Re: Suspect Showdown (SS) Request Thread

[DarthAnt66Moderator]

I'll change my offer to TPM Kenobi vs Vader then, to better illustrate my point about my genuine annoyance of saying its completely baseless.

And note I don't even necessarily have TPM Kenobi above Vader, but I'll still back the argument.

[BreakofDawnLevel Seven]

I'll change my offer to TPM Kenobi vs Vader then, to better illustrate my point about my genuine annoyance of saying its unsubstantiated.

Ok, then let's do TPM Kenobi vs month after Mustafar Vader then. Seems like a fair match-up.

[DarthAnt66Moderator]

To clarify on my end, TPM Kenobi vs ROTJ Vader. If you want to argue earlier iterations of Vader are somehow stronger than ROTJ Vader, all the power to you. I don't care to go against that sentiment, as I think it's a clever work around that makes all parties happy, if it can be successfully done (which I have some ideas on).

[BreakofDawnLevel Seven]

Seen better bait on Spacebattles, honestly.

[DarthAnt66Moderator]

Sorry, but I'm actually not trying to bait you there?

I do genuinely think the best move for Vader is to argue his earlier iterations--TFU, namely--are stronger than OT Vader. This would make him exempt from Lucas and other PT > OT quotes. I have some ideas on how to do that too.

Though, as it pertains to what I'm interested in debating against, it would have to be ROTJ Vader. If you think ROTJ Vader is more powerful than Purge Vader, then I recommend you accept my challenge, since it should be far more easy for you.

[The lord of hungerLevel Two]

seen better bait even on vsbattles wikia without offense ant

[DarthAnt66Moderator]

Why am I baiting?

[DarthAnt66Moderator]

Anyway, not sure what all that is about, but I can try to clarify again:

- I'm potentially interested in a ROTJ Vader vs TPM Kenobi or TPM Qui-Gon debate. I don't necessarily even hold the opinion that TPM Kenobi beats ROTJ Vader, but I am growing increasingly frustrated by the slandering of members who have that position as biased, baseless, unsubstantiated, etc. I would like the opportunity to show that's not true. 

- I specifically want to do ROTJ Vader rather than early Vader iterations because I am a fanatical adherent to LFL policy. What Chee and Lucas says goes. You see that belief throughout all of my positions, especially the Malak quote. I think it's possible to argue OT Vader is weaker than TFU Vader, and if so then I would not oppose TFU Vader being far more powerful than what he is given credit for, since then most/all statements binding OT Vader beneath PT heavyweights would not apply to TFU Vader. Because the truth is I won't bat an eyelash if you think TFU Vader is better than Dooku, but I will find it suspect if you put OT Vader is better than Dooku, because the latter take runs directly contrary to LFL policy.

- In the case you think Purge Vader is weaker than ROTJ Vader, which I assume almost everyone does, then that all should be fine since arguing ROTJ Vader should be easier.

[LOTL]

Anyway, not sure what all that is about, but I can try to clarify again:

- I'm potentially interested in a ROTJ Vader vs TPM Kenobi or TPM Qui-Gon debate. I don't necessarily even hold the opinion that TPM Kenobi beats ROTJ Vader, but I am growing increasingly frustrated by the slandering of members who have that position as biased, baseless, unsubstantiated, etc. I would like the opportunity to show that's not true. 

- I specifically want to do ROTJ Vader rather than early Vader iterations because I am a fanatical adherent to LFL policy. What Chee and Lucas says goes. You see that belief throughout all of my positions, especially the Malak quote. I think it's possible to argue OT Vader is weaker than TFU Vader, and if so then I would not oppose TFU Vader being far more powerful than what he is given credit for, since then most/all statements binding OT Vader beneath PT heavyweights would not apply to TFU Vader. Because the truth is I won't bat an eyelash if you think TFU Vader is better than Dooku, but I will find it suspect if you put OT Vader is better than Dooku, because the latter take runs directly contrary to LFL policy.

- In the case you think Purge Vader is weaker than ROTJ Vader, which I assume almost everyone does, then that all should be fine since arguing ROTJ Vader should be easier.

What is the change in the short amount of time between the iterations that causes such a massive change in power for it to be feasible?

The main point is that we don't have a full littany of quotes from them across all timelines that specify that they maintain such an opinion across all timelines from 1999 to 2012. We have examples from Lucas specifically that involve him changing his opinions "all the time"

1. Ben is equal to Sidious in 1977 but then that is retconned by Lucas( or not, haven't really seen any statement contrary to it and force tiering only supports it but that is not relevant here)

2. Qui Gon is going to be the next big Master in TPM then. In 1999 he is hyped to be the next big thing, with the TPM novel even claiming that Obi Wan observes him to be the best ever( he likely also has been observing Yoda trounce those 3 Masters) and many quotes claiming that Qui Gon actually "is" the best. He plainly was intended to be at that level by LFL( even though we never have seen a statement from Lucas about his abilities) but then, in 2002, the coming of the Count to the movie basically retcons all that. Now, even though we haven't seen a statement from Lucas or Pablo about Qui Gon, it is not impossible to argue that that was the intent of the guy when you take all the C-canon quotes to from the opinion, by Lucas or Chee themselves in 1999 or after that, but before 2002

3. Dooku is then clearly Yoda level in 2002. No, not "approximately equal" or "in his league but noticeably inferior". His commentary basically implies flat out that Yoda=Dooku and even the lightsaber battle is one that is mostly equal. Yet in all honesty, you can't possibly claim that they are even in the same league in ROTS given

-Anakin stomps him in ROTS and he is not at full power
-Anakin, Yoda and Sidious are level 9 in ROTS meaning, they are all so equal that style and environment is going to tell the winner
-But the Count is level 8, an explicit "vast" inferior to the level 9 combatants and basically is "shown" to be vastly inferior to them by his battle with Anakin( who is more or less on par with them)

Not to mention TCW. Now, I see intent being thrown around a lot, but even though I am not a big fan of intent( as I see it as a variable quantity that changes all the time), being the playtoy of Savage Opress in the show, losing or stalemating "vastly" inferior versions of Anakin, and being choked for a "full 9" seconds by Sidious from "across the galaxy" is not at all indicative of a Yoda level combatant by any means

Obviously you can argue against all those instances and you are right to. But to a more basic point, can you possibly imagine Lucas approving Sidious choking Yoda from across the galaxy, for such a massive an amount of time as that, threatening him with punishment( combined with the choke, it is not a huge leap to infer what the punishment can be). You frequently observe these intent arguments coming time and again( in fact, it is the main point that the Count's supporters employ to argue why he is significantly above Obi Wan) yet, they never have been brought against the Count. I for one, cannot imagine that Lucas can sanction such a scene at all

Now, all the above tells me a simple story. Count Dooku was meant to be an equal to Yoda, yet that was thrown out once Sidious came into the mix. Now, I obviously don't buy the whole "Yoda grew infinitely" theory as I am pretty sure that is not what the creators thought. And there is a very clear trend that you notice that he hypes his villains/heroes for temporary effect. To serve the story. The Count simply served no role in the story in ROTS and was a clear variable to show the power of the tier 9 combatants and hence was written to be easily overcome by Anakin. In contrast, he has a massive role in AoTC, he is to fight Yoda, to be the captain of a movement that is almost meant to take over the galaxy. The story requires him to be immensely powerful and he then is written to be so.

Let's also observe that the OCW treats that notion and brings it out legitimately. It treats the Count as a legit equal to Yoda and the novels and the show is centered on that. Why? Because Palpatine is an unknown quantity then. It basically is going off what is given to it, that is only the battle in the movie.

But what happens once Palpatine and the level 9 combatants become a properly familiar quantity? TCW

Observe that the power levels fluctuate as the story changes in the movies at will. My view on this is corroborated by Matt Martin, who even states that "Lucas contradicted even himself all the time" and that even the guy's opinions shouldn't be taken seriously. Obviously I don't agree with the latter but the former rings true by so many examples that we have

Exactly like that, once 1999 comes into play, Lucas then begins shitting on the OT and Vader. Emphasizing that the Masters of this era have much more power, are "real", much faster etc. Why? Could it possibly be to overplay this new era to generate more hype, more interest among the viewership? Like LFL did to generate more hype for Qui Gon and Maul( >Yoda)? Like they did to claim that Dooku=Yoda? Only to turn that around and have Yoda's equal in Anakin beat him so easily. Is it possibly that the hype for Dooku was thrown to make room for Anakin and Sidious both of whom were not familiar quantities till then? Note that Lucas is going for the general audience. The casual fans of the movie. He absolutely does not make his movies or write novels that are meant to be hyper analyzed to the tune of "potentially actualized potential power" or "actualized yet inaccessible power" or any other shenanigans that we employ.

It might be. Very high probability that it is actually so. Hence, if this was 2004, Vader being sub TPM Obi Wan level makes much more sense and I would buy it.

Now, when you look at the post 2005 era and the fact that Vader is viewed to be an immensely powerful monster by virtually almost all sources that mention him( DLTRODV even mentions the opinion of Shryne that 19 BBY Vader>Grevious lmao), you might contemplate the reason as to the abrupt change in tune. But I am sure that it has nothing at all to the fact that the focus of the story has now been shifted to "Vader" and that the story requires him to be this "all powerful" Sith enforcer, hunting powerful force users in the galaxy. You even have Lucas stating that "Vader is now not like Sidious, he is like Dooku or Maul". Again, I can assure you that there is absolutely no way Lucas has thoughts about Vader being sub-TPM Obi Wan or Qui Gon, yet claiming that Vader is "like" Dooku or Maul. And no matter how many times we people twist and reinterpret the quote to fit with our view of the character to change power levels of the characters that he mentions there, the simple fact is that a simple statement like:

Vader is now not like Sidious, he is like Dooku or Maul


Means exactly that-Vader was like Sidious( level 9), now he is not, he is like Dooku or Maul( level 8). This again ties in to Lucas having changed his opinion on the Count. If the Count was a legit equal to Yoda then that statement becomes pointless because then he is "already like Palpatine". He can even now challenge Palpatine and maybe even win( especially so when you observe that Palpatine essentially lost the lightsaber contest in the movie) and this applies regardless of whether the quote talks about power or potential, hence I believe that the notion of the Count being relative to Yoda or the tier 9 combatants is pretty obviously wrong by the ROTS movie and movie


To such an extent that you even begin to entertain the notion that pre-OT Vader can be superior to the Count, when now you scoff on it pertaining to OT Vader. Honestly, IU, what can possibly change in the 2 or so years that warrants that level of change in power? Moreover, you really think that LFL has the opinion that "Yeah let's have those opinions on Vader being sub Qui Gon for OT Vader but obviously TFU Vader is infinitely better even though that happens only two years before the story of the OT"?

Can it not be, the most simple, obvious explanation that exactly like Ben, Qui Gon etc. Vader's power level has changed with time? That once the focus of the story shifts to him, rather than having new characters seem better "at his expense" for some time, that he is once again the monster that he was?

Again, the above is basically observations etc. than a proper case but I believe it has some merit

[LOTL]

I actually want to have an epic level argument on these topics but not sure I'll have the time to honor it

[Latham2000Level Three]

What is the change in the short amount of time between the iterations that causes such a massive change in power for it to be feasible?

The main point is that we don't have a full littany of quotes from them across all timelines that specify that they maintain such an opinion across all timelines from 1999 to 2012. We have examples from Lucas specifically that involve him changing his opinions "all the time"

1. Ben is equal to Sidious in 1977 but then that is retconned by Lucas( or not, haven't really seen any statement contrary to it and force tiering only supports it but that is not relevant here)

2. Qui Gon is going to be the next big Master in TPM then. In 1999 he is hyped to be the next big thing, with the TPM novel even claiming that Obi Wan observes him to be the best ever( he likely also has been observing Yoda trounce those 3 Masters) and many quotes claiming that Qui Gon actually "is" the best. He plainly was intended to be at that level by LFL( even though we never have seen a statement from Lucas about his abilities) but then, in 2002, the coming of the Count to the movie basically retcons all that. Now, even though we haven't seen a statement from Lucas or Pablo about Qui Gon, it is not impossible to argue that that was the intent of the guy when you take all the C-canon quotes to from the opinion, by Lucas or Chee themselves in 1999 or after that, but before 2002

3. Dooku is then clearly Yoda level in 2002. No, not "approximately equal" or "in his league but noticeably inferior". His commentary basically implies flat out that Yoda=Dooku and even the lightsaber battle is one that is mostly equal. Yet in all honesty, you can't possibly claim that they are even in the same league in ROTS given

-Anakin stomps him in ROTS and he is not at full power
-Anakin, Yoda and Sidious are level 9 in ROTS meaning, they are all so equal that style and environment is going to tell the winner
-But the Count is level 8, an explicit "vast" inferior to the level 9 combatants and basically is "shown" to be vastly inferior to them by his battle with Anakin( who is more or less on par with them)

Not to mention TCW. Now, I see intent being thrown around a lot, but even though I am not a big fan of intent( as I see it as a variable quantity that changes all the time), being the playtoy of Savage Opress in the show, losing or stalemating "vastly" inferior versions of Anakin, and being choked for a "full 9" seconds by Sidious from "across the galaxy" is not at all indicative of a Yoda level combatant by any means

Obviously you can argue against all those instances and you are right to. But to a more basic point, can you possibly imagine Lucas approving Sidious choking Yoda from across the galaxy, for such a massive an amount of time as that, threatening him with punishment( combined with the choke, it is not a huge leap to infer what the punishment can be). You frequently observe these intent arguments coming time and again( in fact, it is the main point that the Count's supporters employ to argue why he is significantly above Obi Wan) yet, they never have been brought against the Count. I for one, cannot imagine that Lucas can sanction such a scene at all

Now, all the above tells me a simple story. Count Dooku was meant to be an equal to Yoda, yet that was thrown out once Sidious came into the mix. Now, I obviously don't buy the whole "Yoda grew infinitely" theory as I am pretty sure that is not what the creators thought. And there is a very clear trend that you notice that he hypes his villains/heroes for temporary effect. To serve the story. The Count simply served no role in the story in ROTS and was a clear variable to show the power of the tier 9 combatants and hence was written to be easily overcome by Anakin. In contrast, he has a massive role in AoTC, he is to fight Yoda, to be the captain of a movement that is almost meant to take over the galaxy. The story requires him to be immensely powerful and he then is written to be so.

Let's also observe that the OCW treats that notion and brings it out legitimately. It treats the Count as a legit equal to Yoda and the novels and the show is centered on that. Why? Because Palpatine is an unknown quantity then. It basically is going off what is given to it, that is only the battle in the movie.

But what happens once Palpatine and the level 9 combatants become a properly familiar quantity? TCW

Observe that the power levels fluctuate as the story changes in the movies at will. My view on this is corroborated by Matt Martin, who even states that "Lucas contradicted even himself all the time" and that even the guy's opinions shouldn't be taken seriously. Obviously I don't agree with the latter but the former rings true by so many examples that we have

Exactly like that, once 1999 comes into play, Lucas then begins shitting on the OT and Vader. Emphasizing that the Masters of this era have much more power, are "real", much faster etc. Why? Could it possibly be to overplay this new era to generate more hype, more interest among the viewership? Like LFL did to generate more hype for Qui Gon and Maul( >Yoda)? Like they did to claim that Dooku=Yoda? Only to turn that around and have Yoda's equal in Anakin beat him so easily. Is it possibly that the hype for Dooku was thrown to make room for Anakin and Sidious both of whom were not familiar quantities till then? Note that Lucas is going for the general audience. The casual fans of the movie. He absolutely does not make his movies or write novels that are meant to be hyper analyzed to the tune of "potentially actualized potential power" or "actualized yet inaccessible power" or any other shenanigans that we employ.

It might be. Very high probability that it is actually so. Hence, if this was 2004, Vader being sub TPM Obi Wan level makes much more sense and I would buy it.

Now, when you look at the post 2005 era and the fact that Vader is viewed to be an immensely powerful monster by virtually almost all sources that mention him( DLTRODV even mentions the opinion of Shryne that 19 BBY Vader>Grevious lmao), you might contemplate the reason as to the abrupt change in tune. But I am sure that it has nothing at all to the fact that the focus of the story has now been shifted to "Vader" and that the story requires him to be this "all powerful" Sith enforcer, hunting powerful force users in the galaxy. You even have Lucas stating that "Vader is now not like Sidious, he is like Dooku or Maul". Again, I can assure you that there is absolutely no way Lucas has thoughts about Vader being sub-TPM Obi Wan or Qui Gon, yet claiming that Vader is "like" Dooku or Maul. And no matter how many times we people twist and reinterpret the quote to fit with our view of the character to change power levels of the characters that he mentions there, the simple fact is that a simple statement like:

Vader is now not like Sidious, he is like Dooku or Maul


Means exactly that-Vader was like Sidious( level 9), now he is not, he is like Dooku or Maul( level 8). This again ties in to Lucas having changed his opinion on the Count. If the Count was a legit equal to Yoda then that statement becomes pointless because then he is "already like Palpatine". He can even now challenge Palpatine and maybe even win( especially so when you observe that Palpatine essentially lost the lightsaber contest in the movie) and this applies regardless of whether the quote talks about power or potential, hence I believe that the notion of the Count being relative to Yoda or the tier 9 combatants is pretty obviously wrong by the ROTS movie and movie


To such an extent that you even begin to entertain the notion that pre-OT Vader can be superior to the Count, when now you scoff on it pertaining to OT Vader. Honestly, IU, what can possibly change in the 2 or so years that warrants that level of change in power? Moreover, you really think that LFL has the opinion that "Yeah let's have those opinions on Vader being sub Qui Gon for OT Vader but obviously TFU Vader is infinitely better even though that happens only two years before the story of the OT"?

Can it not be, the most simple, obvious explanation that exactly like Ben, Qui Gon etc. Vader's power level has changed with time? That once the focus of the story shifts to him, rather than having new characters seem better "at his expense" for some time, that he is once again the monster that he was?

Again, the above is basically observations etc. than a proper case but I believe it has some merit

Absolutely brilliant post

[DarthAnt66Moderator]

@LOTL: I appreciate the post, but I think it is, in large part, addressing a belief I don't even have.

Lucas has never said nor indicated Qui-Gon is more powerful than Darth Vader.

He's never said it. I don't think he's said it. I've never argued that he's said it. I've repeatedly clarified that he's never said it. Etc.

Here is what he has said about Qui-Gon:

(1) He is a better lightsaber combatant.
(2) He is faster.
(3) He is more agile.
(4) He is a better pure duelist. 

That is what I believe for G-Canon. None of that is refuted by later sources--neither explicitly nor implicitly.

Then, as for this quote:

Vader is now not like Sidious, he is like Dooku or Maul

Means exactly that-Vader was like Sidious( level 9), now he is not, he is like Dooku or Maul( level 8). This again ties in to Lucas having changed his opinion on the Count. If the Count was a legit equal to Yoda then that statement becomes pointless because then he is "already like Palpatine". He can even now challenge Palpatine and maybe even win( especially so when you observe that Palpatine essentially lost the lightsaber contest in the movie) and this applies regardless of whether the quote talks about power or potential, hence I believe that the notion of the Count being relative to Yoda or the tier 9 combatants is pretty obviously wrong by the ROTS movie and movie

No, it doesn't mean exactly that. That's the issue. We used to take it to mean exactly that, then the Neo-Vader Brigade argued it's not in reference to Force power, and the anti-Vader Brigade later also argued it's not in reference to Force power. DarthSkwalker0 and I talked to a linguist about that statement because, if you recall, I used the quote to argue Vader is Maul/Dooku level in Super Fight III. Our findings were basically that the meaning of the quote is not apparent at all, hence why it is one of the few points across that debate I just outright dropped. However, if you were to somehow convince me the quote means applicable power and not the many other possible interpretations posed by others and the linguist, I'll happily raise Vader in power closer to Maul and perhaps even lower Dooku. 

Until then, I don't think the quote is usable and, like I said, Lucas has not commented on Vader's power position besides in relation to Anakin and Luke. Accordingly, my stance on Vader vs Jinn is rooted in C-Canon feats and quotes, such as the quote saying Jinn is more powerful than Vader. They have nothing to do with Lucas.

[Latham2000Level Three]

@LOTL: I appreciate the post, but I think it is, in large part, addressing a belief I don't even have.

Lucas has never said nor indicated Qui-Gon is more powerful than Darth Vader.

He's never said it. I don't think he's said it. I've never argued that he's said it. I've repeatedly clarified that he's never said it. Etc.

Here is what he has said about Qui-Gon:

(1) He is a better lightsaber combatant.
(2) He is faster.
(3) He is more agile.
(4) He is a better pure duelist. 

That is what I believe for G-Canon. None of that is refuted by later sources--neither explicitly nor implicitly.

Then, as for this quote:

Vader is now not like Sidious, he is like Dooku or Maul

Means exactly that-Vader was like Sidious( level 9), now he is not, he is like Dooku or Maul( level 8). This again ties in to Lucas having changed his opinion on the Count. If the Count was a legit equal to Yoda then that statement becomes pointless because then he is "already like Palpatine". He can even now challenge Palpatine and maybe even win( especially so when you observe that Palpatine essentially lost the lightsaber contest in the movie) and this applies regardless of whether the quote talks about power or potential, hence I believe that the notion of the Count being relative to Yoda or the tier 9 combatants is pretty obviously wrong by the ROTS movie and movie

No, it doesn't mean exactly that. That's the issue. We used to take it to mean exactly that, then the Neo-Vader Brigade argued it's not in reference to Force power, and the anti-Vader Brigade later also argued it's not in reference to Force power. DarthSkwalker0 and I talked to a linguist about that statement because, if you recall, I used the quote to argue Vader is Maul/Dooku level in Super Fight III. Our findings were basically that the meaning of the quote is not apparent of all, hence why it is one of the few points across that debate I just outright dropped. However, if you were to somehow convince me the quote means applicable power and not the many other possible interpretations posed by others and the linguist, I'll happily raise Vader in power closer to Maul and perhaps even lower Dooku. 

Until then, I don't think the quote is usable and, like I said, Lucas has not commented on Vader's power position besides in relation to Anakin and Luke. Accordingly, my stance on Vader is rooted in C-Canon statements and quotes, such as the quote saying Jinn is more powerful than Vader. They have nothing to do with Lucas.

Wtf? Erkan used to champion that intepretation in ancient times, nearly everyone, if not everyone, scolded and laughed at him him for intepretation, and now we're using that same intepretation, whilst still mocking erkan as if he's a blasphemer.

[DarthAnt66Moderator]

Not sure what you mean?

[AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four]

I'm still open to a debate with Exar Kun given my SS with DC77 is all but over.

[SithSauceLevel One]

@Darthant66 I'm curious to know why you think it's ambiguous if Lucas is referring to power or not when he says Vader was like Maul or Dooku while in the very same sentence he says "from then on Vader wasn't as strong as Sidious" (obviously referring to his inferiority to Sidious in terms of power). "But the son could become that". Meaning Luke could become what his father could not and be the most powerful Jedi. So its clear that power is a recurring theme in this topic about Vader. Even if you don't take this quote to mean he is Dooku level, I think at the very least proves he is above the likes of Qui Gon Jinn.
As for Dooku, I can't see why we should raise him tbh. According to Lucas Dooku can't compete with Sidious as of ROTS. And we know the quote isn't just referring to the Jedi who can compete with Sidious (Mace and Yoda) as it acknowledges that Vader could have beaten Palpatine if he hadn't have sustained all those injuries. This is also backed up by the tier system where Dooku is just an 8 and Mace,Yoda and Anakin are 9s. Unless you think the 2011 Blu ray statement about Dooku being Yoda's equal in the force is change of opinion from what he thought about Dooku in 2005?

[MPModerator | Champion of Darkness]

Resting the primary argument for Vader’s power on an ambiguous quote that even a linguist admitted can’t be interpreted solely one way just isn’t gonna cut it.

[Master AzrongerModerator]

@DarthAnt66 Who is this linguist who has lent you their services twice now (both in Super Fight II and III)?

[Latham2000Level Three]

Not sure what you mean?

I'm just saying that some of erkan's old views have aged a lot better than I thought they would.

[LOTL]

@Ziggy

I have interest in continuing our Modern Jedi vs Ancient Jedi arguments in a formal way here

I remember we used to argue on that in KMC but it was never complete

[IGLevel Four]

Anyone willing to reserve an SS with me? I’d be good with using Kyp Durron, Emperor’s Wrath II, or other characters, depending on who someone would want to use.

[MPModerator | Champion of Darkness]

Anyone up for something small? Wanna keep it strictly within deadlines though.

[xoltholLevel Five]

Anyone interrested in a SS with me using Mara Jade against someone like Savage Oppress?

[Jedi_Jesus]

Searching for someone willing to argue prime Ben Solo and Darth Tyranus, 
All out, Canon only
Mostly using this as a testing ground in formal debates for me, as well as hopefully raise Solo as a whole in the community

[DarthAnt66Moderator]

I'm interested in debating for Legends Dooku. Let me know if anyone's interested.

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