Darth Vader V Exar Kun

@LadyKulvax

Darth Maul is "more power than ever" when referring to Sith that predated him.

Maul is > Kun

RotJ Luke scales beyond Maul

RotJ Luke > Maul > Exar Kun

RotJ Luke has been stated as an equal to RotJ Vader (The iteration being used.)

RotJ Vader > RotJ Luke > Darth Maul (TPM) > Exar Kun

I can provide sources if you'd like, but I'm pretty sure you know all of my claims are real.

source? evidence? PROOF??????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EmperorCaedus wrote:@LadyKulvax

Darth Maul is "more power than ever" when referring to Sith that predated him.

Maul is > Kun

RotJ Luke scales beyond Maul

RotJ Luke > Maul > Exar Kun

RotJ Luke has been stated as an equal to RotJ Vader (The iteration being used.)

RotJ Vader > RotJ Luke > Darth Maul (TPM) > Exar Kun

I can provide sources if you'd like, but I'm pretty sure you know all of my claims are real.

How in the hell does a statement about Maul's personal power have anything to do with Exar Kun?

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:oddly enough, i did read that respect thread twice now lol

exar kun < vitiate pre prime < prime vitiate < ROTS sheev < ROTJ sheev < DE sheev < end of DE luke < JA luke.

thats facts rights there ^^^

there is no feasible, possible, logical way that a "much weaker" exar kun could fight against JA luke unless he either got stronger, or unless luke was fighting worse than mustafar anakin did. 

ROTJ vader's durability is too high for someone much weaker than sheev to fight against, so exar kun cant even damage him. fighting sabers would mean certain death too.

Not only does Vitiate not have a legitimate OOU source declaring his superiority over Exar Kun. In fact, the opposite is true. But the idea of DE Luke > DE Sheev is cancer of the worst order.

EmperorCaedus wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:He's wrong? He is pretty fucking far from being wrong.

What? Kun is one shot tier for Sidious lmao.

DE Luke isn't even genuine one-shot tier for Sheev and prime Kun is canonically far beyond him.

Not only does Vitiate not have a legitimate OOU source declaring his superiority over Exar Kun. In fact, the opposite is true.

He has one putting him as one of the two most powerful Force users of TOR while comatose and on the brink of death (AKA far, far weaker than Vitiate at standard levels of power or even post-Nathema). He also - unlike Exar - has about a dozen IU sources from multiple different accounts as opposed to Exar's handful, at least one or two of which were also declared before Vitiate was fully conceived of as a character and thus retconned through time, quantity, and consistency. 

It's also worth noting that not only are the Kun being the most powerful Sith of his time accolades outdated, but Vitiate was virtually unknown at this point, keeping a low profile and only being known of through rumours and whispers.

He has a statement from a staff member that 'maybe even' goes beyond TOR media. Yeah, not enough. Exar Kun has quotes from late 2008, well after Vitiate was introduced on the holonet of swtor.com.

He has a statement from a staff member that 'maybe even' goes beyond TOR media. Yeah, not enough

...TOR includes the Exar Kun era.

Exar Kun has quotes from late 2008, well after Vitiate was introduced on the holonet of swtor.com.

Source? And most of Vitiate's accolades are from the time SWTOR was launched in 2011/2012, putting them not only later than Kun's (and thus more valid), but are greater in quantity and consistency.

Also, the Emperor was virtually unknown at this point:

THE FACT THAT THE SPIRITS OF THE ANCIENT SITH LORDS SUPPORTED EXAR KUN SUGGESTS THAT THEY DID NOT, AND PERHAPS DO NOT, SUPPORT THE SITH EMPEROR WE FACE TODAY.
WE HAVE VERY LITTLE INFORMATION ABOUT THE EMPEROR OR HIS EFFORTS TO REBUILD HIS EMPIRE IN EXILE.



-


IN OUR BRIEF GLIMPSES INTO THE EMPIRE’S SECRET HISTORY, ONE NAME STANDS OUT—GRAND MOFF ODILE VAIKAN—THE FOUNDER OF THE MODERN IMPERIAL MILITARY. AS A CHILD, VAIKAN WAS ONE OF THE FEW HUNDRED SURVIVORS WHO FLED THE CARNAGE ON KORRIBAN AT THE END OF THE GREAT HYPERSPACE WAR.


TO ESCAPE THEIR ENEMIES, THE EMPEROR LED A SMALL FLEET OF SITH SHIPS IN A HYPERSPACE JUMP INTO UNCHARTERED REGIONS.


THE EXILED FLEET WANDERED IN DEEP SPACE FOR MANY YEARS THEREAFTER. DURING THIS TIME, VAIKAN LEARNED NAVIGATION AND BECAME ONE OF THE FLEET’S MOST RESPECTED PILOTS. THE SURVIVORS FINALLY SETTLED ON THE JUNGLE WORLD OF DROMUND KAAS.


THERE, THE EMPEROR REVEALED HIS VISION TO BUILD A NEW CIVILIZATION OF UNRIVALED EFFICIENCY. HE PROMISED HIS PEOPLE VENGEANCE. AND HE PROMISED HIS PEOPLE VENGEANCE. HE PROMISED THEM AN EMPIRE DESTINED TO DOMINATE THE GALAXY—AN EMPIRE DESTINED TO BRING ABOUT THE REPUBLIC’S DESTRUCTION.


There's also a source from the Holonet pegging Exar Kun as "one of", being matched by Ulic Qel-Droma. Again, contradicting his being stated to be "the most powerful".

Lmfao, no it doesn't. The SWTOR media era starts with the Revan novel and encompasses everything after up until the latest chronological lore from the game.

That's not how this works, Exar Kun's quotes are OOU. Literally all of Vitiate's are IU besides one that might not even be a historical quote. OOU always trumps IU regardless of date. Exar Kun's quotes date from August to December of 2008. Vitiate was introduced on the holonet when the swtor.com website was launched in July of 2008.

Master Gnost-Dural's in-universe research is your OOU trumping source now? Lol.

Lmfao, no it doesn't. The SWTOR media era starts with the Revan novel and encompasses everything after up until the latest chronological lore from the game.

I'm not talking about SWTOR media era. I'm talking about the Old Republic era in general.

That's not how this works, Exar Kun's quotes are OOU.

Funny, I can only find this one:

Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he [Exar Kun] was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the rise of the Empire.

- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Again, before SWTOR.

Literally all of Vitiate's are IU besides one that might not even be a historical quote.

Per the official encyclopedia:


All members of the Empire bow before their sovereign ruler - the SITH EMPEROR. Enigmatic and supremely powerful, the Emperor directs his domain from the shadows and manipulates the galaxy to carry out his will.
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)


And again: 


The Sith Emperor, history's most powerful dark side master, performed a ritual of incredible scope to consume the life energy of every being on his homeworld.
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)


For a description of the Encyclopedia:


Since its release in 2011, the massively multiplayer online role playing game Star Wars: The Old Republic has captivated thousands of gamers and Star Wars fans alike. Now comes the ultimate in-depth guide to the turbulent and fascinating world featured in the game — The Old Republic.
Created in full collaboration with LucasArts, this in-depth companion covers the spectrum of characters, weapons, vehicles, events, and planets of Star Wars: The Old Republic. More than just an encyclopedia, it is the ultimate guided tour of the dangerous and mysterious universe found in a galaxy far, far away.


And the historical one doesn't matter because Vitiate was alive during and after Exar Kun died.

OOU always trumps IU regardless of date. Exar Kun's quotes date from August to December of 2008. Vitiate was introduced on the holonet when the swtor.com website was launched in July of 2008.

And the Backus quote is from 2012. Your point? 

"Revan travels to a very iconic Yavin IV to go to battle and release the actual Emperor, one we thought who was defeated not long ago. The player is pulled into this struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever, in the history of the Old Republic, if not beyond - Revan and the Emperor."

The "if not beyond" is irrelevant. Backus clearly states that a near-death Vitiate and Revan are two of the most powerful Force users in the history of the galaxy up until that point (which, again, includes Exar Kun). Near-death Vitiate <<< SWTOR Vitiate. 

Also, the codex is complicated. It combines in-universe lore as well as OOU lore, implications and knowledge not covered in the game. 

Master Gnost-Dural's in-universe research is your OOU trumping source now? Lol.

If you bothered to think, I'm using it as an example of how the perception on Exar Kun has changed. So far, your quotes are outnumbered, written before Vitiate was named as the most powerful Force user of all time (excluding Sidious, of course), and written in the IU context that Vitiate was virtually unknown at this point in time, as further evidenced by the lack of records on him. 
Stop wasting both of our time and just concede you were wrong about Kun being > Vitiate. Your stubbornness is becoming embarrassing now. It's been retconned, outnumbered, confirmed by the SWTOR devs, and IU none of them stack up when Vitiate was barely known at the time. 

Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Handbook wrote:It is clear from this duel [Qui Gon vs Maul on Tatooine] that the Sith are very much alive and more powerful than ever.

It is directly stated that Maul is powerful than any sith that predates himself, while this does not apply to Tenebrae or Revan, this does apply to Malak, and Malak is canonically superior to Exar Kun. 

Maul > Malak >> Exar Kun

I've searched for this 'Handbook' and no such source exists.

Exar Kun is beyond the likes of Darth Nihilus, nevermind Malak. Malak's quote is a from a limited third-person view and is clearly not reliable given a trove of mistakes/uncertainties made in it.

It's real but I don't think EC sourced it correctly. Regardless the source is IU.

BreakofDawn wrote:

Lmfao, no it doesn't. The SWTOR media era starts with the Revan novel and encompasses everything after up until the latest chronological lore from the game.

I'm not talking about SWTOR media era. I'm talking about the Old Republic era in general.

That's not how this works, Exar Kun's quotes are OOU.

[size=33]Funny, I can only find this one:[/size]

Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he [Exar Kun] was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the rise of the Empire.

- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Again, before SWTOR.

Literally all of Vitiate's are IU besides one that might not even be a historical quote.

[size=33]Per the official encyclopedia:[/size]


All members of the Empire bow before their sovereign ruler - the SITH EMPEROR. Enigmatic and supremely powerful, the Emperor directs his domain from the shadows and manipulates the galaxy to carry out his will.
[size=33]From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)[/size]


[size=33]And again: [/size]


The Sith Emperor, history's most powerful dark side master, performed a ritual of incredible scope to consume the life energy of every being on his homeworld.
[size=33]From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)[/size]


[size=33]For a description of the Encyclopedia:[/size]


Since its release in 2011, the massively multiplayer online role playing game Star Wars: The Old Republic has captivated thousands of gamers and Star Wars fans alike. Now comes the ultimate in-depth guide to the turbulent and fascinating world featured in the game — The Old Republic.
Created in full collaboration with LucasArts, this in-depth companion covers the spectrum of characters, weapons, vehicles, events, and planets of Star Wars: The Old Republic. More than just an encyclopedia, it is the ultimate guided tour of the dangerous and mysterious universe found in a galaxy far, far away.


[size=33]And the historical one doesn't matter because Vitiate was alive during and after Exar Kun died.[/size]

OOU always trumps IU regardless of date. Exar Kun's quotes date from August to December of 2008. Vitiate was introduced on the holonet when the swtor.com website was launched in July of 2008.

And the Backus quote is from 2012. Your point? 

"Revan travels to a very iconic Yavin IV to go to battle and release the actual Emperor, one we thought who was defeated not long ago. The player is pulled into this struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever, in the history of the Old Republic, if not beyond - Revan and the Emperor."

[size=33]Source: Michael Backus, lead designer of Star Wars The Old Republic[/size]

The "if not beyond" is irrelevant. Backus clearly states that a near-death Vitiate and Revan are two of the most powerful Force users in the history of the galaxy up until that point (which, again, includes Exar Kun). Near-death Vitiate <<< SWTOR Vitiate. 

Also, the codex is complicated. It combines in-universe lore as well as OOU lore, implications and knowledge not covered in the game. 

Master Gnost-Dural's in-universe research is your OOU trumping source now? Lol.

[size=33]If you bothered to think, I'm using it as an example of how the perception on Exar Kun has changed. So far, your quotes are outnumbered, written before Vitiate was named as the most powerful Force user of all time (excluding Sidious, of course), and written in the IU context that Vitiate was virtually unknown at this point in time, as further evidenced by the lack of records on him. [/size]
[size=33]Stop wasting both of our time and just concede you were wrong about Kun being > Vitiate. Your stubbornness is becoming embarrassing now. It's been retconned, outnumbered, confirmed by the SWTOR devs, and IU none of them stack up when Vitiate was barely known at the time. [/size]

1.Yes, but the quote you're using is referring to The Old Republic, not the old republic era as defined by The Phantom Menace. Given his only authority is within the bounds of SWTOR then he's pretty clearly choosing his words carefully.

2.The Omniscient Narrator of TOTJ states he's the most powerful dark sider in the galaxy and isn't even in his prime yet. A quote that comes from 2008.

3.The SWTOR:E is an in-universe source per the very first thing you read when you open it.

4.Even if it wasn't IU, all of the quotes therein are dated as of the battle of Ilum which is when the thing is sey. Which at best means that after 350 years Vitiate became more powerful than Exar Kun.

5.The Backus quote isn't saying that a near-death Vitiate and Revan are two of the most powerful Force-users ever. He's not being anywhere near that specific, it's referring to them in general. You added on context where it doesn't exist. Not that this even means that the quote puts them above or near Kun in the first place.

Again, refer to 1. He's only referring to the Old Republic as in the media umbrella for the game and that setting. He's only the Lead Designer for SWTOR, and that's one of many, might I add. That doesn't given him authority over anything beyond or prior and that's clear in how much water he's willing to tread.

The only version of Exar Kun we even see within the frame of reference of SWTOR is his spirit and it ragdolls the SOR protags, so I'm not sure you're doing yourself much of a favor by pointing towards Shadow of Revan.

You're asking for a concession when your argument is nothing but appeals to IU portrayal or BioWare staff. If we want to go around using IU portrayal, boy are you in for a ride given what kind of things are said about Kun in the timeframe of the NR era.

LadyKulvax wrote:I've searched for this 'Handbook' and no such source exists.

Exar Kun is beyond the likes of Darth Nihilus, nevermind Malak. Malak's quote is a from a limited third-person view and is clearly not reliable given a trove of mistakes/uncertainties made in it.

Are you claiming my sources are false? I can assure you they're very real.

Thus, 

Darth Vader ~ RotJ Luke > Darth Maul (TPM) > Darth Malak >> Exar Kun

I'd suggest finding a new avenue to tackle this situation.

If they're real, post them with full context and the actual source. Because the on you captioned doesn't exist.

Malak isn't even ~ Kun, lol.

Even if you presume Malak is inferior to Kun, that still doesn’t make it fact that Maul is >>>> Kun.

S O U R C E

LadyKulvax wrote:S O U R C E

The Phantom Menace various sourcebooks. It's not that hard to find.

LadyKulvax wrote:S O U R C E

I'd suggest delving into Star Wars lore a bit more before you go ahead and tell my sources are incorrect.

If you refuse to tell me where it's from then I cannot assume it's veracity. I've been reading Star Wars lore since the 90s. Get over yourself. Provide the actual title of the source or just stop.

LadyKulvax wrote:If you refuse to tell me where it's from then I cannot assume it's veracity. I've been reading Star Wars lore since the 90s. Get over yourself. Provide the actual title of the source or just stop.

I am not refusing to tell you, I just said it is in one of The Phantom Menace's various sourcebooks. If you find it hard to believe, ask a member of the community for their verification on the quote. 

It seems as if you can't take Maul being > Kun. Checkmate.