Jax Pavan Vs Jaden Korr

@Quorian Debatist great post.  I might  add a few things later, since i’m examining Korr’s feats these days.

//Rwhoosh

@QuorianDebatist
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It was done by a far weaker Jaden than the one in this thread, so no, I don't think throwing a shuttle surpasses him.

Gameplay is not canon. And no that was not story critical it was just for mechanics as in game Jaden can't jump that far. Likewise the effort involved was limited by gameplay as you only need press the "push" button. It's far too vague and against canon policy to use anyway.

Runner did destroy half a building by pushing a speeder into it nonchalant.

Shuttle > Speeder.

The size of the building is never specified.

The text makes clear the building collapsed. It wasn't smashed or destroyed. More or less the speeder took out one of the supports or sides and the rest domino'd  

I do believe Jaden can replicate the feats mentioned, he just hasn't done it himself.

I doubt it honestly. Soldier > Jacen. The second or so they held their lock for isn't really enough to draw conclusive parity. Soldier and Runner were said to be smiling rather than say gritting or straining and it took everything Jaden had to hold them. Likewise just after this Soldier overpowers Jaden on his own with lightning.

The Jaden-clone deactivated his lightsaber and raised his free hand, fingers spread like a claw. Jaden knew instantly what was coming and braced himself as blue Force lightning filled the distance between them.

Jaden adjusted his blade slightly and the lightning caught in it, snaked around its length, spiraled toward the hilt, hit Jaden's hand, his forearm, his bicep.

The power burned his flesh while turning his spirit cold. He grimaced with pain. Trying to resist, he opened himself fully to the Force, but the clone's power was too much.

- Riptide

Despite Jaden bracing for it and opening himself fully to the force.

I don't believe these specific feats put him above Korr.

Bare minimum they put him on par. Which is all Jax needs really as by all indications he can dominate a saber duel.

As for the time manipulation, it was not a full-time stop

You're honestly nit picking. Either way it was enough to fool Vader's perceptions. Who even at this point was no slouch in the area.

In other words, he should have at least been able to tap into it a little.

Pure speculation. If Jax was drawing on the substance the text would have specified it.

And one final thing, but he was familiar with the local time currents before this battle.

Jax isn't referring to the area. He's referring to his ability to manipulate local currents period. The context of the scene is him sizing up his chances against Vader.

Greysentinel365 wrote:Gameplay is not canon. And no that was not story critical it was just for mechanics as in game Jaden can't jump that far. Likewise the effort involved was limited by gameplay as you only need press the "push" button. It's far too vague and against canon policy to use anyway.

Well, S-Canon


- Insider 101

How was it not story critical if he can't jump that far and you can't progress in the story without pushing the pillar?

You're mixing up options being available to players with something that happens the same way every time. Yes, it happens in gameplay, but it happens without variance. This is not a case of a player choosing to jump spam, only use the lightsaber, only use the force, etc. You can't script how the player chooses to play, but you can script how an event plays out in everyone's game who has ever gotten to that part. The way it moves, the way it falls, the way it breaks. It's the same every time.

Gameplay is "non-canon" because players choose to play a certain way, and this creates issues when they argue that they didn't force spam in their game, they didn't even use a saber, etc. It avoids the issues caused by these problems. What issue is caused by the pillar falling? That some people glitched past it? Where is the conflicting evidence against the pillar? Where is the quote that states it didn't happen and outlines the actual events contrary to what we encounter? Should we take the least possible options over something you're directed to and thrown in your face as well?

It was the intended path from the game creators.


But yes, you push the button and it happens. They could have scripted him to struggle, but they didn't. And again, that happens every time the same way to my knowledge. It's not really vague at all either. The pillar falls down and he uses it as a bridge.

Greysentinel365 wrote:Shuttle > Speeder.

The size of the building is never specified.

The text makes clear the building collapsed. It wasn't smashed or destroyed. More or less the speeder took out one of the supports or sides and the rest domino'd  

I'm not contrasting the speeder with the shuttle, that was the purpose of the pillar. I'm merely explaining what Cighal might have been mixing up.

It did it because Runner pushed a speeder really hard. It's not a great feat, just something that happened.

Greysentinel365 wrote:I doubt it honestly. Soldier > Jacen. The second or so they held their lock for isn't really enough to draw conclusive parity. Soldier and Runner were said to be smiling rather than say gritting or straining and it took everything Jaden had to hold them. Likewise just after this Soldier overpowers Jaden on his own with lightning.

All we have is them - Jaden and Soldier - matching power on their own, and Jaden holding off against all three.

I'm not opposed to Soldier being above Korr, as it really makes no difference to his feat and makes it more impressive if anything, but, the fact that Jaden was able to withstand a continued assault until Runner walked up beside him doesn't exactly speak to Soldier being above him on his own.

Runner grinned once Korr started falling, not the entire time. We should expect Korr to have to go all out to hold them, it was 2 vs 1 afterall, and later 3 vs 1.

Soldier overpowered Korr blocking lightning with a blade while Lumiya-Clone and the Katarn-Clone were attacking him. They were not simply locked up one-on-one with Soldier gaining the advantage; Korr was letting lighting seep through his blade while being attacked by 2 other people. This is not a good scenario to make the play for Soldier being above him on his own. Korr braced as well as a man can while being assaulted by two other beings, but that's not indicative that he was as prepared as he'd be against pure lightning alone.

They were not grinning as they did it too; this belies the entire scene. They wanted to get past Korr so they could administer medicine to themselves/Grace so they didn't die. They wanted to get past Korr so they could go see Mother and be freed. They weren't in it to torture Korr, they wanted him down and out of the way and were happy to see him finally fall to a knee. They weren't pooling their powers to simply play around. Runner didn't walk up to a Korr - deflecting lightning with his blade - and try and kill him with a saber because he was withholding power. They were definitely trying. I wouldn't be so brazen to state they were going all out, but they weren't the torturing type and Runner was a ball of rage/just got almost knocked out. This was not in any way tantamount to some sort of spar, or whatever it's being passed off as.

The clone [Soldier/Jaden Clone] snarled, held up a hand, palm outward, and met Jaden's blast with his own. Power pressed against power and Jaden and the clone eyed each other across the landing, jaws fixed, eyes locked, neither gaining the advantage.

As one, the two male clones took a step toward Jaden, their power pressing against him. He fell to one knee, grunting against their onslaught, barely holding on.

They took another step and he fell to both knees.

The larger of the two grinned. Jaden recognized him now, behind the beard and hair. He was a clone of Jaden's Master, Kyle Katarn. Anger poured off both clones, anger born of years of frustration and mistreatment. It hit Jaden like a hailstorm. His elbows bent. He was failing, failing.

But he refused to give in.

He grunted, summoned a reserve of strength, extended his arms fully, pushed back against the clones, stood up, and held his ground.

"I won't let you pass," he grunted. "I can't."

His words erased the smile on the Lumiya-clone's face. She shrieked, her calm facade shattering under the sudden expression of her rage. Power went forth from her, joined that of the other two clones, and slammed him against the wall.

"Kill him, Soldier!" she screamed. "Kill him!"

The Jaden-clone deactivated his lightsaber and raised his free hand, fingers spread like a claw. Jaden knew instantly what was coming and braced himself as blue Force lightning filled the distance between them.

Greysentinel365 wrote:Bare minimum they put him on par. Which is all Jax needs really as by all indications he can dominate a saber duel.

Well, Jaden is capable in sabers, but my main contention is that Jax blows Jaden away in the force due to feats. If you want to argue he wins sabers, then I won't oppose you. Maybe Cighal will.

Greysentinel365 wrote:You're honestly nit picking. Either way it was enough to fool Vader's perceptions. Who even at this point was no slouch in the area.

Nitpicking is needed when it's being passed off as an ability he can easily call upon at any time and fight while it's stopped. It fooled Vader's perception enough for him to roll under a starship. It's an escape move in the context it was portrayed under, not an offensive battle tactic.

Greysentinel365 wrote:Pure speculation. If Jax was drawing on the substance the text would have specified it.

Well, that's where the backup quotes of him needing the crystal and, the prior distance being enough for even Vader to feel the effects - of something he's not familiar with on the level of Jax - come in. We're discussing a one-off power that allowed him to dodge under a ship, while he should be in proximity to the effects. Speculation will be involved. Speculation on a potential pure time stop will be involved. I'm giving context to support a notion that wasn't perfectly explained. You might think it's pure speculation, but it's consistent with narration and what little we know of it.

While I think the power is largely useless outside an evasive maneuver, the context behind its workings are still important whether you buy them or not.

Greysentinel365 wrote:Jax isn't referring to the area. He's referring to his ability to manipulate local currents period. The context of the scene is him sizing up his chances against Vader.

Possibly yes, but the main point is that he is familiar with that area and how it flows and works. If you plop him in a new area and have him try to sense the currents, is it going to work as well/quick? Maybe, maybe not. Hence the issues with these one off-powers. Again nitpicking, but I feel your manipulation with your vast inexperience is going to be better when you're more attuned to your surroundings and how they feel. Speculation of course.

We don't know the exact nature of the power, and we never got an intimate look at it to say for sure what or what is not true. Jax had it in the last 1/8th of the book and promptly lost it before book-end. Not just chose not to use it either; got mind-raped so he forgot all knowledge oh how to sense the currents.

How was it not story critical if he can't jump that far and you can't progress in the story without pushing the pillar?

Within the confines of the game mechanics Jaden can't jump that far.

Gameplay is non-canon because it is inherently restrictive and by nature omits options the characters could take within a narrative. Like for instance Jaden simply cutting the base of the pillar via saber and letting it fall, just jumping, hell the ground off to the side is not so slanted. In fact there's a ledge just further along that would allow Jaden to just parkour it.

Like take this example



Did Jaden pull the lift down or did he just trigger the mechanism? Couldn't he just jump that height? Pretty much all even novice force users can jump that, are we saying Jaden is that weak?

As far as the story concerned Jaden took a lift. That's it. How he did it is entirely and by canon ambiguous and therefore unusable

See what I was getting at?

Soldier overpowered Korr blocking lightning with a blade while Lumiya-Clone and the Katarn-Clone were attacking him

Never happened. Korr had already conceded he couldn't stand up to Soldier 1v1. Runner then hits him with a push. Soldier stops the lightning, asks to pass, Koor says no and is attack by him alone and starts being overwhelmed again, Korr manages to block one blow from Runner and then is K.O's by a kick.

He screamed, took his lightsaber hilt in both hands and spun it before him, winding the Force lightning back up along its blade and away from his body. But his focus on the lightning cost him, and a renewed push from the Katarn-clone slammed him against the wall. The side of his face hit the duracrete and he sagged to the floor, struggling to maintain consciousness.

The Jaden-clone, Soldier, walked toward him.

"Just let us go, Jedi," he said.

Jaden's tongue and lips would not make words, so he shook his head.

The lightning sizzled again, the power pushing him along the floor, burning his flesh, searing his spirit. He was still holding his blade, still managing to deflect the bulk of the energy. He just needed to regain his wits, his clarity of thought.

The other clone, the Katarn-clone, appeared before him. Jaden had not seen him approach. His red blade cut down to split Jaden's head. Jaden blocked awkwardly with his blade, which was still enmeshed in Force lightning. The clone snarled, then loosed a Force-augmented kick to the side of Jaden's face that caused him to see stars and sent him careering down the stairs.

- Riptide

The Lumiya clone never took part aside from the one force push.

I wouldn't be so brazen to state they were going all out,

Exactly. Jaden was never able to actually pressure Runner and Soldier. He held, that's it. Given Jax has (at bare minimum) equal feats I see no reason why he wouldn't be able to pressure him all the same with an all out effort and then close to dismantle in sabers.

While I think the power is largely useless outside an evasive maneuver, the context behind its workings are still important whether you buy them or not.

Just to clear up the context, Jax didn't have access to it's power at all during his fight with Vader.

In fact, Jax had no idea what he would do if someone decided to stop him. After setting up his decoy, he had used the pyronium to power the Aethersprite's disguise. This meant the illusion was, to all intents and purposes, eternal, but it also meant that he didn't have the pyronium with him to extend his use of the Force.

- TLJ

What he did he did on his own. And being close to the gem would make no difference as it was powering the illusion. Once powered, the gem can only follow a previous command without being given new energy. Which Jax didn't give

Jax sat back and withdrew his Force energies from the jewel. Instead of tumbling to the floor of the little room as he might have expected, it stayed aloft ... because he'd touched it directly with the Force, surrounded it with the Force, and given it direction through the Force. It continued to follow that direction.

- TLJ

By my reckoning it's an easy win condition for Jax should he be desperate enough to call on it. Same with his illusions.

@Greysentinel365 I would like to point out that Jaden is about equal to Soldier in TK, as can be seen in the book: 

The clone snarled, held up a hand, palm outward, and met Jaden’s blast with his own. Power pressed against power and Jaden and the clone eyed each other across the landing, jaws fixed, eyes locked, neither gaining the advantage."

―Star Wars Riptide
When he  held off (not stalemated, as i’ve seen some people around saying) both Runner and Soldier that was probably 
because the difference between the two clones in terms of power was rather wide. In fact Soldier downright proclaims himself the best out of all the clones: 
He was different from the others. They knew it and he knew it. He was the best of them, the final specimen created by the doctors

Star Wars: Riptide



If you think his only refers to mental stability or stuff like that, don’t forget that the assassin Nyss could de-power Runner completely and cut him from the force (and even Darth Wyyrlok) but could do so only partially with Soldier. So Soldier>>Runner in power. When you consider the kind of power runner alone could generate ( which is at least comparable with what Pavan) , add Soldier, who is stronger than that, and the fact that both push themselves to their limits and it’s clear to me Jaden was defending from power that goes beyond just lifting a shuttle. 
As for the saber thing, I have nothing to say. Jaden is capable in this regard, but not as skilled as Pavan. And I agree with Grey that Jax takes a majority in dueling and through his unorthodox force techniques, but in TK Korr has the advantage imo. 

For whatever my opinion is worth Im reading the book where Pavan hits his peak its called The Last Jedi. In it Pavan is portrayed as someone VERY intune with the force, more than the flashy stover language too, he finds enlightenment by looking at a small tree through the force. I know my Jaden Korr stuff, but he seems to be mostly a Savage level combatant from what I can tell. I would place Pavan based solely on my readings of his RT and novel, as well as his holistic portrayal he seems to have a much better grasp of the force, he is faster than qui gon jinn who for comparison severely pressed maul who appears more viable of a combatant than Korr.

He’s better than Qui-Gon because?

Greysentinel365 wrote:

How was it not story critical if he can't jump that far and you can't progress in the story without pushing the pillar?

Within the confines of the game mechanics Jaden can't jump that far.

Gameplay is non-canon because it is inherently restrictive and by nature omits options the characters could take within a narrative. Like for instance Jaden simply cutting the base of the pillar via saber and letting it fall, just jumping, hell the ground off to the side is not so slanted. In fact there's a ledge just further along that would allow Jaden to just parkour it.

Like take this example



Did Jaden pull the lift down or did he just trigger the mechanism? Couldn't he just jump that height? Pretty much all even novice force users can jump that, are we saying Jaden is that weak?

As far as the story concerned Jaden took a lift. That's it. How he did it is entirely and by canon ambiguous and therefore unusable

See what I was getting at?

You're conflating restrictions with the ability to delete scripted events at your leisure. Everything you've spoken of is the implications of what game restrictions might mean and where we can direct our headcanon to afterward. Yes, "invisible walls" do exist within the confines of the game, but this is not that. This was not a restriction of game design or level design. This was not "lol, he can't jump over a 2-foot wall," this was him throwing a pillar to get over a 100-foot gap as designed by the level. The only restriction was that he could not accomplish this without said scripted event. An omission is not the same as accomplishing.
Nobody is talking about him being blocked by grass that he can't destroy, can't jump over a 2-foot wall, is too weak to move some debris, etc. These are actual issues caused by immersion breaking restrictions. We're talking about something he actually accomplished. "Why couldn't he just knock down a tree to cross that river?" Well, he did.


And yes, he could have walked a different path, he could have cut it down, he could have done this, he could have done that. The key point is that he didn't. You're speaking of the what-ifs that non-scripted events and freedom afford you, and why gameplay should vary from scripts. If the game gave you the optionS to move the pillar, cut it down, walk another path, or jump over, then sure, you could argue it simply being gameplay as we don't know the correct path. You are forced to do it in that specific way though. Every player, every playthrough, every game. It has to happen. It's no different than a forced cutscene.

Why would we ever assume a possibility our brains come up with take priority over what we are bottlenecked into doing? You have evidence of possibilities. I have evidence of a constant. There is no evidence to the contrary that Jaden moved the pillar, only "I could have done this."
Do you think the better answer to how he got across the gap is "I dunno?" Or do you think we should use the only possible avenue given to us to explain it?


He pulled down the lift because he could. It was there and he could do it by simply pointing at it. He didn't walk around the pillar, because he contained the power to move the pillar. He didn't sit there for an hour thinking he was completely trapped. He saw the best possible course of action and took it.
Not only that, but Jaden was a Jedi Initiate during this time[Sandcrawler lift]. Through the progress of the story, his force jump gets stronger automatically to a point where his basic jump is higher than the lift is at the end of the game. So yes, it's quite possible Jaden simply couldn't jump that high at the time as he had barely any training. After those initial 5 missions, he became an apprentice. Then about 6 more missions/training and defeating a Dark Jedi, he became a Jedi Knight. He did 5-6 more missions and traveled to Korriban. There is a lot of experience and "off-panel" training in-between these two events. Jaden being potentially unable to jump that high while completely new to the Jedi ways does not impact his later force strength.
So, if you want to trap me in a corner here with this, Jaden as a complete beginner-pre-apprentice Jedi can't jump that high, but as a later Jedi "Knight" could level pillars. I'm alright with this consistency.



And this all comes secondary to the fact that gameplay mechanics are canon; S-canon to be precise. This accounts for things you DO in-game, not omission of doing something (unless otherwise specified). So when you tell me that gameplay mechanics are non-canon based on basically choices not being made, that doesn't account for the script forcing you to do something. It's a gameplay mechanic, it's mandatory, and it's Jaden choosing that course of action. Your reasons as is don't persuade me to why we should handwave this away, and why it's non-canon in the first place. This is a made up reason to explain incongruities with games and using them in threads. You can't use your headcanon to disbar the use of canon.
We can sit here and discuss what exactly entails gameplay mechanics, but I think a forced bridge at the very least falls under that definition.



This would be like Darthant66 coming across a river on his way to pick up a new book from the mailbox. He sees an upright 2x12 just long enough to make a plank across the river. He could go around, he could try jumping, or he could try walking across some treacherous stones. The options are there for him to get to the other side. If you were to ask Ant, he would go first and foremost to pushing over the upright plank, that is his opinion and the first option he'd try. If it succeeds, there is no other option for him to try because he has accomplished his task. This is his canon path and while other options were available, this was the only one he attempted. He only picked up his new book because he walked across a plank. He had the capabilities and perhaps even easier options to pick up his new book, but he only used one.

That's with freedom too. It changes more drastically if Ant was held at gunpoint and told he could only cross an unjumpable river by using a plank.

Ant = Jaden
Gun = Level designers
Plank = Bridge
River = Death Pit
River snakes = ISV

Greysentinel365 wrote:

Soldier overpowered Korr blocking lightning with a blade while Lumiya-Clone and the Katarn-Clone were attacking him

Never happened. Korr had already conceded he couldn't stand up to Soldier 1v1. Runner then hits him with a push. Soldier stops the lightning, asks to pass, Koor says no and is attack by him alone and starts being overwhelmed again, Korr manages to block one blow from Runner and then is K.O's by a kick.

The Lumiya clone never took part aside from the one force push.

I have my doubts they just stood around doing nothing, but very well. We'll go by this.

Korr did not concede he couldn't stand up to Soldier 1v1. The power could not be contained the way Korr was trying to fight it with one hand, as he couldn't keep it from hitting his body. As soon as he used both hands along with some spinning, he was able to snake it away from his body and keep it contained to his saber. He got pushed. Korr was using a shitty lightning blocking tactic and adjusted and defended. While using similar powers they were portrayed as equals/Jaden was able to hold out against 2 clones.
Though I'm not sure how Soldier being possibly above Jaden makes this feat worse...? The feat is him withstanding an extensive force battering by the potent Clones while holding his own. If your contention is that Soldier was above him while using lightning/that Jax is equal or greater than Jaden, then that doesn't exactly hurt Jaden's chances in a force battle. He was capable of stalemating and, holding out for a time against two angry clones including the one above him. The feat is still relevant to his power.


Then we also have to consider the context of it. Jaden was matching with Soldier. Runner comes along and adds enough force against Jaden that it taxes him while they're angry. He then drops to one knee and then manages to stand back up and fight back. The Angry Lumiya-Clone then comes along during this extended standoff and blasts Jaden with the other two slamming him into the wall. Jaden had the warning of Soldier raising his hands to get ready for it and tried to deflect it with one hand. The continued outpouring power was too much for one hand. Jaden two hands it and starts fighting back. Then Runner pushes and he was struggling to keep consciousness. He gets zapped while in this state and still manages to deflect the bulk of it. While deflecting the lightning, he still manages to block a saber attack from Runner.

He was never afforded the luxury to tackle Soldier's attacks in a fair capacity. He was repeatedly pushed and battered and was never allowed to get his feet under himself so to speak. Once he started fighting back against the duo-tk assault, Lumiya joined in. He was given no reprieve after this and had to use his full power while getting zapped to combat it. He starts fighting back and gets pushed into the wall by Runner in an effort that almost knocks him out.
Soldier was given favorable circumstances in every instance besides the onset. Just because they may have been one-on-one in that specific instance, it doesn't mean it was on even grounds; especially when he was previously summoning reserves of strength prior to 2 big attacks.


This would be like one Darthant66 fighting against 3 Ants. He completely stalemates the first one at the beginning (and trips Ant2). He gets attacked numerous times and pushed into the wall by all three. Before he can catch his breath, the Trio-leader of Ants starts tasing him. He is initially brought down, but he fills himself with rage, gets up, rips the prongs out of him but then Ant2 throws a chair at him. Commence tasing and baton swings.

The solo Ant was never given the chance to flex his full might in a fair fight, only spurious moments after repeated bashings. We never got to see the end results of his comebacks. He was put on the spot in a disadvantageous position without a taser of his own.

Greysentinel365 wrote:

I wouldn't be so brazen to state they were going all out,

Exactly. Jaden was never able to actually pressure Runner and Soldier. He held, that's it. Given Jax has (at bare minimum) equal feats I see no reason why he wouldn't be able to pressure him all the same with an all out effort and then close to dismantle in sabers.

That is the feat though. Holding out against an equal and another in an extended standoff. It shows his surviability against overwhelming odds without using his lightning. It'd be hard to pressure Jaden in a similar capacity without his own lightning.



It'd be like Darthant66 having issues with a taser prong, and then stating that a taserless-ISV can pressure him to the same degree.

Greysentinel365 wrote:

While I think the power is largely useless outside an evasive maneuver, the context behind its workings are still important whether you buy them or not.

Just to clear up the context, Jax didn't have access to it's power at all during his fight with Vader.

I never said he did the entire time. I made it perfectly clear that he should have only been in-range of it when he performed his time feat. You're using a passage when he was entering the main parts of the ship as opposed to him ending back within range of his ship in the docking bay.


This would be like Darthant66 exiting a heavy radiation area while under the guise that it wouldn't hinder his further adventures. He didn't account for winding up later-on within the radiation waves again. He didn't perform a one-off feat for the first time without said radiation mere feet away from where he could feel the radiation waves again. A one-off feat that he noted earlier to only be able to accomplish due to said radiation.

Greysentinel365 wrote:What he did he did on his own. And being close to the gem would make no difference as it was powering the illusion. Once powered, the gem can only follow a previous command without being given new energy. Which Jax didn't give

That quote doesn't imply that at all. Jax gave it direction because it was previously inert to the force. The only direction he gave it at that point in time was to interact and output force energy, and then he withdrew it while it still floated. It was essentially a generator, and it was literally empowering a ship at the time, which they could feel from a distance. There's no indication it can only empower one thing.

He thought of the brute-force projection of himself that had fooled Magash briefly. He hadn't considered currents then; he had simply cut across them. That near to the present moment, they were barely eddies. But what if he looked closely at those eddies? Could he affect them significantly without sufficient power? The Cephalons' power to see time as they did arose out of their network, and he had none. That suggested what he needed was more raw power.

Of course. The pyronium.

He turned what he now knew about pyronium's interaction with bota over in his mind. There was no bota. Not anymore. The bota plants that now existed had mutated so that they no longer had the capacity to enhance a Force-user's abilities.

But the bota was irrelevant. What was relevant was what it did: it enhanced Force connections. So the real significance of pyronium was that it could somehow be harnessed by or channeled through Force energies. It was theoretically an unlimited source of raw physical power-as the Force was theoretically an unlimited source of psychic energy.

Darth Ramage's interest in the bota had been that it presumably could heighten or deepen the Force energies needed to condition that power and apply it.

Meaning what?

Jax took the pyronium out of his belt pouch and held it out on the palm of his hand. It appeared to his eyes as a milkily iridescent gem the size of a small egg-a flattened ovoid. The Force was not an engine you could plug into. It was a field. An emanation.

A source.

Acting on an impulse, Jax extended Force tendrils to the pyronium, then lowered his hand, leaving the pyronium nugget floating before him in midair. It began immediately cycling through the visible spectrum-yellow, orange, red, violet, indigo, cyan, green, and back to yellow, after several beats in its opalescent form where, Jax realized, it was likely making a few stops on a part of the spectrum he couldn't see.

He fed more Force energy into the gem, and the colors brightened and cycled more swiftly. Of course, it was absorbing the kinetic energy from the Force. But it was doing more than that. It was cycling the energy out again, thought-directed into an impulse that buoyed it up.

Jax sat back and withdrew his Force energies from the jewel. Instead of tumbling to the floor of the little room as he might have expected, it stayed aloft ... because he'd touched it directly with the Force, surrounded it with the Force, and given it direction through the Force. It continued to follow that direction.

At the outer edges of the conceptual wheel in which Jax sat, a shimmering rim burst into being, connecting the spokes.

The indication it worked on commands doesn't lock it to only working on one single command as well. It was still following the direction of empowering objects via the force; IE, outputting force energy. But, from a distance Jax felt he could blow the entire ship up through the pyronium connection. Meaning he could manipulate it from a distance. That doesn't mean it only works as a single command, that means that causing it to literally go kablooey probably won't have it continue to follow the command of powering a ship to cause an illusion...?

As Vader swept toward him, Jax reached back and felt of the connection between the pyronium and the ship. A simple command-a simple trigger-was all it would take to end this.

I don't know, there's a lot of assumption from him just unlocking the Gem's secret powers. It had a new "direction" through the force because that was its entire secret. We're not given a clear definition on it, why would we assume it's a Siri-bot?

He reached into the small pocket in the sash of his tunic that housed the pyronium Anakin had given into his care. It gleamed on his palm-a gem the size of a small egg, iridescent and otherworldly. It was an unknown quantity, alleged to be a source of unimaginable power. A power that was-also allegedly-to be called forth if one only knew the secret. And that, Jax had been led to believe, was revealed on the Sith holocron he had received from Haninum Tyk Rhinann. The holocron that his father, Lorn Pavan, had once tried to acquire.

This would be like Darthant66 using the Mimban Crystal to empower his car. The primary use is to empower his ship, but he's doing that by forcing it to output energy. From a distance he can command it to overload the ship and cause it to explode. This command would obviously stop the chain, but only because it would likely kill Ant in the explosion.

Greysentinel365 wrote:By my reckoning it's an easy win condition for Jax should he be desperate enough to call on it. Same with his illusions.

Under what understanding do you think it'd be an easy win for him? Merely rolling a couple feet almost completely gassed him out, and he accomplished this while out of immediate danger; even setting aside the Pyronium. It was used purely to run away while Vader grabbed more objects. No effort expended into attacking, no effort into running many feet away, just dropping and rolling under a starship.
If he's desperate enough to call upon it, then he's using it for evasion, and would likely die shortly after.

Illusions are another story, however. Not sure why you'd lead with his useless time "powers" when he has that in the bag.




It'd be like Darthant66 throwing a baseball at ISV, and ISV using a time skip right after dodging the first pitch. The Ant would go to aim at the plate and be confused for the split second until he decided to look 5 feet to the left at a gassed out ISV wheezing for life.




I'm alright with Jax winning... for now... just not because of time manipulation or vastly superior shuttle throws.

Better_than_Dooku wrote:He’s better than Qui-Gon because?

I think it’s because he’s fought evenly with Aurra Sing

@Quorian Debatist Jax has better lightsaber feats, that’s the main reason why he could win.