Wyylork Pulled A Kirak Kill

In the same way that Kirak was distracted and ultimately killed by Vader, it seems that Andeddu met the same fate.

https://comicnewbies.com/2017/08/03/how-darth-vader-defeated-kirak-infila/


I suppose Andeddu will be soft-retconned to be Tulak Hord's apprentice (Credit to DarthAnt66). Therefore, Andeddu would be included in this accolade:

Kreia (Kotor 2) wrote:"The blind seer, her master harnessed this technique and he is rapidly approaching the height of its power. I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith. He is already more of a force than a living thing, a hole in the Force that threatens to draw everything to it.”

Wyylork seems to have distracted Andeddu by "destroying" his ancient texts of knowledge.




So unless you assume that Wyylork>Nihilus, there isn't much to be refuted.

I don't think this is a proven fact, but I do think it is an interesting concept to consider. What do you guys think?

Sad thing is some ppl genuinely have Wyyrlok above Nihilus.

Everything that happened to ancient knowledge was an illusion. All Wyyrlok did was destroy Andeddu in his own field, so how the hell are you trying to discredit him? Comparison with Kirak is inappropriate: use one's own illusionary powers to confuse and kill the enemy =/= take advantage of the enemy's morale, civilians, and the environment.

The fact that Andeddu saw anything at all is testament to Wyyrlock dominating him at the time with TP

I wouldn't say this dialogue indicates any form of distraction. Andeddu's focus was still on Wyyrlok and his assault.

Considering that Wyyrlok was able to genuinely fight Krayt Reborn (who scales above FotJ Krayt), I'd say Wyyrlok>Nihilus is far from an outrageous conclusion.

Pretty good observation. Andeddu is quite pathetic though I have to say, his shenanigans with essence transfer are actually trash compared to most ancient Sith even lesser known ones remaining as spirits. Andeddu in prime is likely higher than GM Luke but nowhere near even Muur levels.

Wyyrlok defeated Andeddu decisively in all aspects of the Force.

Andeddu started off by launching bolts of Force lightning at Wyyrlok, which he deflected with his bare hand.



When that failed, Andeddu chose to instead attack Wyyrlok's mind. He even says that telepathy is "a field of my choosing!"

Wyyrlok quickly realises that the rocks being thrown at him are an illusion.





Wyyrlok then ensnares Andeddu in an illuision of his own and quickly defeats him.







So no, it is not a "distraction". It is a battle on the mental plane that Andeddu initiated.

Examining the fight in full makes it clear that Wyyrlok is far more powerful and skilled than Andeddu, even "on a field of [Andeddu's] choosing".

@Tybalt
I will do some more research on the subject, but yes, it did seem that Wyylork was performing better than Andeddu in the comic.

Though, do you believe that Wyylork>Nihilus?

Both are sub ancients and that's all that matters 

@VictreebelVictr

Though, do you believe that Wyylork>Nihilus?

Where do you rank Andeddu relative to Nihilus?

Tybalt wrote:Where do you rank Andeddu relative to Nihilus?

Above Nihilus, or, I am considering it.

@VictreebelVictr

Above Nihilus, or, I am considering it.

Based purely on that then yes.

It really depends though on if you include Andeddu in Kreia's quote about Nihilus approaching the Ancient Sith.

Tybalt wrote:@VictreebelVictr

Above Nihilus, or, I am considering it.

Based purely on that then yes.

It really depends though on if you include Andeddu in Kreia's quote about Nihilus approaching the Ancient Sith.

Yup.

Maybe we should just wait until SE to find out all the minor details. It seems possible that Andeddu had plenty of knowledge, but lacked experience and combative feats.

@Tybalt

Tybalt wrote:Andeddu started off by launching bolts of Force lightning at Wyyrlok, which he deflected with his bare hand.

How does absorbing lightning in one's hand make them automatically superior? Revan used tutaminis against Vitiate, but this does not make Revan>Tenebrae.

It also would not make sense if Andeddu were to use his full power in that attack either. If anything, he might not have even tried too hard if you take Andeddu's arrogance and pride into consideration.

Tybalt wrote:Wyyrlok quickly realises that the rocks being thrown at him are an illusion.

Yes, but he also got absolutely launched by a force push. Since Andeddu broke through Wyylork's passive barrier, it isn't excessive to think that Andeddu was in his league.  

Tybalt wrote:Wyyrlok then ensnares Andeddu in an illuision of his own and quickly defeats him.

Andeddu countered the first wave of lava, then he got Kirak Killed (possibly).



Andeddu was never "trapped" (which is a synonym to "ensnare") before getting distracted by Wyylork's cleverness. If anything, he was evidently countering Wyylork's advances. In fact, I don't think Wyylork made any successful advances on Andeddu besides the Sneaky Pete he pulled.  

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Andeddu lost all form when he ran to cover his books of knowledge. I don't see this as overpowering, but rather, a complete distraction. Wyylork also lied to Andeddu about "destroying" his books. This is evident that he was simply tricking the long-dead Sith Lord because it was not the truth. He never did destroy Andeddu's relics, instead, he studied them for answers.



And if you look very closely, you will notice that Wyylork brought a few of Andeddu's notes home with him.



One might debate that Andeddu "falling for it" automatically makes him inferior. I think Wyylork simply discovered Andeddu's weakness, which was his absolute obsession with protecting his knowledge from others. This would logically affect him to respond desperately and erratically.



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Andeddu also woke up after a 4,000+ year nap, so it could definitely be that he was very rusty. That is simply logical and irrefutable.

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Again, I don't believe that this is a completely reassured theory, but it does bring to light what could have really happened. Feat wise, I simply don't see Wyylork on a Nihilus level, and considering that Andeddu>Nihilus makes this whole thing seem a bit fishy. The idea that Wyylork just beat his ass and left does not support what is actually portrayed in the scans.

I appreciate your involvement with this thread by the way.

@VictreebelVictr

How does absorbing lightning in one's hand make them automatically superior? Revan used tutaminis against Vitiate, but this does not make Revan>Tenebrae.

It also would not make sense if Andeddu were to use his full power in that attack either. If anything, he might not have even tried too hard if you take Andeddu's arrogance and pride into consideration.

It may not necessarily make him superior, and we don't know if Andeddu put his full power behind it, but the fact that it did nothing to Wyyrlok and Andeddu immediately chose to change course and attack him mentally speaks for itself. Again, Andeddu notes that telepathy is his strongest area.

Yes, but he also got absolutely launched by a force push. Since Andeddu broke through Wyylork's passive barrier, it isn't excessive to think that Andeddu was in his league.  

That doesn't indicate parity at all.

Andeddu countered the first wave of lava, then he got Kirak Killed (possibly).

Is this supposed to be impressive?

Andeddu was never "trapped" (which is a synonym to "ensnare") before getting distracted by Wyylork's cleverness. If anything, he was evidently countering Wyylork's advances. In fact, I don't think Wyylork made any successful advances on Andeddu besides the Sneaky Pete he pulled.  

Wyyrlok is literally mentally attacking Andeddu and he is reacting to that mental attack. He was ensnared in Wyyrlok's illusion. And again, Andeddu initiated the mental battle so it's not sneaky at all.

Andeddu lost all form when he ran to cover his books of knowledge. I don't see this as overpowering, but rather, a complete distraction. Wyylork also lied to Andeddu about "destroying" his books. This is evident that he was simply tricking the long-dead Sith Lord because it was not the truth. He never did destroy Andeddu's relics, instead, he studied them for answers.

Further proof that Andeddu is losing the mental battle.

And if you look very closely, you will notice that Wyylork brought a few of Andeddu's notes home with him.

Yes, because him destroying them was an illusion. Which Andeddu fell for.

One might debate that Andeddu "falling for it" automatically makes him inferior. I think Wyylork simply discovered Andeddu's weakness, which was his absolute obsession with protecting his knowledge from others. This would logically affect him to respond desperately and erratically.

There is no debate. He was acting erratically because he believed that the illusion was real.

Andeddu also woke up after a 4,000+ year nap, so it could definitely be that he was very rusty. That is simply logical and irrefutable.

Something being logical does not make it irrefutable. Andeddu believed himself to be at full power, and did not mention feeling weakened. He evidently thought that he was strong enough to defeat Wyyrlok despite sensing his Force power.

Again, I don't believe that this is a completely reassured theory, but it does bring to light what could have really happened. Feat wise, I simply don't see Wyylork on a Nihilus level, and considering that Andeddu>Nihilus makes this whole thing seem a bit fishy. The idea that Wyylork just beat his ass and left does not support what is actually portrayed in the scans.

Based on his performance I can't see Andeddu being anywhere near Nihilus in power, and I don't personally include him in Kreia's quote.

The scans literally show that to be the case. That's irrefutable.

I appreciate your involvement with this thread by the way.

Tybalt wrote:It may not necessarily make him superior, and we don't know if Andeddu put his full power behind it, but the fact that it did nothing to Wyyrlok and Andeddu immediately chose to change course and attack him mentally speaks for itself.

Andeddu likely did not have his full power in the attack yes. Though it is impressive that Wyylork protected himself from it, I wouldn't use this to debate Wyylork's superiority. It being Andeddu's first attack could have also been a way to gauge Wyylork's power. There is just too many factors that go into this one.

Tybalt wrote:Again, Andeddu notes that telepathy is his strongest area.

It seems that Andeddu met some challenge in Wyylork yes, so it would be reasonable to resort to his strongest area. One could desire to have an edge without being inferior.

Tybalt wrote:That doesn't indicate parity at all.

I never said it displayed parity. It is simply impressive and counters the idea that Wyylork absolutely outclasses him.

Tybalt wrote:Is this supposed to be impressive?

Sure, but it also displays that Wyylork failed to successfully advance Andeddu outside of the Kirak Kill. In fact, it seems that Andeddu might have been winning before he got distracted considering the damage he dealt.

Tybalt wrote:Wyyrlok is literally mentally attacking Andeddu and he is reacting to that mental attack. He was ensnared in Wyyrlok's illusion. And again, Andeddu initiated the mental battle so it's not sneaky at all.

Yes, he was ensnared and killed after Wyylork "blew up" his sacred books.

Tybalt wrote:Further proof that Andeddu is losing the mental battle.

How?

Thanaton telekinetically cheap-shotting Exal Kressh from behind with a lightsaber doesn't make Thanaton>Kressh in lightsaber combat.

Tybalt wrote:Yes, because him destroying them was an illusion. Which Andeddu fell for.

He recognized Andeddu's personal weakness, similar to Vader recognizing Kirak's.

If anything, this supports my point.

Tybalt wrote:He was acting erratically because he believed that the illusion was real.

I can agree to that.

But why did he think it was real? Right, because it targetted what he cherished the most. As I have said before, this would be a personal weakness rather than one that considers "power".

Tybalt wrote:Something being logical does not make it irrefutable. Andeddu believed himself to be at full power, and did not mention feeling weakened. He evidently thought that he was strong enough to defeat Wyyrlok despite sensing his Force power.

You can be at full power but still be rusty. Tis why I specifically chose that word.

You are right, he did. This is another reason that Andeddu might not have gone all out with his first lightning attack actually.

Tybalt wrote:Based on his performance I can't see Andeddu being anywhere near Nihilus in power, and I don't personally include him in Kreia's quote.

The scans literally show that to be the case. That's irrefutable.

Based on these scans maybe not. As I said, I am still trying to figure out how Aneddu fits in the SW universe power-wise. I hope SE covers him some more.

@VictreebelVictr

You forgot to tag me.

Andeddu likely did not have his full power in the attack yes. Though it is impressive that Wyylork protected himself from it, I wouldn't use this to debate Wyylork's superiority. It being Andeddu's first attack could have also been a way to gauge Wyylork's power. There is just too many factors that go into this one.

Neither showing is impressive.

It seems that Andeddu met some challenge in Wyylork yes, so it would be reasonable to resort to his strongest area. One could desire to have an edge without being inferior.

Not an argument.

I never said it displayed parity. It is simply impressive and counters the idea that Wyylork absolutely outclasses him.

Absolutely not. Weaker Force-users have Force pushed stronger Force-users countless times in the mythos. It does not denote any kind of parity.

Sure, but it also displays that Wyylork failed to successfully advance Andeddu outside of the Kirak Kill. In fact, it seems that Andeddu might have been winning before he got distracted considering the damage he dealt.

What damage? It was a mental assault. Wyyrlok even says that in the next scan.

Yes, he was ensnared and killed after Wyylork "blew up" his sacred books.

No, the illusion was that the books were being destroyed. That's a mental attack. He was ensnared. This is a fact.

How?

He fell for the illusion. That's the definition of losing.

Thanaton telekinetically cheap-shotting Exal Kressh from behind with a lightsaber doesn't make Thanaton>Kressh in lightsaber combat.

Has absolutely nothing to do with this debate.

He recognized Andeddu's personal weakness, similar to Vader recognizing Kirak's.

If anything, this supports my point.

This is not difficult to understand. Andeddu initiated a telepathic battle. Which he lost. This is a fact.

I can agree to that.

Great, you agree he lost the telepathic battle that he initiated.

The debate is now over as that was my argument.