Revan vs Ventress and Grievous (sabers only)

I’m glad the diversionary timeline issue is sorted, now Sitharchaeologist, tell me why Revan is not only faster, but to such a degree that he can run rings around Ventress akin to a ‘Sidious vs B-Team’ situation.

Kilius wrote:Tbf  Anakin also cuts her - you can clearly see she's cut and searing smoke from her cheek in the bottom scan, but yeah if we go by the old timeline - which I do - it's a pretty sold feat for her.

He does, but landing a hit to a toying Ventress with the intent to kill isn’t exactly the same as her landing one on him while holding back - which would have beheaded him had she wished.

Ventress can defeat Anakin in a duel even at this stage, the comic makes it abundantly clear. I’d say it is more than a solid feat.

DarthNygaxFan77 wrote:I’m glad the diversionary timeline issue is sorted, now Sitharchaeologist, tell me why Revan is not only faster, but to such a degree that he can run rings around Ventress akin to a ‘Sidious vs B-Team’ situation.

The timeline issue is not sorted, but I digress. Not that it matters anyhow.

Speed is directly related to Force power. The stronger you are in the Force, the faster your combative speed will clock in as. Revan is an ocean of power next to Ventress' rain puddle. It's not even funny. Prime Revan scales massively above the Jedi Exiles, who alone are likely comparable to if not outright superior to Ventress as Force wielders. Even outside of scaling off others, Revan at arguably his weakest moment (mere weeks after being freed from three centuries of continuous mental torture at the hands of Vitiate & the Dread Masters that fractured his psyche) was able to suspend over a dozen asteroids and hurl them at will so fast they shattered into bullet-sized fragments (mid-combat, mind you). He was also able to will himself back from death and teleport himself across the galaxy. Again, this version of Revan was far weaker than prime Revan.

But sure, Ventress has comparable speed.

Revan killed a team that would roflstomp this team and they had to be resurrected (by Revan's other half) and cause his own superweapon-empowering energy to backlash against him, just to get him to retreat. Then he was going to beat a Coalition Strike Team that could've been: SOR!Hero of Tython, Darth Marr(a Malgus equal), Lord Scourge, Lana Beniko, Shae Viszla, and Theron Shan. (Then destroy both Republic and Imperial armies) But Satele Shan's battle meditation tipped it to their side.

I'd also like to know how the team beat him with sabers when he can literally facetank lightsaber blades without even being hurt.

Revan murders.

SithArchaeologist wrote:The timeline issue is not sorted, but I digress. Not that it matters anyhow.

Then why waste my time with it?

SithArchaeologist wrote:Speed is directly related to Force power. The stronger you are in the Force, the faster your combative speed will clock in as. Revan is an ocean of power next to Ventress' rain puddle. It's not even funny.

I do find it amusing that Revan has so few decent duelling feats, that you must jump into this argument right away. I don't necessarily disagree, as it puts Ventress in a good spot.

SithArchaeologist wrote:Prime Revan scales massively above the Jedi Exiles, who alone are likely comparable to if not outright superior to Ventress as Force wielders. Even outside of scaling off others, Revan at arguably his weakest moment (mere weeks after being freed from three centuries of continuous mental torture at the hands of Vitiate & the Dread Masters that fractured his psyche) was able to suspend over a dozen asteroids and hurl them at will so fast they shattered into bullet-sized fragments (mid-combat, mind you). He was also able to will himself back from death and teleport himself across the galaxy. Again, this version of Revan was far weaker than prime Revan.

I thought we were going to discuss force power? Seems to me that you've listed off a bunch of pointless willpower feats. Maybe Revan can will himself back to life after Asajj butchers him for 100th time? Or perhaps he can teleport away after his 86th death? Nothing places the Exiles close to Ventress either, please back up that comparison.

Asajj - before her cybernetic rework - is above pre-Outer Rim Sieges Anakin, who is far more powerful than the version who can move CIS dreadnaughts and is already loosely comparable to a Dooku greater than the one on Korriban in 23 BBY. Given this, Asajj can easily throw around a great many monstrous ships far taller than the statues in the Valley of the Dark Lords. With little more than a Padawan's training, she can stomp beings who scale monstrously above Karkko, himself able to plunge a whole planet into 'great darkness' with his mere presence, corrupt a planet's worth of Anzati, exercising telepathic domination over them while suppressing Aayla's memories and amplifying her hatred - and again, this is Ventress with some duelling lessons from Dooku and half a Padawan's training. If I were to continue listing off the scaling she gets from huge ship throwers and world dominators even as of 22 BBY, I'd be here all day. To top it off, this doesn't all rely on an MMO which is stated to have overblown showings, so even without taking into consideration the exaggerated medium, Revan comes off looking worse than early-war Ventress.

SithArchaeologist wrote:But sure, Ventress has comparable speed.

Tell me again why Revan is considered to be above even Pre-Acolyte Asajj Ventress?

LadyKulvax wrote:Revan killed a team that would roflstomp this team and they had to be resurrected (by Revan's other half) and cause his own superweapon-empowering energy to backlash against him, just to get him to retreat. Then he was going to beat a Coalition Strike Team that could've been: SOR!Hero of Tython, Darth Marr(a Malgus equal), Lord Scourge, Lana Beniko, Shae Viszla, and Theron Shan. (Then destroy both Republic and Imperial armies) But Satele Shan's battle meditation tipped it to their side.

I'd also like to know how the team beat him with sabers when he can literally facetank lightsaber blades without even being hurt.

Revan murders.

In a hypothetical battle such as this, should we really take into consideration such a thing, if this is a Sion-type situation. If he is invincible, but is disarmed and defeated, that really should be considered end of discussion, proving Ventress' superiority. Even if he can't truly be killed unless he wills it.

I'm sympathetic to the idea that Revan is a formidable duelist despite his lack of directly observable feats against high tier duelists. He mastered all seven forms and has butchered armies of Force users in lightsaber combat. He has the technical skill and the combat experience, so it would make little sense that he'd be fodder given his enormous command of the Force. Couple that with his mastery of Echani battle precognition, and he should in all fairness rank pretty highly.

That said, I can see him taking Ventress in a pure duel, but not General Grievous, and their combined might would undoubtedly be far too much for him. The notion that this would be a Sidious vs B-team situation is a staggering claim that requires staggering proof. His fights against either strike team in Shadow of Revan aren't close to being satisfactory, and the idea he holds his body together through sheer will to the point he's immune to lightsaber strikes or whatever it is that's currently being peddled is wholly unsubstantiated in my eyes.

Sure you could say that Ventress giving ROTS anakin trouble is impressive, but didn't a single magnaguard give Anakin trouble?

Nahdar Vebb is above Anakin then. What a stupid comparison.

Dooku speedblitzes two magnaguards before they can react, and Anakin is faster than him by RotS.

Asajj can kick TCW Windus ass while holding back and TPM Windu is factually above Revan, RIP Revan you were neato before TOR got to you.

Duo.

You deliberately excluded certain parts of the fight, namely the ones that are relevant to this matchup - the actual lightsaber duel;

Despite this, she dances around Anakin, cutting him twice and landing kicks.

Well, let's run through some of the panels.



Asajj finds out about Padme and threatens to kill her. I don't think it's outlandish to posit that such a threat could have destabilized Anakin, considering he has an absolute fear of Padme dying and hasn't yet learned how to channel his fear into power per the ROTS adult novel line-edited by Lucas himself. And I doubt Asajj's dun moch and continued threats of finding Padme didn't intensify Anakin's terror and desperation further.



Then the comic even juxtaposes the Council saying relationships can "keep your mind from what you're doing" and "make your reckless" with Anakin's fight. That seems to add fifty credence points to my idea Anakin's thinking and fighting wildly and irrationally. And if Anakin's thinking and fighting wildly and irrationally, it's not hard to figure how someone as familiar with Anakin's style and mindset like Asajj could really exploit that to her benefit.

---

So, no, I posted only the later scans because I don't think the earlier part's a good indicator of Anakin's skills whatsoever. I think that's even self-evident unless you think 19 BBY Asajj is far greater than S4 Dooku (who is significantly pressed by S4 Anakin). Note that you're also welcome to think the second half of the fight's not a good indicator either. I don't particularly care to dive into the mechanics of Anakin's rage, but even then we're just left with tossing out the fight completely.

Jake wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:Revan killed a team that would roflstomp this team and they had to be resurrected (by Revan's other half) and cause his own superweapon-empowering energy to backlash against him, just to get him to retreat. Then he was going to beat a Coalition Strike Team that could've been: SOR!Hero of Tython, Darth Marr(a Malgus equal), Lord Scourge, Lana Beniko, Shae Viszla, and Theron Shan. (Then destroy both Republic and Imperial armies) But Satele Shan's battle meditation tipped it to their side.

I'd also like to know how the team beat him with sabers when he can literally facetank lightsaber blades without even being hurt.

Revan murders.

In a hypothetical battle such as this, should we really take into consideration such a thing, if this is a Sion-type situation. If he is invincible, but is disarmed and defeated, that really should be considered end of discussion

Revan carries five lightsabers so, even going by this, X should have to disarm him repeatedly (not that Asajj could strike him at all).

@LadyKulvax

Revan killed a team that would roflstomp this team and they had to be resurrected (by Revan's other half) and cause his own superweapon-empowering energy to backlash against him, just to get him to retreat. Then he was going to beat a Coalition Strike Team that could've been: SOR!Hero of Tython, Darth Marr(a Malgus equal), Lord Scourge, Lana Beniko, Shae Viszla, and Theron Shan. (Then destroy both Republic and Imperial armies) But Satele Shan's battle meditation tipped it to their side.

I'd also like to know how the team beat him with sabers when he can literally facetank lightsaber blades without even being hurt.

Gameplay mechanic. And before Ant or one of the others goes on about how SoR Revan is literally a gameplay character, act 1 HoT for example and fodder Jedi have been shown to take lightsaber slashes and stabs and be completely unfazed, yet a much more powerful version of the HoT would have died to Arcann's blade if it wasn't for Valkorion per a cutscene. Just because it happens in the game doesn't mean it can be taken completely literally. If it were, fodder Jedi/Sith and average Jedi padawans like Yadira Ban have greater durability than act 3 HoT.

BreakofDawn wrote:
Gameplay mechanic. And before Ant or one of the others goes on about how SoR Revan is literally a gameplay character, act 1 HoT for example and fodder Jedi have been shown to take lightsaber slashes and stabs and be completely unfazed, yet a much more powerful version of the HoT would have died to Arcann's blade if it wasn't for Valkorion per a cutscene. Just because it happens in the game doesn't mean it can be taken completely literally. If it were, fodder Jedi/Sith and average Jedi padawans like Yadira Ban have greater durability than act 3 HoT.

That's never been my argument or anyone else's, lol.

BreakofDawn wrote:@LadyKulvax

Revan killed a team that would roflstomp this team and they had to be resurrected (by Revan's other half) and cause his own superweapon-empowering energy to backlash against him, just to get him to retreat. Then he was going to beat a Coalition Strike Team that could've been: SOR!Hero of Tython, Darth Marr(a Malgus equal), Lord Scourge, Lana Beniko, Shae Viszla, and Theron Shan. (Then destroy both Republic and Imperial armies) But Satele Shan's battle meditation tipped it to their side.

I'd also like to know how the team beat him with sabers when he can literally facetank lightsaber blades without even being hurt.

Gameplay mechanic. And before Ant or one of the others goes on about how SoR Revan is literally a gameplay character, act 1 HoT for example and fodder Jedi have been shown to take lightsaber slashes and stabs and be completely unfazed, yet a much more powerful version of the HoT would have died to Arcann's blade if it wasn't for Valkorion per a cutscene. Just because it happens in the game doesn't mean it can be taken completely literally. If it were, fodder Jedi/Sith and average Jedi padawans like Yadira Ban have greater durability than act 3 HoT.

You are completely and utterly missing the point, lol. No one is dumb enough to argue that gameplay mechanics of lightsaber hits doing x damage means Revan can take multiple lightsaber hits.

@SithArchaeologist

What's the argument for that, then?

Azronger wrote:@SithArchaeologist

What's the argument for that, then?

The argument surrounds Revan facetanking the backlash of a wave of power capable of wiping out all life on Yavin IV. That's the gist of it, at least. Ant and Kulvax essentially argue that the blast collapsed inside Revan's body, meaning he wouldn't have had time/would have been incapable of throwing up a Force shield, instead essentially willing himself to survive. And since, obviously, that blastwave was far stronger than a lightsaber strike, Revan can tank direct lightsaber hits.

We see him tank a lightsaber hit during a cutscene without flinching, as if it didn't even hit him.

Meatpants wrote:We see him tank a lightsaber hit during a custscene without flinching, as if it didn't even hit him.

Nobody else in the verse can do that dude, I attribute that to his masks durability

Meatpants wrote:We see him tank a lightsaber hit during a cutscene without flinching, as if it didn't even hit him.

1) You can't prove the blade dug any deeper than his mask.

2) He had an insanely potent dark side nexus amping him.

3) If we're using the trailer cutscene as proof, that alone kills the idea this would be a Sidious vs. B-team situation since we see Satele seemed to be acquitting herself rather well in a duel against Revan while he was amped and she was weakened by the dark side nexus, unless you believe she is vastly superior to the combined prowess of Ventress and Grievous as a duelist. I know you specifically didn't make this argument, just addressing it since I knew the trailer was gonna be brought up.

@Meatpants When? You're talking about a trailer, which again the likes of Satele, the HoT, Outlander, etc have all clearly replicated. The same trailer has a weakened Satele going toe to toe with Revan and landing multiple strikes on him, and since this is pre-KOTFE Satele she's Malgus level at best.

@SithArchaeologist So what is the point in saying he can "facetank lightsaber blades" when he has never done so? He has no feats to suggest a lightsaber to the head, decapitation or dismemberment wouldn't work on him. All of those are things the team are capable of doing to him if they get in close.

@DarthAnt66 Only threw you in because you're the most well known Revan debater I know, sorry. Just covering my own arse so I don't have to deal with that same stupid argument that I had to deal with on CV.

SithArchaeologist wrote:

Azronger wrote:@SithArchaeologist

What's the argument for that, then?

The argument surrounds Revan facetanking the backlash of a wave of power capable of wiping out all life on Yavin IV. That's the gist of it, at least. Ant and Kulvax essentially argue that the blast collapsed inside Revan's body, meaning he wouldn't have had time/would have been incapable of throwing up a Force shield, instead essentially willing himself to survive. And since, obviously, that blastwave was far stronger than a lightsaber strike, Revan can tank direct lightsaber hits.

1) Again, he was amped by the Yavin IV dark side nexus, which is ridiculously potent.

2) The blast would have, at maximum potency, only been capable of wiping out life within 1 km of the Temple, not the entire moon. And since Revan had to charge it for over two minutes before it got even that potent, we don't actually know the intensity of the backlash Revan got hit by since he was interrupted before the two-minute mark. It's an entirely unquantifiable feat.