Senya Tirall vs Mace Windu

All-out

Mace calls in Agen who slams her to the ground tenfold

CuckedCurry wrote:Mace calls in Agen who slams her to the ground tenfold

Senya get back on her feet, flex her muscles, and give Agen following treatment:



THAT was The Outlander - one of the most powerful Force-user(s) ever. Trump's WALL saved him.

Agen lands like 10 km away from Senya, probably falls into the abyss somewhere - never to be seen again.

S_W_LeGenD wrote:

CuckedCurry wrote:Mace calls in Agen who slams her to the ground tenfold

Senya get back on her feet, flex her muscles, and give Agen following treatment:



THAT was The Outlander - one of the most powerful Force-user(s) ever. Trump's WALL saved him.

Agen lands like 10 km away from Senya, probably falls into the abyss somewhere - never to be seen again.

Senya wouldn’t make it past Kadrian Sey but I appreciate the creative sentiment

Mace raises one hand hand and Senya goes flying. That or he stomps her in sabers.

INTERJECTION: Senya is very powerful in the ways of the Force - she is neither a Jedi and nor a Sith but a practitioner of the Limitless power philosophy; Light Side and Dark Side does not matter to her - all manner of techniques are acceptable to her if they help her get by.

It was not possible to raise the Gravestone from the surface without her help since this massive superweapon was BADLY STUCK many meters below the surface of soil - presenting a substantially more tedious case of LIFT than lifting a huge starship from above the surface:







NOTE: They all do that AFTER confronting a large number of enemies including several Knights of Zakuul - they still had much energy left in them.

You all can see what she did to The Outlander when she wanted him removed from the scene:



NOTE: That is not a joke but Arcann TIER demonstration of raw power from her, and establish her as being above any living Jedi and/or Sith at the time.

Subjecting Senya to heavy projectiles during the course of a battle is of no use:







NOTE: Senya is able to evade and/or counter with ease.

Removing a huge chunk of heavy debris blocking the path? No problem for Senya:





NOTE: Arcann's gigantic flagship was under attack from a fleet of Eternal dreadnaughts (operated by GEMINI droids) during that time. There was debris everywhere blocking numerous sections.

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INTERJECTION: Senya is a remarkably skilled duelist even for own kind given the fact that she is able to outduel Vaylin among so many others who dared to challenge her in this capacity.

Reflexes and instincts honed over thirty years of training allowed Senya to keep the killing blow at bay… but only barely. She ducked and darted to the left, leaping over one of the raging walls of fire crisscrossing the camp.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: A Mother's Hope)

Senya was absolutely capable of coping with heavy odds on her own, and also ONE-SHOTTING multiple opponents with a single blast of power:









NOTE: THAT is a level of performance that one shall expect from the LIKES of Luke Skywalker - it is not something you see happen usually. Each Knight of Zakuul was better than an average Jedi Knight to begin with. Defeating a bunch of them is a remarkable display of raw power and talent on the part of a lone combatant - only the best of the best could manage in this capacity.

Since Senya could do THAT to a number of Knights of Zakuul and droids in the mix, she is capable of cutting a swath through the ranks of well-trained Jedi with laughable ease.

Understand much about the Knights of Zakuul in the following footage:



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This battle is not a joke for Mace Windu - he is in for a TOUGH fight in this case. He might achieve stalemate with Senya in a lightsaber duel by sinking into VAAPAD but he might need to see a shatterpoint to prevail and he may or may not find one.

My take is that both can WIN or LOOSE depending upon the circumstances of the battle.

On a humorous note, I almost created a Senya respect thread in this post. LMAO.

None of this puts her even remotely close to prime Mace. He still stomps. Carving through Knights of Zakuul who are better than nameless Jedi and Sith (note that random Jedi and Sith were shown to beat Knights in some visions in KOTET chapter 9) isn’t even remotely comparable to matching Darth Sidious in a saber duel and overcoming him.

Second, the Gravestone feat is one you’ve taken out of context. The Outlander was still heavily weakened from carbonite poisoning and had not yet received anything resembling medical care, and Lana had been quite seriously injured by a Knight of Zakuul. Senya adding a dubious amount of help alongside her superior even in his weakened state and another injured Sith who has been revered herself as being extremely strong in the Force doesn’t really help your case. Her best feat is probably defeating that squad of Knights of Zakuul and Skytroopers or Mandalorians, and even that’s not nearly enough to put her close to Mace.

Third, your Senya knocking back the Outlander feat is again severely lacking in context. The Outlander had just engaged Chained Vaylin and was entirely focused on her. Senya leaped down and blasted them with their defences down, sending them flying. She did not break through their defences or knock them away when they were combat ready. Not to mention pushing someone is virtually meaningless as a display of parity or superiority, especially under those circumstances.

Since Senya isn't a DS user, Mace cannot apply Vaapad therefore he loses.

Vaapad or not mace have superior abilities and scaling he should win without too much difficulty

BoD wrote:None of this puts her even remotely close to prime Mace. He still stomps. Carving through Knights of Zakuul who are better than nameless Jedi and Sith (note that random Jedi and Sith were shown to beat Knights in some visions in KOTET chapter 9) isn’t even remotely comparable to matching Darth Sidious in a saber duel and overcoming him.

Second, the Gravestone feat is one you’ve taken out of context. The Outlander was still heavily weakened from carbonite poisoning and had not yet received anything resembling medical care, and Lana had been quite seriously injured by a Knight of Zakuul. Senya adding a dubious amount of help alongside her superior even in his weakened state and another injured Sith who has been revered herself as being extremely strong in the Force doesn’t really help your case. Her best feat is probably defeating that squad of Knights of Zakuul and Skytroopers or Mandalorians, and even that’s not nearly enough to put her close to Mace.

Third, your Senya knocking back the Outlander feat is again severely lacking in context. The Outlander had just engaged Chained Vaylin and was entirely focused on her. Senya leaped down and blasted them with their defences down, sending them flying. She did not break through their defences or knock them away when they were combat ready. Not to mention pushing someone is virtually meaningless as a display of parity or superiority, especially under those circumstances.

COMBAT PROWESS

NOTE: I hold Mace Windu in very high REGARD. This does not suggest that Mace never had a peer in dueling ability.

I shall explain to you HOW Windu defeated Palpatine in a duel in the latter's office.

It is clearly established that Palpatine is above the pay grade of some of the respected Jedi Masters of the Order in their time; they are removed from the scene in short order. This is what happens when much of your skillset is built upon combating droids and the sort.

Windu is the most talented of the bunch; he is INNOVATIVE on top. He refined his dueling skills with VAAPAD and was not afraid to draw strength from the dark side to complement it - a prerequisite of VAAPAD in order for it to be effective. This is something that Jedi Master Sora Bulq was unable to do and Count Dooku noticed as much. Therefore, Windu became a very effective duelist.

Windu was able to exchange blows with Palpatine by sinking into VAAPAD which augmented him to the level of Palpatine in the process since Windu was drawing strength from the dark side in the process and the source of this was Palpatine himself (superconducting loop). However, this was a stalemate, and Windu had another talent up his sleeve - his ability to see SHATTERPOINTS.

Windu saw two SHATTERPOINTS:

1. Office window ledge
2. Anakin Skywalker

Windu realized that Palpatine will loose his footing on the office window ledge and therefore leapt towards it, shattering the window before. Palpatine's error of judgement in this case was that he should have Force-pushed Windu off the office window at this point but he decided to tag along and lost his footing on the ledge of the window, and therefore, end up disarmed at the hands of Windu.

The next SHATTERPOINT proved FALLIBLE however, and Windu lost his life due to it.

Now keep in mind the fact that it is not necessary for Windu to defeat/disarm Palpatine in every duel and in every situation. Windu's chances depend upon SHATTERPOINTS which he may or may not be able to see in each case.

Therefore, people should not assume that Windu is better than Palpatine BY DEFAULT.

Secondly, what if Windu is contending with an opponent other than Palpatine? Windu will not AUTOMATICALLY showcase performance on the level he could against Palpatine in this case. His effectiveness is likely to vary from opponent to opponent depending upon their respective strengths and weaknesses. Mother Talzin was able to exchange blows with Windu as well for instance - I am sure that she isn't BESTEST GREATEST DUELIST EVA

The aforementioned contention is further apparent from the fact that Senya managed to disarm Vaylin after a prolonged exchange of blows with each other in their first duel, but Vaylin was able to achieve stalemate with Senya in their next duel which was just as fierce. In the second duel, Vaylin attempted to impale Senya with her lightsaber throw but it ended up slicing through a wrecked starship and its hyperdrive by extension. Hyperdrive explosion can ATOMIZE living beings caught in its blast but Vaylin was able to shield herself and her mother from the resultant blast - a measure of her incredible abilities.

Perhaps you do not realize that Senya might be the most skilled duelist of the Eternal Empire? I am not sure but this seems to be the case.

CONTEXT and SCALING

The Outlander could be Hero of Tython whose dueling skills are like second-to-none among all Jedi and Sith; Hero of Tython outdueled Lord Praven who established himself among the greatest of the Sith Warriors during the course of the Great Galactic War and outdueled Jedi Master Usma inside the Jedi Temple during the course of Sacking of Courscant who in turn was/is counted among the most skilled swordsmen produced by the Jedi Order. There is a SCALING CHAIN apparent in this matter. The original Emperor's Wrath was an EXPERT swordsman centuries before he met Hero of Tython and had witnessed both Meetra and Revan in combat situations. The original Emperor's Wrath is credited for assassinating over 1100 Jedi and Sith in PEACE TIME who were perceived as a THREAT by Tenebrae (The Sith Emperor) himself and marked for assassination - he might have killed many more in the Great Galactic War as well. Even members of the Dark Council had second thoughts while taking their chances with him.

The original Emperor's Wrath could see shatterpoints given his level of exposure and experience through centuries:

He possesses an uncanny ability to analyze those around him to discover their weaknesses, and use that knowledge to his advantage.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Holonet)

However, he did not see one in Hero of Tython when exchanging blows with him, and declared him the Jedi's FINEST.

But no matter which class you pick, Arcann established his superiority over The Outlander and this is not a coincidence. This is OBVIOUSLY due to a combination of his prowess with a lightsaber as well as his remarkable command of the Force; these two aspects are intertwined.

Vaylin was able to stalemate Arcann in a fierce duel; in-fact, Vaylin was deemed capable of killing Arcann by The Outlander.

Arcann; Vaylin; Senya = these are TOP-TIER in dueling ability. Probably Thexan as well since Tenebrae (Valkorion) chose him over Arcann to lead the Knights of Zakuul in battles against the Jedi and the Sith.

Senya is evidently capable of out-dueling multiple Jedi at a time - skilled ones to begin with. This is something you may expect from a TOP TIER duelist only. Fighting somebody SOLO is one thing but fighting a GROUP of relatively inferior Force-users can still be a very stressful experience and the odds of getting struck down become high accordingly.



There are tales and examples of a bunch of weak Sith uniting and overthrowing a much powerful Sith Lord; Darth Bane noted this problem before establishing the Rule of Two.

GRAVESTONE

The Outlander was one of the strongest Force-users of the time. How much time do you think does it take one to recover from the effects of carbonite freezing? Several years? This is ridiculous assumption.

Revan endured several years of torture at the hands of Darth Nyriss and Lord Scourge, and recovered in a short time after his release. He was subjected to heavy dosage of drugs, poisons, and what not. Lord Scourge wasn't giving him VIP treatment all along, mind you. He had broken and/or killed many in his torturing sessions before.

Revan was also able to recover from EXTENSIVE INJURIES he had suffered at the hands of Tenebrae (The Sith Emperor) in a battle between the two, getting up on his feet in minutes and being able to fight once more.

The CHAPTERS of the story content involving The Outlander do not tell us much about how much time has passed between each sequence of events. It is obvious that The Outlander had ample time to recover and fight effectively by the time he had reached Gravestone.

If I take your assumption at face value that both The Outlander and Sith Lord Lana Beniko were COMPROMISED while LIFTING the deeply entrenched Gravestone from many meters beneath the soil (a substantially more stressful TASK than LIFTING a massive starship from above the surface; try pulling a well-entrenched object of considerable size from beneath the surface and you will understand), then this actually REINFORCE my contention that Senya made this TASK possible for them and her contribution would be significant in the process. 

Senya wasn't FRESH at the time either. She was fighting alongside The Outlander and Lana to defeat incoming waves of droids and even Knights of Zakuul. Although, Tenebrae (Valkorion)'s intervention cannot be ruled out when the SHIT got real.

Below is a demonstration of raw power from Windu when he is really concentrating:



Shall I give you an idea how massive the Gravestone is in comparison? 

Following starship:





- is bigger than the AT-TE (shorter in length but twice as wide; more bulk).

and it looks small when compared to the hanger of the Gravestone:



Several AT-TE could be packed in that hanger.

And this hanger is a small part of the Gravestone:





The Middle section is about 50 stories tall. The front section is about 100 stories tall with extensions.

NOW; I am not sure how much each of the Force-user was contributing to LIFTING the Gravestone from beneath the soil. However, my take is that this would take much more from each Force-user than merely pushing an AT-TE from the cliff.

Senya throwing The Outlander afar from Vaylin

"Go. This is a family matter." - Senya

Another attempt at LOW-BALLING Senya from you. This is WRONG on so many levels.

The Outlander was in a ready-to-engage position while facing Vaylin, and the two had ignited their lightsabers as well. Both will have their PASSIVE barriers up by now.

Senya suddenly arrived at the scene however, and send The Outlander packing across the hall with relative ease. This is certainly well within her capability given the fact that she would have made a significant contribution to LIFTING the Gravestone from many meters below the soil while aiding The Outlander and Lana:





If I take your assumption at face value that both The Outlander and Sith Lord Lana Beniko were COMPROMISED while LIFTING the deeply entrenched Gravestone from many meters beneath the soil (a substantially more stressful TASK than LIFTING a massive starship from above the surface; try pulling a well-entrenched object of considerable size from beneath the surface and you will understand), then this actually REINFORCE my contention that Senya made this TASK possible for them and her contribution would be significant in the process. 

Senya could do that Windu as well - nothing far-fetched here.

NOTE: Senya is not one of my favorites actually; I like Windu better - much better. This should not cloud my judgement however. And yours too.

Mace destroys.