Mace Windu vs General Grievous

Pre-ROTS Mace

Sabers
Force
All-out

Location: Boz Pity field

Either Way
Mace Crushes more than his chest
Mace Again

If it's Force/All-out he obviously just crushes him again. Not sure about sabers, pre-office Mace did manage to outmaneuver Grievous in LOE. Grievous seemed really impressed by it too.

Loe was the definition of an allout battle. If he couldve just crushed Greivous, he would have

KingofBlades wrote:Loe was the definition of an allout battle. If he couldve just crushed Greivous, he would have

Up

You mean when he crushed GG like 30 minutes later?

A separate encounter that doesnt address what i said yes

Windu takes all

Sabers- Given Windu's tier 9 status, he's on the same tier as Yoda/Anakin/Sidious (though not necessarily equal). I'm counting Windu as tier 9 as the stip says pre-RotS but not how far before so one could assume it's right before RotS. Meanwhile, Kenobi as a tier 8 was able to more than hold his own vs Grievous. Part of that success was due to form but if Kenobi didn't have the augmentation to keep up with Grievous, the favorable form would not have mattered. Considering this, Mace's aug would be more than enough to outspeed Grievous.

Force- Given Grievous has no force powers, this result is obvious.

All out- Windu would either outduel Grievous or crush his chest (or a mix of both)

Trayus Marauder wrote:Windu takes all

Sabers- Given Windu's tier 9 status, he's on the same tier as Yoda/Anakin/Sidious (though not necessarily equal). I'm counting Windu as tier 9 as the stip says pre-RotS but not how far before so one could assume it's right before RotS. Meanwhile, Kenobi as a tier 8 was able to more than hold his own vs Grievous. Part of that success was due to form but if Kenobi didn't have the augmentation to keep up with Grievous, the favorable form would not have mattered. Considering this, Mace's aug would be more than enough to outspeed Grievous.

Force- Given Grievous has no force powers, this result is obvious.

All out- Windu would either outduel Grievous or crush his chest (or a mix of both)

Revenge of the Sith wrote:The electrodrivers that powered Grievous's limbs could move them faster than the human eye can see; when he swung his arm, it and his fist and the lightsaber within it would literally vanish: wiped from existence by sheer mind-numbing speed, an imitation quantum event. No human being could move remotely as fast as Grievous, not even Obi-Wan - but he didn't have to

Kenobi not only admits he's unable to move nearly as quick as Grievous, he even says no human could

@Nute_Chethray

But note that in the G-Canon version of the fight, Kenobi is able to maneuver to block/dodge Grievous and sever two of his hands quite rapidly.

Trayus Marauder wrote:@Nute_Chethray

But note that in the G-Canon version of the fight, Kenobi is able to maneuver to block/dodge Grievous and sever two of his hands quite rapidly.

Blocking, dodging, and outmaneuvering someone does not equal being as quick or close to as quick as someone

@Nute_Chethray

Never said it did but the G-Canon showing defies the idea that Kenobi's speed is drastically lower than Grievous. If it were, that fight sequence wouldn't make sense because if Grievous could move at a speed that Kenobi couldn't remotely compare to, Grievous could have theoretically blitzed or at least would have moved at such a speed where Kenobi's strikes would be effectively negated. A bit hard to explain losing hands to someone who cannot move remotely as fast as you. So while Kenobi doesn't necessarily have the speed to match and/or exceed Grievous, he is fast enough to the point where his augmentation could be regarded as loosely comparable to Grievous's movement overall. And considering the "enormous" gap between tier 8 and 9 as noted by Gillard, Grievous would have to have a level of speed that scales enormously beyond Kenobi just to be in the same ballpark as Windu.

Grievous takes sabers, even against non-office ROTS Windu.

Trayus Marauder wrote:@Nute_Chethray

Never said it did but the G-Canon showing defies the idea that Kenobi's speed is drastically lower than Grievous. If it were, that fight sequence wouldn't make sense because if Grievous could move at a speed that Kenobi couldn't remotely compare to, Grievous could have theoretically blitzed or at least would have moved at such a speed where Kenobi's strikes would be effectively negated. A bit hard to explain losing hands to someone who cannot move remotely as fast as you. So while Kenobi doesn't necessarily have the speed to match and/or exceed Grievous, he is fast enough to the point where his augmentation could be regarded as loosely comparable to Grievous's movement overall. And considering the "enormous" gap between tier 8 and 9 as noted by Gillard, Grievous would have to have a level of speed that scales enormously beyond Kenobi just to be in the same ballpark as Windu.

Kenobi specifically states he can't move as quickly as Grievous (and no human could, which would include Mace), but him reacting to Grievous is explained by two factors:

1. Kenobi states he doesn't have to move as quickly due to the force guiding his defence so he can block strikes before they even reach him: 

Revenge of the Sith wrote:The electrodrivers that powered Grievous's limbs could move them faster than the human eye can see; when he swung his arm, it and his fist and the lightsaber within it would literally vanish: wiped from existence by sheer mind-numbing speed, an imitation quantum event. No human being could move remotely as fast as Grievous, not even Obi-Wan - but he didn't have to.
In the Force, part of him was Grievous's intent to slaughter, and the surge of intent to action translated to Obi-Wan's response without thought. He had no need for a plan, no use for tactics.
He had the Force. 

2. Obi-Wan's defence consisted of minimalistic movements and blocking multiple strikes simultaneously, meaning that he would barely be moving at all

Revenge of the sith wrote:After all, he had often walked unscathed through hornet-swarms of blasterfire, defended only by the Force's direction of his blade; countering twelve blows per second was only difficult, not impossible. His blade wove an intricate web of angles and curves, never truly fast but always just fast enough, each motion of his lightsaber subtly interfering with three or four or eight of the general's strikes, the rest sizzling past him, his precise, minimal shifts of weight and stance slipping them by centimeters.

Also the argument that tier 8s can't move even close to tier 9s is incorrect anyways, shown by for example Dooku reacting to Yoda and IH Anakin. Even worse with Kit Fisto blocking strikes from Sidious, a tier 7 vs 9. 

All of this also ignores the fact Grievous has moved fast enough to fight and impress Mace before. 

Labyrinth of Evil wrote:As Mace already knew from Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti, Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. He could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing.

@Nute_Chethray

Kenobi's movement capabilities being boosted by the force is a consistent factor so when judging in overall speed/movement comparisons, a force guided state would be considered as a default.

The tier comparison you draw on doesn't exactly work. In the case of the Dooku comparisons, Yoda was a tier 8 in their duel during AotC, and Anakin's level 9 capabilities were only seen when Anakin was utterly crushing Dooku. As for the Fisto comparison, his blocking strikes from Sidious were more due to the fact that Sidious was dealing with Mace as well and even with level 9 support, Fisto fell very quickly.

Grievous's speed may have impressed Windu but that doesn't necessarily prove that he can match Windu's augmentation. One could argue that Windu was astonished that Grievous was another member of an elite few that held tier 8 or above level dueling.

Thats not a factor in speed though, thats precognition

No counters to point 2

Source for tier 8 Yoda? 

Anakin beat Dooku by overpowering him, but Dooku still reacted to his attacks multiple times

Fisto would still have to be fast enough to block Sidious's strikes though

Yet Grievous still blocked Mace's strikes repeatedly

Kenobi would need sufficient speed to take advantage of that precognition. Not necessarily equal speed but he still has to move the blade/dodge/strike etc

Point 2 didn't really make an impact against my overall argument so it didn't really need to be addressed. It's more tied into point 1 which I addressed.

Considering Yoda was being held off by Dooku who showed visible exhaustion after dealing with Anakin shows that Yoda wasn't at tier 9 at that stage.

Reaction doesn't equal equality. I mean you're using that argument yourself. And I never said reaction from lower tiers against higher tiers was out of the question, I just pointed out that inferior speed is a factor.

But those strikes wouldn't have the same level of focus/speed as they would in a 1v1 scenario. A lot of Sidious's energy in that engagement was spent on attacking/defending against his peer rather than someone who is inferior. Similar to how Grievous wasn't able to overwhelm inferior fighters on Hypori initially simply due to the numbers. Yet when isolated, most of the Jedi broke like cheap glass.

See my reaction point/counter.

Mace edges him out in sabers.

Trayus Marauder wrote:Kenobi would need sufficient speed to take advantage of that precognition. Not necessarily equal speed but he still has to move the blade/dodge/strike etc

Point 2 didn't really make an impact against my overall argument so it didn't really need to be addressed. It's more tied into point 1 which I addressed.

Considering Yoda was being held off by Dooku who showed visible exhaustion after dealing with Anakin shows that Yoda wasn't at tier 9 at that stage.

Reaction doesn't equal equality. I mean you're using that argument yourself. And I never said reaction from lower tiers against higher tiers was out of the question, I just pointed out that inferior speed is a factor.

But those strikes wouldn't have the same level of focus/speed as they would in a 1v1 scenario. A lot of Sidious's energy in that engagement was spent on attacking/defending against his peer rather than someone who is inferior. Similar to how Grievous wasn't able to overwhelm inferior fighters on Hypori initially simply due to the numbers. Yet when isolated, most of the Jedi broke like cheap glass.

See my reaction point/counter.

Already explained

It explains why speed isn't necessary to counter

Its proof that different tiers can react to each other, not that Yoda was weaker than he was in ROTS, you'd need seperate quotes for that 

Yet you're arguing that if Kenobi can react to Grievous, Mace would win with speed as the only factor mentioned

Why would the speed Sidious operates at be less when in a 1v2, would that not instead suggest he's working at peak efficiency to fight off Mace while trying to get rid of Kit as quickly as possible to even the battle. Also not sure what you mean with Hypori, if anything the opposite is true, the more jedi he eliminated the longer it took to take the next, with Shaak and Ki taking the longest

I don't see any

Your speed point describes the use of "minimalistic movement" and "blocking multiple strikes at once". Note that in order to perform that, Kenobi would still need a certain degree of speed in order to react and act on the precognition that the force provides him. Seeing what's coming still requires an adequate action/reaction in order to deal with a dueling scenario.

The Yoda differences are pretty simple. During RotS, Yoda and Anakin were both defined as 9's. In AotC, Yoda is dueling at Dooku's level despite Dooku being exhausted. Considering how easily Dooku loses to tier 9 levels of power, speed, and overall dueling capability, Yoda as of RotS would win that matchup almost as easily as Anakin. Arguably easier but RotS Yoda vs Anakin would be taking that match too far off-topic imo. This is why I said AotC Yoda is level 8 overall. While there's nothing that explicitly says that, it's the most logical way to fit him into the Gillard list considering scaling and performances across the two movies.

I mentioned Mace's speed is better than Grievous as one factor, never said it was the only one. Dueling skill would also be a crucial factor but I figured that gap spoke for itself considering Windu is winning vs Sidious while Grievous is losing to Kenobi.

For the Hypori comparison, I'll leave times to observe to make it a bit easier to follow (just in case the fight isn't fresh in your mind):



3:18-3:43- note how Grievous is unable to break through their defences despite all of them being inferior duelists. But the numbers were making an impact on Grievous's ability to take them out so he opted to isolate and then attack.

3:43- 3:53- Yet when alone, Grievous mows through his defence with little trouble

4:00-4:06- two more examples of how he was able to easily beat Jedi that were able to hold him off when part of the pack

Same logic applies to Fisto/Windu vs Sidious. In a group engagement, Sidious doesn't have the freedom to fully press against the defences of a lone Jedi. Sidious quickly won vs Fisto anyway but logically speaking, it would have been quicker if it were a 1v1 fight which is supported by Gillard placing Fisto down in tier 7.

mace doesnt have the defense that obi wan does, BUT we know that mace can fight people like dooku, who have beaten gg before. ill say mace for now.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:mace doesnt have the defense that obi wan does, BUT we know that mace can fight people like dooku, who have beaten gg before. ill say mace for now.

To be fair, Dooku has only beat Grievous in spars, where both are holding back their physical attributes (which would naturally hinder Grievous more). If we were to solely go off spars than Plo Koon>Yoda.