SS - Darth Plagueis (Meatpants) vs Galen Marek (ArkhamAsylum3)

Good. The hate is SWELLING in you.

Meatpants wrote:Good. The hate is SWELLING in you.

Not hate. More like disappointment as a fellow writer.

"Fellow writer". I'll have you know that I don't write fiction at all, and that piece was written in about 20 minutes. How does that make you feel?

Meatpants wrote:"Fellow writer". I'll have you know that I don't write fiction at all, and that piece was written in about 20 minutes. How does that make you feel?

Better considering the quality ( or lack thereof ) of your work.

As a writer, it's not a badly written piece at all. All I'll criticise about it is that it's very rushed (which makes sense considering the amount of time you spent on it). Not bad work for something you spent 20 minutes on.

@Meatpants For only 20 mins it is a pretty good work.

Here's some music to listen to for this post:



I will continue to link pieces of Requiems for my posts since they signify the death of all the misconceptions about Starkiller. This whole debate is a requiem to the old Starkiller, the Starkiller who has more raw power than Sidious, who can compete with the likes of Dooku or Windu, who can ragdoll Vader at will. These are all false, and this post will begin to unravel these misconceptions in depth. 

I. ALL HIS POWER IN THE FORCE

A common claim that is lauded continuously in defence of Galen Marek is his potential in the Force. The primary piece of evidence for this comes in the form of a quote from Insider #100 provided by Sam Witwer, the voice actor for Galen Marek. The actual authority Witwer has as an aside, the claims that he has the potential to be the most powerful Force user ever is explicitly contradicted in the continuity. Galen isn’t even close to the real top tier juggernauts of the Force: Anakin, Luke, Sidious, Plagueis etc., no matter how many voice actors say otherwise. In truth, Starkiller’s full potential in the Force is locked below Sidious’; nowhere near the potential of someone like Luke or Anakin Skywalker.

A. Sidious

There are two main facets that debunk the notion of Galen Marek’s Force potential being comparable to someone like Luke Skywalker, and both revolve around Sidious. The first is that Sidious never wanted a successor or an equal; the other being that Galen’s full potential in the Force wasn’t enough to seriously endanger the Emperor, and it was “no match” for Sidious’ power.

OMNIPOTENCE

According to Sidious Galen’s full potential is at least comparable to his own, he stated Galen could have been his “successor,” his “equal.”

There are numerous sources - some OOU and some from Sidious’ very own perspective - that make it very clear that Sidious intended to be the sole ruler of the galaxy/universe for eternity, even associating himself literally with the void of space in the RotJ novel (Link). George Lucas, who’s authority provides an inescapable foundation as per the debate rules stated: “which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe.” (Link) Thus, Sidious wanted a partner that he could control in some way, but he’d always be the puppet master. The above-cited sources demonstrate that Sidious never wanted a successor to his power, or an “equal”, only a tool to do his dirty work. All of these sources strip away any validity to what Sidious tells Galen Marek; likely it was a way to fuel his new tool’s rage, or play with his mind or both. Either way, numerous sources from Sidious’ own musings and OOU all show that he didn’t desire/need a successor, and all these sources including Lucas himself all outweigh any authority you can glean from Sidious (the famous manipulator) telling a broken Starkiller about how he could have been an equal or successor. 

NO MATCH FOR SIDIOUS

In case you’re planning to rebut with “but Lucas said Sidious wanted someone more powerful than himself to help him”, consider that Lucas is likely referring to people like Maul and Anakin, who have potentials beyond Sidious’ own, unlike Starkiller. This is true given the fact that at the end of TFU Galen “manifests his true potential by unleashing the Force.”, whilst physically linked to Sidious (Link). The Emperor was in the virtual epicentre of the blast radius and was not affected by the full potency of Galen’s potential. All the cells in his body went into shock, "He felt ripped apart by the energy that had flowed through him. Every cell was in shock; every fiber shook." Finally, it’s stated that “He was no match for Palpatine...” (Link). So what we have for Galen’s potential being comparable to that of Sidious or Luke is:

1. The testimony of Galen's voice actor, who also says that in TFUIII Vader would have dominated Starkiller;
2. What Sidious tells Starkiller, which doesn't have to be truthful.

That’s about it, really. We have G-canon, OOU statements and Sidious’ own inner monologue all confirming that Sidious never wanted/desired a successor or equal to his power, only a puppet he could manipulate, meaning he was lying to Starkiller for whatever reason. Finally, and perhaps the most decisively, Sidious tanked the blast of Galen’s full potential at its epicentre, and escaped unharmed, with no serious damage. His full potential is stated in various sources to be “no match” for Sidious’ powers, meaning Galen’s potential doesn’t even rival Sidious’.

B. Natural Gifts and Conditioning

EARLY SUIT VADER

Since author/voice actor quotes are perfectly acceptable for you, let’s consider developer statements regarding Vader during the first mission of the game.



A few years after ROTS, Vader is “well above” Galen in power as we see him at the start of the game. This is around when Vader got his suit, invalidating about half of your post that you used to wank Galen’s training during well over a decade. In other words: you were waffling and trying to wank start of game Galen who is actually - according to your criteria of using outside authorities - still well inferior to early suit Vader.

STARKILLER VS VADER

You argue here that Galen broke his conditioning on Raxus Prime:

Then, finally, we have Raxus Prime. As I mentioned before, Galen clearly doesn’t break Vader’s hold over him till Raxus Prime, as he notes even by this point in the story that the idea he could ever rival Vader is “preposterous.” Yet, when he pulls down a Star Destroyer he clearly changes, his mindset, questioning whether even Vader could perform such a titanic Force feat, attempting to call on Galen for strength and finally accepting afterwards he’s “stronger than Darth Vader.” The fact that this was the pivotal moment where he broke his mental conditioning is reinforced later when he forms his own ideas for the Rebellion, and on the Death Star when he states that he “possessed the strength to do what he needed to do. He always had,” and that he can channel it via drawing on his love for Juno: “It was Galen as much as Darth Vader's apprentice who had invoked the thought of Juno to make him strong.”

Galen is free of his master’s conditioning on Raxus Prime, and thus also in his confrontation with Vader. Despite this and a further boost in power during the duel, he still isn’t more powerful than Vader. At the onset, the duel is relatively even, “Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defences… The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defences, testing them to their limits.” Both men are struggling to gain an advantage over the other. Though after enlightenment, Galen gains an advantage in the lightsaber duel, penetrating Vader’s defences. He then proceeds to telekinetically ragdoll Vader:

TFU Novelisation wrote:Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the apprentice, however, was gone. His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the apprentice's father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but the battery continued until, with a crash, the apprentice ripped the energy field generator in the center of the room right out of the floor and hurled it at his former Master.

So does this prove that Galen is more powerful than Vader to the point where he can outright ragdoll his former master? Not at all. Note first that Galen Marek is a TK savant, and his prodigious abilities in this area are disproportionate to his actual power level (Link). His telekinetic feats are not indicative of his actual power - they’re stronger. Furthermore, Vader’s dueling skills are severely inferior to his power (Link), making his loss against Starkiller in a duel irrelevant to the topic of power. Thus, the power disparity between Vader and Galen is vague and unquantifiable; since Starkiller’s TK is disproportionate to his actual power level, which would explain away why he was able to ragdoll Vader via TK without deferring to Starkiller simply being more powerful. 

In TFU 2 Starkiller’s clone is more powerful and knows more Force abilities than TFU1 Starkiller whilst also retaining the original's fighting skills, yet is incapable of defeating Vader via sabers or power in the Force until he takes advantage of a wound inflicted by Juno on Vader’s chest panel (Link). Until that point, Galen was unable to gain an edge against Vader, and admits he the best he could do is create a stalemate, "Blow after blow rained on him, forcing him back. There had to be a way to free himself and avenge Juno at the same time... but a stalemate seemed unavoidable."

C. Darth Vader

VADER SCALING DEBUNKED

None would be trained sufficiently to be a threat to Darth Bane's insistence that there only be two Sith, nor would they be a threat to Darth Sidious or his apprentice Darth Vader. The most powerful of these agents were 'only' Sith adepts but would appear to be almost as dark Jedi - the likes of Asajj Ventress, Mara Jade or Inquisitor Valin (in fact a fallen Jedi). The lesser agents were reduced to still-deadly faceless minions. Amongst their ranks were the Shadow Guard.

This quote is merely relaying that Sidious didn’t intend for the Dark Side adepts to become a threat to his Rule of Two, hence why their training was limited. This is not mutually exclusive with them actually becoming a threat, thus rendering the rest of your Vader scaling completely moot. You’ve yet to prove why scaling off Vader is relevant against someone like Plagueis in the first place.

THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK

On the other hand, Vader does grow significantly from TFU. From ANH to ESB alone, there is a marked improvement:

Insider #62 wrote:Within the armed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.

He has “greater mastery over himself and over the Force” since ANH, has “largely freed himself of pain through the Force” and “advanced his lightsaber technique”, thus making him “a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.” He’s also freed himself from the limitations of his suit (S&V#8). So, overall, his combative deadliness and power in the Force have increased dramatically since his fights with Galen Marek. This is the Vader that Luke Skywalker in ESB faces off against, and he does extremely well considering his extreme deficit in training and experience.

Fightsaber wrote:In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself to be an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers. It is only Darth Vader’s much greater experience that gives the Dark Lord the dominant edge in the battle.

So, Luke holds his own against Vader at the height of his powers, in a state “far more formidable” in combat than what Galen Marek faced - all with a bare minimum of training. Vader even tells Luke that he was performing better than Ben Kenobi on the Death Star, “You have been learning, you’re young and quick, you offer me better sport than the old man.” (ESB:RD). The duel was “long and trying” for both combatants, and Luke was constantly improving as the duel progressed (Link). Lucas describes it as a “slightly one-sided sword fight” (Link), and “It is only Vader’s much greater experience that gives the Dark Lord the dominant edge in the battle.” (Insider #62)

RETURN OF THE JEDI

During his final confrontation with Vader, Luke was his father's equal as a duelist and as a Force user (Link), despite Vader exhibiting "more deadly invincibility than ever" [1] and "brings his full strength and power" against his son [2]. To put this into perspective, Luke with 4 years of training, most of it concentrated within one session with Ben, some time with Yoda on Dagobah and the rest self-taught is the combat equal of a Vader “far more formidable” than TFU Vader, the same Vader Starkiller cannot overcome in TFU2 by normal means (taking advantage of an opening in his chest panel made by Juno during her surprise attack).

DARK EMPIRE

^ timestamped

A mere six years after the events of ROTJ, Luke Skywalker defeated Darth Sidious in a lightsaber duel, being “too strong” for him (note that Luke isn't stronger than Sidious in overall power) (Link). Compare this with Sidious’ casual ragdoll of “enlightened” Starkiller in the Dark Side ending for TFU1:



Starkiller has had a decade and a half of ruthless training under Darth Vader, only to be completely ripped apart and casually ragdolled by Sidious. Conversely, Luke with ten years of training, most of it self taught had become stronger than Sidious. The disparity in potential and growth is clear.

II. PLAGUEIS AND SIDIOUS

A. Fear

Let's break this rather shoddy rebuttal piece by piece. 

As can be seen by the above quotes, Sidious’s fear of Plagueis is largely based on the fact that Plagueis potentially could have become immortal

Are you so sure? Merely two years before TPM, Sidious described Plagueis as such: 

Darth Plagueis wrote:Seen through the Force, he was a nuclear oval of mottled light, a rotating orb of terrifying energy. If the Maladian attack had weakened him physically, it had also helped to shape his etheric body into a vessel sufficiently strong to contain the full power of the dark side. Determined never again to be caught off guard, he had trained himself to go without sleep, and had devoted two standard decades to day-and-night experimentation with midi-chlorian manipulation and attempts to wrest a few last secrets from the Force, so that he—and presumably his human apprentice—might live forever. His inward turn had enabled him to master the equally powerful energies of order and disorder, creation and entropy, life and death.

This is Sidious sensing Plagueis through the Force, describing him as emitting "terrifying energy" and his body could contain "the full power of the dark side" in Sidious' eyes. Circa TPM, Sidious even describes Plagueis as "seemingly omnipotent" and feels envy that Plagueis could possibly have known about Veruna's attack on Sojourn. The difference in tune when Sidious assassinates Plagueis - his egotistical speech - isn't necessarily indicative of Sidious' true feelings.

Furthermore, since you deem voice actor's quotes as an acceptable authority in continuity, I don't see any reason why Luceno's opinions about the outcome of a duel between Sidious and Plagueis can't be used as well:

James Luceno, Facebook Q&A wrote:Q: Do you feel that, had it come to a contest of lightsabers or Force powers, Sidious would have prevailed anyway?

A: If it had come to a duel, I think Plagueis may have found a way to undermine his apprentice.

So Luceno clearly thinks Plagueis had a shot taking Sidious down combatively. But what's more to the point, the idea that Plagueis being immortal was the only concern of Sidious' is more speculative and less based on the facts than my stance. Sidious doesn't seem incredulous at all over the prospect of Plagueis causing the tremor that "shook the stars themselves"; he regards Plagueis as insanely powerful. Plagueis' survival as an immortal entity isn't a possibility that arouses feelings of indifference or amusement in Sidious, but abject fear. Consider that even though he feared Ventress in the Clone Wars and saw her as a threat to his power, that doesn't mean he wouldn't be wary of engaging her. Case and point: he engaged Sidious and Savage, stated threats to the Rule of Two and engaged them in a lightsaber duel. And even though he knew after the fact that Ventress and Maul weren't dead, he was dismissive because they posed no threat to his plans. In other words, this is a singular case where he not only considers a being a threat to his person, he's also in abject fear of that being, even after being boosted in power. Even if Plagueis was unkillable, there's no reason Sidious couldn't capture and imprison Plagueis. If he was significantly more powerful than Plagueis, he wouldn't be so out of character with abject fear and concern for his own personal safety. Touching briefly on the quote you mentioned:

Darth Plagueis wrote:Sidious knew that his own powers had increased tenfold over the decades, but he couldn’t be certain he had learned all of Plagueis’s secrets—“his sorcerer’s ways,” as the Sun Guards referred to them—including the ability to prevent beings from dying. He sometimes wondered: Was he a level behind? Two levels behind?

This is irrelevant to cite because Sidious as of his attempt on Plagueis had learnt exactly how to do that:

Darth Plagueis wrote:I could save you, of course. Return you from the brink, as you did Venamis. I could retask your body to repair the damage already done to your lungs, your hearts, your aged brain. But I'll do no such thing. The idea here is not to drag you back at the last moment, but to bring you to death's door and shove you through to the other side.

The idea that Sidious learnt his master's secrets is corroborated extensively in the lore (Link). Although it's safe to say Sidious didn't literally know everything, he knew most of it. 

So, since you conceded indirectly that author quotes are valid, Luceno doesn't see anything wrong with Plagueis winning a combat against Sidious This, combined with Sidious uncharacteristic abject fear of Plagueis' power after his own boost in power corroborates the point that Plagueis was comparable in power to TPM Sidious.

B. Potential

Quote 1: Self-explanatory. It notes Sidious “bides his time” and only “as his strength grows” do “his planes begin to shape the course of the galaxy” i.e. Sidious is biding his time and gathering strength before he initiates his plans. Why would Sidious bide his time in order to gather strength if he’s only going to use that power in extreme moments given that it will damage his body, and it isn’t even necessary for his plans?

You’re conflating growth in power with applicable power. Sidious can still become stronger whilst also being limited by his body, they’re not mutually exclusive. Even then, the quote is likely referring to political power, rather than power in the Force. It never says that Sidious bides his time so that he can become powerful enough to enact his plans, only that his plans and strength are growing simultaneously.

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Quote 2 and 3: Sidious was the source of the Dark Side shroud meaning the Dark Side increasing denotes a power increase for him as well.

How is Sidious’ growth in the Force mutually exclusive with him only being able to use as much as his body can handle without deforming and aging him? He can still become more powerful, that doesn’t change his limit, which is his body.

And given that it’s actively affecting the Jedi’s ability to see the future it’s clearly combat applicable and not just power locked inside Sidious. Furthermore, Yoda even thinks it’s logical the Sith increased based on his fight with Sidious indicating Sidious’s growth quotes do refer to combat applicable power.

Expanding on what I’ve said above, Sidious’ power increase is not mutually exclusive with limits on how much of that power he can use. It doesn’t matter how much he has in the tank, he can only drain so much of it at once without deteriorating his body. There’s no evidence to substantiate the dark side cloud being representative of his combat applicable power. Considering that during the Clone Wars he had to use a ritual repeatedly in order to maintain his appearance as Palpatine, it makes sense to conclude that the more powerful he became in sync with the dark side cloud becoming denser only made the need for his body to revitalised more apparent as time went on. Again, we come full circle to the point that Sidious’ growing power is not mutually exclusive with him being able to funnel all of that without damaging his body instantaneously, though the presence of that power destroys his body slowly nonetheless, hence the ritual and the increasing strain on Palpatine's Face as the Clone Wars progressed; it was getting harder and harder to maintain the mask as he grew in power (Link).

As an aside, Sidious did, in fact, draw beyond his body against Yoda:

Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader wrote:Palpatine wore a voluminous embroidered robe of rich weave, the cowl of which was raised, concealing in shadow the scars he had suffered at the hands of the four treasonous Jedi Masters who had attempted to arrest him in his chambers in the Senate Office Building, as well as other deformations resulting from his fierce battle with Master Yoda in the Rotunda of the Senate itself.

Rendering your point obsolete anyway.

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As for Sidious hitting his full potential, the quote saying he hit it as of TPM obviously isn’t literal. Filled to bursting is one of the most commonly used phrases in the English language (examples provided below), and I’ve never once seen it used literally.
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In fact, it doesn’t really make sense Sidious hit his full potential/was about to burst apart in that passage given that the passage itself makes note of that for a single sentence. Surely if he did hit his full potential it would be more emphasised?

The sensation and direct correlation to hitting a limit in the body is echoed across numerous sources, including with Starkiller himself! When he enters oneness during TFU, he “felt ripped apart by the energy that had flowed through him.” And unleashed all the power of the Force in him, putting his cells into shock. Luke in Dark Nest feels the same sensation of being ripped apart when he focused too much power for his body to endure, and even looks like Sidious after the feat - Mara Jade notes that this is what happened to Sidious; the strain of using too much power than the body could handle aged and deformed it. In Plagueis, Sidious is said to be a “vessel full to bursting” after he gains an influx of power, matching the other descriptions. Regardless, the term “full to bursting”, even if hyperbole still means something is full or close to full, so your argument becomes moot.

III. MIDICHLORIAN MANIPULATION

A. Starkiller's Inconsistencies

Starkiller has shown to neglect his own defences in battle; although he is generally more powerful than his opponents, he fails to adequately defend himself, thus resulting in combatants like Rahm Kota (1), Shaak Ti (2)(3), and a shadow guard (4) being able to penetrate his Force wall, even though he proved to be the overall superior combatant. And of course against Darth Vader himself (5) and:












In other words, he lacks self-mastery and discipline in combat, choosing rather to rely on his raw power to see him through. This is problematic against a masterful opponent like Plagueis, especially when said opponent not only has superior Force knowledge and abilities at his disposal, but an ability that needs only a small gap in SK’s defence to enact.

B. Mastery over Life and Death

Plagueis wrote:The Jedi routinely performed blood tests to verify the midi-chlorian counts of prospective trainees, but Plagueis had passed beyond the need for such crude measurements. He could not only sense the strength of the Force in another but also perceive the midi-chlorians that individualized Forceful beings. It was that dark side ability that had allowed generations of Sith to locate and initiate recruits. The dispersal of midi-chlorians at the moment of physical death was, for lack of a better term, inexorable. Analogous to his fated confrontation with the Woebegone crew, the moment of death appeared to be somehow fixed in space and time. According to his Sith education, since Captain Lah and the others had been in some sense dead from the moment Plagueis's gaze had alighted on the freighter, it followed that the midi-chlorians that resided in alleged symbiosis with them must have been preparing to be subsumed into the reservoir of life energy that was the Force long before Plagueis had stowed away. His attempts to save them-to prolong that state of symbiosis-were comparable to using a sponge to dam a raging river.

The Banite Sith before Plagueis theorised correctly that the midichlorians follow the will of the Force, which dictated the fixed point in space and time when someone died, and that the midichlorians were aware of this and prepared for such an event to leave their host when they died. Plagueis describes this phenomenon as seemingly “inexorable”, and attempting to prevent this in any way - to go against the will of the Force - was “comparable to using a sponge to dam a raging river.” Now, in midichlorian manipulation, it is far more difficult to manipulate one’s own midichlorians than that of others. So when Plagueis heals himself via MM (foregoing a defensive Force barrier) whilst Sidious is drawing on his power like he never had before in his life, Plagueis was executing the hardest possible variation of MM: healing oneself. To tie this off, Plagueis notes that killing someone via manipulation of their midichlorians is even easier than healing someone else, thus creating a scale of difficulty: healing yourself > healing others > killing others. Expanding on this last point, the act of killing someone via MM is the easiest variation of the technique, and it stands to reason that if Plagueis can execute the hardest variation of healing himself to the point where Sidious can’t harm him, it stands to reason that his deadliness in a far more easier application would be many times as efficient.

“Let me explain what is happening to you,” Plagueis said. “The cells that make up all living things contain within them organelles known as midi-chlorians. They are, in addition to being the basis for life, the elements that enable beings like me to perceive and use the Force. As the result of a lifetime of study, I have learned how to manipulate midi-chlorians, and I have instructed the limited number you possess to return to their source. In plain Basic, Veruna, I am killing you.”

Veruna’s face was losing color, and his breathing had slowed. “Bring … me back. I can still be … of service … to you …”

“But you are, Your Majesty. A celebrated ancient poet once said that every death lessened him, for he considered himself to be a brother to every living being. I, on the other hand, have come to understand that every death I oversee nourishes and empowers me, for I am a true Sith.”

“No … better than … an Anzati.”

“The brain eaters? What does better than mean to those of us who have passed beyond notions of good and evil? Are you better than Bon Tapalo? Are you better than Queen Padmé Amidala? I am the only one fit to answer the question. Better are those who do my bidding.” Plagueis placed his hand atop Veruna’s. “I’ll remain with you for a while as you meld with the Force. But at some point, I will have to leave you at the threshold to continue on your own.”

In applying the easiest variation of the technique against Veruna, he explains that he instructed  the midichlorians to return to the Force (leave his body); note that this is in past tense, Plagueis simply makes a command and the midichlorians follow that command without extra interference - this is reinforced when Plagueis explains he’d leave Veruna and let the process slowly kill him. There’s additionally no reason to believe Plagueis couldn’t accelerate this process should he so choose, considering that he can cause his own midichlorians to regenerate faster than Sidious’ lightning destroys them, and this demonstration is far more difficult than the act of causing another’s midichlorians to leave their body. So it stands to reason that Plagueis can actually kill with MM faster than Sidious could kill someone with his lightning.

Of course, there is no evidence to suggest that Plagueis can just do this against anyone at any time, this would be a no-limits fallacy. But in offering an explanation to how this is combatively applicable, we must remember that midichlorians are still physical organelles that reside within cells; so it stands to reason that influencing a physical aspect of a Force user’s body would require a break in their Force defenses/barriers to allow Plagueis to execute the command for the midichlorians to return to the Force (leave their host’s body).

Starkiller is by no means on the same level of combative mastery as Plagueis, or anyone else comparable to him, like Yoda, Sidious - or even lesser combatants like Mace Windu or Dooku. Plagueis is a tier 9, he is comparable in power to TPM Sidious, who’s combatively applicable power remains the same all the way through to Dark Empire. Someone who was getting their Force barrier misplaced and taken advantage of by a shadow guard despite being way more powerful isn’t going to put up the same sort of continuous barrier in battle someone like Yoda or Sidious would. Thus, if Starkiller slips up even once in his defence, Plagueis can instruct his midichlorians to die off. Of course, this is assuming Starkiller wouldn’t be straight up ragdolled, which he would.

IV. Conclusion

This has been a reply to a very lacklustre, lazy and meme-tier post. Let's sum up the main points:

1. Starkiller's potential in the Force failed to have an impact on Sidious when it was unleashed at point-blank range. 
2. Sidious didn't want a successor per Lucas himself, and a variety of sources attest to Sidious' ultimate goal being sole ruler of the galaxy. If he had any help, they were his puppets, nothing less.
3. Starkiller at the start of TFU is considerably weaker as a combatant to Vader a few years after the events of ROTS.
4. The fights between Starkiller and Vader in TFU 1 & 2 only indicate that SK is somewhat more powerful/combatively deadly than Vader. It's largely unquantifiable.
5. Sidious seeking for his Dark Jedi to be trained as to not be a threat to the Rule of Two is not mutually exclusive with those Dark Jedi becoming a threat. Thus Ventress can't be locked under Vader as not a threat to him in any capacity.
6. Luke's growth in the Force is exponentially more pronounced than Starkiller's, really nipping in the bud the idea that Starkiller could be like Luke, or is comparable to Luke in Force potential.
7. Sidious' fear of Plagueis returning is indicative of comparable power. Sidious is uncharacteristically both fearful and concerned by his personal safety; compared to say Ventress or Maul who he viewed as threats but casually dismissed them/wasn't concerned about them threatening his personal safety. Not to mention that, as you've created the precedent for using outside authorities, Luceno believes Plagueis had a chance against Sidious in a battle, again indicating comparable power.
8. Sidious reached his potential in the Force as of TPM. The sensation he felt and its correlation with having more power than the body's midichlorians can handle is corroborated and aggregated over several sources. Taking one of those and pretending it's in a vacuum is not a good rebuttal. Furthermore, you failed to address my points about Sidious' deterioration and how he drew beyond his body during his duel with Mace Windu. So that remains to be mentioned by you. 
9. Starkiller is an undisciplined fighter, and his Force wall gets broken through by opponents that shouldn't really be doing that. This indicates a lack of mastery that Plagueis clearly has. 
10. Plagueis can easily kill someone by instructing their midichlorians to return to their source code, all he needs is an opening, and Starkiller per the numerous examples of his fights is more than likely to give Plagueis one. Of course, we surmised earlier that Sidious in TPM is just as powerful in terms of what power he can use without going beyond his body in TPM as he was in TFU. And since Plagueis is comparable, he too is well beyond Starkiller's league and likely ragdolls as Sidious does in the dark side ending of the first game.

@Word_Salad 

I’m offering you the chance to concede. If you concede now, you won’t have to get embarrassed when the judges destroy your half-assed post that you know you half-assed. I think you know that you know SK loses. Take the loss now instead of digging the hole further. You’re already cornered.

Good rebuttals on Plagueis. Your points on TFU are a mixed bag though.

It was nice.

Really good post, I agree with most of it, especially the SK parts.

Yeah, the TFU rebuttals were especially solid. Starkiller's days appear to be numbered.

Great post.

Glad I'm not the only one trying to debunk the "Galen >>> Vader" nonsense. Great post.

@Meatpants Really solid post!

[size=30]1) Introduction[/size]

First and foremost, I’d like to congratulate MP on his excellent reply, as it has motivated me to try considerably harder on my next post in order to exceed his quality. I think it’s time I actually made a decent contribution to this debate rather than writing out half-assed intros last second after sitting on my ass doing nothing for months, and thus I have started writing this post almost immediately, though whether I will maintain my current level of energy is something I’ll find out in the long run. Anyway, this post will seek to draw a more in-depth comparison between Plagueis and Starkiller - taking into account all elements. This post will be a combination of:

A) Refuting MP’s arguments for Plagueis, and against my opener for Starkiller.

B) Making new arguments for Starkiller - specifically regarding his saber skills, and his TFU 2 power level.

With that out of the way, let’s begin.

[size=30]2) Performance against Sidious[/size]

I originally didn’t want to use this argument, so I could see what I could do with Galen’s other feats, but because of the half a dozen comparisons you drew between Galen and Sidious in your post, I unfortunately have no choice. 

Anyway, at the end of The Force Unleashed, Galen performs quite possibly his best feat, defending against Sidious’s Lightning for 20-30 seconds - depending on which version of the game you use. The feat as shown in the game is already impressive, but the novel tells us more:

Without hesitation, he stepped between Kota and the Emperor, taking the full brunt of the Sith lightning into his own body.
The pain was incredible, searing every nerve back to its individual cells, skewering each of them on white-hot needles. He had never before felt anything like this. He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a step toward the Emperor.
"Go!" he hissed at Kota. "Hurry!"
The general hesitated only for a moment. He, too, had seen a glimpse of the future, the apprentice remembered. He knew that it came down to a simple choice: him and the Rebels or the apprentice and darkness forever. Gathering up the Rebels, Kola ushered them toward the descending ship.
Another staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice's reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain. Darkness threatened to envelop the apprentice's mind, but he clutched to consciousness with feverish will. He had to see this through. He had to.
Source: The Force Unleashed Novelization
From the passage in the novelization, I made two key observations:

1. Sidious was placed into a state of “desperation” by Galen advancing on him, which he is actively noted to be “fuelling” his lightning with. This not only shows Sidious was clearly going all out, but also displays how Galen put Sidious into a state where he lost hope in his own victory, clearly highlighting Galen’s display as incredibly impressive. Moreover, if we’re going to perform insane over analysis - which you have no right to berate me for given that your opener was essentially comprised of hyper-analysing obviously non-literal statements - we can look at the CollinsDictionary definition of the word “desperation”:

Desperation is the feeling that you have when you are in such a bad situation that you will try anything to change it. 

Source: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/desperation

What would “anything” include? Hmmm let me think. Surely not drawing on power beyond his biological Force potential (if I’m to accept your opening argument as legitimate)? So, we’ve essentially got Galen defending against energies massively more potent than those Plagueis can unleash - even if I agree Sidious’s biological Force Potential is capped - and you think he has a shot against Galen? That’s some suspect insight.

2. The Lightning Sidious was unleashing against Galen was potent enough to breach his own Force Barrier and cause him pain, obviously indicating it was his maximum output which reinforces point 1.

This point is relevant to previous arguments - it will definitely assist with my rebuttals to you - but also serves as a good indicator of Galen’s power by itself. 

Furthermore, given that you believe Galen’s base power is potentially leagues below his TK - you seem to think it’s totally plausible Vader rivals SK in base power yet his TK can literally ragdoll him - I’d say you’d totally agree to the premise that SK can massively outdo the power needed to perform this feat with his Telekinesis, meaning if SK blasts Plagueis with TK, I see no reason why he won’t be pulverized like the Starkiller clones or atomised like The Salvation.

[size=30]3) Galen’s Potential[/size]

A) Sidious

MP repeatedly throughout his post put shade on Witwer’s credibility throughout his post, without actually going into any detail on why Witwer is an unreliable source. There are 2 reasons why Witwer’s statements have merit:

1) They demonstrate a clear narrative intent that the game/novels were written with.

2) His statements are published in an official SW magazine meaning they’re accepted into the continuity.

Due to premise 1, any perceived inconsistencies between Witwer’s statements and the primary material are probably just that, perceptions. Absolutely nothing MP has posted regarding Galen’s potential as a shred of credibility, because he’s making arguments against what the creators have outlined. Now, onto specific rebuttals regarding the Oneness blast feat:

This is true given the fact that at the end of TFU Galen “manifests his true potential by unleashing the Force.”, whilst physically linked to Sidious (Link). 

This is a lol-worthy interpretation, absolutely nowhere does the quote even mention Galen’s Oneness blast. The full context is provided below:

(The roleplaying game statistics below represent Vader's protégé fairly early in his apprenticeship, before he manifests his true potential by unleashing the Force.)

The quote is attempting to provide a timeframe for the segment of the game it’s referring to Galen in, which means it can’t possibly be referring to the time where Galen died lmao. Your interpretation of the quote is literally:

“These stats represent Galen fairly on in his apprenticeship, before he died.”

The second part is totally irrelevant - a no-brainer- and doesn’t help elaborate on the first point. The more realistic, non-hyper literal interpretation - where we don’t conclude “true potential” is literally referring to his full Force Potential - is that it’s referring to Galen’s development throughout the novel (outlined in my first post) wherein he finally unleashes his raw power, hence the terminology “true potential.” That’s a much more plausible interpretation, and helps to back up the prior statement from the quote. As an aside - to back up my previous point - this statement is not dissimilar to quotes on Vaylin’s growth, when Vitiate was locked away on Yavin IV:

When most of the Emperor's power was locked away on Yavin 4, he was no longer able to hide Vaylin's strength from her, and she finally got a taste of her full capabilities.

Vaylin was obviously nowhere close to her “full capabilities” as of the start of KOTFE - she grows consistently throughout it and KOTET. You wouldn’t apply this standard to Vaylin (given that it’s totally wrong), so why should you apply this standard to Starkiller?

The Emperor was in the virtual epicentre of the blast radius and was not affected by the full potency of Galen’s potential. 

Right, but he tanked the barest fraction of the blasts power given that it was omni-directional. Moreover, given that Sheev was in “desperation” just prior, and Marek has just become considerably more powerful, I’d say it’s totally not unreasonable to assume that Sheev drew beyond his biological Force Potential if I accept your stance on that - which I’m not saying that I am, it’s just an aside. Finally, Sidious was actually affected by Galen’s Oneness blast, we can see he’s visibly burnt in the comic.

All the cells in his body went into shock, "He felt ripped apart by the energy that had flowed through him. Every cell was in shock; every fiber shook." 

This doesn’t indicate he hit his full potential, he’d just received a massive influx of power, of course it sent his cells into shock.

Finally, it’s stated that “He was no match for Palpatine...” (Link).

Why are we assuming that these candy bar quotes refer to Oneness Marek, and not base Marek? 

So what we have for Galen’s potential being comparable to that of Sidious or Luke is:

1. The testimony of Galen's voice actor, who also says that in TFUIII Vader would have dominated Starkiller;

There’s a fundamental difference between unpublished/unofficial quotes from Witwer on a game that was never released, and published/official quotes from Witwer clarifying the intent of material that was released.

(Insert rebuttals to Sidious’s POV)

To summarise this whole section:

-Galen wasn’t in his full potential when entering Oneness.

-Sidious took the barest fraction of Oneness Galen’s power.

-Galen’s Oneness blast did damage Sidious as can be seen in the comic.

-There’s no reason to doubt the authenticity of Witwer’s statements, they reflect a clear narrative intent and are accepted into continuity.

B) Early Novel Galen vs Vader

Since author/voice actor quotes are perfectly acceptable for you, let’s consider developer statements regarding Vader during the first mission of the game. 

A few years after ROTS, Vader is “well above” Galen in power as we see him at the start of the game. This is around when Vader got his suit, invalidating about half of your post that you used to wank Galen’s training during well over a decade. In other words: you were waffling and trying to wank start of game Galen who is actually - according to your criteria of using outside authorities - still well inferior to early suit Vader. 

Did you miss the part where I basically admitted Galen’s applicable power is shit? The point wasn’t to hype up Early-Game Galen who lacks any control of his powers, but rather to hype up End-Game Galen who finally gains control of the power he’s built up over 15 years of rigorous training. Despite constantly mocking my first post on Discord you seem to have missed a few key details. 

C) Galen vs Luke: Vader Comparisons

You argue here that Galen broke his conditioning on Raxus Prime: 

Galen is free of his master’s conditioning on Raxus Prime, and thus also in his confrontation with Vader. Despite this and a further boost in power during the duel, he still isn’t more powerful than Vader. At the onset, the duel is relatively even, “Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defences… The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defences, testing them to their limits.” Both men are struggling to gain an advantage over the other. 

It’s amusing to see how you blatantly omitted the whole passage in favour of a single citation to favour Vader. The rest of the passage clarifies the context which allowed Vader to compete, that being that Galen doesn’t understand how to kill without drawing on his rage/desire for revenge which he’s explicitly resisting in this instance, ergo he’s not fighting at his best - when he does he dominates Vader - so trying to dismiss his insane potential based on comparisons to Luke in ESB, is completely and totally pointless.

The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its call, seeking a better way to finish the job.

Source: The Force Unleashed Novelization

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Glancing over Darth Vader's shoulder, he saw the Emperor watching the duel, his face screwed up in malevolent delight. And the apprentice understood. A better way to kill. . .
Not out of hatred. Whatever lay beneath that black mask, it wasn't beauty or happiness. Only ugliness and pain would hide itself away for so long. Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader.
Source: The Force Unleashed Novelization

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To add to the above, Vader and Galen don’t even fight equally, Galen is notably faster and more skilled, he tests Vader’s defences to their limits, while blocking Vader’s attacks with “elegant precision” and nearly kills Vader in the opening exchange of their duel. Vader being able to kill him if given an opening doesn’t illustrate he’s comparable, just that he’s a good fighter, which isn’t in dispute.

In TFU 2 Starkiller’s clone is more powerful and knows more Force abilities than TFU1 Starkiller whilst also retaining the original's fighting skills, yet is incapable of defeating Vader via sabers or power in the Force until he takes advantage of a wound inflicted by Juno on Vader’s chest panel (Link). Until that point, Galen was unable to gain an edge against Vader, and admits he the best he could do is create a stalemate, "Blow after blow rained on him, forcing him back. There had to be a way to free himself and avenge Juno at the same time... but a stalemate seemed unavoidable."

What is the point in writing this shit when you know I’m just going to cite the exhaustion argument? You could have at least written out a pre-emptive counter lol. Anyway, yeah, citing this fight is useless because Starkiller was exhausted when he fought Vader, at peak he’d decimate him (this will be elaborated on in the final segment of my post regarding Galen’s TFU 2 feats). Then there’s also the matter of Vader specifically gearing his fighting style to defending against Starkiller:

Vader himself fought more cautiously than he had on the Death Star, the last time they had dueled in earnest. His armor seemed to have improved, too; it was less vulnerable to lightning than it had been just days before.

Source: The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

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Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now.

Source: The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

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Even discounting the circumstances, your claim that Vader stonewalled Starkiller is still emphatically false, Galen hits Vader with Force Lightning earlier in the duel and would have struck him down if not for a timely vision of Juno’s death:

But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

Juno lying limp in his arms.

The vision struck him as powerfully as a physical blow. When he tried to push it aside, it returned with even more power.

Juno-dead.

He reeled in shock. Was this what would happen if he killed Vader? He had no choice but to believe so. But if he didn't kill Vader, how would he ever get to her?

The Dark Lord took advantage of his momentary confusion. He delivered a telekinetic shove that threw Starkiller backward off the platform and down to the lower levels of the ruined cloning tower. The blow and the fall had the welcome effect of clearing his mind. He turned in midair and landed on his feet. An instant later he was leaping upward again, his face a mask of determination.

Source: The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

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Also, given that you love other mediums, and consistently deferred to sources which contradict the novelization in your post, I’d like to point out that in virtually every depiction of the fight sans the Wii version of the game and the novelization Starkiller legitimately overpowers Vader in the final section of the fight: in the XBOX version of the game he blasts him into submission with Force Lightning, in the comic he Force Pushes Vader mid duel before finishing him with Force Lightning, and in the DS version of the game he ragdolls Vader.

All in all, any comparisons between Galen and ESB/ROTJ Luke are totally unjustified, they have no merit whatsoever due to the circumstances surrounding both Galen vs Vader fights.

He has “greater mastery over himself and over the Force” since ANH, has “largely freed himself of pain through the Force” and “advanced his lightsaber technique”, thus making him “a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.” He’s also freed himself from the limitations of his suit (S&V#8). So, overall, his combative deadliness and power in the Force have increased dramatically since his fights with Galen Marek. This is the Vader that Luke Skywalker in ESB faces off against, and he does extremely well considering his extreme deficit in training and experience.

So, Luke holds his own against Vader at the height of his powers, in a state “far more formidable” in combat than what Galen Marek faced - all with a bare minimum of training. Vader even tells Luke that he was performing better than Ben Kenobi on the Death Star, “You have been learning, you’re young and quick, you offer me better sport than the old man.” (ESB:RD). The duel was “long and trying” for both combatants, and Luke was constantly improving as the duel progressed (Link). Lucas describes it as a “slightly one-sided sword fight” (Link), and “It is only Vader’s much greater experience that gives the Dark Lord the dominant edge in the battle.” (Insider #62)

This paragraph is pointless given that the Galen vs Vader segments of my post don’t have any merit, though I’ll make some observations anyway. Regarding the fight,I feel the need to point out that Luke was on the losing end of the exchange, he performed well sure, but in the end Vader was definitely the vast superior - they’re clearly on opposite ends of the same tier. Luke is completely exhausted from the first exchange in the Carbonite Freezing Chamber, meanwhile at the end of the duel Vader comes on “twice as powerful” as before and pushes Luke back. The entire thematic premise of ESB is that Luke wasn’t close to ready to face Vader - he can contend - but an accurate scale if we assume Vader’s musings on Ben vs Luke are accurate is:

ESB Vader>>ESB Luke~ANH Ben~ANH Vader. 

Which given that Starkiller is like >>>>>> Vader, this comparison doesn’t really favour Luke at all.

During his final confrontation with Vader, Luke was his father's equal as a duelist and as a Force user (Link), despite Vader exhibiting "more deadly invincibility than ever" [1] and "brings his full strength and power" against his son [2]. To put this into perspective, Luke with 4 years of training, most of it concentrated within one session with Ben, some time with Yoda on Dagobah and the rest self-taught is the combat equal of a Vader “far more formidable” than TFU Vader, the same Vader Starkiller cannot overcome in TFU2 by normal means (taking advantage of an opening in his chest panel made by Juno during her surprise attack).

I don’t disagree with anything here, it’s just pointless. There were circumstances to Starkiller’s fight with Vader - a lot of circumstances actually - and Starkiller still won. These comparisons to try to shit on Galen’s potential and disprove the clear narrative intent of the game developers don’t hold the slightest bit of water.

D) Galen vs Luke: Sidious Comparisons


A mere six years after the events of ROTJ, Luke Skywalker defeated Darth Sidious in a lightsaber duel, being “too strong” for him (note that Luke isn't stronger than Sidious in overall power) (Link). Compare this with Sidious’ casual ragdoll of “enlightened” Starkiller in the Dark Side ending for TFU1:

Starkiller has had a decade and a half of ruthless training under Darth Vader, only to be completely ripped apart and casually ragdolled by Sidious. Conversely, Luke with ten years of training, most of it self taught had become stronger than Sidious. The disparity in potential and growth is clear.

That’s some suspect insight. Do you remember what Galen’s enlightenment was? Because it genuinely doesn’t seem like you do:

Glancing over Darth Vader's shoulder, he saw the Emperor watching the duel, his face screwed up in malevolent delight. And the apprentice understood. A better way to kill. . .
Not out of hatred. Whatever lay beneath that black mask, it wasn't beauty or happiness. Only ugliness and pain would hide itself away for so long. Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader.
Source: The Force Unleashed Novelization

Galen’s enlightenment - as you have so aptly called it - was realising that he shouldn’t kill Vader out of hate but rather out of pity. Now, what does Galen do in the Dark Side ending (you may find a clue in the name of the ending)? Yes, that’s right, funnily enough he embraces the Dark Side, choosing to get his revenge on Vader as opposed to helping Kota and the rebels, and when he attacks Sidious he is visibly angry. This clearly isn’t Enlightened!Galen, in fact, he’s the opposite of enlightened. To back up my points, we’ve seen what happens when Enlightened!Galen faces Sidious, he defends against his Lightning for 30 seconds (see section 1).


[size=30]4) Galen’s Power: Vader Scaling[/size]


Though after enlightenment, Galen gains an advantage in the lightsaber duel, penetrating Vader’s defences. He then proceeds to telekinetically ragdoll Vader:

So does this prove that Galen is more powerful than Vader to the point where he can outright ragdoll his former master? Not at all. Note first that Galen Marek is a TK savant, and his prodigious abilities in this area are disproportionate to his actual power level (Link). His telekinetic feats are not indicative of his actual power - they’re stronger. Furthermore, Vader’s dueling skills are severely inferior to his power (Link), making his loss against Starkiller in a duel irrelevant to the topic of power. Thus, the power disparity between Vader and Galen is vague and unquantifiable; since Starkiller’s TK is disproportionate to his actual power level, which would explain away why he was able to ragdoll Vader via TK without deferring to Starkiller simply being more powerful.

So many excuses lmao. Do you think Sean Williams really sat there and had Galen dominate Vader in every fundamental area relevant to combat - both Force and sabers - yet had the thought process your outlining now i.e. Galen isn’t vastly more powerful


Sorry HP, this has to be done, you have been treating me like shit my whole life. Sorry not sorry. -DC77. I am Reborn.

Can you please not post incomplete content on the forums? Thanks!

@HP Why is this so obnoxiously large?

to make sure u guys can feel his rage.

MP is spanking, btw.

Is @HP HP or someone else. I thought that @The Apprentice was HP... damn I'm lost. Anyway excellent post thus not finished I think.

Good post. Starred.

xolthol wrote:Is @HP HP or someone else. I thought that @The Apprentice was HP... damn I'm lost. Anyway excellent post thus not finished I think.

It's our worst nightmare. The Starwanker fans are cloning themselves.

Valkwankers need to die, a nightmare came true.