★ Top Fifteen Tournament #14 - Darth Caedus

MasterCilghal wrote:

EmperorCaedus wrote:For those voting Caedus or Arcann, you'd not only have to argue that their power rivals that of base Kueller who is already "invincible" to a near Vong War Luke and Leia, 

This isn’t true though. The new Rebellion takes place in 17 ABY, which is about 8 years before the start of the Vong war. Luke is no doubt extremely powerful at this point in time, but he’s certainly nowhere near his Vong war incarnation, considering the rate at which his power in the force grows. I wouldn’t put it past that iteration of Luke to obliterate Kueller in an actual fight.

Fair. The original statement was more just saying that he is far beyond his notable iterations including Dark Empire, Jedi Academy, and Black Fleet Crisis iterations as of 17 ABY, not that NR Luke is akin to Vong-war Luke in power.

EmperorCaedus wrote:

Decaf_Beverages wrote:Kinda questioning how people can view Kueller as being above Kun when he has an explicit statement that removes the possibility of him being below Kueller

As of mid-novel, yes. Kueller grows astronomically after that point, though.

Please don't leave out the fact that this was merely Kun's spirit. Exar Kun in his living state is 'astronomically' more powerful than his spirit was, given the fact the Jedi wall of light totally extinguished his power, he was hence forced to subsist off of the focal points lest his spirit be totally destroyed and was driven half insane for 4,000 years.

So yeah, Kueller being pre-prime isn't exactly the best shout to make in reply to the Exar Kun quote.

I vote Dark Apprentice Galen Marek, no case required.

EmperorCaedus wrote:

Decaf_Beverages wrote:Kinda questioning how people can view Kueller as being above Kun when he has an explicit statement that removes the possibility of him being below Kueller

As of mid-novel, yes. Kueller grows astronomically after that point, though.

Also dead, shitghost Kun, who by multiple sources and basic logic given he had to recharge power after rag-dolling padawans was at a minimal level of strength

LadyKulvax wrote:Please don't leave out the fact that this was merely Kun's spirit. Exar Kun in his living state is 'astronomically' more powerful than his spirit was, given the fact the Jedi wall of light totally extinguished his power, he was hence forced to subsist off of the focal points lest his spirit be totally destroyed and was driven half insane for 4,000 years.

So yeah, Kueller being pre-prime isn't exactly the best shout to make in reply to the Exar Kun quote.

Please don't leave out the fact that this was merely Kueller pre-prime. Kueller in his prime state is 'astronomically' more powerful than in mid-novel, given the fact Kueller's growth when feeding on Luke's rage-amp made him "suddenly stronger," "stronger. Much stronger," "Luke was making him stronger," "was making the thing even stronger," "Kueller got stronger," "Kueller got stronger still," in just a couple lines. This coupled with the fact that beforehand, Mara claims that due to the many deaths of the bombings, this caused Kueller to "build strength," "absorb the dark side like a droid hooked up to a power cable," and "become stronger than the Emperor ever was, and quicker.” 

So yea, please tell me how Kun still caps Kueller with real quantification, rather than baseless assumptions that Kun being weak outweighs Kueller's growth.

This is for you too @Decaf_Beverages

Never thought I'd see the day where people think Caedus scales above Vader to a greater degree than Gethzerion.

EmperorCaedus wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:Please don't leave out the fact that this was merely Kun's spirit. Exar Kun in his living state is 'astronomically' more powerful than his spirit was, given the fact the Jedi wall of light totally extinguished his power, he was hence forced to subsist off of the focal points lest his spirit be totally destroyed and was driven half insane for 4,000 years.

So yeah, Kueller being pre-prime isn't exactly the best shout to make in reply to the Exar Kun quote.

Please don't leave out the fact that this was merely Kueller pre-prime. Kueller in his prime state is 'astronomically' more powerful than in mid-novel, given the fact Kueller's growth when feeding on Luke's rage-amp made him "suddenly stronger," "stronger. Much stronger," "Luke was making him stronger," "was making the thing even stronger," "Kueller got stronger," "Kueller got stronger still," in just a couple lines. This coupled with the fact that beforehand, Mara claims that due to the many deaths of the bombings, this caused Kueller to "build strength," "absorb the dark side like a droid hooked up to a power cable," and "become stronger than the Emperor ever was, and quicker.” 

So yea, please tell me how Kun still caps Kueller with real quantification, rather than baseless assumptions that Kun being weak outweighs Kueller's growth.

This is for you too @Decaf_Beverages

Please inform us all as to how it is a baseless assumption that Kun's power was almost completely 'extinguished' and then was driven 'half-mad' in a perpetual state of slumber imposed upon him for 4,000 years. I'd hazard to guess that literally nearly all of Kun's power is greater than 'astronomical' power growth on Kueller's part. Like let's say something ridiculous such as Kueller's power doubled, demonstratably not true but let's go with it anyway.

How does that compare to literally losing power to the degree that you go from being a Sheev-like being who can exist as a spirit and traverse the stars through sheer power and will to needing to draw constantly off of a focal point to prevent from being completely dissipated and even then not even having the power to stay awake?

The problem is that I can prove, as I have done so to you before, that Exar Kun surpassed ROTJ Palpatine in power. Whereas you are stuck trying to do this snakes and ladders parlor trick to prove Kueller actually achieved, nevermind surpassed, the power of 'Palpatine in the early days'.

Might change my mind again but after reading those cases for Caedus, I'm throwing my vote behind him.

BoD wrote:Might change my mind again but after reading those cases for Caedus, I'm throwing my vote behind him.

Vote Kun. You know you want to. Don't vote for Darth Cuckdus

Decaf_Beverages wrote:

BoD wrote:Might change my mind again but after reading those cases for Caedus, I'm throwing my vote behind him.

Vote Kun. You know you want to. Don't vote for Darth Cuckdus

I'll see what's presented. I'm very 50-50 right now.

As supplementary to my case on the previous page, Exar Kun's comparisons to Palpatine aren't limited to two quotes. Beyond this we have the following quote:

Jedi Academy Vol.3: Champions of the Force wrote:If Kyp could face this final test, Luke would know he'd passed through the fire of his testing-tempered by forces as dire and powerful as those Luke himself had endured.

Supported by this:

New Rebellion wrote:The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn't felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor. Luke had never had a student that powerful, of that he was certain.

New Rebellion wrote:She [Leia] wished she had the same certainty. This Kueller had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years. Except Exar Kun, and he had been a spirit. Kueller was alive.

If you doubt her claims, Leia's sensory power is so strong that as far back as Dark Empire she could sense Palpatine despite the Emperor actively trying to cloak his presence:

Empire's End Audio Drama wrote:"What was that?"

"What was what?"

"Don't you feel it? He is near... I feel his dark side power."

"What do you mean who? There aren't any ships around here."

"Your highness, the sensors aren't picking up anything -"

"The Emperor is here. He wants us... he wants our children!"

...

"Yes... yes! Excellent! She is strong to have sensed my presence, but still they are blind!"

Then we have demonstrated proof of Exar Kun's power being greater than that of Return of the Jedi Emperor Palpatine's:

Dark Empire Endnotes wrote:The key to Luke's turning is the moment when he and Leia realize the Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form, but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space, tearing apart everything in the vicinity, human and machine.

Specter of the Past wrote:There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

Simply put, Luke states that the Reborn Emperor having become a dark side nexus makes him too powerful for Luke to possibly defeat. However, it is confirmed that Exar Kun like Reborn Palpatine was also a dark side nexus. Naturally leading us to the conclusion that Exar Kun was more powerful than Emperor Palpatine as of the Battle of Endor.

Again, the quotes stating that Darth Sidious was most powerful are almost all either in-universe or non-historical or worse are from sources that do not cover broader Legends sources. None of these can retcon The Official Star Wars Fact File or The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia nor the supporting sources on the matter.

The picture is made very clear, Exar Kun is within the tier of the higher incarnations of Darth Sidious.

If we're propping up Darth Caedus:

Viun Gaalan "might have been a match" for Kyp Durron in combat, yet Gaalan was inferior to Ivaar Workan as Workan unlike Gaalan was among the seven High Lords, a position earned through raw power:

Ascension wrote:Although the attractive, graying human male had been a Lord for many years, he was new to his rank of High Lord. Taalon's untimely demise had paved the way for Workan's promotion. Vol had enjoyed watching Workan step into the role as if he had been born to it. While Sith truly trusted no one but themselves and the Force, Vol nonetheless regarded Workan among those who fell on the side of less likely to betray him.

Sashal, Ascension wrote:"While the humans of the Lost Tribe and the Keshiri are different races, no one has ever been excluded from achieving high rank if she can prove herself worthy. You yourself worked with Sarasu Taalon. It is merit, not genetics, that enables one to rise or fall in our culture."

Workan admits vast inferiority to Grand Lord Vol:

Ascension wrote:But if she knew the Sith were here on Coruscant-

No. If something happened and his Master found that Workan had not warned him, Workan would not live long enough to draw breath to apologize. It had to be now.

However Kyp Durron at that time, per his own admission, was post-prime due to his mental state, and likely would've been even moreso by the time of the Gaalan comparison:

Legacy of the Force: Exile wrote:When I was still a teenager, I was able to reach into the gravity well of a gas giant and pull a spacecraft out of it. That's something that not many Masters could accomplish. I could do it because I was strong in the Force ... and because I had absolute faith in my right, my need to use that craft for a specific purpose. But I doubt I could do it today. I'm no weaker in the Force, and I'm a lot more skilled... but today I'd know that my intended purpose was not a good one, and this knowledge would deny me the focus I needed then to perform that task. So was I a Master then, or am I a Master now?"

It's further confirmed that Exar Kun had augmented Kyp Durron's power to the point that Kyp could 'barely contain' his power and is stated to be at full power:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:Over a number of weeks, Kun slowly bends Kyp to his will, and begins to augment his power.

Dark Apprentice wrote:Kyp felt his skin tingling with barely contained power,

Dark Apprentice wrote:Against the full might of Kyp Durron

Exar Kun in numerous quotes, was more powerful than Kyp Durron:

Dark Apprentice wrote:His best students were going sour, getting impatient, trying to push the limits of their abilities. But he had sensed a greater, deeper menace that vibrated within the very stones of the Great Temple itself. . . evil, and well hidden.

I, Jedi wrote:"And who will stop me?" I hesitated because Kyp's words seemed to echo within themselves, we were not alone, which meant Kyp's mentor had come to aid his apprentice.

"I will, if you make it necessary." An ancient sneer of contempt twisted Kyp's features.

"Puny Jedi, you are of no concern to me." Even though I had braced myself for another attack, it did no good. Kyp's previous blows were like light breezes compared to this full-on gale. I slammed back into the wall with teeth rattling-impact.

Dark Apprentice wrote:He searched, sending his thoughts like a probe deep into the storm systems of the gas giant. Behind him, Kyp felt the black-ice power of Exar Kun arise, tapping into him and reinforcing his abilities. His own feeble exploratory touch suddenly plunged forward like a blaster bolt.

It is further confirmed that mid-novel Kueller was more powerful than any student Luke had ever had, including Kyp Durron:

New Rebellion wrote:The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn’t felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor. Luke had never had a student that powerful, of that he was certain. Whoever it was became powerful after he had left the academy.

Yet Exar Kun's spirit was more powerful than Kueller:

New Rebellion wrote:This Kueller had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years. Except Exar Kun, and he had been a spirit. Kueller was alive. He was using these deaths to replenish his own well of hatred. The dark side ate people from within, but while it did so, it gave them much too much power. He appeared to have more power than she had. More power than Luke.

The spirit of Exar Kun is however, far less powerful than his living prime as his power was annihilated by a Jedi Wall of Light:



This results in him requiring to draw on the temple focal points to prevent himself from being pulled into the void in such a weak state:

Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Exar Kun-who didn't technically die so much as merge with the dark side and retain his identity-resisted the dissolution of his spirit by drawing on the remarkable focusing energies of the Massassi temples on Yavin 4.

And he's further stated to be nigh-insane by Jedi Academy:

The New Essential Guide to Characters wrote:For four thousand years he remained there, driven half mad by the unbearable isolation.

We further have confirmation that Exar Kun required restoring his lost power to resurrect, and that this entailed draining the power of the entire Jedi Academy:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:Eagerly but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, probing for weaknesses and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy. For a time, he is able to subside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshippers if he is to grow more active. With a nucleus of followers to provide him energy-providing anger and fear, Kun will have enough power to escape his exile and take on human form.

Jedi vs. Sith: Essential Guide to the Force wrote:Exar Kun corrupted Luke’s most powerful student, Kyp Durron, and attempted to resurrect himself by draining power from Luke and the other trainees.

Simply put Exar Kun in life is far, far more powerful than as a spirit who already is much more powerful than DS Kyp Durron, a stronger incarnation than the one compared to Viun Gaalan.

Exar Kun >>> Spirit Kun >> Kyp Durron > FOTJ Durron ~ Viun Gaalan < Ivaar Workan << Darish Vol

Voting for Kun

Yeah, not seeing how Kun is better here. Sticking with Caedus.

Arcann. Vastly better feats and scaling than anything presented in the thread so far.

Throw me down for Caedus.

Switching to Tenebrous.

Any evidence for Caedus > Tenebrous?

Bro I respect the Dreadnaughts Of Rendili Plo Koon pic

My vote goes to Darth Caedus.

@MeatPants

Reasoning for Tenebrous being>Caedus?

With everything that has been said, I feel Inclined to chime in and at least make the point that Gethzerion is > everyone listed here so far. 

But, due to the fact that the populace is sworn against her because you all like bland, unattractive looking characters like Caedus, il Vote him

I would've voted for Geth, but that only makes 2 of us.

Geistalt wrote:I would've voted for Geth, but that only makes 2 of us.

We could pull the comeback of the tourney and get geth in xD

DARTH CAEDUS AND ARCANN ARE IN THE RUNNING FOR #14.

All votes for Darth Caedus (15) and Arcann (5) will stay. Anyone who hasn't voted or voted for another may choose between the two. Voting ends in 48 hours.

Spoiler:

PLEASE CHANGE YOUR VOTE:

@Gianfi
@CuckedCurry
@The G Canon Purist
@LadyKulvax
@Meatpants
@lorenzo.r.2nd
@Foxtrot Jay 16
@Trayus Marauder

Caedus.