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- SithSauceLevel One
Re: Kit Fisto vs AotC Anakin & AotC Obi-Wan
April 8th 2020, 4:19 pm
@Latham2000 Screenplays are nice but aren't a perfect indicator as they don't necessarily translate 100% to what's onscreen, and as Ziggy pointed out it did look like Dooku had to work a bit for the win against Anakin in the actual film itself.
- Master AzrongerModerator
Re: Kit Fisto vs AotC Anakin & AotC Obi-Wan
April 8th 2020, 4:21 pm
The screenplay (G-canon and second only to the film) also supports Anakin giving Dooku a decent challenge IIRC. As does the adult novelization.
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- Latham2000Level Three
Re: Kit Fisto vs AotC Anakin & AotC Obi-Wan
April 8th 2020, 5:18 pm
@Ziggy
If a junior novel falls under this "chocolate bar" category that you're propogating, then I guess these "chocolate bar" sources must therefore good sources, the RotS junior novel's depiction of Dooku vs Anakin & Obi-Wan for instance is one of the most cited sources by people debating Kenobi, Skywalker and Dooku on the forums and the AotC junior novel has also been one of the most cited sources on the subject on Dooku's fight with Yoda over the years. The junior novel is C Canon just like the senior novels, and Leland Chee has said that he doesn't differentiate senior novels and junior novels, so I don't believe that it should be dismissed on the basis that they were written for kids.
The AotC junior novel describes Dooku as toying with Skywalker, which technically doesn't actually contradict the movie itself because that's the junior novel's explanation for why Anakin lasted so long against Dooku.
That's true, but the RotS novel for example repeatedly contradicts the movie, but it's hailed as one of the most credible sources on the forums.
No I'm not going to argue that the HP movies are the true canon - not that they're even SW related to begin with. Anakin did give Dooku some pause even in the AotC junior novel, right at the start of the fight, but it says he recovered quickly. The junior novel isn't the equivalent of a cereal box and you've not cited Gillard's comments.
It's as chocolatey as it gets.
Still an adaption of the film, which, ahem, is the thing based on and is trying to depict in a novel aimed at kids.
If a junior novel falls under this "chocolate bar" category that you're propogating, then I guess these "chocolate bar" sources must therefore good sources, the RotS junior novel's depiction of Dooku vs Anakin & Obi-Wan for instance is one of the most cited sources by people debating Kenobi, Skywalker and Dooku on the forums and the AotC junior novel has also been one of the most cited sources on the subject on Dooku's fight with Yoda over the years. The junior novel is C Canon just like the senior novels, and Leland Chee has said that he doesn't differentiate senior novels and junior novels, so I don't believe that it should be dismissed on the basis that they were written for kids.
It's third in the line of importance and can be outright ignored in parts where it contradicts the film, the primary canon and medium that all others are based around.
The AotC junior novel describes Dooku as toying with Skywalker, which technically doesn't actually contradict the movie itself because that's the junior novel's explanation for why Anakin lasted so long against Dooku.
Just so you know, someone having access to the screenplay (which still isn't the finished product and is chocked with discrepancies) doesn't preclude a writer from taking creative license with some of the details or plain getting it wrong in others.
That's true, but the RotS novel for example repeatedly contradicts the movie, but it's hailed as one of the most credible sources on the forums.
Or are you going to argue that HP movies are the true canon?
George showed us Dooku toying with Kenobi
He showed us Anakin giving Dooku pause
Gillard reinforces those remarks
The cereal box junior novel not withstanding
No I'm not going to argue that the HP movies are the true canon - not that they're even SW related to begin with. Anakin did give Dooku some pause even in the AotC junior novel, right at the start of the fight, but it says he recovered quickly. The junior novel isn't the equivalent of a cereal box and you've not cited Gillard's comments.
- Ziggy
Re: Kit Fisto vs AotC Anakin & AotC Obi-Wan
April 8th 2020, 11:05 pm
Latham2000 wrote:If a junior novel falls under this "chocolate bar" category that you're propogating
It's chocolatey where it contradicts the clear cut intent of the source material it's meant to depict.
It's chocolatey where it offers a contrarian position that fits poorly into the lore
There is already enough discrepancies sans bickering, the difference is that this source is still a tier below the movies in importance. For sake of clarity, cut it loose.
,then I guess these "chocolate bar" sources must therefore good sources, the RotS junior novel's depiction of Dooku vs Anakin & Obi-Wan for instance is one of the most cited sources by people debating Kenobi, Skywalker and Dooku on the forums and the AotC junior novel has also been one of the most cited sources on the subject on Dooku's fight with Yoda over the years.
They're not completely useless when they compliment a harmonious lore - I.E providing thoughts and monologues of the characters in question - context the films, being films, can't otherwise spell out.
They are even useful when depicting some of the off-screen action. Yoda apparently disarms Palpatine fits the scene. Kit Fisto's severed head bouncing atop the chancellor's desk, not so. It's not hard to find out where the discrepancies lie.
The junior novel is C Canon just like the senior novels, and Leland Chee has said that he doesn't differentiate senior novels and junior novels, so I don't believe that it should be dismissed on the basis that they were written for kids.
Leland would also agree, along with his colleagues at LFL, that the only truths in the SW mythos are the six films themselves. Everything else contains a degree of uncertainty - the general state of C-canon. The Junior novel comes under that category - uncertain. Like I said, if it compliments the films, good. If it contradicts them, toss it.
No I'm not going to argue that the HP movies are the true canon - not that they're even SW related to begin with.
You're arguing the equivalent of HP movies having the "true" depiction of events.
The film depicts an intense battle between Dooku and Skywalker
We can see it's contrast in how Kenobi fares
The screenplay agrees
The adult novel agrees
Gillard agree, who said something along the lines of the fighters being on the same plain
- SithSauceLevel One
Re: Kit Fisto vs AotC Anakin & AotC Obi-Wan
April 9th 2020, 8:33 am
@Ziggy Also a quote from Matt Martin of Lucasfilm, which should apply to Legends canon as well
- O-Siri
Re: Kit Fisto vs AotC Anakin & AotC Obi-Wan
April 9th 2020, 10:21 am
The script and both novels depict Anakin as the one having the momentum with the single blade and Dooku regaining the upper hand when Anakin switches to Jar kai. I think all sources even the senior novel agree Dooku had the momentum at halfway stage of the fight. The only debatable point is whether Anakin was making him work to keep his lead or if Dooku was toying. The script says it was no contest which would imply Lucas meant to interpret Dooku as beating Anakin comprehensively. One could argue Dooku's silence and stoic expression is one of contempt rather than him being serious, I've some non versus debaters interpret his demeanor as such. That said he clearly looks weary after the fight; I've seen some interpret this as remorse, but that seems out of character. It's possible Lucas changed his mind as the AotC Script available to the public was clearly an early draft with a lot of inconsistencies unlike the RotS script which is much closer to the final cut. Labyrinth of Evil states Dooku saw Anakin as a powerful opponent but that could be in reference to the aforementioned first half.
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