A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

@LOTL:

LOTL wrote:The Blue text is not Plagueis's narration, but an OOU view on the matter

What? No. Everything we know about the death energy ability comes from Plagueis himself.





None of the above comes from a third-person omniscient narrator. Almost no Star Wars novel even has a third-person omniscient narrator, and the few who do still alternate between third-person omniscient and third-person limited. All of the above is reflecting Plagueis' thoughts and knowledge about the subject. Plagueis acknowledges the death energy ability in red, the "lost knowledge" in purple, and that it induced midichlorians to regenerate in orange. Accordingly, Plagueis is well-aware that the ancient Sith, as you put it, utilized "the drain force ability coupled with "lost knowledge" to induce the midichlorians to regenerate."

LOTL wrote:The orange section is not saying that Plagueis is aware that the Ancient Sith are not employing midichlorian manipulation. In fact, it hinges on Plagueis theorizing that they are employing Midichlorian manipulation

Then what were you saying? Why does it hinge on Plagueis theorizing that they are employing midi-chlorian manipulation? As I said in my last response, "Plagueis never states nor insinuates the ancient Sith achieved direct midi-chlorian manipulation. I'm not exactly sure where you got that notion. You did not even attempt to justify it whatsoever." Yet, still, you haven't substantiated your claims whatsoever. However, ironically, all your arguments go against this point. Plagueis and you fully agree with "the reality" of what the ancient Sith were doing, so why would Plagueis be mistaken they are also or instead doing something else too? That doesn't make sense.

If you are using accolades from the books, etc, then why not use accolades provided by the creator of the series, such as the prequel era is the height of the power of the Jedi and the Sith?  Or simply other accolades in general such as the abundance of quotes about Sidious as of TPM being the most powerful Sith to have ever lived?  


Of course, getting away from Legends, we have Bane was the most powerful Sith up until his time, but we have more Canon coming up with OR and ancient Sith being (re)introduced.  This can still change, but I realize Canon isn't being discussed here.

IIRC in one of the discord chats, there was an accolade stating Kun was the most powerful up until his time, and that would have needed to be in Legends, but I'm just guessing on that.

@Heathen: Whether the "prequel era is the height of the power of the Jedi and Sith" or "Sidious as of TPM is the most powerful Sith to have ever lived"--both of which I disagree with, mind you--have nothing to do with this thread. The argument specifically concerns 67 BBY Darth Plagueis' concession of inferiority to Freedon Nadd.

Good analysis.

VI. ADDENDUM: MECHANICS OF THE DEATH ENERGY ABILITY

Darth Plagueis, Star Wars Darth Plagueis wrote:
According to his Sith education, since Captain Lah and the others had been in some sense dead from the moment Plagueis's gaze had alighted on the freighter, it followed that the midi-chlorians that resided in alleged symbiosis with them must have been preparing to be subsumed into the reservoir of life energy that was the Force long before Plagueis had stowed away. His attempts to save them-to prolong that state of symbiosis-were comparable to using a sponge to dam a raging river. And yet the Sith Lords of old were said to have been able to draw on the energies released during death to extend their own lives, as well as the lives of others. Unfortunately, much like the technique of essence transfer, that ancient knowledge had been lost.

Recall the parallels between the death energy ability and drain Force discussed in section II-paragraph 1: both "draw on the energies released during death." However, note that drain Force can refer not only to the act of feeding on death energies but also to inducing the death itself. Kreia explains that drain Force practitioners can "sever connections between life, the Force" (Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2), as demonstrated when she uses drain Force to kill the Jedi Council and their corpses are "worse than lifeless, like an absence in the Force" (Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2). Plagueis explains this Force sever is performed by triggering a mass die-off of midi-chlorians: "To sever the Force is to trigger a mass die-off of victim's midi-chlorians—not enough to kill but enough to take a Jedi's power. It could be that the Jedi of old knew this feat, but if so they did not understand its underpinnings" (Star Wars Book of Sith). Note that this is not contradicted by Ulic-Qel Droma becoming a Force ghost, as simply his existing midi-chlorians could have sublimed into the Force. And Plagueis' observations are further upheld in the Book of Sith endnotes available on starwars.com: “Sever Force. This removes a Jedi’s ability to use the Force, and was introduced in the Tales of the Jedi comics during the 1990s. Given what we’ve learned of the Force since then, I added the detail that this works by triggering a mass die-off of the subject’s midi-chlorians" (link). Unsurprisingly, these Force sever mechanics link back to Plagueis' midi-chlorian commentary in red. When individuals die, their midi-chlorians fade back into the Force. Not only did the ancient Sith feed on this subsumption, but also they could directly induce it by triggering a mass die-off of the midi-chlorians themselves. Drain Force is the death energy ability.

Refer back to the starting quote in section I. Plagueis states, "Extending life, then, could hinge on something as simple as being able to induce midi-chlorians to create new cells; to subdivide at will, increasing their numbers into the tens of thousands to heal or replace damaged, aging, or metastatic cells ... If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this." I have already covered every segment of these lines except the purple. Plagueis supposing extending life is achievable by "inducing midi-chlorians to create new cells," then stating "the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this," manifestly means that the ancient Sith extended life by "inducing midi-chlorians to create new cells." Given Plagueis likewise states that the ancient Sith "drew on the energies released during death to extend their own lives," and that neither Plagueis nor Palpatine know of any prior Sith who manipulated midi-chlorians directly, the ancient Sith must have then indirectly "induced midi-chlorians to create new cells" through drain Force. As to how that is possible, post-42 BBY Plagueis explains, "I forced the midi-chlorians to override their natural life cycles. What I discovered is that these midi-chlorians would not die. Instead, they drew upon sustaining Force energy, which acted on a microscopic level to halt tissue decay in their host, putting an end to aging and disease" (Star Wars Book of Sith). In other words, "sustaining Force energy" can rejuvenate midi-chlorians, and the ancient Sith were effectively 'shoving' "sustaining Force energy" into their midi-chlorians by feeding on death energies. Recall that while 67 BBY Plagueis can perform drain Force, he lacks the ability to do so to the extent that it extends his life. As explained in section II-paragraph 2, this is due to a combination of insufficient power and knowledge. However, those that have sufficient power and knowledge can indeed employ drain Force "to induce midi-chlorians to create new cells" to extend their lives. The .gif below visually explains this process. Unlike Naga Sadow, 67 BBY Plagueis can perform steps 1 and 2 but not 3. 



Examples! Scourge theorized that Vitiate did exactly this: "A grim theory passed unbidden through Scourge’s mind: was it possible all those that had been consumed by the ritual on Nathema still existed in some form within the Emperor himself? Nyriss said he’d devoured them, but what if she was only partially correct? What if he had imprisoned their spirits inside his own corporeal form, slowly feeding on their life energy over a thousand years to keep himself young and strong?" (Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan). In other words, Scourge believed that Vitiate fed off spirits (i.e. "the energies released during death") to remain "young and strong" (i.e. "to heal or replace damaged, aging, or metastatic cells"). Of course, given Vitiate was at least a century old as of the Nathema ritual, and that Darth Vowrawn was described as an "elder statesman" at age 76 (Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia), Vitiate must have 'de-aged' himself to appear "young and strong," not to mention that he extended his life a millennium in the first place. Darth Malak's "regeneration" of his "vitality" on the Star Forge via draining the Jedi captives may also be an example (Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic: Prima's Official Strategy Guide). Also, note that 67 BBY Plagueis' concession of inferiority to the ancient Sith is not contradicted by Meetra Surik and Kreia's recovery of their lost midi-chlorians throughout Knights of the Old Republic 2 given the unique context and circumstances. The two's severed Force condition "created a vergence in the Force that reconnected them to the energy field surrounding all living things" (Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide) or, in other words, induced midi-chlorian regeneration in and of itself. Further, Meetra's ability to instinctively and passively 'drain Force' everyone around her, which is likely what further facilitated her midi-chlorian regeneration, is markedly different from the deliberate, focused, and terminal drain Force usage of most ancient and modern Sith, and evidently only due to her unique 'wound in the Force' condition given she no longer displays such ability or continues rapidly growing in power after the 'wound' closes. While not a 'wound in the Force' herself, Kreia still indirectly benefits from all of Meetra's feeding due to their incredibly powerful Force bond. 

While drain Force can extend life, it evidently cannot grant true immortality. Plagueis is correct in his assessment that, "The great dark side Lords of the past had doomed themselves to the nether realm through their attempts to conquer death by feeding off the energies of others" (Darth Plagueis, Star Wars Darth Plagueis). The ability's dependence on external sources ultimately makes the practitioner dependent on external conditions—external conditions that inevitably end with death. Plagueis does not need intermediary abilities or an ever-growing sacrifice of others to extend life—he can simply directly and independently influence his midi-chlorians to do that. Also, note that Plagueis' "I forced the midi-chlorians to override..." commentary in paragraph 2 suggests that any midi-chlorian gains achieved by drain Force would eventually be lost if one does not drain more, as the midi-chlorians would wither without "sustaining Force energy." Moreover, as stated by Kreia and revealed through Darth Nihilus and the Sith Assassins, drain Force leads to terrible physical and mental deterioration. Feeding on death energies induce an insatiable hunger, trapping practitioners in a loop of needing to drain and the drain destroying them: "And it devours him as he devours others ... Because it is not something that can ever truly be controlled, and it leaves nothing to conquer in its wake" (Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2). Even Vitiate suffered from these drawbacks. Revan states, "The dark side is like a cancer inside him; it grows faster than he can feed it. He has consumed an entire world, but he still hungers" (Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan), and Dramath states, "His hunger for immortality must constantly be fed" (Star Wars The Old Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne). All of that is why midi-chlorian manipulation is an advancement of drain Force. Of course, despite its 'haxx', remember that Plagueis suffered from a premature death and never actualized a fraction of its benefits.

NOTE: This section has also been added to the original blog on page 1.

Very good analysis.

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On a serious note; you provided much needed context to some of the greater realities of the LORE which must be promoted in all platforms.

Beautifully constructed and elaborated.

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I am UPDATING and EXPANDING my blog about Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion at present: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/valkorion-respect-thread-updated-and-expanded-in-2/97466/

I will REVISIT the IMMORTALITY section soon, and will incorporate some of your points in it. I give you credit as well.

@Jaggarath Really interresting addition.

@Latham2000 @S_W_LeGenD @xolthol: Thank you all. I appreciate it.

Good stuff Ant.

@DarthAnt66

You could also use the following points to support your paragraph 6 (VI).

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"Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights—so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double-cross. But Traya underestimates her disciples' depravity. They turn on her and drain her Force powers."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

The above quote supports your point of: “Plagueis explains this Force sever is performed by triggering a mass die-off of midi-chlorians: "To sever the Force is to trigger a mass die-off of victim's midi-chlorians—not enough to kill but enough to take a Jedi's power. It could be that the Jedi of old knew this feat, but if so they did not understand its underpinnings" (Star Wars Book of Sith).”

In the above case, Nihilus uses his ‘life-draining gift’ (i.e Force Drain) to trigger a mass die-off of Kreia’s midi chlorians. Kreia , as we know, does not die but Nihilus has ‘drain[ed] her Force powers’ which is analogous to ‘take a Jedi’s power’ and 'not enough to kill' parts.

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"Darth Nihilus was known as the Lord of Hunger and was noted for his ability to literally consume the Force energy of his victims, which was used to sustain his own life energies. It was rumored that he could consume the Force energy of an entire planet.

―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia


Drawn to the assembled Masters, Nihilus devoured the life energy of everything on Katarr.
 
―The Conclave at Katarr Codex Entry (Star Wars: The Old Republic)


"As Nihilus greedy consumes entire planets life energies, the dark side macerates him even faster."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide


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The 3 quotes above support your points of: “Recall the parallels between the death energy ability and drain Force discussed in section II-paragraph 1: both "draw on the energies released during death." However, note that drain Force can refer not only to the act of feeding on death energies but also to inducing the death itself”, your GIF and your previous quote stated earlier.

So here we have a case where Nihilus uses Force Drain to cause a mass die-off of victim’s midi- chlorians and then feeds on the ‘Force energy’ which is released as those dead midichlorians subsume into the Force (step 2 of GIF) and finally when the victim is dead their life energies are consumed to sustain Nihilus (step 3 of GIF). It’s only once the victim is dead ,due to the consumption of their Force energy, that the life energies are consumed and be able to sustain the user. And I think this is why Kreia says that feeding through the technique is dependent on the ‘death it causes.’ The victim has to die first, through consuming their Force energy, in order to consume their life energies.

The other 2 quotes just mention how Nihilus consumes entire planet’s life energies which is in line with Nihilus being able to ‘consume the Force energy of entire planet’. So Nihilus first consumes the Force energy of the entire planet, this causes the death and once the death is caused is when the life energies are consumed. And once the life energies are consumed, is when these life energies can be used to sustain the user, which is in line with step 3 of your GIF. The Sever Force part seems to be a component of Force Drain as a whole which is also supported by the fact that Nihilus has a Force power mastery of Sever Force as stated in the Star Wars Roleplaying Game Saga Edition Core Rulebook.

So this list basically scales the ancients like Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd and Kun up there above Tenebrous but does it also bring SWTOR characters up there too? And if so does that also make sith from the dark council more powerful than the likes of Freedon Nadd ?

Great thread! Funny to think that people on comic vine thought Tenebrous was more powerful than Valkorion.

I do agree with you here but a few things sprung to Mind

DarthAnt66: wrote:] Here's a good analogy. Picture a mathematician that can't crack a terribly challenging math problem. However, he knows a lot about the math problem, has dedicated his whole life to researching the math problem and math problems like it, and is world-renowned mathematician. If that mathematician then states with absolutely certainty that those who have cracked this math problem are greater mathematicians than he is, that's an extremely credible declaration. Now, picture someone who knows math by reading some of the textbooks of this mathematician, has no first-hand conception of this math problem and math problems like it, and considered the math problem for only a few years. If that someone then baselessly dismisses the world-renowned mathematician's declaration as unreliable, that would be pretty silly. Wouldn't it?

So this mathematician is Plageuis and he can’t crack the challenging math problem that Naga Sadow did, but for example couldn’t Plageuis be amazing at everything but shit at algebra but then Naga Sadow is amazing at algebra but shit at everything else, everything else includes Midichloran manipulation, so if the basis for this is that Sadow knows a lost ability that Plagueis doesn’t, couldn’t the same be said for Plageuis as he knows midichlorian manipulation in a way that Sadow doesn’t. With the same logic Couldn’t the same be said that Plagueis > Sidious as Sidious never mastered midichlorian manipulation to the degree Plagueis did, also isn’t Plageuis’ way of cheating death more impressive than Sadows especially given the fact that He chose to tell Anakin of Plageuis’ way of cheating death and not Sadows way

Just playing with some ideas here but yeh I still agree with your conclusion

Vaelias wrote:So this list basically scales the ancients like Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd and Kun up there above Tenebrous but does it also bring SWTOR characters up there too? And if so does that also make sith from the dark council more powerful than the likes of Freedon Nadd ?

Yes, these revelations provide further scale and depth to SWTOR characters and members of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire by extension.

SWTOR is continuation of the story of the ancient Sith in simple terms - the most up-to-date source material about the ancients and how they evolved and changed through the ages.