Darth Malgus vs Count Dooku

Starkiller had a bag full of impressive showings - what did he accomplish against Darth Vader even then?

NotAA3 wrote:@S_W_LeGenD

Starkiller had a bag full of impressive showings - what did he accomplish against Darth Vader even then?

He stomped him in TFU 1 and beat him while completely exhausted in TFU 2?

Rechecked my edited response. I clearly mentioned to let it develop in full before commenting on it.

Darth Vader held his own against both Galen Marek and Starkiller in each battle. This is a potential discussion in itself but beyond the scope of my previous response.

NotAA3 wrote:@S_W_LeGenD

Rechecked my edited response. I clearly mentioned to let it develop in full before commenting on it.

Darth Vader held his own against both Galen Marek and Starkiller in each battle. This is a potential discussion in itself but beyond the scope of my previous response.

Well, I fundamentally disagree that Vader "held his own" and that Starkiller "barely succeeded". This isn't true in TFU - when Galen becomes enlightened he stomps Vader - and in TFU 2 the fight is explicitly circumstantial, because, as aforementioned, Galen was exhausted.

The apprentice understood that, until this moment, they had never truly fought as equals. His Master had either held back, or he himself had capitulated. Now, for the first time, they would see each other's true potential. Where Darth Vader was strong and relentless, he was fast and sly. And there were ways to fight that didn't involve lightsabers. Loose objects, accelerated to killing speeds by the Force, became projectiles that converged from all directions. Invisible fists clutched for throats or punched with the power of pile drivers. Floors tipped underfoot; severed beams stabbed like javelins; overloaded circuits exploded.

Taken from Star Wars: The Force Unleashed

"You are weak," the apprentice said as his former Master launched a second series of bone-crushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision.

Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke.

His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses.

The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits.

"You thought I was dead," he said, letting that small triumph spur his determination to new heights. Their lightsabers danced, blurring and
sweeping and shedding sparks in a way that would have been beautiful had their intent not been so deadly. The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its call, seeking a better way to finish the job.

They fought back and forth across the observation dome.

Taken from Star Wars: The Force Unleashed

"I understand you now," he said, still trying to goad his former Master into breaking his concentration. "You killed my father and kidnapped me from Kashyyyk, not just to be your apprentice, but to be a son to you. Was that how your father treated you?"

The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled. "I have no father."

The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain. He, on the other hand, had definitely struck a nerve.

Glancing over Darth Vader's shoulder, he saw the Emperor watching the duel, his face screwed up in malevolent delight. And the apprentice understood. A better way to kill...

Not out of hatred. Whatever lay beneath that black mask, it wasn't beauty or happiness. Only ugliness and pain would hide itself away for so long. Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader.

Taken from Star Wars: The Force Unleashed

Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith lightning.

broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath.

"I don't need to hate you in order to beat you," he gasped. "That's something I will teach you now."

"You can teach me nothing," Darth Vader's leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight.

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.

For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.

Taken from Star Wars: The Force Unleashed

"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask.

The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.

"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."

The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound.

There was no blood. Instead of pressing the attack, the apprentice stood his ground.

Despite himself, he was as surprised as his former Master clearly was.

For a moment, the only sounds were the twin humming of the lightsabers and the wheezing of Darth Vader's respirator.

Then the Dark Lord laughed.

It was an awful sound, empty of humor and full of mockery. In it, the apprentice heard a decade and a half of torture and abuse.

Taken from Star Wars: The Force Unleashed

Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh.

Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking.

The apprentice gripped his lightsaber in both hands and held himself back.

Anger was familiar and powerful; it also clouded his eyes when he most needed to see clearly.

Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the apprentice, however, was gone.

His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the apprentice's father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but until, with a crash, the apprentice ripped the energy field generator in the center of the room right out of the floor and hurled it at his former Master.

The generator exploded with greater force than he had expected, throwing him and everyone else to the floor. The transparisteel dome shattered.

Debris rained everywhere. The sound of the explosion rang in his ears for an unnaturally long time afterward.

He was the first to his feet, striding across the rubble to where Darth Vader lay face-forward, gravely wounded and stripped of his armor in places.

Flesh and machinery showed through the gaps. Finally, some real blood was flowing.

The apprentice stood over him with his lightsaber upraised and ready to strike. His former Master was trying to stand, feebly willing his massive bulk to move as it was supposed to. Servomotors whined and strained.

When he rolled over, the apprentice froze.

Darth Vader's helmet had been ripped away by the blast. Beneath was the face of the man who had stolen and enslaved him, a pathetic, hairless thing covered in wrinkles and old scar tissue. Only the eyes showed the slightest signs of life: blue and full of pain, they stared up at him with undisguised weariness.

The Emperor appeared out of the settling smoke, glee on his face. He raised one hand as though to touch the apprentice. The apprentice felt a wave of hypnotic suggestion flow through him.

Yes! Kill him! He is weak, broken! Kill him and you can take your rightful place at my side!

The apprentice remained frozen, mesmerized by the Emperor's ghastly charisma. Why not? Wasn't this what he had considered on Raxus Prime? If he agreed to that plan, he would be free of one Master and slave to another-but what was to stop him from attacking that Master in turn, one day? He would not make the same mistakes Darth Vader had.

Taken from Star Wars: The Force Unleashed

Galen Marek vs. Darth Vader turned into a lengthy battle in which neither had advantage for a long while.

A part of the exchange:

Galen then employed Dun Möch to see if he could disrupt Darth Vader with this tactic:

Dun Möch produced the desired effect:

Galen then upped his game with his Dun Möch and achieved the desired breakthrough:

Galen then tapped into his anger to fuel his raw power to disarm Darth Vader, and noticed something in the Observation Dome which helped him in turning the tide of the battle eventually:

Darth Vader held his own throughout otherwise.

Starkiller vs. Darth Vader wasn't a one-sided affair either. The latter had improved as well, and knew better this time.

NotAA3 wrote:@S_W_LeGenD

The first portion of the fight is not relevant to our discussion because Galen was hindered until the very end. As is noted by the text, Galen is refusing to give in to his emotions to beat Vader and has no alternative strength to draw from. It is only at the end when he embraces the Light Side that he's fighting to the fullest.

Given that his Dun Moch was an attempt at off-balancing Vader, no, it didn't. Vader doesn't lose focus and the anger he experiences only allows him to "redouble" the intensity of his assault.

The text never actually states that these comments affect Vader in any way. The actual reason Starkiller starts pushing Vader back is directly stated in the text - he has an emotional revelation, and subsequently, pushes Vader back with "a new strength of his own".

(1) Galen explicitly notes that his anger is inferior to the pristine LS clarity he had moments before.

(2) The environmental abuse only really helps with circumventing Vader's durability, it doesn't change the details of the fight itself; in which Galen stomps Vader in Lightsaber combat and then Telekinetically dominates him.

Vader was forced on the back foot, proved unable to disengage from the fight/create the necessary space needed to escape Galen's onslaught, got struck repeatedly with a Lightsaber in a short span of time, and then Telekinetically dominated. If that's "holding his own" I honestly don't know what you consider a stomp.

It wasn't a one-sided affair, no, but Galen was exhausted during the fight, and multiple indicators make it clear he'd decimate Vader at his peak.

At the very last moment, as he raised his lightsaber to cut through the curved durasteel on which he knelt, he realized that everything he had ever done had led him to this moment. This was the confrontation he had been heading toward since Darth Vader had kidnapped him from Kashyyyk and made him his instrument. Twice in the past Vader had betrayed him and he had barely uttered a word in complaint, but, eventually, servants always turned on their masters, just as the Sith always betrayed one another. This moment represented the culmination of a lifetime's training and experience.

This was his most challenging test. Killing Jedi had been easy by comparison.

Destroying Imperial factories, likewise. Bringing down skyhooks and Star Destroyers, convincing would-be rebels of his sincerity, dueling planetary minds and other servants of the dark side-all in a day's work. His life's work was about to begin or to end, depending on how he looked at it.

Taken from Star Wars: The Force Unleashed

He thought he was ready-and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise.

A simple double stroke, up and then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrists and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely. The collision of their lightsabers was blinding. He staggered backward and found himself at the center of a telekinetic storm. His Master seized on his momentary weakness and hurled missiles at him from all sides, hoping to keep him off his guard. For a moment, it worked.

Then the apprentice straightened and, with a sweep of his left arm, blew the missiles away. He blocked a savage slash that would have cut him in two and another that would have lifted his head clean from his shoulders.

Ducking low, he stabbed for his Master's belly then flicked the tip of his lightsaber upward, hoping to catch the chin of Darth Vader's helmet and spear him through the throat. The red lightsaber blocked the blow, but only barely. They parted for a moment to assess the brief exchange and circled each other warily.

The apprentice understood that, until this moment, they had never truly fought as equals. His Master had either held back, or he himself had capitulated. Now, for the first time, they would see each other's true potential. Where Darth Vader was strong and relentless, he was fast and sly. And there were ways to fight that didn't involve lightsabers. Loose objects, accelerated to killing speeds by the Force, became projectiles that converged from all directions. Invisible fists clutched for throats or punched with the power of pile drivers. Floors tipped underfoot; severed beams stabbed like javelins; overloaded circuits exploded.

Taken from Star Wars: The Force Unleashed

Galen was under no illusion that Darth Vader would represent a true test of his abilities:

Everything he had done in the past, was a lesser feat in comparison.

The first paragraph highlight just a part of the battle (the battle that had begun earlier), and is a valid consideration in itself. Galen Marek and Darth Vader are exchanging blows, and Galen finally had a true measure of the capabilities of his opponent but he had grown as well; he would not capitulate this time like in the past. Galen had grown in all aspects by now including in mental capacity; he had evolved prior to this battle. This is the intended message of the paragraph. In no way or form, Galen is hindered in the exchange.

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its call, seeking a better way to finish the job.

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:Glancing over Darth Vader's shoulder, he saw the Emperor watching the duel, his face screwed up in malevolent delight. And the apprentice understood. A better way to kill...

Not out of hatred. Whatever lay beneath that black mask, it wasn't beauty or happiness. Only ugliness and pain would hide itself away for so long. Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader.

Galen then used Force Lightning to break Darth Vader's onslaught, countered a telekinetic move of his opponent, and upped his game with Dun Möch to see if it could produce the desired effect (i.e. create an opening for him to exploit to his advantage) and the tactic was working this time (a new strength of his own); now Darth Vader was on the back foot followed by a minor lapse in his judgement which was seized upon by Galen and he scored a hit on Darth Vader's armor around his throat but there was no sign of blood gushing out from it.

The outcome surprised Galen (he was like: this tactic actually works if you get it right).

It surprised Darth Vader as well (he was like: his lightsaber cut is not deep enough and I am still alive) and in his excitement - he laughed... BIG MISTAKE. His laugh enraged Galen, and now Darth Vader ended up disarmed by his hand.

Galen then bombarded Darth Vader with projectiles; Galen also pulled down the energy field generator and turned it into a projectile which struck Darth Vader and the battle was virtually over at this point.

I do not see a STOMP in all that.

Galen had to use every trick up his sleeve including use of Dun Möch and the environment (projectiles; energy field generator above all) to his advantage, to win. This is not straightforward victory.

Jedi Master Orgus Din collapsed an entire section of a gigantic cave to block an important infiltration route of Flesh Raiders:

If this was Darth Vader, some of the members would be singing songs over it. Darth Maul does something similar on a much smaller scale (starship hyperdrive) and some of the members were like GAGA GAGA over it.The feat [in question] is on another level in comparison to the usual stuff - shattering rocks and walls. Anakin Skywalker is an odd ball. When in the right frame of mind, he was able to do things which would make even Yoda envy, but these are his OUTLIER showings, and his ACTUALIZED POWERS were not at par (the norm). When in the right frame of mind, he was able to defeat Count Dooku. But he utterly failed to defeat Obi-Wan Kenobi on Mustafar which is really strange. Anakin's showings encompass lot of fluctuations; he needed a better teacher. Obi-Wan was always like "be mindful of your thoughts Anakin." As if he wanted Anakin to remain CLIPPED or something.

THE ENTIRE BATTLE involving Darth Malgus is to be taken into consideration; not just a single act of malice in a lengthy sequence-of-events. Could Anakin Skywalker exchange blows with the likes of the Alliance Commander, one of the most powerful Jedi Masters in Tau Idair, and a cyborg Jedi Knight at the same time and live to tell the tale afterwards? Could he send these opponents packing away from himself with his telekinetic abilities a moment after being disarmed and badly injured? Could he create sufficient room for himself to sabotage the Meridian Complex by extension, and make it out alive yet still? These are pressing questions and considerations when viewed in combination. The odds Darth Malgus was up against - presented a WHOLE NEW LEVEL of challenge in comparison to Count Dooku in isolation. No wonder Palpatine felt and mentioned that Darth Malgus's battlefield feats were never duplicated; Palpatine most likely knew much more then what is/was revealed in the Book of Sith.People want to gauge strength of a character based on how massive a structure he is able to bring down or able to move in isolation. These showings can help establish an argument but not very telling in every manner of parallel drawn, mind you.

I am sure that WE have not seen the very best of Darth Malgus in his battles thus far; he was capable of producing a Force Maelstrom - an application whose knowledge and command enabled Palpatine to produce a Force Storm (Wormhole). Thanks to Vaylin, WE all have seen firsthand what happens when a Force Maelstrom materialize; it swiftly overwhelm any number of opponents caught in its sphere of energies and begins to tear the entire setting apart by extension. This is not a joke. Individuals such as Asajj Ventress and Count Dooku are not equipped to deal with an expression of raw power of this kind; even Arcann (a remarkably powerful Force-user) wasn't, and this puts into question the ability of Revan (Reborn) and Yoda by extension.

HeartoftheForce wrote:Tau Idair would be a better match.

NotAA3 wrote:Keep in mind that this comment isn't solely referring just to Vader, he's also confronting The Emperor here, too - hence why this is his most difficult task yet.

NotAA3 wrote:Galen had obviously grown since the start of the novel where he trained with Vader - they're now equals - but that's obviously not the point of contention. The point is that Galen is explicitly resisting the primary source of his strength (the Dark Side), and has no alternative strength to draw from. This is directly stated within the fight itself:

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its call, seeking a better way to finish the job.

Galen then receives an emotional revelation later in the fight that he can kill Vader through pity - not hatred - and immerses himself in the Light Side (i.e. a better way to kill):

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:Glancing over Darth Vader's shoulder, he saw the Emperor watching the duel, his face screwed up in malevolent delight. And the apprentice understood. A better way to kill...

Not out of hatred. Whatever lay beneath that black mask, it wasn't beauty or happiness. Only ugliness and pain would hide itself away for so long. Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader.

It's after this revelation that he totally destroys Vader. Note that, we've seen other characters benefit immensely from embracing the Light Side in a moment of clairvoyance. For example, in Legacy, Cade Skywalker - after he learns to forgive his mother - finally fully embraces the Light Side, and gains a "new mastery of the Force", which makes him to go from being given decent fights by Darth Talon to absolutely stomping her. The Dun Moch, in this case, isn't necessarily an attempt to off-balance Vader, but rather explain the truth that Galen doesn't need to hate in order to beat him - he can overpower him by utilising the Light Side:

Galen then used Force Lightning to break Darth Vader's onslaught, countered a telekinetic move of his opponent, and upped his game with Dun Möch to see if it could produce the desired effect (i.e. create an opening for him to exploit to his advantage) and the tactic was working this time (a new strength of his own); now Darth Vader was on the back foot followed by a minor lapse in his judgement which was seized upon by Galen and he scored a hit on Darth Vader's armor around his throat but there was no sign of blood gushing out from it.

To further expand on that point, this is complete conjecture and never stated in the passage (unlike my interpretation). There's no indication that the Dun Moch actually caused Vader to lose focus, and he even mocks Galen's comments even after being overpowered. Moreover, Galen starts to push Vader on the back foot before he's even actually fully into his speech - when all he's said is: "I don't hate you. I pity you." So, these two comments are all Galen needs to say to beat Vader? Why didn't every Jedi just say they don't hate Vader and cause him to lose focus?

The outcome surprised Galen (he was like: this tactic actually works if you get it right).

The bracketed comment is never actually stated; it's equally plausible Galen was simply taken aback by the fact that him utilising the Light Side actually worked as well as it did.

It surprised Darth Vader as well (he was like: his lightsaber cut is not deep enough and I am still alive) and in his excitement - he laughed... BIG MISTAKE. His laugh enraged Galen, and now Darth Vader ended up disarmed by his hand.

As I said in my previous post: "Galen explicitly notes that his anger is inferior to the pristine LS clarity he had moments before."

Galen then bombarded Darth Vader with projectiles; Galen also pulled down the energy field generator and turned it into a projectile which struck Darth Vader and the battle was virtually over at this point.

As I said in my previous post: "The environmental abuse only really helps with circumventing Vader's durability, it doesn't change the details of the fight itself; in which Galen stomps Vader in Lightsaber combat and then Telekinetically dominates him."

Moreover, these environmental factors were there for Vader to use as well. The difference is Galen is far more powerful so he can actually hold Vader in place with Telekinesis in order to actually successfully abuse the environment.

I do not see a STOMP in all that.

Galen had to use every trick up his sleeve including use of Dun Möch and the environment (projectiles; energy field generator above all) to his advantage, to win. This is not straightforward victory.

Discounting your made-up circumstances, I definitely see a stomp. The devil is in the detail, Galen dominates Vader in every form of combat; be it a Force contest, or a Lightsaber duel.

P.S. Please don't write out another large post filled with fat and repetition. Keep it concise, and make sure you actually address all of my rebuttals.

The Star Wars: The Force Unleashed wrote:They fought back and forth across the observation dome.

"I understand you now," he said, still trying to goad his former Master into breaking his concentration. "You killed my father and kidnapped me from Kashyyyk, not just to be your apprentice, but to be a son to you. Was that how your father treated you?"

The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled. "I have no father."

The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain. He, on the other hand, had definitely struck a nerve.

Glancing over Darth Vader's shoulder, he saw the Emperor watching the duel, his face screwed up in malevolent delight. And the apprentice understood. A better way to kill. . .

Not out of hatred. Whatever lay beneath that black mask, it wasn't beauty or happiness. Only ugliness and pain would hide itself away for so long. Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader.

Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath.

"I don't need to hate you in order to beat you," he gasped. "That's something I will teach you now."
"You can teach me nothing," Darth Vader's leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight.

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.

For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.

"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.

"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."

The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound.

There was no blood. Instead of pressing the attack, the apprentice stood his ground. Despite himself, he was as surprised as his former Master clearly was.

The Star Wars: The Force Unleashed wrote:For a moment, the only sounds were the twin humming of the lightsabers and the wheezing of Darth Vader's respirator.

Then the Dark Lord laughed.

It was an awful sound, empty of humor and full of mockery. In it, the apprentice heard a decade and a half of torture and abuse.

Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh.

Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking.

The apprentice gripped his lightsaber in both hands and held himself back. Anger was familiar and powerful; it also clouded his eyes when he most needed to see clearly.

Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the apprentice, however, was gone. His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the apprentice's father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but the battery continued until, with a crash, the apprentice ripped the energy field generator in the center of the room right out of the floor and hurled it at his former Master.

The generator exploded with greater force than he had expected, throwing him and everyone else to the floor. The transparisteel dome shattered. Debris rained everywhere. The sound of the explosion rang in his ears for an unnaturally long time afterward.

He was the first to his feet, striding across the rubble to where Darth Vader lay face-forward, gravely wounded and stripped of his armor in places. Flesh and machinery showed through the gaps. Finally, some real blood was flowing.

HeartoftheForce wrote:Dooku ragdolls.

HellfireUnit wrote:

HeartoftheForce wrote:Dooku ragdolls.