intentions instantly. 3. He can block an esoteric ability that only Koon and Rancisis can use at all, and only Oppo has mastered?

1: Force users put up their defenses as soon as the blades are drawn if not sooner. HoC would not have been able to beat the opponents he did were it not for that. You would have to argue that they massively held back or something equally nonsensical. We don't need to be explicitly told that characters put these defenses up for it to be the case. In fact, I'm sure there's more instances of it not being mentioned. And sense is a passive thing anyway. This whole argument on your part is arguing that absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

2: So it's your belief that Oppo would transfer his energy into HoC and the Hero will just not notice him trying or not counter it? Force users feel when other force users exert themselves. And they sure as hell would feel it when someone's pouring their essence into them.

3: Yes since to use it, Oppo would need to get past our Hero's shield/defenses as well as Jedi level fortitude.

To address the broader point: HoC doesn't need to be some Force scholar to defeat Force scholars. (Which mind you he did multiple times.) Different Jedi focus on different fields. With HoC, it's clearly dueling. Because that's ultimately all he needs. He doesn't need to use combative TK to defeat Maul. (Mind you in all my posts, I stressed combative TK. There is zero proof he doesn't have any kind of TK knowledge prior. It's just that he decided to start using TK in combat later on.)

To become a Jedi Master, is to be the pinnacle of the Order. It's not just his Force Power and skill that made HoC a master. Notice how Anakin was denied the rank despite his vast power and skill. HoC by the standards required to be a Master has a deep connection and understanding of the Force.

Pinnacle of the Order:

In fact, HoC perfectly embodies the ideal Jedi philosophies. By not deciding to throw his lightsaber until the later stages of his career, he is perfectly embodying the words of wisdom that Obi Wan gave to Anakin:



Btw, lightsaber throw falls under TK. HoC's had that for a long time. It only became useful for our Hero later on. And Yoda's words can be read that way. HoC learned that it could be useful and started using it.

Spoiler:

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Simply saying “it won’t do Rancisis much good” should not be acknowledged as a counter argument in any form if it demonstrates his full ineptitude in wielding the force. You arguing HoC has force shield, force speed, force augmentation, and force sense without sources proving it is in on itself then something I could handwave, but it gets even more ridiculous when you then argue:

Like I said, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Why would this source need to mention shields and passive defenses and such when most SW stories don't? It's simply a mechanic of the universe. Would you argue that Onimi would get force choked by Kyle Katarn or someone else simply because we never see him use TK and the only extent to which he used the force was using his self taught art of the small and basic TK?

HoC not thinking saber throw is useful enough to learn and use until later isn't evidence that he can't do anything with the force save for the 3 powers the game gives us.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:As a full padawan going on solo missions HoC doesn’t know how to use telekinesis.

Again, note what my argument said. I made it clear I was referring to combative TK. Which he simply didn't need.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:But he does know the functions of, and counters of, an esoteric ability you’ve repeatedly talked about as “difficult”. You yourself have argued that most jedi ignore Malachia in favour of force push (one of the three abilities HoC in his lifetime has taken the effort to learn). But now you expect us to believe he has extensive knowledge of Malachia?

This point more or less debunks itself. Jedi see Malacia and how to apply it, decide it's not worth it, and ignore it for Force push. But they still know it exists. Which is important. Which is all that really matters. Knowing that you'll get hit from an attack that requires an enemy to transfer force energy into you and focus the force on a certain area. You can block that with simple mental defenses because the ability is intended to be used on thugs who have lower fortitude + can't put up mental defenses like Jedi can. And the cherry on top of it all is that Oppo is the master of the ability. Any Jedi should know to watch out for that within combat with Rancisis. Here's an analogy: Malacia can be viewed as a kick in the down south region. Oppo is someone who's infamous and well known within the order to kick someone in said region. When fighting him, that's the region you'll know to look out for. Except guess what, Force users have a better protected down south region and that goes double for the Hero. So not only will that be defended against passively, it's something HoC will look out for.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:False equivalency. 1. The functions of sith sorcery and malachia are different. 2. Anakin, unlike HoC, has extensive knowledge of the force. 3. Anakin has faced sith sorcery at the hands of Dooku and others before. 4. You have made no case why her sith sorcery couldn’t possibly function on Anakin.

1: They're both not easy to do and honestly when properly applied against a proper foe, they have similar decommissioning effects. If anything, Malacia is harder and less reliable given the expenditure compared to normal TP. Additionally, her spells shouldn't get past his defenses when they're up. Which is whole the point. Her debilitating spell won't get through a sufficiently powerful force barrier.
2: Proof that Anakin knows of the long dead art of sorcery and has counters for it specifically? Because the Jedi don't have access or knowledge of the holocron that Zannah learned it from.
3: You will have to provide those examples. And will have to show that it's the same kind that Zannah uses to make her enemies go mad. But if in those examples, Anakin resisted or overcame it, that is a big argument against your esoterics case.
4: I just assumed you held Anakin high enough that you wouldn't have him losing to someone who should be laughably below him given how much the Banites grew in the generations.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Its an anti-feat in the context its being used: Its an anti-feat that shows that HoC is likely the least knowledgeable and masterful force practitioner we have encountered in the history of SW, and that even to learn 3 abilities he has to spend his entire career as a jedi.

The game only cares about what abilities are useful in fights. It's not necessitated that he doesn't know more. Merely that it's not relevant in the fights within the game. And you seem to think "lightsaber throw" is its own force power somehow. It's just TK lol.

Furthermore, knowledge clearly doesn't matter since he beats characters who are among the most knowledgeable within the verse. If you put Oppenheimer in a ring with Mike Tyson, Oppenheimer isn't gonna win because he scales above Tyson in knowledge. Forget that, Put Jocasta Nu in the ring against someone like A'Sharad Hett. Nu ain't winning. Oppo's knowledge supremacy similarly doesn't matter because HoC can counter the only trump card Oppo has. As can most force users likely by just putting up defenses. Plus Oppo won't have time to transfer his own energy into HoC because he'll be too busy defending against the Hero's far superior skill with the blade.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:And then you proceed to post two quotes that say Dooku is arguably the best swordsman of the order as of TPM, and two which directly compare his combative ability to Yoda’s by having both beat Windu. Your argument of TPM Dooku ~ Yoda stands!

A quote calling him arguably the best doesn't necessitate that he's GOAT at the time. Hence the arguably lol. It only affirms that he's a top tier. As for the Windu quotes, they by no means necessitate Yoda~Dooku. All they necessitate is that both Yoda and Dooku are better than Windu.

Though Jedi Dooku ~ Yoda was never in my scaling chains. Nor is it in my bottom line. But hey, if you want further clarification, here's a quote I'm sure you've already seen.

Spoiler:

So he wasn't on par with Yoda as of TPM. But as we see, he was on par with him as of AOTC. Which means that instead of being a "Master on a par with Yoda", Dooku became a Sith Lord on par with Yoda. However, let me state again that my claim never was TPM Dooku~TPM Yoda. Lets hope you understand that now.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Because he is already old even for his own species, and has had centuries to reach his full potential. Not to mention that during most of his late life until the clone wars, he’s barely even used his lightsaber:
--
Infact most hadn’t seen his lightsaber for years:

None of this serves as proof that he didn't grow. While fighting provides faster growth for force users and Jedi, it in no way means that not fighting much/not using his saber causes you not to grow.

We also have Order wide growth quote. The Jedi have been growing as a whole in the 200 years before Palps and they're still growing post TPM. There is zero reason why this shouldn't apply to Yoda, the face of the Jedi.

Order growth:

Force users naturally grow. And one that is extremely force strong like Yoda should be no exception.

Age has not slowed Yoda down whatsoever. According to the quote you yourself sent. And according to H2H:

H2H:

So age isn't stopping his force knowledge and reserves from growing and there is zero evidence for a plateau in his growth. On the contrary, he should benefit from the Order wide growth.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Not to mention that its on you to prove that Yoda has grown. Since it is you making said claim.

It's only natural for Force users to grow. Outside some cases, the only direction most characters go is up. Sometimes they go down but stagnation is something that you'd have to prove. As such, growth is the default assumption and one that I've supported above.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:However if one has a quote of supremacy (Yoda) which you yourself use to put him above all jedi (which includes HoC), and the only comparison putting HoC > Yoda is a training duel (which Plo Koon also has bested Yoda in), then I see no reason not to still favour the quote. As there is no contradiction in HoC beating a holding back Yoda training a jedi knight. Especially when even Plo has beaten Yoda as well. And you hold Plo massively bellow Mace:

Again, Plo Koon's fight is unquantifiable. If it happened in the first place. Since it's just a rumor. HoC's is not. Yoda was going all out and then some. Why else would he bring esoterics into play.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:So either you hold Mace > Plo/HoC > Yoda, or you must admit that a training spar is not enough to indicate superiority.

Or option C (aka the right one) is that when the intent of the game is for HoC to beat Yoda fair and square while Yoda is going above his usual tactics, that HoC's duel is scalable. Furthermore, look back on the Shadow Hunter example. Yoda embarrassingly outperforms Plo and other masters while holding back. That is the clearest cut link we have between Plo and Yoda and it shows that Plo is nothing to Yoda. Compare that with HoC's very clear cut besting of Yoda and it becomes clear that one of the two is actually scalable.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:And ultimately, the issue with your argument here is: You provide quotes saying Yoda is the greatest jedi, and then you say “but he isn’t, since HoC is better”. So what you’re saying is that the quote is wrong. That invalidates the quote, and leaves it completely open for other exceptions. HoC beat Yoda in a spar and therefore is > him? Then Plo Koon is too. And then the quote doesn’t matter anymore, and HoC can no longer hide from Rancisis behind the supremacy quotes of other characters.

The quotes are a rule. HoC is the exception to the rule. Why? It's simple, his feat(s) unquestionably breaks him out of the bind or at least necessitates that he's as close as possible.

Plus, I don't need to prove why Rancisis is sub Yoda since your primary argument has him below both Yoda and Windu. And you've provided excellent evidence for him being a inferior of both. I don't have to bother responding to arguments that you didn't make. Your arguments against HoC in this point consist of a duel that is only a rumor (and lets be honest, it likely never happened) and "Why can't the guy my case presents as sub Yoda and Mace be above Yoda?"

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Nute_Chethray wrote:And once those are gone, its clear that HoC has no ability of his own, with the blade or the force, that will render him capable of fighting THE MASTER OF MALACHIA

If those are gone, which is a pipe dream, then HoC still has him beating Palpatine and MFV. (Please stay tuned for that. I promise I'll get to it real soon.)

And no you had it right the first time. HoC is as per your words a "Master with the blade" and "is one of the most skilled duelists in the PT"

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Mace needs an amp to challenge Sidious and Yoda doesn’t, so therefore Yoda is >>> Mace? Where does this massive gap come from? Why is it not Yoda > Mace. Why, it might even be Yoda ~ Mace, with Mace needing the amp just to bridge a miniscule gap between him and Yoda.

Their performances throughout the war say it all. Windu needing "all his skills" to defeat 22 BBY Ventress (As per the earlier scan), whereas Yoda in the same year, casually disarms her while she's prepared to fight. (Which would mean he easily broke through her Force defenses.)



It is supported in the episode guide too:

Episode Guide:

There's other points to look at but honestly, it's clear that Yoda is Windu's clear superior. By a wide margin. Just a default assumption at this point. Even assuming it's just ">" which you suggested with zero reason or evidence, it's still Yoda>Mace>Oppo. Rancisis looks far less favorable in comparison to Yoda.

I'd also have to ask: Why is it ridiculous for Yoda, the Grand Master of the Jedi to be far above Rancisis? Yoda has literally everything over Oppo to suggest a big gap. Just the way it is I'm afraid.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:You are however correct:

Aren't I always?

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Nute_Chethray wrote:while Mace has supremacy quotes over Rancisis, the gap between them is unknown. So the gap may once more be: Mace ~ Rancisis.

You say this with zero evidence. The only thing you could use to put Rancisis at Mace's tier is Sora's ego. You'd have to take a taunt at face value and ignore the fact that Palps won't let dark Jedi get too powerful in order to do that.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:So its just as likely that: Yoda ~ Mace ~ Rancisis as anything else. Its also massively more likely than having immense gaps between Yoda and Mace.

Yes, Windu who struggles more with an enemy that Yoda casually disarms is somehow Yoda's equal. And Rancisis, who is inferior to both of them is approximately at their level. Totes doesn't sound like nonsense.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Furthermore, one of the quotes you validate to show Yoda > Mace says that Mace is the second-greatest jedi. Which once again binds HoC. So if Yoda>>>Windu>(Unknown Amount)>Rancisis is true, then Yoda>>>Windu>(Unknown Amount)> HoC must also be true.

But did Rancisis defeat Yoda or Palpatine or MFV? No? Then that means he is bound whereas HoC can break out of the bind with his feats. Binds are like handcuffs, just because one person can break out of them, doesn't mean everyone can suddenly lol.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:The second quote you provided for Yoda > Mace, also has Palpatine/Sidious saying Mace is a greater warrior than Yoda, and Yoda just the better teacher, so it contradicts itself, with Sidious’s opinion (which is more neutral) and Mace’s (who’s biased towards his former teacher).

Lol. Palpatine is speaking from the point of view of a non force sensitive. (That's the role he plays when speaking to the Jedi.) He's not meant to be the one in the right at that moment. His pov isn't meant to be taken at face value compared to the guy that knows Yoda way better.

Plus, I'd take a concession from the man who lost spars against Yoda as solid evidence for him being below Yoda. In peace and in war.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Yet all your sources make Yoda ~ Mace ~ Rancisis just as possible.

Not in the slightest. The minimum is Yoda>Mace>Oppo. And as per your own argument, Rancisis is an inferior to Windu.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:*the superiors of Rancisis and HoC himself. Which means there’s nothing preventing Rancisis from doing the same.

There's nothing that would allow him to do the same either. Your very case has him as the Tertiary master. Aka below Mace and Yoda. Rancisis has to be sub Mace and Yoda. Whereas HoC can be more nebulous. And his feats speak for themselves. Even if you're able to call him defeating an esoterics weilding Yoda a fluke, we have his fights against Dooku, Palpatine, Grievous, and MFV. None of which are flukes (we'll get to those real soon.)

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Only if you’re willing to toss the quotes. And only if the feats actually show what you want them to. And if feats are so good, when will you be willing to show any feats of HoC being capable of blocking Malachia?

Sure I don't mind repeating myself: The fact that none of HoC's opponents yanked his saber from his hands or extinguished his blade or any number of things that can be done against characters without Force shields is clear evidence that not only does he have a force shield, but that it's potent enough that they couldn't break through his barrier. So they had to try (and fail) to challenge his mighty lightsaber + aug skills. And from there, since Malacia requires one to pour their force energy into a target, and such a thing wouldn't work when a character has a force shield, it's pretty obvious that our Hero can block Malacia.

Now when will you show me feats of Malacia being used against Force users and not just fodder thugs?

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Then, if they are subject to the same quotes, what prevents Rancisis from having the same gap as HoC from Yoda and Palpatine?

The fact that Rancisis is sub Base Windu. Who in turn is closer to Ventress without his big amp.

That and intent. HoC is intended to be above the Titans. You can try to lower him with supremacy quotes but he'd still need to be in that general class in order to defeat them like he did. The intent in stories that write Rancisis generally has him sub Yoda. The intent in HoC's sole appearance has him above the titans.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Being superior to Sora Bulq, who says he’s superior to Mace, despite Oppo being at his weakest, would be one of many such comparisons.

But that goes against your primary argument of Oppo being tertiary Master. Your suggestion is Oppo>>Tired Oppo>Sora~Oppo

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Nute_Chethray wrote: You’re currently using Yoda and Mace supremacy to limit Oppo and Bulq. Once you claim that they’re not supreme, then the Oppo-bulq-mace comparison has no counter.

Like I said, the only evidence for Bulq~Mace is him taunting Tholme and/or believing himself to be Mace's better. And you attempted to use Bulq fighting a Windu who wasn't using his skill as evidence that Bulq has saber parity. Whatever good Bulq did in that fight can be written off as him knowing Windu's moves since they're sparring partnets. There is literally nothing in that fight that paints Bulq in a favorable light.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Would like to ask you to choose. Are Yoda and Mace supreme, and both Oppo and HoC their inferiors? Or can both freely be put above them, and therefore your only point of argument for HoC supremacy is moot?

HoC is either above Yoda and Windo or close enough to them to defeat them. Rancisis has no such luxuries. As you'll need better evidence than a taunt for him to have parity with Windu. Simply put: HoC has better evidence putting him above Windu and Yoda than Oppo. And since you haven't provided any evidence for Oppo>Yoda, I'll just assume you smartly hold him below. And that via defeating Yoda, HoC can easily be put above Oppo.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:The ONLY sources saying Rancisis is inferior to them are the ones that also says HoC is inferior to them.

On the contrary. As you've shown us, chair scaling places places Rancisis below Yoda and Windu. So we have two means in which Rancisis is sub Mace and Yoda and zero means in which he's superior. Whereas I have HoC being superior as per his feats against the Titans. And the only thing against HoC is technicalities and quotes that don't have him explicitly in mind. (Unlike the quotes against Oppo)

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Nope. The worst case scenario for you is either that HoC and Oppo are both sub Mace, or that both are free to scale above Yoda. Those are also the best case scenarios. Since those are the only two scenarios.

Either we go with the quotes and HoC is sub Yoda and Mace but able to beat Yoda, meaning he's <~Yoda and Mace. Which leaves us with Rancisis~HoC as per chair scaling. Or we don't go with the quotes and HoC is > Yoda. Which leaves us with HoC>Yoda>Mace>Rancisis. Both are fine with me.

Simply put, if we ignore the quotes, HoC can still punch up. But you've locked Rancisis below Mace and Yoda with chair scaling and would need to come up with another argument that'll contradict your first post so you can scale him above Yoda.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Considering HoC fought Dooku after he had just fought Kenobi, Anakin and Yoda, and was completely exhausted after the first two, I would wager that anyone could.

This was not immediately after the Yoda fight. As that would be impossible. Mace assigns you to go after Dooku on Geonosis. And Yoda is in the room too. Both of those things would be impossible if this was right after Dooku's fight in AOTC. It's shortly after AOTC. Which is just fine for my scaling.



Dooku is operating at 100%. Furthermore, it's only Obi Wan who's defeated here in the game. And Obi as of then wasn't a hard fight for Dooku whatsoever so there really is no evidence that Dooku was tired against the Hero:

Also notice how Oppo is in the council meeting at this point in time. Windu says "very few can match" Dooku's skill. So even with Oppo fully available, the council sends HoC. Clear supremacy the Hero holds even as early as circa AOTC.



But let me provide even more evidence that the Dooku that HoC fought wasn't weakened:

More fearsome than ever:

Clearly the intent isn't for him to fight a tired old man.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:They had swords, which could also cut his tail. They had alot more swords than HoC had lightsabers infact.

Lightsabers are far more damaging than swords. Especially when wielded by one of the best swordsmen in the era like HoC. Attacking HoC with his tail is a very big risk for Oppo. Remember, Obi Wan got decommissioned for the entire fight with just a couple grazing strikes. Plus sabers cut through stuff like butter. Way better than whatever vibroswords the Anzati were using. And obviously touching the blade isn't gonna end well. If Oppo foolishly decides to use a tail attack, it's at the massive risk of taking a debilitating blow. Or just losing his tail.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Yet to provide any sources for Grievous’s speed, why its superior to that of Oppo, and why he strikes with a single weapon faster than Rancisis does with all five limbs at once. Infact when using all four sabers at once, grievous struck 20 times a second. Thats 5 strikes with each per second. Which is not alot at all considering you think jedi can speed-blitz even other jedi masters. To fight off a whole squad of anzati masters attacking him at once, Oppo must have reacted to more strikes than that at once.

Grievous was an opponent that could attack faster than even thought. An assault from him is rather deadly. 5 strikes in a second is insane. And considering speedblitzing takes one strike in less than a second, it lines up just fine.

As for the Anzati, the fight starts with Rancisis having the drop on the assassins, who were expecting him to be completely unaware.



Nowhere is he shown fending off multiple blades at the same time. He seperates them and takes em down rather methodically.



Also remember: Windu, Rancisis' superior even has great difficulty with The Good General. From his close fight in LoE to Elite Squadron having him rely on X2's help. HoC is able to deal with the speed of a person who pressed Rancisis' superior in that aspect.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:You say this, yet Maul repeatedly kicked Obi-wan and Jinn. Anakin and Obi-wan had a wrestling match. Anakin physically grabbed Dooku’s arms in ROTS. Etc.

These examples don't answer the question or prove why the advantage isn't moot like I said. The only thing similar to Maul's kicks that Rancisis is capable of is tail attacks. And I already explained why those aren't smart for him. (Massive target. And lightsabers will do far more damage than Anzati swords and are way more likely and capable of amputation.) In Dooku's example, Anakin only grabbed Dooku's hands after wearing him down. Which Rancisis won't be capablle of in our fight. And it started as a bladelock too.

I never said you can't use punches in duels. But extra hands don't offer some scale tipping advantage. It's extremely moot.

Especially because as we see in Oppo's final fight, he only really uses em to force push in multiple directions. And those pushes sure are hell won't be useful here considering Rancisis will need to gather energy to use em. And HoC will sense him gathering energy. Hell, even if he doesn't, as soon as Oppo even begins extending an arm, HoC will notice answer the move.

---

And now onto the Battle Med arguments:

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Nute_Chethray wrote:But we know for a fact this isn’t true, as we have seen jedi use it on the spot offensively before. For example we have Nomi Sunrider, at this point not having received any jedi training and never having practiced using the force at all, using it to cause two darkside beasts to attack each other:
--
On later occasions Nomi has shown the ability to casually use it to make a large amount of krath warriors fight each other:
--
These warriors are noted to be powerful in the force, and to fight using it:
--
It even seems implied that she actually has to use battle meditation combatively to defeat them, and that without it they could actually kill her. This would imply that for users of battle meditation it might even be a greater weapon combatively than regular fighting.

Also works on more powerful forceusers, as evidenced by Nomi incapitating Aleema Keto with battle meditation (note, its confirmed that Nomi is using battle meditation to do this):

I don't really see any indication that Oppo has Nomi's level of aptitude for the ability. Hers is practically similar to the Halcyons and their illusions and tutaminis. Save for the disadvantage part.

Natural Talent:

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Nute_Chethray wrote:And cause Mara Jade (a forceuser) to fall asleep before she even is on the same planet as him:

Proof that this is battle med being used by Joruus and not simple TP? Because Joruus uses it on Luke too. Why would you use battle med specifically when you're trying to coerce someone?

Use on Luke:

It clearly isn't battle med. It's just simple TP/force suggestion:

Spoiler:

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Nute_Chethray wrote:You could try to argue that this Nomi and Joruus are doing something Rancisis isn’t capable of, but frankly that would be utterly insensible. Nomi’s first feat is performed by a Nomi with no training whatsoever, and the latter two as a simple knight who is still learning how to use battle meditation. Oppo Rancisis is a jedi high council master who’s been using it for hundreds of years.

There is no proof that Rancisis' aptitude for the ability is greater. Lets get into it. Unlike what we see in the descriptions of when Nomi used the ability or even Joruus, Rancisis was using it exclusively for tactics. According to both himself (as per your scans of him trying to see the war) and multiple characters in the arc:

Spoiler:

What Rancisis is doing, what makes him such a threat in this arc is his plans. Never once is he said to be bolstering the Republic's morale or demoralizing the Separatists. The value he has is his knowing of a grander plan to take out the Sep Installation.

Plans:

I can already hear you saying "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" and that Rancsis was in fact amping Republic troops while debuffing Sep forces. Well that is disproven here:



Dooku thinks the Jedi are floundering after the loss of Rancisis. Which often happens when Jedi are cut off from the battle med power amp abruptly:

Cut off:

But as Vos clears up, it's just a part of their plan. So they didn't get cut off from his amp. Rancisis was neither amping his allies or demoralizing his enemies.

So with that, we can safely say Rancisis' aptitude isn't exactly the same kind as Nomi's.

If the Republic is able to take down the shield generator, then they basically insta win. Now if Rancisis had a power that would let him make enemies turn on each other, then he'd obviously use it and make em take out the the shield generator. Seeing as he doesn't, and seeing as we're told he explicitly uses it to just sense larger scale tactics, it's safe to say his aptitude isn't on the same level as someone like Nomi. Nor the same kind.

Shield:

As a further testament to everything, they just need the info/plan in Rancisis' corpse. The plan to take down the shield generator. That's the plan that he took 5 months to come up with. That's his greatest value.

Spoiler:

Anyway, this will all come more into play soon, for now, lets focus on your usage of Joruus:

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Then we also have the completely untrained Joruus C’baoth who can use battle meditation to completely control 37.000 crew members:

The crew he was using it on were likely Spaarti grown clones. Clones that were grown in like 20 days and taught with flash learning. Very uncomplicated and simple minds. You'll notice he didn't control Pellaeon, the Chimaera's captain. Why wouldn't he? The argument going on in that scene was between Thrawn and Joruus. Pellaeon was more or less a non factor. The clones C'Baoth took hold of were mere months old max. Controlling alike minds is easier generally. (Also the passage you sent is from The Last Command. Not Dark Force Rising.)

Nature of Thrawn Campaign Clones:

So while impressive, the feat is somewhat circumstantial.

Though it's not like Oppo could even do what Joruus did. The Jedi during the battle weren't being mind controlled or amped or anything of the sort through Oppo. K'Kruhk's support in Oppo's plan boils down to "I'm sure he knows what he's doing"

Spoiler:

Hell, Oppo isn't even controlling the clones here. The Jedi have to order them. So he isn't even using the infamous coordination aspect:

Jedi Orders:

So Oppo isn't doing what Joruus was nor is he doing what Nomi was. More to support what I've explained above regarding his specific usage.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Comparatively, Joruus’s power is the same as that of Jorus, but with less training and knowledge, who in turn was a mere jedi master:

Proof that he has less knowledge? The scan you yourself sent says he had "all the powers". The way that's worded, it can refer to both the powers Joruus knows as well as his overall force power.

The "fundamental faults" in question is not a lack of knowledge. As the very next line in the Fact File says, it's his mental instability.

Clone Madness:

His knowledge is also said to be "extensive". Furthermore, a Luke who's had 5 years of training post ROTJ also believes his knowledge could help form a New Jedi Order. And the only thing that was stopping that was C'Baoth's clone madness. So you will need to prove that C'Baoth is "completely untrained". Hell, there's nothing to suggest he's below his template in knowledge either. Clones sometimes have memories imprinted onto them. And we know Palpatine wanted a perfect replica of the master. Why wouldn't knowledge be involved in that?

Extensive Knowledge:

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Nute_Chethray wrote:If this is not enough to convince you of Rancisis’s superiority, note also that he has performed a feat vastly beyond the reach of any other Battle Meditation user, as he used it on the clone wars in its entirety, only prevented from doing so fully due to the darkside actively clouding him:

He tried to see the future, the bigger picture of the war..... and failed... Why is this beyond any other Battle Med user? None of them tried it. So why should we just assume they're worse? Why is him trying and failing meaningful at all?

Also thank you for providing more proof that Rancisis isn't able to scale above Yoda if we ignore supremacy quotes. As he wasn't able to properly see the factor at work, either.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:However the use of battle meditation is not purely damaging in nature. Rancisis also used it to “visualize victory” and to guide where to strike:

As I've covered: That is all he used it for. Its only value in his case. Only to try to outstrip the enemy in longer term tactics.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Lets talk about visualization first. You might argue that its simply an idea of a possible future. Its not. According to Quinlan Vos, it is “as real [...] as if he had lived it.”. He sees a possible future, and he makes it happen.

And remember, it took him like 5 months to build up the plans that amounted to blowing up a shield generator from the inside. Immense amount of prep for something so trivial. Months of setting that up too.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Now you might question how this helps him. But honestly that should be clear. In every battle, to every event, there are probably millions of different ways for it to unfold. Doesn’t even have to be combative, by simply going on a walk countless events could unfurl. Even if one looks at a duel between Yoda vs Jinn there are many different possibilities for how it goes. We both think Yoda is much stronger, and if they dueled infinite times Yoda would beat him almost every time. But its only an almost.

That still means Yoda is better. Everything favors him in a fight so we'd say he's the victor.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Since like I said earlier, forceusers aren’t gods among men. They make mistakes, and if they do they can be punished like anyone else. Even Luke Skywalker is not invincible:
--
And as we can see this is evidenced by his inferior in Desann ragdolling him and actually defeating him in their duel:

Completely irrelevant to our debate. Plus the scan itself says Desann was a legit threat even if Luke wasn't surprised.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Now as you know, I am already arguing that Oppo is HoC’s superior, in power, skill and due to Malachia. But even if they were comparable, or if somehow someone could possibly imagine that HoC is superior, or even if you think that HoC could casually stomp Rancisis, do we truly think that the gap is such that its impossible for Oppo to win? Impossible for HoC to trip and stab himself with his lightsaber like a true Maul? Impossible for HoC to have a lapse in concentration or slightly overreach? To slip up his guard for just one moment? To underestimate or not notice Greedo and get shot in the back while dueling Oppo? To focus on Greedo and not notice Oppo using Malachia? If you do believe HoC is massively superior to any jedi in the history of SW, and is truly invulnerable to any and all possibilities, then of course HoC wins this debate, even if I scaled Oppo above Grandmaster Luke or DE Sidious it would not matter then. If you however think that HoC isn’t immortal, then there are ways for Oppo to win. And with battle meditation, especially with the darkside no longer clouding him, he could visualize those ways, and then enforce them. And with that, victory already belongs to Jedi Master Oppo Rancisis, Master of Battle Meditation, before HoC can even draw his blade.

What you wrote above could be used to say Oppo beats Yoda or Crucible Luke or The Ones or the Bedlams or any list of far superior foes (HoC included). For it to be the case, you have to believe that battle med is some no limits fallacy of gargantuan proportions. That is not how it works. Furthermore, it took months for Oppo to have that exact "visualization" of victory in his head/corpse.
For it to have a meaningful purpose in this hypothetical fight, you would need one of these:

1. Oppo has prep time that would make Batman blush. A long time before the start of the fight.
2. Within less than a second, Oppo would need to visualize the 0.000001% chance/times of him winning the fight and immediately start putting that into place, and start coordinating and telling Greedo what to do.

1 isn't possible. This debate is about a fight on neutral ground. 2 is also not possible. One's focus within a fight should be on the fight itself. Not some fantasy in which you could plausibly win the fight. Dedicating time and attention to battle med and visualizing is taking that time and attention away from defending yourself. Battle med as Oppo performs it is perfect for battlefields or tacticians. But a detriment within a duel.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:You have argued that regular Greedo is below the competence of a basic sentient being. And whether that is true or not is completely irrelevant to my actual argument. What is relevant, is that you on your own volition wrote “Flash of Competence Greedo > Basic Sentient Competence”. Which means that you hold Flash of competence Greedo above the average sentient beings. Now just how good is Flash of Competence Greedo?
--
Greedo destroyed Gorm with a headshot. A single shot. This is extremely impressive, since Gorm is described as invincible, and a fortress:

You're kidding, right? The scan you sent literally says: "Gorm's disadvantage was his belief in his own invincibility. He thought he was a fortress. He thought he was unbeatable."

That is all his opinion lol. According to the passage itself.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:However more importantly, Gorm previously had tanked a lightsaber stroke to his head in a duel with Qui-Gon Jinn:
--
And then proceeded to take two lightsaber strikes to the head from two opponents at once:
--
And even after that, after his helmet melted and fused to his neck, he was still screaming and trying to fight for a few moments before he was incapitated:

Qui Gon and Adi weren't exactly trying to kill him. They just wanted to incapacitate him. Were they in kill mode, it'd be much different. They only went after the helmet to take away his fighting capability:

Targeting system:

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Meanwhile with Greedo, a single shot instantly downed Gorm:

While Gorm had his back to Greedo and didn't even know he was in the room.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:We can hardly argue that a blaster is more powerful than a lightsaber-blade. So with one shot Greedo exceeded the performance of Adi Gallia and Qui-Gon Jinn hitting Gorm with lightsabers thrice despite having an inferior weapon and being further away. In other words, Flash of Competence Greedo is in truth FLASH OF BRILLIANCE GREEDO.

Greedo was shooting to kill. The Jedi were striking to incapacitate. Plus as I've said, it was with an enemy whose back was turned. It was a cheapshot. And not only was it a cheapshot, it was a cheapshot that was made possible due to a weapon that Greedo would not have access to within our scenario. Mind you, this weapon was one that had notable sights that would have provided an advantage:

Sights:

What are we left with? A Greedo superior to the one you have access to is able to cheapshot Gorm with a weapon that is noted for its incredible sights in an uncharacteristic moment of competence. TCW Greedo will not have access to Goa's blaster nor its accuracy advantage. He furthermore will be inferior to the Greedo that shot Gorm anyway. This whole argument has no meaning.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Now how do we make sure this shot-hitting and marksmanship-legend version of Greedo comes to action in this matchup?

Well you can't since this Greedo is years after TCW and used equipment that TCW Greedo will not have access to.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Simple enough: Battle Meditation. Rancisis can with battle meditation guide Greedo; make the future in which he hits the perfect shot or shots on HoC reality. And suddenly, HoC is facing a dangerous bounty hunter shooting at him while also fighting a jedi high council master with a lightsaber, Malachia, and battle meditation.

Already went into the whole battle med nonsense above. The more likely case is that HoC kills Greedo and then goes onto fight Rancisis. As both common sense and HoC's tendency to fight non force users first imply that he'd take out the smaller fish first before taking on the other small fish. Plus, HoC can just use FORCE PUSH to knock Greedo out without difficulty and then focus on Rancisis.

Also before you say it: No the small time in which it'll take to down Greedo won't be an opening for Malacia. HoC already knows to be prepared for it. Thanks to Rancisis' clout and fame within the order that you've presented in your first post.

And now onto the final section of your argument. The one I've most been looking forward to!

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Finally, to finish off this post, I want to return RNG’s favour and pointing out all of HoC’s failures and defeats. A major point of your arguments for HoC’s superiority over Rancisis is scaling him above Yoda, Sidious and MFV. I have already explained why the Yoda fight is illegitimate. But what if I told you; HoC lost to Sidious and MFV?

Let us begin with the first fight: vs Sidious. You claimed that HoC beat Sidious, and that this proves he’s at the very least comparable to the titans:
--
But that is false, since he never did beat Sidious. Sidious won their encounter. Perhaps HoC managed to outduel Sidious, and that is certainly impressive.

He did outduel Palpatine so I'll stop you right there. Because guess what? That makes HoC a Titan. That's literally all The Hero needs to have Titan status. Why do you think Office Mace is held as a Titan? It's because he beat Palpatine. I could stop here since you've admitted that HoC outdueled Palpatine, (which is a Windu and Yoda + tier feat already) but lets keep going.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:But Sidious has never been the greatest duelist.

Citation needed. Because a ton of other sources say otherwise:

Palpatine is one of the greatest duelists:

There's more but I think that's enough for now lol.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:His true power lies with other things. And no I do not refer to force lightning, nor to telekinesis or telepathy, or anything like that. His true powers are lies and persuasion. Was it with dueling that Sidious caused the destruction of the jedi? Was it with force lightning that he caused the creation of the empire? No, he is a liar, a manipulator, and that is why he defeated the jedi order:
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The thing that makes sith different from mere dark jedi are that they are the most manipulative, most malevolent, of all the followers of the dark side:

Absolutely none of that precludes Palpatine from being a top tier duelist. You can be an absurdly good duelist and an absurdly good manipulator. These things aren't mutually exclusive.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:And even in combat, its noted that regular lightsaber combat is judged by skill. Advanced combat by force powers. And the sith win fights by breaking the jedi’s spirit; by lies and manipulation, not by their skill nor their power:

Nothing in your quote suggests they win by manipulation specifically. It simply says they win combat by breaking their enemy's spirit. Palpatine lost the duel. So he didn't succeed in breaking The Hero's spirit. So he lost. Simple as.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Ultimately, how did their duel end? Did the so-called Hero of Coruscant destroy Sidious and rid the galaxy of the dark side? No. Like Mace Windu and like Yoda, HoC lost his duel before it even began,

In what world would this constitute a loss? He defeated his foe in a spectacular display of saber skill.



Yoda and Office Mace are also Titans. And like I said, the latter especially is given that status because of his performance against Palpatine. As such, the same is extended to HoC.

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Nute_Chethray wrote:for with the slightest effort of persuasion on Sidious’s part he left Coruscant to the clutches of the darkside:
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Mace Windu bested Sidious with their blades, but he had long lost since Sidious had put everything in place for Anakin’s fall. Yoda matched Sidious with the blade and the force, but he had long lost since Sidious had already destroyed the jedi and the republic. The Hero of Coruscant bested Sidious with his blade, but he had long lost, since there was nothing he could do to stop neither him nor Lord Vader.

This entire argument is a massive nothingburger. Palpatine failed to break the Hero's spirit and lost the duel. The Hero then went on to fight bigger prey. And that means he somehow lost against Palpatine because Palps told the Hero where Anakin was? In what way does that stop the hero from scaling to or above Palpatine tier?

It's one thing if you're claiming that Palpatine held back just so he can send the Hero after Vader as a test or something. But that was not Palpatine's intent. He sent the 501st (The Republic's best forces) to kill the Hero and when they failed, he took up the blade himself. There's zero indication that held back his tier 9 dueling skills in this fight:

You will die:

This entire argument boils down to "he might have won but he didn't because I say so"

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And finally we are at the Grand Finale. The point I've been most looking forward to!!!

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MFV time baby

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Now onto MFV. Unlike Sidious he is not yet a manipulator or liar. He is a pure engine of destruction. So why does HoC not scale above him for beating him? Because while HoC beat one version of MFV, he specifically has to do it before MFV unleashes his full power, for at that point his assault becomes unblockable and capable of oneshotting:

You haven't any idea what you've unleashed upon us.

I'll start with a simple correction: No. MFV in that hyper state cannot oneshot the Hero. He just does absurd amounts of damage with that unblockable strike. He's still defeat-able after that barrage:

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Nute_Chethray wrote:Making clear that HoC is in no way comparable to him. It only becomes worse because this is before he destroys the seperatist council and chokes Padme, and truly falls to the darkness. So: the MFV Kenobi fought > the MFV HoC fought > HoC > holding back MFV.

Neither of the MFVs the Hero fought are below the one Kenobi fought. For one, you haven't supported your claim about this being pre sep council murder MFV. The fight fits rather well post sep murder in fact. Also, you haven't proven that he has any sort of growth after choking out Padme.

At any rate, it doesn't matter since the "more fearsome than ever" quote I posted earlier debunks the notion that this MFV was inferior. So the base MFV in the fight can be held at the tier he was in the movie or better.

More fearsome than ever:

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But I won't stop there since you've given me something too good:

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DARK HEGEMONY:

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Anakin when he enters that hyper state is on a qualitatively different level than we have ever seen. Not only does he get darker, his lightsaber turns red. His big strike speaks for itself.

Now... this is much greater than just a power thing. Lightsabers changing colors like this mid combat is just utterly insane. It's something we don't see anywhere else. Anakin is basically rewriting the simple laws of the universe for himself at the moments he enters this hyper state. Similar to the Zonakin moment:

Zonakin:

Anakin even temporarily breaks the dark side cloud around him and Obi Wan:

Cloud:

And of course, the Zonakin stuff is obviously better than his flash of brilliance in AOTC. Anakin's had far more growth, training, mastery, etc since AOTC. Can wield the Chosen One power far better. And on a much greater plane.

So Anakin enters his Chosen One state. His flash of brilliance. The zone. Whatever you wanna call it. The state in which he emanates his will for his outcome. And it's not just flowery writing. It's said that he will "control the universe"



(This scene was only removed due to Sith Spirit lore. Not due to what Revan says)

https://www.starwars.com/video/ghosts-of-mortis-episode-featurette

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There's more but I think that paints a clear enough picture

The quality of the state as we see it in the fight against the Hero is way better. His dark will emanates so hard it literally changes his saber color. He has one goal. One wish. And that is to strike the Hero down.

I will dub this iteration of Anakin/Vader as DARK HEGEMONY VADER

And even with all that, the Hero is still able to fend off the onslaught and even tank the final unblockable strike. This goes beyond just a power level thing. With his Chosen One power and/or hax, Anakin decides that he will kill the Hero. That he will strike him. That may as well be a death sentence from the universe itself. Yet the Hero overcomes it. So what we have is:

-MFV that Kenobi fought < ~ MFV that The Hero fought < The Hero
-HoC (being able to fend off the onslaught) < ~ DARK HEGEMONY VADER > All other iterations of Anakin/Vader ~ Being able to control the universe/impose his will > > Oppo's shitty visualization

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Nute_Chethray wrote:And while these are the most relevant examples, they are not the only ones. HoC beats Maul, but does nothing to stop him from killing Jinn and dooming the jedi. He beats Jango twice, but does nothing to prevent him from leading Kenobi to Kamino or nearly killing Mace. He beats Dooku, but he still escapes with the death star plans and so the clone wars continues. He defeats Grievous, but does not manage to capture or kill him and end the clone wars. Then comes Sidious and MFV, both who’m he fail to do anything against. And even Suit Vader continues unhindered. In Star Wars, every character’s existence is relevant to either the Will of the Force or to the Dark Side, everyone affects events so that the Will of the Force may be done. Oppo has guided many jedi, saved many lives in battles, and even his death led to Vos defeating Sora Bulq. Greedo threatening Han pushed him to help the Rebellion. Everyone matters.

Except the Hero of Coruscant. Remove him from the Star Wars galaxy, and nothing changes. Noone’s life gets different. The sith won’t be hindered. The jedi won’t be helped. Its almost as if he never existed at all…

The Hero does not need to be a big player in the universe. All he needs is the victories he has. After all, who cares about universal significance when you can withstand the death sentence of THE DARK HEGEMONY or defeat the greatest foes of that era?

(Before you attempt to pull out the "gameplay mechanics" card, I'll remind everyone that a substantial percent of Cheth's arguments here rely on skewed readings of gameplay/game aspects.)

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Conclusions:

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-The Hero is a high tier duelist within the era (if not GOAT). His spar with Yoda is usable for scaling as his fight with Palpatine and MFV, which is ultimately what matters the most at the end. Cheth's addressing of Palpatine's defeat amounts to "but he didn't kill palpatine after he outdueled him so he lost"
-Malacia isn't so no limits fallacy like Cheth argues. It like almost any force power can be countered and has to go through defenses. Cheth's argument that the Hero has no defenses are also very conjecture based. And to believe them would be to believe that the Hero's enemies experienced an immense iq drop since they decided not to force ragdoll a defenseless opponent. As that is complete nonsense, and given what we're told about force defenses and shields, it's a no brainer that the hero like anyone else would have defenses and given his feats against the enemies he's dueled, it should be more than enough to deal with Rancisis.
-HoC's scaling is completely valid whether you bind him below supremacy quotes or not. He has feats to prove he is of the Titan class. And similarly, if we're to remove all quote binds on Oppo, he still can't scale to the Titan class given much of Cheth's argument for him relies on him being sub Yoda and Mace.
-HoC's lack of esoteric mastery in no way precludes him from being Rancisis' superior. It just means he built his skill tree for a much smarter purpose.
-Cheth's battle med arguments completely misunderstand what actually happened in some instances and gives Oppo powers that aren't even really in his skillset. It's yet another attempt to turn an ability into a no limits fallacy. Visualizing is its own can of worms. Who's to say he can visualize without needing to sit down to meditate and focus? Who's to say it won't take more time than it's worth to get the proper visualization. And who's to say that visualization means anything? If the Hero can withstand the DARK HEGEMONY, this is nothing.
-Cheth has also introduced contradictory viewpoints: First being that Oppo doesn't have to be sub Yoda despite his entire argument saying Oppo is number 3. He says The Hero knows Anakin's fighting style and the styles of other masters and then goes onto say the Hero only knows 5 moves. Of which he also provides zero proof. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence only when it applies to HoC.
-The Greedo argument you've spent two posts on can't even be used given they're a later iteration of a character with extremely circumstantial advantages that won't be afforded in this match. As such, Greedo dies I'm afraid.

To close this off, I would like to state something similar to what Cheth has said but in a more accurate way:

One of our combatants was created and exists solely to win. And win he does. Constantly. Even against THE DARK HEGEMONY. Without circumstances most of the time too. The other combatant was created as a background prop who exists more or less as a sacrificial lamb within the context of one story. You would have to rely on multiple no limits fallacies and arguments that go against intent to raise him to the former combatant's level.

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That concludes my third and final post. Best of luck with your post and may the best man win the judgment stage. This has been a fun and unique debate. Thank you for debating me.

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Great counter my friend, its a sad thing that I have to debunk THE DARK HEGEMONY in its infancy, its like killing baby Hitler, a necessary evil, but an evil nonetheless

Before I start I want to make one thing clear: as this is my conclusion post, and RNG will be unable to respond, I will avoid making new arguments except in cases where RNG made new ones in his own conclusion that I have to respond to. Other than that, any arguments will be closing thoughts or simply making previous arguments more concrete or precise. As such I will also not be responding to every single claim in the fashion I did in my main post, since such things should be left out of the conclusion. If I respond to a claim its either:

1. Since RNG made a new one in his conclusion that I want to address.
2. Since I feel the need to contextualize/correct RNG on claims I made in my main post that he has since misrepresented.

Any claim that I do not respond to is one I believe is already answered by either other parts of this post or by my previous ones.

Fixing inaccuracies

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This part is purely about pointing out inaccuracies in how RNG presents evidence/arguments. Since again this is a conclusion I won’t point out every single one, but rather just the most horrendous/important ones (although since there are quite a few it will sadly be not as short as I would like).

RNG wrote:You do realize that this strengthens my bottom line, right? Tionne's standing is not necessarily due to her power level. Similarly, Oppo's standing within the order isn't necessitated to be due to power levels. Whereas Windu and Yoda have supremacy quotes for clout and power levels/saber skill.

This is misrepresenting the context of the argument to an incredible degree. Three things to point out in terms of context:
1. Tionne was mentioned by you as a reason for why Rancisis’ power is not necessarily reason for his high standing. However you present it as if I mentioned it first, when in fact I was responding to it.
2. You failed to respond to the fact that Luke’s order =/= the CW order, and therefore different rules/reasons for clout apply, which was the most important part of my counter.
3. You failed to at all read or respond to what I posted. The quote I posted, which was written by yourself, explicitly puts Tionne as “A special case”, with an explicit reasoning given (by yourself) for why she was given such a high rank despite being an unremarkable jedi otherwise. A “special case” would explicitly be a case out of the ordinary. Meaning that it could only apply to another master if said master also has reason to be considered “a special case”.

RNG wrote:Wisdom is great but it's not necessitated to correlate with power levels and overall standings.

You argue that wisdom is irrelevant to combat, yet two paragraphs down you post a quote of Yoda explicitly saying that knowledge of the force is INFINITELY better than technique. It's almost as if the force is a mystical energy field which can be wielded to a much greater degree with knowledge of the mystical energy field.

RNG wrote:Kenobi isn't of consequence to my argument. Plus the iteration of him that beat MFV isn't the same as beginning of ROTS Obi Wan, so it's even more inconsequential. I'll get into the MFV stuff soon since it raises HoC even more than I had originally thought. Stay tuned.

Not an inaccuracy but something I must point out: I made an argument that Oppo > Kenobi, and said that you were the one holding that opinion. You do not deny it at all. Which means that Oppo > Kenobi stands uncontested. Now the only thing that would stand in the way of Oppo also beating MFV (who is on the level of Sidious and Yoda) like Kenobi is the fact that you say it's a different Kenobi than the one from the beginning of ROTS. However there are three questions that must be asked here:
1. Is there any proof of Kenobi having grown stronger from BoROTS to Mustafar? I do not know of any quotes saying as much, and you provided no quotes for it nor any argument for it. In other words; this is an unsupported claim.
2. Did Kenobi get a raise of some sort after BoROTS? Its not like he changed chairs afterwards.
3. Is his supposed growth enough to bypass the gap between Oppo and BoROTS Kenobi?

Since no proof was provided for “its not the same kenobi”, I see no reason not to hold Oppo as capable of replicating or even surpassing Kenobi’s Mustafar showing. By being able to beat MFV, he would automatically be just as free from any supremacy quotes you claim HoC to be.

RNG wrote:And why is it more difficult to use a force push against force users? Because they can actually defend against it with their barriers/shields. Why is it more difficult to use a lightsaber against a force user? Because they train to fight with and defend against sabers. Using an attack on someone who can easily defend against it means the attack won't mean anything or be all that useful in the long run.

And Rancisis is trained to defend himself from force push/lightsaber combat more than HoC is trained to defend himself from Malachia/Battle meditation (he’s not trained to do so at all), meaning its harder for HoC to defend himself than for Oppo.

RNG wrote:Why wouldn't he? It's all but necessitated. He wouldn't have been able to beat the high tier force users that he did if he didn't have a good barrier. The fact that his enemies were never able to violate his barrier with TK or other attacks more than supports that. If his barrier wasn't up to par against his opponents, they could just yank his saber away or forcefully turn it off or any number of things. To quote PoD again: "A Force-shield was the most basic-and most necessary-protection there was."

Its a game in which none of the opponents ever use TK bar to throw objects ESB Vader style, so he doesn’t need a barrier to block it. Besides: Again, HoC does not have force shield. And ever since the second argument of your opener you have agreed (worse, you even were the one to bring it up in the first place) to the premise that HoC only has abilities that he has in-game.

RNG wrote:Force users can sense when other force users are exerting themselves greatly or getting ready to exert themselves greatly. (Which is what Malacia requires of Oppo.) It's in the base of every force user. Hell even untrained ones can sense presences. To sense exertion isn't much different.

HoC is more than strong enough in the Force to sense something so simple.

1. HoC does not have the ability to use force sense as per you using abilities he has in-game only. 2. Sensing an esoteric ability he’s never seen in use before is not “simple”. 3. The force has repeatedly been used on forceusers without one noticing. For example, as I’ve already shown, Joruus had caused Mara Jade to fall asleep before she even entered orbit of the planet was on, and she didn’t notice at all. She only survived since Palpatine’s message woke her up: 4. Initiates are also taught to use telekinesis, something HoC only learned a while after becoming a padawan. 5. Telekinesis is also an often instinctive ability non-trained people can use, yet as a full padawan HoC still did not know it.

RNG wrote:I don't need to argue "game mechanics" since it's the most basic and necessary protection there ever was. It just is a thing with every force user. Do really think someone like Dooku wouldn't yank HoC's saber out of his hands if he could? It's extremely in character for any of HoC's opponents in the game to do so. HoC did have his barriers/shields/defenses up.

Yet you made the argument that his available abilities are based on which he has in-game in your opener.

RNG wrote:But sure I'll humor you. HoC was able to sense Palpatine getting ready to use his lightning. And was able to block multiple bursts of it. Among various other examples.

You can visibly see it coming beforehand, even holds his hand still and out for about a second before it starts coming. The player does not have force sense, nor does the game warn them. You can clearly react to it.

RNG wrote:To hammer the point home, the very essence of dueling as we see it in SW is both a contest in the conventional physical realm and in the Force. Force defense is always just as present as saber defense. Fights are determined by who can outmaneuver or overpower their opponent on both dueling prowess and force defense and sense.

Yet in duels like TPM, Ulic vs Kun, Dooku vs AotC Anakin (after he saved Kenobi), etc. Noone uses force abilities. There are plenty examples of people not using the force in duels. Your only argument for everyone always using the force is a single statement in a single novel.

RNG wrote:Your argument is that it's some no limits fallacy that ignores basic universe rules like Force barriers. With how you're attempting to paint the ability, Oppo could instantly take down literally any character in the verse. Your argument might as well paint him and anyone that can use Malacia as the GOAT force usuer.

Just because Oppo can affect a neophyte in the force like HoC doesn’t mean he can bypass the defences of masters of the force like Yoda or Sidious lol. They have far deeper knowledge, understanding, and mastery than someone who learned that a lightsaber can leave your hand after becoming a jedi master. Clear misrepresentation of my argument.

RNG wrote:So a one size fits all power that would plausibly allow someone of Bruck Chun tier to instantly take down Crucible Luke exists and..... Almost every single Jedi finds it useless? Sounds like a stretch.

No jedi has ever found it useless. Oppo having mastered it alone makes him one of the most respected jedi of the order. The reason regular jedi don’t take the time to master it is specifically because its easier to learn force push or mind tricks. You don’t need to take a professor's degree in math if all you expect to use math for is for daily things like keeping track of prices in a grocery store. Doesn’t mean that you think higher levels of math is useless. Note that this is also specifically in the context of Oppo telling younger jedi with lesser knowledge and lesser patience about an ability that seems difficult to master.

RNG wrote:They have every reason to learn an ability that (by your logic) would let them instantly take down Palps. Even if there's a narrow chance of them meeting him, the potential benefits far outweigh any reasons not to learn the ability. Hell, absolute mastery isn't even necessary. Just need to be able to use it.

Never claimed it could take down Palpatine. My argument specifically is centered around:
- It being an ability HoC has never faced, never learned, and has no counter to
- HoC being ridiculously inept at using the force
- HoC having no deeper knowledge of the force

RNG wrote:This is a wonky example lol. Storms are never given the short straw in comparison to other abilities like Malacia explicitly is. If Malacia could ignore force defenses and insta-defeat anyone, then it would be used infinitely more than we see. What you're painting it as is a miracle pill that would defeat any threat with ease.

Never has malachia been given the short end, its just harder to learn than other abilities. And again, entirely misrepresenting my case.

RNG wrote:The fact that he defeated characters who are faster than Oppo more than speaks for itself as far as HoC's speed is concerned. You'd have to argue that all his opponents somehow held back and let him win if you think his speed isn't on the Titan+ class. And Oppo is laughably below that class as per intent and various supremacy quotes. HoC on the other hand is beating Titans.

Proof they’re faster? KFV was not even faster than Drallig’s padawans in ROTS, he outskilled and overpowered them. Speedblitz gaps rarely exist in Star Wars, this isn't DragonBall. Also same supremacy quotes attempted to be used against Oppo apply to HoC.

RNG wrote:The "some ways" are clearly the only important ones in determining a fight lol. Plus Tholme caught and defeated that Master's student. Whereas he got curbstomped hard by Dooku. Safe to say he's just coping. Lastly, the master dodging one attack is not an indicator of parity lol.

You say that the skills Tholme says the student is better at than Dooku are not related to combat. Then you say that he’s just coping by saying the student is more skilled than dooku in ways since Dooku beat him in combat, implying he’s saying the student is better in a fight. You seem indecisive.

RNG wrote: Lastly, the master dodging one attack is not an indicator of parity lol.

But I thought your argument for HoC’s speed is that anyone who’s more powerful than someone else can speedblitz their inferiors? Must he not then be a perfect equal to Tholme in power to dodge his attack?

RNG wrote:But lets recap: She """pressed""" a Vos who was holding back and trying to pump her for info, ran away because a direct confrontation is not favorable for her, deactivated his saber with a cheapshot with the cortosis gauntlet and ultimately still got ragdolled when he brought the force fully into play. Aaaaaand then finally once he's taking the info from her..... she reveals exactly what happened. She gives him the face of the man who hired her along with Viento: Sora Bulq.

She clawed his lightsaber hilt to destroy it, thats not a cheapshot:



Also complete misrepresentation of what happened, she gave him what she was told to give him; she intentionally let Vos find out Bulq was there to trick him into thinking Bulq was the sith lord:

RNG wrote:Sidious and Maul didn't disengage and run away to get the drop on their opponents. This assassin did. You're confusing cheap moves as proof of combative parity.

Maul moved through three entire rooms during the fight and explicitly did split up Kenobi and Jinn lol.

RNG wrote:Furthermore, they thought they were attacking an unsuspecting target. But he knew they were there as soon as they entered his room. So a good portion of his kills can be attributed to him having the drop on them.

He told them he knew they were there before he even started moving lol. He didn’t catch them off-guard if they attacked him after he alerted them:

RNG wrote: It's noted that Windu only used all his skills (which likely also includes saber skill mind you) when he fought Ventress. So it's more likely that he was holding back against Bulq. That or Bulq's performance against Windu is a circumstantial thing only due to knowing his moves and doesn't have much bearing on overall power levels.

The word “only” was added to you, a blatant attempt of altering the meaning of a quote. The quote saying “Mace windu had to use all his skills to defeat [Ventress] [...]” does not prevent him from having to use all his skills to beat Sora too.

RNG wrote:Furthermore, Mace was stated to be distressed during his fight with Bulq. Sora was like a brother to him. The reason Bulq did so well was because Mace didn't wanna fight him. But when Windu got serious and realized the real fight was against Ventress, he instantly slapped Bulq down.

Kenobi also didn’t want to fight MFV. Yoda didn’t want to fight Dooku. Luke didn’t want to fight Vader. Doesn’t mean they held back, and didn’t prevent them from picking the fight in the first place.

RNG wrote:Palpatine being weary of the growth of disciples and limiting their power and/or growth has been a thing since the 90s (see Geth). And it fits his character. If Bulq was a serious threat, Palps would have him slapped down.

Gethzerion was the leader of a seperate forceusing tradition, and he didn’t kill her, he trapped her on Dathomir. And the quote says they’re not allowed to advance to his power lol. You argue that Yoda is far above Mace;

RNG wrote:Yoda>>>Windu>(Unknown Amount)>Rancisis

So Sora doesn’t have to be Sidious level to be above him either.

RNG wrote:Windu wanted to understand why Bulq fell to the dark side. Why would he just immediately paste him? And even after their talk, judging from the artwork, Windu hardly appears to be taking the fight seriously. Judging by his facial expressions. And look back to the Jaden Korr quote I posted in my opener. Dueling correlates with Force power. And given what his force power is capable of against Bulq, I see no reason he can't do the same thing in sabers. The only prayer Bulq would have then is knowing Windu's moves but that does not mean he scales to Windu tier.

“Judging by his facial expression”; no explanation for why his facial expression somehow shows he’s not taking the fight seriously. The fact that he got slammed through a wall in their fight with telekinesis, and is trying to save multiple padawans and knights with Sora in his way, is far more telling of him being serious than simply stating “facial expressions” and not making any further argument on it.

RNG wrote: And look back to the Jaden Korr quote I posted in my opener. Dueling correlates with Force power. And given what his force power is capable of against Bulq, I see no reason he can't do the same thing in sabers. The only prayer Bulq would have then is knowing Windu's moves but that does not mean he scales to Windu tier.

“Correlates” is not the same as “if you can win with force, you can win with sabers.” Guess Gethzerion, the hidden one, Unu’thul, Abeloth, joruus, etc. all are top-tier duelists.

RNG wrote:Yet earlier and later in your posts, you imply that Windu is > Oppo. Hell, that is a massive crux in chair scaling too. Clout transfers to overall standing in your view. Windu is above Oppo in clout. So your proposed argument is:

Windu>~Bulq (Since he "matched" Windu and believed himself to be better) < Exhausted Oppo (since he didn't wanna face him directly) < < Prime Oppo < Windu

For chair scaling to work, Bulq can't be Windu tier. That or Bulq is above Oppo but just used a cheap move anyway.

I’m happy to let chair scaling be debunked by the fact that Sora and Oppo scale above Windu. That's just about the only valid counter to chair scaling I have seen you make. But of course, for that to apply, you have to accept the fact that Oppo >>>> Tired Oppo >> Bulq > Windu.

Or of course, we could also point out the fact that Oppo has been gone from the jedi temple for months and could have been promoted once he returned

RNG wrote:Because they're not mutually exclusive. Whipping out a special/different than usual move in the middle of combat to surprise your enemy fits within the context of what Chuck Norris tells us.

So you’re arguing that HoC will surprise Oppo by using singular moves from 5 people, one of which Oppo has known for centuries, four of which he has known their entire career, especially Kenobi who he even directly supervised the training of:



And then try to argue that HoC will be perfectly fine fighting an opponent with an entirely unique fighting style, and who has two types of mystical techniques even most masters don’t know anything about.

RNG wrote:Also, Oppo knowing the Jedi in question doesn't really mean anything. HoC learned their magnum opuses. We have zero indication that Oppo did the same. Merely knowing someone isn't enough to counter the moves advantage that HoC has. Unless you can prove that Oppo knows how to use all those moves as well.

He doesn’t simply know the jedi. As shown before, Rancisis was one of the head instructors of jedi until Mace came along, even being one of the masters that trained Dooku himself. We also see that even when Mace was a master, Oppo was still training jedi like Kenobi. Its cope to say that HoC would know their fighting styles better since he trained once with each, than Oppo would know their fighting styles because he trained many of them and has known them for longer than HoC has lived.

RNG wrote:Are you trying to imply that the fact that it's blockable makes the feat less impressive? Yoda had to pull out all the stops. He had to bring esoterics into the mix and still lost. Not really reflective of him holding back. And it only supports my point that HoC's win against Yoda is a testament to the Hero's skill and power.

When Yoda actually did “pull all the stops” against Dooku and Sidious, he didn’t use that ability. Indicating he only did that to prepare HoC against lightning-based attacks (convenient since he would afterwards face off against Sidious).

RNG wrote:He had one move. And bear in mind, you don't have to use the moves you learn in combat in the game. So there really is no proof that he relied on those moves. Also Jinn is sub Maul so it's not like it would have done HoC much good.

The fact that you learned the moves of people who beat/matched the opponents you would directly afterwards fight, is clear intent of you using those techniques. Also this is a clear attempt of using game mechanics to make an argument; its akin to saying Revan might not be superior to Malak, he just used lots of grenades and mines.

RNG wrote:Why would he know their magnum opuses the best? Plus knowing something exists or even seeing it is not the same as being able to counter or use it. Oppo has at best witnessed it. Why should that translate to him being able to counter it. Do you really think you or I could counter Bruce Lee using his famous movies just because we know they exist and/or have seen them? Similarly Rancisis maybe witnessing the moves in question is by no means confirmation that he can counter them. And you haven't provided any proof of Rancisis sparring with the Masters enough to be that well intimated with them.

Because they are the techniques their fighting styles are most centered around? And having seen something and knowing its movements is exactly how you learn how to counter it lol.

RNG wrote:You do know that the signature moves HoC learns isn't all that he knows/uses in combat, right? Also proof that he only knows 5 moves? Sounds like conjecture to me. If you base that off of him being taught the signature moves of those Jedi and nothing else.... well by that logic, Oppo knows zero moves since we don't get any such lore on his lightsaber combat knowledge.

You certainly have used him only knowing force abilities he has been taught in game as proof, so why would we say he knows alot of advanced saber techniques despite in-game only knowing 5? Everything else is just wild hitting with the saber entirely dependent on the player. Lorewise, his skill lies in knowing the abilities of people who counter those he fights.

well by that logic, Oppo knows zero moves since we don't get any such lore on his lightsaber combat knowledge. wrote:

He in part taught Dooku lightsaber combat (shown previously), Kenobi lightsaber combat (shown earlier), was the padawan of Yaddle (who we have seen use multiple Yoda-esque moves), we see him using his lightsaber against the anzati (Vos+ level opponents), and Sora Bulq, who was equal to Mace in sabers before massive growth, was afraid of fighting Rancisis directly.

RNG wrote:1: HoC knows the full fighting styles of Oppo's superiors (Yoda, Anakin, Mace, etc). Meaning that he is superior to Rancisis for not only having their fighting styles, but also beating them. Whereas all Rancisis has is witnessing some of the fighting styles in question.

Bulq knew Mace’s full fighting style (he made it with him), yet you repeatedly claim that Mace >>> Bulq. Having their fighting style =/= being as good as them with it. At least, that is, according to your arguments. Also *beating them in training duels. He never beat them in a real fight. Kind of like how pre-TPM Kenobi isn’t superior to Mace for beating him in a training duel:

RNG wrote:2: HoC only knows the signature moves of Oppo's superiors and not their full combat style. Meaning he can bring just those to bear without any of the potential drawbacks of their full styles. And that HoC is superior to Rancisis for not relying on those full styles in his fights with Oppo's superiors.

When you use the move of a fighting style, then you, while performing it, also have its drawbacks. If you do a swift bruce lee kick once, you’re just as vulnerable to the leg being grabbed/blocked/caught/countered in the same way as if you only did Bruce Lee’s fighting style.

And note, if you truly want me to pick, I pick him only knowing those specific five moves. Which means that his fighting style is entirely predictable, especially for a tactician for Oppo and someone who uses BM to analyze eventualities, consisting only of moves Oppo knows, etc. Glad we can agree on that.

RNG wrote:To become a Jedi Master, is to be the pinnacle of the Order. It's not just his Force Power and skill that made HoC a master. Notice how Anakin was denied the rank despite his vast power and skill. HoC by the standards required to be a Master has a deep connection and understanding of the Force.

Actually, HoC was made a master because he mastered Anakin’s rage and beat him in a training duel. Sourcebook quotes only apply when we’re not directly shown reasonings in the lore.

RNG wrote:Btw, lightsaber throw falls under TK. HoC's had that for a long time. It only became useful for our Hero later on. And Yoda's words can be read that way. HoC learned that it could be useful and started using it.

No? Nowhere does Yoda say anything about HoC only learning it when he needed it. He says that because HoC now has become a wise jedi, he now learned lightsaber throw. Also indicating that he previously was not a wise master, despite what your sourcebook stated.

RNG wrote:Like I said, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Why would this source need to mention shields and passive defenses and such when most SW stories don't? It's simply a mechanic of the universe. Would you argue that Onimi would get force choked by Kyle Katarn or someone else simply because we never see him use TK and the only extent to which he used the force was using his self taught art of the small and basic TK?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, that is correct. But this famous oneliner is also not an excuse to just assume that there isn’t absence, you still have to give us indication for why he would have those abilities when there is NOTHING that suggests it. HoC did not have TK until the middle of his run as a padawan, an ability any initiate has. He did not learn to throw his saber and have it return to his hand until the end of his career as a master. Yet we should assume he is a force messiah who knows a dozen other abilities (You even proceed to argue that he knows Malachia. Malachia being an ability that besides Oppo, only Plo Koon knows in stats (more on that later), and which you specifically argue that noone cares to know about), because you think he could not win duels without them? Plenty star wars duels has been fought out without either side ever resorting to force powers, or even where the greatest ability used was a force push which didn’t really hinder either combatan.

RNG wrote:Again, note what my argument said. I made it clear I was referring to combative TK. Which he simply didn't need.

What do you even mean with “didn’t need”? He didn’t need it to beat Maul? Well Maul in his TPM duel never even used any force abilities, so yes he didn’t need it. But the fact that he didn’t need it doesn’t excuse the fact that as a padawan he should know it for years already, and that the fact that he did not know it, shows a severe lack of knowledge of the force.

RNG wrote:This point more or less debunks itself. Jedi see Malacia and how to apply it, decide it's not worth it, and ignore it for Force push. But they still know it exists. Which is important. Which is all that really matters. Knowing that you'll get hit from an attack that requires an enemy to transfer force energy into you and focus the force on a certain area. You can block that with simple mental defenses because the ability is intended to be used on thugs who have lower fortitude + can't put up mental defenses like Jedi can. And the cherry on top of it all is that Oppo is the master of the ability. Any Jedi should know to watch out for that within combat with Rancisis. Here's an analogy: Malacia can be viewed as a kick in the down south region. Oppo is someone who's infamous and well known within the order to kick someone in said region. When fighting him, that's the region you'll know to look out for. Except guess what, Force users have a better protected down south region and that goes double for the Hero. So not only will that be defended against passively, it's something HoC will look out for.

Oppo is famous for Malachia, an ability that noone besides Plo Koon knows in the current order. We know that one time he explained it to a group of students, who didn’t want to bother learning advanced techniques and so didn’t care to learn its mechanics. Somehow, HoC fully knows the mechanics of Malachia (note that the mechanic of pouring the force into someone is from the encyclopedia, its not even part of his speech). Once more, you want us to believe that HoC knows everything about the force and its applications when in reality he didn’t learn how to make your saber leave your hand until well-into his career as a master.

RNG wrote:4: I just assumed you held Anakin high enough that you wouldn't have him losing to someone who should be laughably below him given how much the Banites grew in the generations.

If you make a compelling case for why Zannah’s hax are too great for Anakin to overcome, then the power-gap between the two is irrelevant. You have come to the exceptionally wrong person if you assume I would not be willing to hear out a Zannah > Anakin case. I would be willing to listen to a Nomi Sunrider > DE Sidious case, even if I tend to favour the latter. I am of the belief that there are very few matchups in which its physically impossible for one character to beat another, regardless of where I hold them.

RNG wrote:The game only cares about what abilities are useful in fights. It's not necessitated that he doesn't know more. Merely that it's not relevant in the fights within the game. And you seem to think "lightsaber throw" is its own force power somehow. It's just TK lol.

TK is a family of abilities. Just because you know force push, does not mean you know force repulse. Just because you know levitation, does not mean you know lightsaber throw. They are different powers, just with similar origin. Also, its interesting that force shield/force speed are not among the abilities “useful in a fight”.

RNG wrote:A quote calling him arguably the best doesn't necessitate that he's GOAT at the time. Hence the arguably lol. It only affirms that he's a top tier.

Correct, therefore it doesn’t bind Oppo.

RNG wrote:Age has not slowed Yoda down whatsoever. According to the quote you yourself sent. And according to H2H:

So age isn't stopping his force knowledge and reserves from growing and there is zero evidence for a plateau in his growth. On the contrary, he should benefit from the Order wide growth.

You claim this proves he’s not stopped growing. But thats not what the quotes say. They say he’s “just as vital” and “is slowed down not by age”. Both say that age doesn’t mean he’s inferior to previous incarnations. But it does it by saying he’s as good as ever, not better.

RNG wrote:It's only natural for Force users to grow. Outside some cases, the only direction most characters go is up. Sometimes they go down but stagnation is something that you'd have to prove. As such, growth is the default assumption and one that I've supported above.

Growth is only the assumption if we have reason to assume growth. We have none. Stagnation I would have to prove, correct, but him just retaining the status quo I do not, because THAT is the default assumption.

RNG wrote:There's other points to look at but honestly, it's clear that Yoda is Windu's clear superior. By a wide margin. Just a default assumption at this point. Even assuming it's just ">" which you suggested with zero reason or evidence, it's still Yoda>Mace>Oppo. Rancisis looks far less favorable in comparison to Yoda.

The thing here is; I don’t really need evidence suggesting this. You present supremacy quotes that, according to you, prove that Yoda is superior to Mace, and Mace is superior to Oppo. However this doesn’t suggest that a large gap exists, or even a notable one. If I can lift 1 gram more than you can, someone could make a supremacy quotes that says: “Cheth is stronger than RNG”. However would you say that the gap is at all relevant? When are we ever going to be in a situation where me lifting 1 gram more than you is going to actually help me? Yes the quotes may seemingly claim that Yoda > Mace > Rancisis, but these “>” could be so small that in a fight there is no noticeable difference whatsoever.

RNG wrote:This was not immediately after the Yoda fight. As that would be impossible. Mace assigns you to go after Dooku on Geonosis. And Yoda is in the room too. Both of those things would be impossible if this was right after Dooku's fight in AOTC. It's shortly after AOTC. Which is just fine for my scaling.

Yes they assign you to do it… before you go to Geonosis with the rest of the jedi? There’s no contradiction here. They send you to Geonosis to stop Dooku, which is exactly what they did in AotC. He’s outright said to be fighting in the battle of Geonosis:

RNG wrote:Dooku is operating at 100%. Furthermore, it's only Obi Wan who's defeated here in the game. And Obi as of then wasn't a hard fight for Dooku whatsoever so there really is no evidence that Dooku was tired against the Hero:

And just because only Kenobi speaks doesn’t mean he’s the only one there lol. What is it you said? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence?

RNG wrote:Also notice how Oppo is in the council meeting at this point in time. Windu says "very few can match" Dooku's skill. So even with Oppo fully available, the council sends HoC. Clear supremacy the Hero holds even as early as circa AOTC.

I have no idea what you mean here. You quote Mace saying “Very few” can match Dooku, say that Oppo is in the council chambers, and say that this proves HoC is superior to Oppo. This makes it sound like you believe they hold HoC > Dooku > everyone in the council, which is completely insensible for a multitude of reasons. You directly before said that Yoda himself is in the room, and the fact that Mace says “Very few” means more than one can match him. If every the council sends to do a mission, here’s a list of jedi that scale above Yoda: Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, Jinn, TPM/AOTC Kenobi, pre-AOTC Anakin, etc. When the Infant of Shaa threatened to destroy one of three planets of the Republic, Rancisis, Eeth Koth and Yarael Poof were chosen to defend them despite Yoda and Mace being in the council room at the time. Proof that Oppo/Yarael/Koth > Yoda?

RNG wrote:But let me provide even more evidence that the Dooku that HoC fought wasn't weakened:

More fearsome than ever:

“More fearsome than ever” -> None of them are any different than in the movies/comics/novels. There is not really any counter from this than to say: this is an add made by Hasbro hyping up their game. In the game itself we have no reason to assume these villains are stronger than they were in the movies, since we explicitly know its the same (HoC faced Jango during the battle of Geonosis, are we to assume that he was pre-prime while fighting HoC, and post-prime when fighting Mace? Are we to assume that Grievous was pre-prime during the battle of coruscant, and post-prime when kenobi met him on Utapau, even though he only used two hands against HoC? Are we to assume that Sidious, who was consistently getting more powerful by the jedi dying throughout Order 66 (not all died at the same time) was weaker when he faced Yoda later?). Or is it more likely that they are infact the same villains, and that the fact that Dooku was tired even before facing Yoda and definitively was after would apply heavily against HoC?

RNG wrote:Lightsabers are far more damaging than swords. Especially when wielded by one of the best swordsmen in the era like HoC. Attacking HoC with his tail is a very big risk for Oppo. Remember, Obi Wan got decommissioned for the entire fight with just a couple grazing strikes. Plus sabers cut through stuff like butter. Way better than whatever vibroswords the Anzati were using. And obviously touching the blade isn't gonna end well. If Oppo foolishly decides to use a tail attack, it's at the massive risk of taking a debilitating blow. Or just losing his tail.

A rocket launcher is more damaging than a pistol, but if you shoot someone in the head with a pistol and with a rocket launcher, both can instantly kill you. If you slash someone in the tail with a vibrosword and cut it off with it, it doesn’t matter that a lightsaber is somewhat better at cutting.

RNG wrote:Grievous was an opponent that could attack faster than even thought. An assault from him is rather deadly. 5 strikes in a second is insane. And considering speedblitzing takes one strike in less than a second, it lines up just fine.

But… I feel the need to say that he isn’t attacking faster than thought here. He’s striking 5 times per second. In their AOTC duel, Anakin struck Dooku three times in 1 second (1:38-1:39), and thats massively pre-prime and while spinning while attacking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlRJLcy8NsA&t=98s

And at 2:08 to 2:09, they actually do four strikes in 1 second. And that's Anakin/Dooku using one lightsaber as compared to Grievous’ two:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlRJLcy8NsA&t=128s

And since you like mentioning Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee, know that Bruce Lee himself used Wing Chun Punches, which are far faster than 5 strikes per second (no actual clip of him using it exists sadly):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2xr1Gyt5vE

Each of Grievous’ arms are explicitly noted to be able to strike 3 times per second (so twelve in total with all four, and since he used two against HoC 6 per second), so against HoC he was underperforming. And against Kenobi he even ramped it up to 20 strikes per second, so outright five strikes per second for a single lightsaber:

Revenge of the Sith wrote::

In other words, HoC’s best speed feat is something perfectly within the realms of a normal human’s capabilities, and not something to assume he can blitz someone. And on that note, Grievous is less powerful than any jedi council master in the force, yet he’s the fastest enemy you face, once again proving that power =/= speedblitz. And all of this is perfectly reasonable with what we see in SW: speedblitzes rarely happen, and certainly never against the likes of a council master. Its also funny that you use Grievous as an example of why HoC is >> Oppo in speed, when Dooku implies any council master would be a challenge for Grievous:

Labyrinth of Evil wrote: :

RNG wrote:I never said you can't use punches in duels. But extra hands don't offer some scale tipping advantage. It's extremely moot.

Would you say a man with one hand isn’t disadvantaged against a man with two? If you have two weapons, and know how to use both at once, that means you can occupy the single weapon of your enemy, while also using your second weapon while your opponent is defenseless. If you have three, and your opponent only has two, that means while your two occupy your enemy, your third may use the advantage. Now HoC has two hands, and only one weapon, as we see nothing indicating his hand-to-hand skill. Rancisis is a noted martial artist with four hands and a tail. How will HoC cut off his hands or his tail, if he must also face Oppo’s own lightsaber? You seem to assume that I argue that Oppo will do an attack solely with his tail; he would not. However while they duel, while their sabers clash, lock or even when he’s preparing for another strike, Oppo’s tail can flash out, or one of his other hands might punch or restrain him.

A 2:1 advantage will always be an advantage, even if you argue that one of the two is weaker than his partner or his opponent. A tail or an extra hand is no match for a lightsaber, you are correct. But if Oppo has a lightsaber, and HoC has a lightsaber, they already cancel one another out. And then you ADD the fact that HoC has to deal with, albeit lesser, additional weapons.

RNG wrote:I don't really see any indication that Oppo has Nomi's level of aptitude for the ability. Hers is practically similar to the Halcyons and their illusions and tutaminis. Save for the disadvantage part.

Thanks for providing us with a quote of Halycons’ own talent, a comparison showing why they’re similar, and why this puts her outside the range of a reputed master of Battle Meditation. Oh wait you didn’t? That means this vague comparison with nothing to back it up is meaningless. Now of course, you argue that we have no direct evidence that Oppo’s aptitude for Battle Meditation is greater than Nomi’s. And truly, there is no quote saying as such. However, multiple times you have argued for intent and holistics, what we are supposed to think when we read or see Star Wars content. So what I would like to question is, what is the likelihood of a woman who has not even begun her jedi training, lesser knowledge of the force than a mere initiate, somehow is greater than a jedi council master at one of the two abilities he is most famed for?

Even greater becomes the doubt, when Oppo is placed along the likes of prime Nomi, Master Thon, and Arca Jeth. Not to mention the fact that Odan-Urr, one of the greatest masters of battle meditation and one of those who taught Nomi later, was not mentioned in favor of him?

RNG wrote:There is no proof that Rancisis' aptitude for the ability is greater. Lets get into it. Unlike what we see in the descriptions of when Nomi used the ability or even Joruus, Rancisis was using it exclusively for tactics. According to both himself (as per your scans of him trying to see the war) and multiple characters in the arc:

It is bold of you to say that, when we have direct proof of Oppo doing it. Rancisis is noted to be fully capable of altering the will of forces. And the exact wording presented to us is also something I want to make note of:



He “subtly” alters the will of opposing forces, in direct comparison following the text speaking of Nomi, Thon and Jeth. I have already presented the fact that battle meditation can be used on other forceusers (see Nomi using it to incapacitate Aleema), but the fact that Oppo’s battle meditation is more subtle than Nomi’s, also implies that he would be even more capable of entering a forceuser’s mind without notice (just to avoid force shield shenanigans, although interestingly, against BM, RNG does not even attempt to argue for them blocking it, which I take as him knowing they wouldn’t).

Some might say: “But why didn’t he use BM for anything except tactics in the battle of Saleucami? RNG pointed out he didn’t even use it to coordinate his forces!” And its true that RNG did say that… clearly showing he has no idea what he’s talking about. Quinlan EXPLICITLY stated that Rancisis uses BM to coordinate his forces, which anyone who has read the comics would know:

RNG wrote:As a further testament to everything, they just need the info/plan in Rancisis' corpse. The plan to take down the shield generator. That's the plan that he took 5 months to come up with. That's his greatest value.

Once more omitting the actual plot of the story. The only thing holding back Rancisis’ plan is the fact that its impossible to get anyone inside the compound to disable the shields:



Meanwhile Vos has the advantage of being a seperatist agent with free access into the compound. If Vos had told him Oppo also could have pulled off that plan instantly. Furthermore Vos’s plan still required: 1. Tholme, who even Vos thought was dead to show up and help him. 2. Vos to be amped to defeat Bulq. 3. Xiaan Amersu to suicide into the shield. In other words: Vos had a significant situational advantage over Oppo, and his plan still would have failed if three entirely unexpected events had occurred to help him out. Also please do note that Oppo’s plans also entailed fighting off and sieging an infinite horde of jedi-killers (morgukai) trained by other jedi killers (anzati) in an exceptionally fortified base with MULTIPLE layers of shields (the comic starts with the jedi blowing up a perimeter shield structure):



And he did it with an army of clone troopers and seven jedi, only one of which died under his watch.

(Also another thing you omitted is the fact that they’re not following Oppo’s plan at all, Vos only pretended he could read the plan from Oppo’s corpse to keep the other jedi from being demoralized):

RNG wrote:The crew he was using it on were likely Spaarti grown clones. Clones that were grown in like 20 days and taught with flash learning. Very uncomplicated and simple minds. You'll notice he didn't control Pellaeon, the Chimaera's captain. Why wouldn't he? The argument going on in that scene was between Thrawn and Joruus. Pellaeon was more or less a non factor. The clones C'Baoth took hold of were mere months old max. Controlling alike minds is easier generally. (Also the passage you sent is from The Last Command. Not Dark Force Rising.)

Another excellent attempt to misrepresent what actually happened. The reason Pellaeon (and Thrawn for that matter) were not also taken control of was because they were right beside an Ysalamir, which negates Joruus’ power:

Thrawn Trilogy wrote: :

Furthermore, the Chimera was already a fully crewed ship before Thrawn even found Wayland, with us explicitly having named imperials that we know are part of the crew (the spaarti clones wouldn’t have been named, just given an ID code). And even if we did not for a FACT know this, the assumption that Thrawn would fill his CAPITAL SHIP with low-effort clones is baseless and nonsensical:

Thrawn Trilogy wrote::

RNG wrote:Though it's not like Oppo could even do what Joruus did. The Jedi during the battle weren't being mind controlled or amped or anything of the sort through Oppo. K'Kruhk's support in Oppo's plan boils down to "I'm sure he knows what he's doing"

[...]

Hell, Oppo isn't even controlling the clones here. The Jedi have to order them. So he isn't even using the infamous coordination aspect:

1. This is a 5 month siege, Thrawn was doubting Joruus could keep full control over the crew for a single hyperspace jump. If Oppo had been capable of holding complete mental control over a full army, while also making a plan to take an undefeatable base spawning an infinite army of jedi-killers, he would unquestionably have been a top 10 or even top 5 forceuser. 2. Why on earth would he control them? Joruus wanted to control the crew since they were loyal to Thrawn and Thrawn kept dismissing him. The jedi and clones are all loyal to Oppo, so taking complete mental control would have all the disadvantages (extremely exhausting, lack of independent micro-control), and none of the advantages (absolute obedience and control), since he already had the latter.

RNG wrote:His knowledge is also said to be "extensive". Furthermore, a Luke who's had 5 years of training post ROTJ also believes his knowledge could help form a New Jedi Order. And the only thing that was stopping that was C'Baoth's clone madness. So you will need to prove that C'Baoth is "completely untrained". Hell, there's nothing to suggest he's below his template in knowledge either. Clones sometimes have memories imprinted onto them. And we know Palpatine wanted a perfect replica of the master. Why wouldn't knowledge be involved in that?

Here is the issue. Even if Joruus had all of Jorus’ memories (which you would have to prove), its not the same to remember something, and to have intimate understanding of a mystical force such as the Force. Furthermore, if Joruus had Jorus' full persona, he wouldn't turn into an insane dark jedi. Jorus was kind of an unlikeable person but he was still a respected jedi master.

More importantly, you did not at all acknowledge the fact that even if Joruus = Jorus, he is still a mere jedi master, whereas Rancisis himself is a jedi council master (and as you appear to have agreed, the third-most respected of them). In a sourcebook that explicitly has an entire section about Jorus, its still said quite clearly that the most respected jedi are the jedi council masters:




And note that even if we ignore holistics and simple logic, sources dictate that strength in the force is a major factor of the respect they gain:

RNG wrote:He tried to see the future, the bigger picture of the war..... and failed... Why is this beyond any other Battle Med user? None of them tried it. So why should we just assume they're worse? Why is him trying and failing meaningful at all?

There is an easy reason for this: if they could, why didn’t they? Oppo Rancisis was using BM on the entirety on the galaxy, the farthest reach any other jedi has used BM are on planet-levels. And it is not like they have no reason to: Odan-Urr feared the coming of sith in the golden age. He, Thon and Arca didn’t at all try to use BM on the Naddist uprising or the Krath uprising. Neither did Urr, Thon or Nomi on Kun’s sith order. Palpatine and Joruus both had conflicts massively important to them, yet did not use BM to find a winning path. And unlike Rancisis, NONE of these had the same circumstance of the dark side veil of Sidious preventing them from doing it, which is the ONLY reason Rancisis failed.

And then there’s also the matter of: when do feats apply? Rancisis used BM on the entire galaxy, on the spot trying to figure out the full Clone Wars. And the reason he failed was exclusively Sidious, who prevented the jedi order as a whole of seeing the true aspect of the clone wars. The scope of this is vastly beyond anything we’ve seen BM used on otherwise, almost exclusively singular battles. To say “none of them tried it”, would be like saying: “Why does force storm make Sidious more impressive than Darth Bandon? He never tried to make one.”, “Why does Vitiate/Nihilus draining planets make them superior to Greedo? He never tried to drain one.”, and “Why does Chewbacca ripping off C-3PO’s arm of make him stronger than C-3PO? He never tried to rip his own arm off.”

There simply must come a point when the sheer scope of a feat is so monumentally above that of others, that one can’t simply dismiss it by saying “Well they never tried to”, especially since if they could have they doubtlessly would have tried to. The fact that every other instance of BM before has exclusively been for singular battles, whereas Rancisis was doing it on an entire galactic war (which itself, is bigger than any other war that BM has been used in), should doubtlessly put him above them.

RNG wrote:And remember, it took him like 5 months to build up the plans that amounted to blowing up a shield generator from the inside. Immense amount of prep for something so trivial. Months of setting that up too.

You… do know how sieges work right? Oppo was given a singular army of soldiers and seven jedi, with only a few starships as airsupport (controlled by the jedi), to siege out a heavily fortified base with multiple shields, hidden attack routes, massive turrets, a continous droid army AND an infinite army of jedi killers being produced while they fight. Not to mention two dark acolytes (one a former jedi master who’s superior to all the jedi under Oppo’s command), and every single anzati master bar one. Not to mention that Rancisis was also allocating resources, time and soldiers into providing for the civilian population of the planet. All the while also trying to BM the entirety of the war. And he can’t even share his plans in advance with anyone since Quinlan, his second-in-command, is a spy. Sieges in general take time. They take even longer if you have to do absolutely everything yourself.

RNG wrote:That still means Yoda is better. Everything favors him in a fight so we'd say he's the victor.

Did I question the fact that Yoda is better? What I questioned was if there was or wasn’t any scenario in which he would lose. By the fact that you did not try to argue against it, I will assume that you agree to the fact that there are instances in which Jinn would beat Yoda, which is the point of the argument.

Completely irrelevant to our debate. Plus the scan itself says Desann was a legit threat even if Luke wasn't surprised. wrote:

It is in fact not irrelevant. Because throughout this entire debate, you argue a claim no writer, editor, artist, or anyone involved in SW would agree with: that HoC is invincible. Sure you do not state the word itself, but make no mistake, you do make the claim. Oppo has abilities HoC has never experienced before and has no knowledge of? He will instantly sense them and instantly know how to counter them. Oppo brings superior tactical knowledge? Won’t help since HoC is “more powerful/skilled”. HoC has to deal with Oppo having a match for his only offensive weapon, as well as him having twice as many arms and a tail that can ragdoll and crush people? He’s more skilled and has a lightsaber so makes no difference. Oppo has the help of an extra shooter? HoC can deal with all the previously mentioned factors at once, and still effortlessly take out Greedo.

What RNG tries to sell is an image of perfection. Of a character who would never ever make a mistake. Who would never be caught off-guard, who could never be tricked or slip up, and one who no matter the factors playing against him, somehow will always be able to ignore them since he’s supposedly more powerful or more skilled. That is not how jedi work. That is not how sith work. Dooku can be massively above AOTC Anakin, and still temporarily be put on the back-foot when he charges in with two lightsabers while trying to save Kenobi. Luke Skywalker can be surprised by Desann. Yoda can be hit by Sidious’s lightning, despite being perfectly able to block it. A jedi could be capable of blocking and dodging hundreds or thousands of shooters at once, yet be killed by a single bounty hunter shooting them just right. Grandmaster Luke, Valkorian, Sidious, all of these often seem immortal, but they are not, ultimately there will always be some lucky scoundrel, just at the right time on just the right day, aiming just at the right spot with just the right blaster, who will be able to put a blaster hole through their head. There is no perfect forceuser, for forceusers are not gods or superheroes, they’re regular humans with the ability to draw on powers beyond themselves.

Also the scan makes it clear that the only reason Desann is a threat without surprise, is for exactly the reason I am arguing: “Damage and death can come in many ways and Luke was susceptible to them, even as good a jedi as he is.” Luke is not perfect, an inferior fighter can beat him if he slips up for just a moment, or just has a bad day, or if he slightly misjudges Desann’s next movement, or anything like that. Desann can beat Luke for the same reason that even if someone reads this debate and thinks “Hey, RNG made a better case for HoC being more powerful and skilled”, Rancisis can still beat HoC.

RNG wrote:What you wrote above could be used to say Oppo beats Yoda or Crucible Luke or The Ones or the Bedlams or any list of far superior foes (HoC included).

And that where, you infact, are right. Rancisis can beat Yoda. Sharad Hett can beat Yoda. Aayla can beat Yoda. That is the truth many debaters refuse to accept. Now what are the odds of Aayla beating Yoda? Infinitely small lol, that I think any reader can agree on. But ultimately, it CAN happen. How do you think we end up with stories like Sidious nearly dying to a poisonous gas, or how Yoda, who we all know is at the very least an equal of Dooku, actually lost to him on one occasion?

Now is my argument that Rancisis > Yoda because BM is an ability that allows him to instantly manipulate events to give him the exact scenario he needs to win against anyone, no matter how strong? No it is not. But the thing is, HoC is not Yoda. Even if a person decides to think that HoC legitimately beat Yoda, and legitimately is above him, he still can’t do everything Yoda can. Unlike HoC, Yoda has even more experience than Rancisis. Unlike HoC, Yoda also is a master of BM. Unlike HoC, Yoda has spent centuries learning the many aspects of the force and the abilities the jedi possess. So no, BM is not some no-limits fallacy. However in the matchup of HoC vs Rancisis, in which, even if someone was to think “HoC > Rancisis in dueling/power”, there are still so many factors at play here (experience, tactics, 2v1, multiple limbs, deeper knowledge of the force, esoteric powers, knowing combat styles, etc.), that there are countless ways in which HoC could end up losing. And thats even before getting into the passive circumstances of any duel (slip up, going for the wrong move, accidentally leaving oneself exposed to a certain attack, just outright tripping, etc). This is no no-limits fallacy, this is simply the fact that Oppo holds many advantages over HoC even if you give him power/dueling, which I do not believe is a reasonable stance in the first place.

RNG wrote:Furthermore, it took months for Oppo to have that exact "visualization" of victory in his head/corpse.

As for time, it did not take five months for Oppo to come up with his plans. He had his plans, it simply takes time for a siege to progress to the point where you can execute your plans. He has had his plans the entire time, it's just that noone else knows it. And this was in a scenario with absolutely terrible conditions for him. If you want an actual way to measure the time it takes for him to use BM, you need to look no further than to see Nomi, Arca, and Thon using BM instantly (already provided scans for Nomi using it in battle), Oppo outright stating it can be used in lightsaber battles (already provided scans), or even the fact that Micah would have prefered Rancisis (someone who’s never been mentioned to even be able to fly a ship) over Plo Koon (a renowned pilot) to fly their ship since he thinks Rancisis already would have figured out how to beat three fighters that had ambushed them seconds before with a much slower non-combative ship:



Now imagine Rancisis facing a jedi like HoC. Rancisis, a member of the jedi high council, knows all of HoC’s accomplishments well, will have discussed him with the rest of the jedi high council, and knows every person he’s learned his moves from well, even helped train some of them. He knows how HoC will fight and act. It's easy to anticipate something or someone if you are familiar with the subject, even for regular people. Now imagine a master renowned for his strategic and tactical ability, boosting his ability to see and determine winning scenarios with BM, and tell me once more how it will take him 5 months to figure out how to beat the HoC.

RNG wrote:You're kidding, right? The scan you sent literally says: "Gorm's disadvantage was his belief in his own invincibility. He thought he was a fortress. He thought he was unbeatable."

That is all his opinion lol. According to the passage itself.

Yet Jinn then proceeds to say that his armour is “formidable”, and Gorm then survives taking three lightsaber blows directly to the head. He thinks he’s invincible, and while its true he is not (not even jedi are), and that he therefore underestimated Jinn, he does have that opinion for a reason: he’s exceptionally tanky.

RNG wrote:Qui Gon and Adi weren't exactly trying to kill him. They just wanted to incapacitate him. Were they in kill mode, it'd be much different. They only went after the helmet to take away his fighting capability:

1. They went for his head because that's where “his intelligence was”. That applies to any person. That does not change the fact that they slammed their lightsabers into his head three times, which would kill anyone else, and that the first strike he outright tanked.
2. They did not hold back. They hit him thrice with lightsabers to THE HEAD, and quite literally melted it. The only reason it didn’t kill him is since he’s a superhuman who can survive just about anything. Jinn even outright checked if he still was alive or not afterwards.

A strike to the head is an intended killing blow, and that's why they struck him there. Simply hitting a man with super-strength who doesn’t really feel pain in the chest would be useless. Only going for the most important part of him would do the job, and its also the part that if gone is most likely to get him killed.

RNG wrote:While Gorm had his back to Greedo and didn't even know he was in the room.

And…? How would that affect his durability? The argument here is not Greedo > Gorm, as I made clear in my main post. The argument is that Greedo shot a shot so good it completely destroyed the head of someone who’s head in the past outright tanked a lightsaber hit from Qui-Gon Jinn. It being a cheapshots is irrelevant when its the effects of the shot that are the point of argument, not whether it puts him above Gorm or not.

RNG wrote:What are we left with? A Greedo superior to the one you have access to is able to cheapshot Gorm with a weapon that is noted for its incredible sights in an uncharacteristic moment of competence. TCW Greedo will not have access to Goa's blaster nor its accuracy advantage. He furthermore will be inferior to the Greedo that shot Gorm anyway. This whole argument has no meaning.

Both of which can be replicated by Rancisis improving his ability by BM. By coordinating where Greedo should shoot and how he should move, Rancisis can drastically improve his proficiency and replicate the FLASH OF COMPETENCE. And before its questioned, I have already made several arguments showing that Rancisis can talk/fight while still using BM on others. The only difference between TCW Greedo and OT Greedo is also that he was trained by a C-tier (at best) bounty hunter for a couple days, none of which included any combat training (Note that it was even I who provided this information. RNG has just said “Its been years!!!” and refused to make an argument for why that means he should be noticeably superior).

RNG wrote:Already went into the whole battle med nonsense above. The more likely case is that HoC kills Greedo and then goes onto fight Rancisis. As both common sense and HoC's tendency to fight non force users first imply that he'd take out the smaller fish first before taking on the other small fish. Plus, HoC can just use FORCE PUSH to knock Greedo out without difficulty and then focus on Rancisis.

Oh so now it's okay for forceusers to spam abilities freely? Earlier you said:

RNG wrote:Especially because as we see in Oppo's final fight, he only really uses em to force push in multiple directions. And those pushes sure are hell won't be useful here considering Rancisis will need to gather energy to use em. And HoC will sense him gathering energy. Hell, even if he doesn't, as soon as Oppo even begins extending an arm, HoC will notice answer the move.

Two things can be noted from this: 1. Rancisis would “sense” it, and could simply block it, and have Greedo shoot HoC while he’s distracted. 2. While HoC “gathers energy” to use force push on Greedo, Greedo can still shoot to further strain his focus, and then Rancisis can also freely attack HoC with all his own abilities, weapons, hands and tails since he “sensed” HoC about to use force push in advance, or just would see HoC "extending an arm", and will "answer the move".

This is one of basically countless instances in which you set rules for Rancisis, be it trying to limit him with supremacy quotes, limit his force abilities, limit his dueling abilities, etc., and then having them not at all apply to HoC himself.

RNG wrote:He did outduel Palpatine so I'll stop you right there. Because guess what? That makes HoC a Titan. That's literally all The Hero needs to have Titan status. Why do you think Office Mace is held as a Titan? It's because he beat Palpatine. I could stop here since you've admitted that HoC outdueled Palpatine, (which is a Windu and Yoda + tier feat already) but lets keep going.

Cool rant, but inherently flawed. A ROTS Titan is a term many debaters like to use, but with no clear definition. Who people think is a ROTS Titan varies on the person. Some people think its just Yoda, Sidious and KFV. Others think its Yoda, Sidious, KFV and Mace. Some think its Yoda, Sidious, KFV, Mace and Kenobi. Some think its Yoda, Sidious, KFV and Kenobi. Others even include entirely different characters like Grievous or Fay. I have even seen someone say that even KFV isn’t one, and exclusively Yoda and Sidious are. Bottom line is: being a titan is an empty term, all it means is that the person saying it believes that they are one of the top-tiers of ROTS. Being a titan doesn’t suddenly give a character a certain status, power or skill they did not have before.

RNG wrote:Absolutely none of that precludes Palpatine from being a top tier duelist. You can be an absurdly good duelist and an absurdly good manipulator. These things aren't mutually exclusive.

[...]

Nothing in your quote suggests they win by manipulation specifically. It simply says they win combat by breaking their enemy's spirit. Palpatine lost the duel. So he didn't succeed in breaking The Hero's spirit. So he lost. Simple as.

There is no question that Sidious is a good duelist. There is no question that his force lightning is powerful. However the argument is that the true showing of Sidious’s power (at least until DE), is his manipulation, his lies and deceit. He did not defeat the jedi by his skill with the blade or with destructive abilities. He defeated them by manipulation and lies. You keep citing Mace’s duel with Sidious as a reason for why he’s a ROTS Titan, but do you know that many see the duel as Sidious winning? Most who watch the movie don’t end up with “Wow Mace is superior to Sidious”, they end up with “Sidious manipulated events exactly so that he would win.” The office duel was no win for Mace, because Sidious from the start had planned for Mace dying by Anakin’s betrayal, and for Anakin to turn, and it went exactly in that manner.

And you are wrong to say that Sidious did not break HoC’s spirit. They fought their duel, but with manipulation Sidious could just walk away, HoC went far away from Coruscant, meaning Yoda had one less ally there, and after HoC dueled Vader; he went into hiding like everyone else. HoC’s spirit was as broken as that of Yoda or Kenobi, and ultimately, the jedi had no impact on the galaxy.

RNG wrote:It's one thing if you're claiming that Palpatine held back just so he can send the Hero after Vader as a test or something. But that was not Palpatine's intent. He sent the 501st (The Republic's best forces) to kill the Hero and when they failed, he took up the blade himself. There's zero indication that held back his tier 9 dueling skills in this fight:

He sent a handful of 501st troopers after someone who’s beaten mandalorian supercommandos and Jango Fett. Truly that must be the mark of a man who could control the entire legion trying his hardest to see him dead. Also thank you for acknowledging that Sidious holding back to send HoC after Vader is a fully plausible option.


Looking at the clip, you’re right, he doesn’t oneshot, he only takes half your health, so moreso a twoshot. However there is one think you neglect to mention: this is when the HoC is actively blocking the strike (you can see that the lightsaber is aligned to block it, and that the lightsaber is flashing, which it only does when blocking). Which means that this all out KFV can outright twoshot even if HoC is blocking.

RNG wrote:Neither of the MFVs the Hero fought are below the one Kenobi fought. For one, you haven't supported your claim about this being pre sep council murder MFV. The fight fits rather well post sep murder in fact. Also, you haven't proven that he has any sort of growth after choking out Padme.

When Vader choked out Padme, that was the final step to the darkside. He betrayed the jedi, but only because he saw them as liars and evil. He killed the seperatist council, but that was simply revenge. However Padme is the one person he loved above everything, the one person he turned to the darkside for in the first place. It is only natural that he would be at his strongest in the darkside as he did so, the lowest he has ever fallen. And it is further natural that he would continuously grow in power as he has since the moment he turned in general. However if you wish evidence for it, Vader is stated to “surrenders fully to the darkside” during his duel with Kenobi:



He’s noted to be “sinking more deeply into his Sith Lord persona” as he kills the seperatist council and then Padme, suggesting that with each act he turns further into the darkside:



Finally he’s noted to “harness more power” during his duel with Kenobi:



In general, it seems unreasonable not to assume that he would not have grown upon the darkest act he has ever committed.

RNG wrote:At any rate, it doesn't matter since the "more fearsome than ever" quote I posted earlier debunks the notion that this MFV was inferior. So the base MFV in the fight can be held at the tier he was in the movie or better.

Addressed where you used it for Dooku.

RNG wrote:I will dub this iteration of Anakin/Vader as DARK HEGEMONY VADER

This entire theory is based on a fun game mechanic with fancy lighting. Do you know who else has achieved THE DARK HEGEMONY? BoAct 1 Nox (so basically just prologue Nox):



So I guess that much like MFV, Act 1 Nox can casually rewrite the laws of the universe by using force cloak. Not an isolated incident either, because Nox throughout her entire storyline can “rewrite the laws of the universe”:





And its not limited to Nox! Syo Bakarn also can rewrite the laws of the universe!



And even prologue Barsen’thor!



And many, many more. Since in truth, this is not rewriting the rules of the universe, its a fancy look for a video game for kids. Kind of like how when Grievous got angry, the entire world turned red. A nonforceuser who also can rewrite the laws of the universe! Starting to think the laws of the universe are kind of fodder. He even does it better than MFV, since he goes from zero health to half health by will alone. He regenerates by sheer force of will!



I love the naming of your argument, its so potent I would actually want to back it up if it was at all based on reality, but ultimately it's just a game mechanic that he shares with General Grievous.

RNG wrote:(Before you attempt to pull out the "gameplay mechanics" card, I'll remind everyone that a substantial percent of Cheth's arguments here rely on skewed readings of gameplay/game aspects.)

The only game aspects I have talked about here are:
- That his abilities/skills are those he has in the game, which is an argument you introduced in the second paragraph of your opener.
- Counting the amount of strikes Grievous does per second.

That's two arguments, one originating from you, and its one you only strongly oppose now that I try to apply it across the board. Meanwhile you’re trying to argue that this is some super-saiyan version of Anakin since its a different color scheme.

Breaking of Chains

A central part of RNG’s argument throughout this debate, and in fact, I would argue his only argument in favour of HoC, has been the fact that the HoC scales above people Oppo scales below. However the central, and quite obvious, problem with this argument is that the “evidence” for Oppo scaling below those people are supremacy quotes that also apply to HoC. For example, Yoda being stated the most powerful of all jedi puts both Oppo and HoC below Yoda, yet RNG argues that only Oppo is subject to it since HoC “beat” Yoda and therefore can’t be below him.

Yet the problem once more is obvious. RNG argues that the quote that states that Yoda is supreme of ALL jedi does not extend to HoC, despite HoC being a jedi. Therefore, if HoC indeed is superior to Yoda, by the explicit wording of the quote, it MUST be false. A remarkable comparison RNG made for the working of supremacy quotes, was to handcuffs:

RNG wrote:But did Rancisis defeat Yoda or Palpatine or MFV? No? Then that means he is bound whereas HoC can break out of the bind with his feats. Binds are like handcuffs, just because one person can break out of them, doesn't mean everyone can suddenly lol.

This is remarkable of course, only because of how remarkably incomparable to Yoda’s supremacy quotes handcuffs are. A single pair of handcuffs can only bind the hands of a single person. Yoda’s supremacy quotes bind thousands. A set of handcuffs can only be compared to a supremacy quote that puts a single character over a single other. For instance, if Yoda had a supremacy quote stating he’s superior specifically to Oppo Rancisis; “Yoda was more powerful than Rancisis”, than we could liken it to handcuffs.However in this instance Yoda has supremacy quotes EXPLICITLY putting him above ALL jedi. This is not a handcuff binding a single person. This is multiple jedi being thrown into a jail-cell together, held behind bars by a single bond that binds them ALL.

And the issue is, if HoC breaks open the cell, it's open for everyone. Yoda can’t be superior to all jedi, if there’s just a single one he’s not superior to. The quote is therefore, by its own meaning, objectively false. Meaning it binds no one.

Not to mention that if put in handcuffs or a cell, simply breaking them is not the only option. Sure you can break them and be as powerful or more powerful than whoever put it on. But you can also just beat them with your handcuffs on, or simply steal or ask for the key, or get your hands out of them without as much as scratching the metal. Even if Yoda had a quote explicitly putting Oppo below him, and another explicitly putting HoC below him, and HoC could break his quote and Oppo couldn’t his; it doesn’t mean that Oppo can’t just find a way to circumvent the gap. Otherwise Jango, Boba, Durge, Grievous, etc., all of which are inferior in power to a jedi initiate, would never be able to win a fight against a fully-trained jedi master.

Which brings us to the argument that HoC could have beaten people superior to himself by other means than superiority or equality in power. Which just brings the even more obvious question: What prevents Oppo from doing the same?

The entire case for HoC is to put Oppo (and prime Sora) under restrictions RNG argues are ironclad, and then turning around and saying “but actually they are not so ironclad since HoC is not restricted by them after all”. You can’t have both RNG, and the fact that you arbitrarily pick and choose when binds apply and when not is on its own enough to dismiss your entire case. And without scalings, RNG has made NO argument for why HoC is superior to Oppo.

And just to be clear, RNG repeatedly using chair scaling as an argument that Oppo HAS TO be inferior to Mace and Yoda, only backfires since HoC has no chair at all. If he agrees chair scaling is accurate then HoC scales below anyone in the jedi council. Its a natural extension of the argument: if the seat on the council is given to a character based on power, then those with no chair at all must be inferior to those with one. The only exceptions would be those who were offered chairs but rejected it (Jinn for example) and Anakin.

And finally, I want to note that RNG outright conceded that with supremacy quotes, HoC being ~ Rancisis, and that both are “<~Yoda and Mace”, is the correct assumption:

RNG wrote:Either we go with the quotes and HoC is sub Yoda and Mace but able to beat Yoda, meaning he's <~Yoda and Mace. Which leaves us with Rancisis~HoC as per chair scaling.

And no, I'm not at all putting it out of context. Put that sentence in the searchbar and the only added context will be that without supremacy quotes, HoC is superior. However if he considers supremacy quotes valid, and I do, would not then Rancisis~HoC<~Yoda and Mace be the default assumption, therefore removing any possibility of HoC being noticeably superior in the force?

Stats
(Note, since stats arguments were introduced by RNG in his conclusion, I allowed myself to do a longer reply on it in my own conclusion)

RNG wrote:Lets look into the mechanics of the ability. As per the most recent source depicting it, we're shown something crucial: Those with a high fortitudes can resist it. (Blue)

[...]

Jedi also have higher fortitudes than the average thugs Malacia is designed to be used against.

Ah, I must truly concede. A jedi has a +1 fortitude defense, how would any jedi possibly bypass that. The only question left to ask is; why didn’t you show us the two other classes?



Oh it's because the soldier class has a +2 fortitude defense, putting the defenses of non-forceusers against Malachia as superior to jedi. Congratulations, by using stats, something I never would have unless you did first, you just debunked your entire case against Malachia, and infact supported mine.

Note that amusingly, you seemed to compare the fortitude defense of those he has used malachia on to scoundrels, yet scoundrels are noted to be tricksters, not something you would use to describe a “sentry” or “warriors” would you? A better word to compare to warriors would be soldiers. And a better word for sentry would be scout. So by stats, objectively, Rancisis has already used malachia on equally resistant targets (sentry) and outright harder (and a whole group of) targets than simple jedi (warriors).

Going on with your stat argument, you argue that as a jedi master, HoC should have much higher fortitude defense. But… let us look at what the stats you present as valid evidence say:



Even at lvl 20 you don’t get higher fortitude defense than at lvl 1 unless you spec into it. “But Cheth, how do we know HoC didn’t spend all his lvl up points on improving fortitude defense?” And oh am I glad you asked. Fortitude defense is improved by improving constitution;



But of all the available abilities, constitution is the ONLY one NOT suggested:



Now guess who it is suggested for: SOLDIERS. So a soldier, warrior or sentry is likely to have an even higher fortitude defense than HoC than just a +1 advantage:



How much fortitude defense do you start off with?



So HoC has 11 fortitude defense. To exceed that Oppo needs 11 or higher. A force check is a 1d20 (so already a little less than a 50:50 chance). However you also add half the characters level. Now in power of the jedi Oppo is lvl 13, which would be 6.5:



This means that to get 11, Oppo only needs a 5 in his throw, and thats excluding the 0.5. However Oppo’s level is from an older book (he’s not in the new one), and other jedi masters increased at least one level to the newest one (except Yoda who was max level):

Old:

New:


Old:

New:


So if we put Oppo at lvl 14, that means he only needs a 4 in his throw. However this still is not everything, as Oppo has skill emphasis, which gives a +3. So he only needs a 1, the lowest possible number to get:



This still isn’t everything, as skill emphasis actually doesn’t exist in the newest edition of the RPG, its been replaced by a skill focus, which actually gives a +5. Meaning that since Oppo’s ability would be replaced by the newest iteration of it, Oppo needs a -1 to use Malachia on him:



However this still isn’t everything as if a character is trained in a skill, you add a +5 on the check, and Oppo is trained in malachia, meaning he needs -6:



There is no mercy for HoC however, as he has the Force secret bonus to Malachia, a +1, meaning he needs a -7:



Finally there’s Oppo skill at Malachia itself, which to drive the final nail in the coffin, is a +18. Which brings us up to -25. If we added 1d20 to HoC’s fortitude defense, and he got a maximum score on it, Oppo would still need to roll -5 to fail to use Malachia on HoC in his own roll:



In other words, according to the stat argument you brought up, HoC dies instantly from the sheer potency of Oppo even considering using Malachia. Stats are not your friend RNG, they are your worst enemy, and I hope now you have learned never to try to wield them against me.

RNG wrote:But anyway: Like I said, the crux of that entire point is that it's not really a factor in a fight with Force users. Since they naturally have higher fortitudes, making it harder to effect them.

According to stats (which you validated the use of), jedi have way worse defenses against Malachia than regular soldiers.

RNG wrote:And you're trying to use roundabout examples instead of the direct comparisons we're shown in the lore. Malacia is in the same realm as pushes and mind tricks. Both of which can be resisted by force users who properly put up defenses. There really isn't any reason Malacia isn't the same.

Yet we consistently see forceusers get caught off guard before they can activate force shields: Kenobi against Dooku, Kyp Durron against Kenth Hammer, Sidious against Yoda, anyone in TCW who gets force pushed, etc. Also force defense is NOT an ability available to HoC in the game, so he never “had his defenses up”.

RNG wrote:That's IF you can get past the extra tough Jedi fortitude and their passive force shields.

Again, HoC does not have force shield. And ever since the second argument of your opener you have agreed (worse, you even were the one to bring it up in the first place) to the premise that HoC only has abilities that he has in-game:

RNG wrote:We already know he defeated TPM Maul extremely early on in his career. But did you know that he did so before he even knew how to use TK combatively?

[...]

You could chalk this up just gameplay mechanics but the intent is clear.

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RNG wrote:On the contrary, Malacia takes up more energy (VP/Vitality points) and is harder to use than normal offensive TK (force strike). Additionally it takes the same amount of energy to apply that as it does lightning. One of the most taxing abilities:

So Malachia is comparable to one of the strongest offensive force abilities, and takes as much effort as an ability that Sidious and Dooku spam with single gestures.

RNG wrote:Koon doesn't have to be as good with it as Rancisis in order to instantly take down Ventress with it if the ability ignored force defenses. And there's no indication that he's bad with the ability. That is what you'd have to prove. That he's substandard in his skill with it. Clone Wars CG says he can use it just fine. It wouldn't have given him the skill if he couldn't.

You say this so confidently that one could almost believe it! However sadly for you we do know that Plo Koon not only is inferior to Oppo at using it, he’s incredibly worse at using it. Plo Koon has Malachia listed as an ability he knows:



In the Clone Wars campaign guide, a further term is added to the levels of force abilities: force techniques:



These exist to show abilities that a character has a deeper understanding of and has used for years. Among these Advanced Malachia is clearly listed. This means that Plo Koon does NOT have a deep understanding, or even much practice, with Malachia. Force techniques are abilities on the level of jedi knights or sith apprentices, which means that in terms of using Malachia, Plo Koon is INFERIOR to how good a jedi knight who has devoted years of practice into it would be. In contrast, Oppo is repeatedly applauded as the premier master of Malachia.

This goes even further, as there’s also force secrets, which are when you have an ability on the level of a master:



And who has force secrets level of Malachia? OPPO RANCISIS



So the chain goes: Oppo (the premier master of Malachia) > Regular master-level wielder of Malachia > Knight-level wielder of Malachia > Padawan-level wielder of Malachia = Plo Koon

This is further supported by the fact that in Power of the Jedi, where Oppo is a force secret-level wielder of Malachia, Plo Koon doesn’t even KNOW the ability:



If we then go to look at Koon vs Ventress and why he didn’t use Malachia on her, Plo Koon’s only modifiers to his roll is a 7.5 (half his level) + 5 (for knowing the ability), which makes 12.5. Ventress’ fortitude save is a 26. To get a 26, Plo Koon needs a 13.5 roll, so less than a 50% chance, less than a 40% chance:



Now compare that to the fact that even before rolling dice, Oppo needs -25 on the roll to fail to beat a fortitude defense of 11. So he has 36 in total before even rolling. That's already 10 MORE than Ventress’ fortitude defense. Without rolling he would be able to use Malachia on Ventress.

Note also, just for the fun of it, that Yoda’s fortitude defence is 33, and Mace’s 34, so going by stats, Oppo could indeed affect Yoda with Malachia

Remember, you did this by unleashing stats, I hate them and would never have brought them up myself.

RNG wrote:Koon actually is able to TK her here. Meaning he broke through her force barrier. He coulda just turned Malacia on right here but it seems that the ability isn't even reliable enough for him to use it to keep her down. Her fortitude must just be too much for him to use it.

While this is no longer important, Plo Koon is also explicitly pushing her while he’s not looking at her, meaning he couldn’t have used Malachia.

RNG wrote:As if that's the only evidence that points to it being harder to use. Refer back to the vitality points argument. Hell, even that aside, like I said, carefully focusing and pouring energy into a specific area of a target is harder to do than just force pushing. It's inherently more taxing.

It is explicitly the only evidence for it, and its only evidence for it by you explicitly putting the word out of context (as shown in my last post). The stats thing shows it to be as difficult to use as lightning, an ability Dooku and Sidious both consistently use in combat, and which consistently can break straight through “passive force defences''.

The End of the Self-Insert

Frankly, if one wants to believe any part of RNG’s case, one must be willing to have double-standards. Since that is what every argument he has presented relies upon. From the start, he has tried to lock Rancisis under supremacy quotes that also would lock HoC himself. From the start, he has argued that: “But did you know that he did so before he even knew how to use TK combatively? [...] You could chalk this up just gameplay mechanics but the intent is clear.” and when I then point out the fact that the same intent would apply to his overall abilities/skills (especially since not knowing force push as an actual padawan shows that he’s inept with the force in on itself), he complains about me putting too much weight on game mechanics; suddenly its no longer considered intent. He argues that force pushes are useless because HoC can sense them and block them with force shield, and then argues that HoC can simply dismiss Rancisis’ partner with a simple force push without ever lowering his guard.

Meanwhile even if you do not buy the arguments for Rancisis’ power, if you do not buy the arguments for Rancisis’ skill, you still have countless other factors for his winning this matchup. Far superior knowledge, far superior experience, far superior wisdom, far superior tactics and strategy, multiple ways of attacking in melee besides his lightsaber, two esoteric abilities HoC has no experience against, and no matter what you think of Greedo, at minimum an added distraction, at best a dangerous opponent with Oppo’s BM. RNG never makes a counter to any of these, he does not provide ways for HoC to counter them. He says that HoC will simply sense every attack. He says that a simple force shield will block everything. He says that no matter how many angles Rancisis attacks from, somehow HoC will always have time to counter every single one.

To back RNG’s case is to back the belief that jedi are invincible, that they never can lose. Anyone who has ever read, watched, or played any Star Wars content, knows that there is no such thing as invincibility in SW, no matter how powerful. Be it Sidious or Abeloth, they can all know defeat. And today, so will the so-called “Hero” of Coruscant.

As a final point, and one I find important; I inquire you to look at how the debaters present their opponents character. While I have pointed out the circumstances of HoC's fights, NEVER did I question those he did legitimatively win: Maul, Jango, etc. And while I argued that he isn't as high as RNG thinks, he still is an exceptionally potent duelist (which RNG immediately tried to use against me). With my case, Rancisis and Greedo beat HoC, but he still is considered a high tier fighter. Meanwhile look at how RNG's arguments work: he argues that any jedi, even generic fodder ones, could block Malachia easily. A martial arts technique which one of the High Council is famous for having mastered, and is alone stated to be a reason for why he's one of the most powerful on the council. He would have you believe that Rancisis is inept at using battlemeditation, that he's inferior to a completely untrained Nomi Sunrider. And the list goes on.

To buy RNG's case, you need to buy that a jedi high council member, who RNG agreed was the tetriary master of the council and superior or equal to ROTS Kenobi, is utterly incapable of beating jedi padawans with his two strongest techniques. To buy my case; you simply have to acknowledge that while HoC is extremely skilled, so is Rancisis, and he wins by his CENTURIES of experience, training, wisdom, strategies, and mystic techniques.