Freedon Nadd vs Marka Ragnos

All-out

Nadd, solidly

Do Nadd against all sith preceeding him imo

Marka

Ragnos. The comic itself before things got retconned placed Nadd as a Dark Jedi who never became Dark Lord. It's never said why he became Dark Lord, although I'd believe in one of the reasons proposed being he just didn't have time to wait and wanted to conquer already. 

But, Nadd was taking orders from Ragnos and being a Dark Lord>Dark Jedi status in the comic. Yeah, a lot of this info was retconned but in other works Ragnos is still held in high esteem such as the dark side sourcebook putting him on the same tier as Sidious.

Freedon Nadd. He was stated to be "far more powerful" than Naga Sadow.

Marka Ragnos, Nadd is well-above Sadow, but Sadow was not close to Marka Ragnos by any indication. His spirit goes around scolding Sadow/Kressh and Exar/Ulic and they duck and obey like schoolboys who got a stern order from a teacher. Marka Ragnos was top dog in a much more impressive, sprawling sith empire. For all we know Marka Ragnos is the apex of the sith race and escapes being just another link in a scaling chain. MR casually beating  a Terentatek with his bare hands is also a better strength feat than Nadd has as far as I know.

@RhoyneDelta The Freedon Nadd that was "far more powerful" than Naga Sadow was pre-prime. He then had 100 years of further growth and became "the greatest Sith sorcerer that had ever existed." This statement would include Marka Ragnos. As for the Terentatek feat, KotOR Revan has bettered it so I wouldn't count it as some great deed.

@Caelus Pall

He did not become "the greatest sith sorcerer that had ever existed.", the quote says "He only needed time to become the greatest Sith sorcerer that had ever existed... and then he would return to take his revenge on the jedi" not only does the TotJ companionbook describe Freedon Nadds thoughts and is not necessarily objective (his revenge conquest did not really happen unless you really stretch it either) it says that he will return against the jedi in a revenge conquest once he reached that level of power, but the jedi came to him andn took him out before he did that, so he was not that powerful by his own estimate.

Even if he was a better sorcerer MR could still be better for example by being physically superior (has the better feat and was also noted for "tremendous physical power"), a better duelist (dueled sith presumably for centuries, plus he is literally the model for sith juggernauts so his dueling prowess left  alasting impression and mark on history), more raw power or his artifacts which are impressive, like the Scepter of Ragnos, a amulet that can ragdoll Darth Nox or his gauntlets that are desribed as glowing with power. He can also channel the spirits of dead sith so even if Nadd was stronger normally he can amp his output beyond that.

Revans feat is not better than Marka Ragnos and it's not necessarily a strength feat, he defeated two terantateks in a fight, presumably with saber and force abilities. MR casually beat a terantatek into submission regularly. A heavily injured apprentice Teneb Kel made short work of  a Terantatek does not mean he could beat it. Even if Revans feat was better, nice for him, not Nadd.

A Exar that was determined to fight to the death and dusted Nadds spirit, then grew stronger, still cucked and bowed before Markas spirit and MR spirit was generally portrayed as superior as @The Merchant described.

@RhoyneDelta

Even still, he was greater than Naga Sadow before his 100 years of growth.

Naga Sadow was the model for the Sith Marauder, yet he duelled evenly with Ludo Kressh. Besides that, Nadd while still a Jedi Padawan defeated the renowned Jedi Master Matta Tremayne in a lightsaber duel. He then studied under Naga Sadow, surpassing and killing him, and then conquering his own planet and ruling for more than 100 years, killing countless Jedi with his lightsaber and many more with his blaster. As a Sith spirit, he gifted King Ommin and the Keto cousins with numerous Sith amulets, one being the amulet eventually worn by Ulic Qel-Droma. Nadd can also claim corrupted spirits.

As for Marka Ragnos beating his pet Terentatek, he used the Force to do that. The full quote says "Left to guard the tomb serving as the resting place for its master, Marka Ragnos, the beast has dwelled in darkness for centuries. Legend tells that Ragnos beat his pet nightly, warping it with the Force until it was a creature of pure hate and anguish."

Regarding Exar Kun it wasn’t just Marka Ragnos that manifested in the middle of his duel with Ulic Qel-Droma, it was "a host of Sith spirits, led by the shade of Marka Ragnos." Battling one Sith spirit is very different to battling a host of them, especially when your rival is in the room and you have to watch out for him too.

@Caelus Pall

Nadd having surpassed Sadow does not necessarily mean in every aspect, which is something we see all the time from the RoT sith for example. Sadow might have been a better duelist, but because of Nadds stronger power and force enhancement he might have still been soundly surpassed or in any number of ways. That he favored his blaster over his saber fits with that and I am confident that MR can react to blaster bolts. Sure Nadd has amuletts but I don't see them as as impressive as the ones MR has like the Scepter that can drain a nexus and turn armies of muggles into force wielders. The amps MR gave out to both Ulic and Exar were also superior to Aleema with all her artifacts, so those artifacts are really low-tier for MR and he has a solid advantage when it comes to artefacts.

Now that might just be me not being a native-english speaker, but I think it is possible to read that terantatek quote as him physically beating him up and then just furthering it's corruption not that he necessarily beat it with the force. Given that the word "beat" is used, that MR is noted for "tremendous physical power" and was considered to be a quintessential juggernaut I think thats more likely. But even if that was not the case and he did "beat it with the force" that he did it routinely and casually does not put that feat under Revans. Revan also still is not really relevant to the discussion.

Sure there werethree other sith spirits in the background, but MR was clearly the main heavy hitter and stronger than them, he even says to them "my power is all that concerns you" and plus Exar and Ulic are at this point both superior to the spirit of Nadd and are stubborn enough to fight to the death, but still offer no resistance and even let him grab their heads. Then MR further boosts them each with power beyond Aleema Ketos and all her shit. They both don't offer resistance, there is not even a implication of them wanting to rebell and afterwards they just grin with glee to obey Markas Ragnos their pimp. Plus he was the lord of the sith spirits, while Nadd was not. The comic just portrays MR spirit unambiguously as well above Nadds spirit. Simply Nadd << Marka Ragnos

@RhoyneDelta

Again, Nadd as a Jedi Padawan matched Matta Tremayne in a lightsaber duel. Tremayne was a Swordmaster and the Order's lightsaber instructor. This feat is vastly pre-prime, taking place before his training under Sadow and well before his 100 years of growth after conquering Onderon. Nadd killed Jedi with both his lightsaber and his blaster, that he killed more with his blaster is beside the point. It's more than we have for Ragnos either way. As for Ragnos being able to dodge blaster fire, Force-users can do this, yes, but the fact that Nadd has already been said to kill Force-users this way and the many Jedi deaths we saw at the end of the Clone Wars doesn't make this a given.

Now onto the Scepter of Ragnos. While it's neat that it can imbue Force-sensitivity into ordinary beings, its uses other than that is highly disappointing. Despite it being able to siphon and store dark side energy from places such as Yavin IV and Vjun, and being used on Korriban by the spirit of Marka Ragnos himself, it was not enough to beat a neophyte Jedi and was broken by said Jedi. Am I supposed to be impressed by that?

The amp Ragnos gave to Kun and Ulic is good, but it being greater than the amp Aleema Keto's Sith amulets give her isn't that impressive either. I mean, it's Aleema. Meanwhile, Nadd as a spirit can stop a Jedi Master from telepathically helping his former student from across the galaxy, and heal the extensive injuries suffered by Kun, fully rejuvenating his body. This is one of the most impressive healing feats in the mythos, and it is done as a spirit.

The quote in question says he beat his pet and then explains how he beat it. By using the Force. Your reliance on amulets and physical strength in this battle is both confusing and telling.

"My power is all that concerns you" was said in response to Ulic asking who Ragnos was, not in reference to the other Sith spirits' power, though him being the leader of the host was never in question. The quote I provided explicitly stated he was the leader. Kun and Ulic stopping their duel when a host of Sith spirits appear is common sense. Ragnos then says they are the future of the Sith and offers them more power. Accepting more power and being proclaimed as Sith Lords by the Ancient Sith doesn't diminish them.

@Caelus Pall

I know about Tremayne I just do not see it as a major thing. Honestly imo you are hurting your overall case by hyping up the power of a blaster pistol. The Jedi in Order 66 were surprised and betrayed and shot at by many opponents at the same time and still except for the three cases shown in the movie most notable masters still survived. Too many fodder characters have reacted to blaster bolts to place it outside MR comfort zone. Plus I really don't think he needs to react to it anyway, honestly Ragnos can most likely just no-sell a blaster bolts. Sith race has superior durability to humans. Exal kressh whose claim to fame is being a descendant of someone who is far below Ragnos tanked several shots to the face, from a bigger firearm and contiued the fight. (those shot of course could only be landed because she was locked into combat with another opponent) Exal Kressh was also a dainty inquisitor, not a quintessential juggernaut like Ragnos. So without artefacts Ragnos can probably shrug blaster bolts off, but then we can also consider his potent amulets, the Gauntlet of Kressh the Younger (inferior to ragnos) even while incorrectly worn by a lightsider allowed Lucien Draay to survive orbital bombardment.

To add insult to injury Ragnos has been described as "adept at blocking incoming attacks" and "nearly unwoundable"

Jaden Korr was young, but he was still a badass. Even at his most conflicted he beat  a enhanced clone of Kam Solusar in Riptide. More importantly if Jaden Korr had turned evil, he would have been able to kill Kyle Katarn with help of the Scepter, which is the darkside ending. It did not happen canonically, but there is no reason to assume that it is not what would have happened under those circumstances. The Scepter literally one-shots Kyle Katarn and is also still more impressive than  a blaster in general lmao, even just collapsing large stone walls gives it that privilege. If you are arguing for the merits of  a blaster, then yes you should be impressed by pretty much any weapon.

Whats more is that Nihilus mask was hyped up for supposedly being able to give a muggle force powers. Nihilus tied his own freaking soul-essence to the mask and it was still "maybe it can give one person power"-tier. Ragnos possessing Tavion as a spirit is also impressive since both Sidious and Valkorion note that Essence Transfer against someones will is very difficult and Ragnos did it as a weakened spirit, where other sith like Bane could amp it by having their body be consumed.

You are now lowballing Aleema, but remember that she had loads of Nadds amuletts, thats making Nadd look pretty bad, also Ragnos gave out two massive amps to two people who according to you were already superior to him, which someone as concerned about self-preservation as Ragnos obviously would not do. Also yeah Baas was trying to reach across the entire galaxy to reach Exar, while Nadd stood besides him, Nadd messing up his connection is not super impressive and while he was doing such stuff Ragnos was the leader of the sith spirit and also appeared before the Grandmaster of the jedi just to taunt him. Nadds spirit got busted by a Exar thats weaker than the one Ragnos casually garbbed at the head and we know that Exar is way too prideful and vain to let anyone weaker than him do that. Heck even when Exar was nominally a lightsider he went completely ballistic when he got his head scratched in a training fight against Sylvar and here Ragnos is grabbing darkside Exar and Ulic at the same time and further powering them. Plus you know Ragnos was still the leader of the sith spirits not Nadd.

Amulets and physical strength are totally relevant topics to a fight between the two lol. Also you still have not made an argument.  The fact that Ragnos could beat the terantatek casually and regularly means the feat is not necessarily below the Revan feat and you still have not even tied Revan into the discussion. This whole segment is a complete nothing-burger on your part. (plus you did not actually debunked my alternative interpretation, the two things following after another does not encessitate a causal connection)



Ulic and Exar are not diminished but Nadd is by him not being the leader of the spirits, but Ragnos. You originally argued that the back-up of his far inferiors allowed Ragnos spirit to do what he did, basically just walking up to two suspicious Nadd-busters grabbing their heads and giving them huge amps without fearing about getting attacked by them or anything like that. Ragnos has clear authority and dominion ovber that scene and a sith who ruled for centuries would also be wise enough to not get into a situation where he could easily get killed or where he would have to depend on the loyalty of subordinates. Ultimately the comic just is not ambiguous about Ragnos spirit being a way bigger deal than Nadds.

Honestly I felt like I was mostly repeating myself and at this point I feel like I have made a good case for Ragnos, I don't see any of the previous pro-Nadd arguments threatening him at all. If this was a SS I would be confident to leave it to the judges at this point, let anyone reading form their own opinion, so I think I am not gonna respond further. (I also should probably be studying right now lol)

@RhoyneDelta

Tremayne is one of the only Jedi we know in that time period, is a Jedi Master and holds an important position in the Order. She's part of Nadd's history and an early feat. Of course you would include it.

You were the one hyping up blaster fire, not me. You were hyping up how Ragnos can dodge blaster fire. I was just responding to you.

Why is Ragnos "a weakened spirit"? It's his tomb on Korriban. Both of Nadd's tombs were Force nexuses.

"Ragnos beat his pet nightly, warping it with the Force until it was a creature of pure hate and anguish." It doesn't say "nightly, and warping it" so it's not two separate things. It's one sentence saying he beat it and then explaining how he beat it.

I'm not going to respond to any new arguments you've made as you've said you are done with this debate. I enjoyed it regardless. Good luck studying.

@Caelus Pall

Thanks dude