Qui Gon vs Traya

Meatpants wrote:Using deleted cutscenes only goes so far. Anyway, the comparison is flawed. He didn't resist the attack, he got ragdolled by Nihilus.

Eh, based on what I can see Sion initially resisted the attack but was later overwhelmed, not to mention he survived his drain, which is rather rare. As for the cutscenes, I am allowed to use them since they were only deleted due to Lucasfilm urging for an early release, otherwise they would have been put there.

As for the cutscenes, I am allowed to use them since they were only deleted due to Lucasfilm urging for an early release, otherwise they would have been put there.

You don't have the authority to determine what was and wasn't intended for release. You can't know what specific bits would have been included/changed/edited if they had more time.

Eh, based on what I can see Sion initially resisted the attack but was later overwhelmed, not to mention he survived his drain, which is rather rare.

Nope.



Sion is in the "incapacitated" animation the whole time. Arguing that Sion survived the drain means nothing either. He's straight up immobilised and ragdolled. He started the fight, then realised he was too weak after Nihilus' display. That's the end of it. Both Traya AND Nihilus can ragdoll.

Traya, good fight

The only reason I would consider siding with Traya is if her Drain was not counterable and of sufficient potency to down Jinn before he can reach her.

Without Drain, I'm not convinced Traya can keep the distance between herself and Jinn - once it enters melee range, it's not long before Jinn cuts her down.

Yeah, Jinn takes sabers, but I'm not convinced he can resist the drain as of this time.

mastercilghal wrote:Not to mention that Trayus academy Traya is confirmed to be more powerful  than Nihilus:


Under normal circumstances she should still be in the same tier as he is, Nihilus being one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history. She’s insane, it’s unquestionable. Furthermore the description in the guide points to the exile defeating her with great difficulty.

Well, let's think about this.

First off, this entry comes way before any entry into Nihilus or Sion. This means we don't have any established power from either man at this stage in the book. The bio itself certainly doesn't delve into their power either, so why would we assume Traya being more powerful than them is supposed to mean anything? They are literally "names" at this stage in the encyclopedia for anyone reading it. They never state how hard it is to defeat them, nor why it's impressive; so when we get "although" it means nothing since they don't establish Nihilus/Sion in this bio. This is assuming that you would read it in that order, but it's still important to note. Now what would be more important, you ask?

Being more powerful than the character the bio is about of course - The Exile. The bio is establishing the Exile and, building connections between her and Traya. You make note that Nihilus immediately precludes that sentence, but that's not true is it? "Her teacher" comes before that statement. So in the context of that structure, it's indicating that Meetra is taking on her teacher, and the teacher is still more powerful. This makes a lot more sense than assuming some throwaway names [in context] are relevant, no? This is the full thought:
"...before confronting her teacher[Traya]. Although Traya was more powerful, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat."

Next. It's showing the Exile overcoming a more powerful opponent than her. It carries more impact than Exile beating someone "more powerful than blank and blank." She is directly overcoming her teacher, who is still more powerful than her. This sentence then stands on its own without any other characters.
"Although Traya was more powerful [COMMA] the Exile managed to defeat her in combat."  - This is all one contained thought explaining the fight.

It was very heroic of The Exile to defeat her old teacher who was still more powerful than her

vs

Exile beat her old teacher who was more powerful than other people who she beat - with no emphasis on them in this particular bio


Does this make sense? I hate to be verbose about something I feel is self-explanatory, but I want you to realize it's highly unlikely to be your interpretation.

mastercilghal wrote: Also consider that Trayus academy amped Kreia is the toughest opponent in the game plus the scaling AP has presented and it makes all the more clear. TA Traya>Nihilus

Naturally. The Nihilus fight was barely a fight in canon. Traya didn't have anything to exploit in comparison. I will upload the full image because it's relevant to later points.
*The end is immediately important here.

mastercilghal wrote:
My point still stands though. Sion resisted an attack from Nihilus but was ragdolled with clear ease by TA amped Traya. Under normal circumstances, I agree that Nihilus is superior (hence her statements that hype him, or should I say it, up) but while empowered all evidence points towards her being superior by an indeterminate margin.

mastercilghal wrote:
Eh, based on what I can see Sion initially resisted the attack but was later overwhelmed, not to mention he survived his drain, which is rather rare. As for the cutscenes, I am allowed to use them since they were only deleted due to Lucasfilm urging for an early release, otherwise they would have been put there.

Sion was rag-dolled by both. Nihilus let up his attack and, that is why Sion was allowed to persist. He literally turns his back on him. That's not a point in Traya's favor considering the supreme ease Nihilus did this, as MP pointed out. At worst, this creates parity between two similar things.

mastercilghal wrote:
You forget that the exile underwent a massive power growth throughout the game due to her restoring her lost connection to the force, so it is likely the version of Surik Nihilus faced is less strong than the one Traya faced. As for the statement, fair enough, but i interpret it the other way, based especially on the Sion scaling.

Let's talk about growth here.

Nihilus completely overpowers Traya with one force push who was standing at the epicenter of the Trayus Core for an undetermined amount of time. Nihilus walks in and blasts her once to the point where she was stunned and could barely reach for her saber. One push left her vulnerable enough for Sion to overpower her. Nihilus drains her power. Nihilus then drains an entire planet filled with force sensitives and dozens of Jedi - including 3 of the top 3 Jedi at the time.

In contrast, Kreia spends almost the entire game regaining her connection to the force. That's not saying she couldn't grow more powerful than she once was,  but it's very doubtful that she grew to a point beyond Nihilus. So yes, it's very possible Surik was more powerful than when she faced Nihilus - she did absorb the dead from Malchor after all - but considering the almost non-battle Surik had with Nihilus, it's not that important to note. Surik was more powerful, but we don't have any conditions in place to understand why that would apply to Kreia over Nihilus. You can't build off her growth because you lack fundamental connections. Kreia starts at almost square one while Nihilus keeps getting more powerful (and off-panel planets).

To simplify:

• Nihilus just entering Trayus Core > Traya standing in the center for a presumably lengthy period of time
  
• Nihilus drains her power
  
• Nihilus drains an entire planet
  
• Nihilus drains tons of Jedi/Jedi Masters
  
• Traya regains her connection to the force
  
• Traya drains Jedi Masters
  

Who do you think is going to grow stronger at the end?







Though, to think she scales about Nihilus based off one line is weird. How do you apply that to threads?

To summarize Nihilus' feats:

• Nihilus survives the Mass Shadow Generator and drains the only other survivor on Malachor
  
• Nihilus ragdolls Traya and Sion (per your use)
  
• Nihilus razes an entire fleet from a gravity well, including an ISD sized ship with the force
  
• Nihilus keeps this derelict ship spaceworthy
  
• Nihilus drains an entire planet and kills the force sensitives and Jedi/Masters
  
• Nihilus loses to Exile because of her nature in the force
  

That's about it. Where do you place or limit someone when that's almost everything he's done? Does that one line allow us to apply all of his feats to Traya? He's not exactly someone you can scale off of that game and, apply his feats to Traya based on one line. She has nothing to compare to his feats, and his only limitation in-game is Exile's nature and possibly his connection to Visas. But yes, Traya wins because she fights Jinn on the Trayus Core and this allows her to lift ISD sized objects and drain planets. Even if the line had stated what you want it to state, I think it's pretty clear she was not portrayed anywhere near Nihilus' level of power.


I'm not saying who wins, but I think it clear Traya doesn't win because of anything Nihilus did or didn't do.

The Ravager is 1200 meters long, not 1600, but otherwise, great post. Here are some addendums to Nihilus' feats I'd like to make though:

• Nihilus is noted by Kreia and the KotORCG to have drained multiple planets, not just Katarr.
  
• The Miraluka are all Force-sensitive, as you noted, and Nihilus killed millions of them per the SWTOR Codex and Encyclopedia
  
• TCSWE states that Nihilus "blasted worlds into ruin" before consuming them, which used to be interpreted as orbital bombardment. However, the script for the game states Nihilus used a dark side cloud to decimate the surface of the planet and feeding on the death as it happened, and we see this cloud in the comic's depiction of the scene. Furthermore, Visas states the devastation of Katarr did not occur by way of orbital bombardment, and the Exile states that no fleet could bomb the surface. So Nihilus used a cloud of dark side energy that's more devastating than orbital bombardment to ruin the surfaces of multiple planets.
  

Nihilus is on another level compared to Traya.

@QuorianDebatist thank you for your post. You have convinced me. However what you call self-explainatory isn’t the same for me I fear. English is not my main language, let alone its grammar.

Qui-Gon flexes and Traya’s knees give way, leading to intercourse and a Jinn victory.

I never loved you as much as I do now

What a lovely image.

Yeah Traya isn't comparable to Nihilus.

Also:

Qui-Gon flexes and Traya’s knees give way, leading to intercourse and a Jinn victory.

Lmao.

Azronger wrote:The Ravager is 1200 meters long, not 1600, but otherwise, great post. Here are some addendums to Nihilus' feats I'd like to make though:

• Nihilus is noted by Kreia and the KotORCG to have drained multiple planets, not just Katarr.
  
• The Miraluka are all Force-sensitive, as you noted, and Nihilus killed millions of them per the SWTOR Codex and Encyclopedia
  
• TCSWE states that Nihilus "blasted worlds into ruin" before consuming them, which used to be interpreted as orbital bombardment. However, the script for the game states Nihilus used a dark side cloud to decimate the surface of the planet and feeding on the death as it happened, and we see this cloud in the comic's depiction of the scene. Furthermore, Visas states the devastation of Katarr did not occur by way of orbital bombardment, and the Exile states that no fleet could bomb the surface. So Nihilus used a cloud of dark side energy that's more devastating than orbital bombardment to ruin the surfaces of multiple planets.
  

Nihilus is on another level compared to Traya.

True, that's my mistake. Though I'm kind of glad I didn't remember it correctly because it allowed me to find something else. Also glad you brought up the context to his other feats. I didn't want to go full wank, but I did want to discuss him a little to show why Traya can't build off him.

Anyway

So, a Centurion class ship has a cargo capacity of 32000 tons. It's fair to say the ship weighs well beyond what it can safely carry in its small (in comparison) cargo/boarding areas.






A 752m Acclamator ship has 11250 ton capacity.






However, once it becomes a cargo ship as noted in that first pic, its capacity jumps to 502 212 tons by only sacrificing weaponry for more cargo capacity.




This implies the ship was well in excess of that weight, as this is only cargo capacity. I know this still involves speculation, and other sites have "figured out" specific weights - a 900m Victory class Star Destroyer is over 1 million tons per estimates - but a baseline of at least 502 212 tons for a vastly smaller ship is nothing to sneeze at if Nihilus was lifting just this. We're probably looking at well over double that weight considering the sheer volume the ship [Acclamator] encompasses compared to what fits in it, but we'll play it safe. Very comic book-like in any case just off sheer weight alone, let alone the specifics.

And on that note, it seems like they were ripping off Galactus The Devourer when they wrote Nihilus. That's the story where Galactus became addicted to pure life energy and was only feeding on life while leaving the planets unmolested. It drove him crazy, and led to his death as it never fully satiated him. A similar deal with Nihilus. Which, if that's the inspiration, it's no wonder he seems so out of place in the game and so far beyond Traya. And no wonder Avellone tries to backtrack out of the character when he realizes his mistake. He doesn't know what to do with him, and neither do I. It wasn't like Nihilus appeared in an exaggerated media while everyone appeared in a toned down form. He was the exaggerated media.

All I know for sure is he would annihilate every main character in KOTOR 2 at the same time save the Force Wound kryptonite.

mastercilghal wrote:@QuorianDebatist thank you for your post. You have convinced me. However what you call self-explainatory isn’t the same for me I fear. English is not my main language, let alone its grammar.

No offense intended, and I forgot about English being a second language for you. It's not apparent like some are.

It's all good.

I would like to point out that Traya believed Surik to be capable of lifting a ship to escape Malachor as Nihilus did. I'm not sure the TK feat places him as high as maybe it should.

SithArchaeologist wrote:I would like to point out that Traya believed Surik to be capable of lifting a ship to escape Malachor as Nihilus did. I'm not sure the TK feat places him as high as maybe it should.

There were many ships orbiting Malachor. One of the first we see the scale of was comparable to the Ebon Hawk in size.



But "a ship" is not a 1200m ship, and we can't liken it to that sheer scale with more reasonable options available. If we were, Kreia's first suggestion for merely getting off the planet would be to call down the absolute biggest ship in orbit and then use that as a means to escape.

"Your Ebon Hawk can't fly off the planet? Why not replace your stealthy spacecraft with one 100 times the size?"

This is also under the assumption that ships of that size were still in orbit after Nihilus made a fleet out of derelict ships. Why would he leave remaining space-worthy 1200m ships when his ship... isn't even space-worthy in the first place?


And no, it isn't just the TK feat that's the issue. It's the one I chose to focus on however. Nihilus' big claim to fame is Katarr, but it doesn't hurt that his other feats are also monstrous. It doesn't hurt that we don't even get an indication of his limits as well. That's not a no-limits fallacy like "a ship" actually meaning "as big as you can get," that's just stating facts. Everything Nihilus did was done with an unknown degree of exertion. Nihilus just did it because he could, not to test his limits or push himself. So yes, even if Meetra could call down a Centurion class ship out of nowhere, that doesn't mean Nihilus loses a feat. He still did it, and Meetra doing something far in excess of what she's shown the rest of the game doesn't take away accomplishments.

1.I have no idea why people think the remade cutscene of the cut content is anywhere near as relevant as the fully canonical script. Which, by the way, describes the fight:

The Sith Lords Script wrote:Nihilus turns, dark wave energy exploding from him, blasting Sion back, as supports smash down around him. It would be awesome if Sith soldiers are hurled about by Nihilus' power, or are disintegrated as he attacks Sion.}

"Now it ends. And the darkness comes."

[Gameplay Programmer: Note that this cut scene is different, depending on whether the player is male or female - if female, Sion's tone changes.]

[Gameplay Programmer: Sion stalks off, disgusted.]

What makes it so impressive for Traya that Sion isn't killed by Nihilus and is even capable of talking. Is that Darth Sion on Malachor V is specifically stated to be vastly more powerful and durable. Yet Traya can easily, without gesture, one-shot or choke out Sion.

2.Given that the Exile, who is in an absolutely horrific state at this point, beats Traya at her most powerful. A Traya who can anticipate everything Surik does and has prepared her power throughout the entire time Surik was fighting through an elite legion of the mythos' deadliest Sith and Sion himself. It should hardly be surprising that she can pull off a single Malachor V TK feat.

LadyKulvax wrote:What makes it so impressive for Traya that Sion isn't killed by Nihilus and is even capable of talking. Is that Darth Sion on Malachor V is specifically stated to be vastly more powerful and durable. Yet Traya can easily, without gesture, one-shot or choke out Sion.

The same Traya who's standing at the epicenter of one of the Dark Side's strongest nexus'?

LadyKulvax wrote:2.Given that the Exile, who is in an absolutely horrific state at this point, beats Traya at her most powerful. A Traya who can anticipate everything Surik does and has prepared her power throughout the entire time Surik was fighting through an elite legion of the mythos' deadliest Sith and Sion himself. It should hardly be surprising that she can pull off a single Malachor V TK feat.

Are you referring to Nihilus pulling ships from the surface? If so, I don't necessarily subscribe to that specific line of scaling.

1.Yeah, but so is Sion? They both get amped. Now, I'm not suggesting Traya > Nihilus.

2.No, it was a reply to Sarch.

LadyKulvax wrote:1.Yeah, but so is Sion? They both get amped. Now, I'm not suggesting Traya > Nihilus.

The amp affects them both, so what's so impressive about Traya ragdolling Sion on Malachor compared to any other planet?

Because Malachor Sion is basically invulnerable.

I'm not seeing what difference that makes to someone's ability to ragdoll him. Especially when that person is benefiting from the same amp in power.

I'm saying that Sion on Malachor is far more powerful and harder to kill than the one Nihilus' enraged Force attack couldn't kill. Yet Traya easily could. It's entirely relevant to the Sion vs. Nihilus fight.

You're saying Traya can kill Sion?

I'm saying the feats are viable and impressive, given we know what the upper limits of Sion's durability are. I don't think that Traya is > Height!Nihilus. I do think Malachor!Traya is > hungering, enraged Nihilus.

But again, even off of the Trayus Core, Traya should still one-shot Malachor!Sion but this time she wouldn't be doing it casually without gesturing.

Quorian Debatist wrote:

Azronger wrote:The Ravager is 1200 meters long, not 1600, but otherwise, great post. Here are some addendums to Nihilus' feats I'd like to make though:

• Nihilus is noted by Kreia and the KotORCG to have drained multiple planets, not just Katarr.
  
• The Miraluka are all Force-sensitive, as you noted, and Nihilus killed millions of them per the SWTOR Codex and Encyclopedia
  
• TCSWE states that Nihilus "blasted worlds into ruin" before consuming them, which used to be interpreted as orbital bombardment. However, the script for the game states Nihilus used a dark side cloud to decimate the surface of the planet and feeding on the death as it happened, and we see this cloud in the comic's depiction of the scene. Furthermore, Visas states the devastation of Katarr did not occur by way of orbital bombardment, and the Exile states that no fleet could bomb the surface. So Nihilus used a cloud of dark side energy that's more devastating than orbital bombardment to ruin the surfaces of multiple planets.
  

Nihilus is on another level compared to Traya.

True, that's my mistake. Though I'm kind of glad I didn't remember it correctly because it allowed me to find something else. Also glad you brought up the context to his other feats. I didn't want to go full wank, but I did want to discuss him a little to show why Traya can't build off him.

Anyway

So, a Centurion class ship has a cargo capacity of 32000 tons. It's fair to say the ship weighs well beyond what it can safely carry in its small (in comparison) cargo/boarding areas.






A 752m Acclamator ship has 11250 ton capacity.






However, once it becomes a cargo ship as noted in that first pic, its capacity jumps to 502 212 tons by only sacrificing weaponry for more cargo capacity.




This implies the ship was well in excess of that weight, as this is only cargo capacity. I know this still involves speculation, and other sites have "figured out" specific weights - a 900m Victory class Star Destroyer is over 1 million tons per estimates - but a baseline of at least 502 212 tons for a vastly smaller ship is nothing to sneeze at if Nihilus was lifting just this. We're probably looking at well over double that weight considering the sheer volume the ship [Acclamator] encompasses compared to what fits in it, but we'll play it safe. Very comic book-like in any case just off sheer weight alone, let alone the specifics.

And on that note, it seems like they were ripping off Galactus The Devourer when they wrote Nihilus. That's the story where Galactus became addicted to pure life energy and was only feeding on life while leaving the planets unmolested. It drove him crazy, and led to his death as it never fully satiated him. A similar deal with Nihilus. Which, if that's the inspiration, it's no wonder he seems so out of place in the game and so far beyond Traya. And no wonder Avellone tries to backtrack out of the character when he realizes his mistake. He doesn't know what to do with him, and neither do I. It wasn't like Nihilus appeared in an exaggerated media while everyone appeared in a toned down form. He was the exaggerated media.

All I know for sure is he would annihilate every main character in KOTOR 2 at the same time save the Force Wound kryptonite.

mastercilghal wrote:@QuorianDebatist thank you for your post. You have convinced me. However what you call self-explainatory isn’t the same for me I fear. English is not my main language, let alone its grammar.

No offense intended, and I forgot about English being a second language for you. It's not apparent like some are.

It's all good.

The Force Unleashed states an ISD weighs 1 million tons, but I've also heard the 6-million-ton figure tossed around, although I'm unable to track down the source. The Ravager should definitely be comparable to the ISD though.

Also, I can't verify this, but I recall evidence in the game that the Ravager doesn't have active shields. This would mean Nihilus erected a Force barrier around the entire ship that was durable enough to tank turbolasers as seen during the Battle of Telos. He also might have created an artificial atmosphere and gravity in the ship.

Nihilus definitely one of the most insanely powerful characters in all of Star Wars.