★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress

Some points for Savage that may have been overlooked:

Savage Is Not Inconsistent

There's a common argument that Savage's best feats are all during Witches of the Mist, and are clear outliers, inconsistent and not to be used. I would rebut this by pointing out that it's not a case of inconsistency in the sense that Savage himself became weaker later on or was abnormally strong to begin with, or a writing inconsistency, but rather that as time went on his approach changed, and the circumstances he found himself in were rarely the same.

In Witches of the Mist he becomes abnormally berzerk due to being used, betrayed and denigrated by those who are supposed to be his allies. He's able to throw Dooku, Ventress, Anakin and Obi-Wan around physically and with TK, often combining the two. Everyone assumes that because of these overt outbursts of raw power that any time he is not doing this he is "weaker" or "more consistent" or something. What's often gone unmentioned is that these outbursts of power didn't actually accomplish anything - they were impressive, to be certain, but fundamentally they did not get Savage any closer to killing any of his opponents. We have a quote stating that due to a skill and training deficit, Maul is a "far more formidable foe" than Savage even as of Season 4 when he was way out of practice and adjusting to the new legs.

Savage also went berzerk in the Death Sentence comic, blasting the Jedi and even Maul off their feet... but again, this accomplished nothing. Compare that to any of his feats when he is actually exercising a degree of control and focus:

-Gives Ventress hell in unarmed before even being imbued with Talzin's magick
-Embarrasses Halsey and Knox without a lightsaber effortlessly
-Manages to hold off and physically throw Anakin and Obi-Wan around through sheer strength while capturing that Toydorian guy
-In the opening stage of his and Ventress' fight with Dooku, before he is abnormally angry, he sets up a lightsaber sequence that ends with Dooku being smashed into a wall and left disarmed
-He manages to off-balance Obi-Wan through the sheer strength of his lightsaber strikes, granted, Obi-Wan was completely caught off-guard, but it's still impressive
-He gets the better of a one-saber Ventress
-He dominates Plo Koon despite Koon having the aid of numerous clone troopers
-He kills Adi Gallia by landing a Force push and then gutting her while her guard is down
-He is accoladed as being an unrivalled duo while paired with Maul, which is clearly on display when they hold their own against f*cking Sidious in a duel, one source even suggesting they "initially gained the upper hand", but even throwing that out, Savage did better than Mace's B-Team even when he had to briefly duel Sidious alone. Savage was competent enough not to be easily separated from Maul as has happened to so many other characters like Kenobi (several times), Aayla Secura (SoD), Fisto (RotS) etc. In fact, Maul is the one who ends up being separated with TK, partly due to the fact he was concussed from the impact with the wall

And with those feats in mind, looking back at his out of control berzerker feats, he still:

-Posed a significant threat to Ventress and Dooku simultaneously
-Pushed back Anakin and Obi-Wan for an extended period of time

Which leads into a nice segway to...

Savage Is Extremely Skilled Technically

Savage mastered the saberstaff within mere months of training, showed enough precision to cut off Tatsu's hand instead of bisecting him, has not been outclassed by many highly technically skilled opponents (Koon, Gallia, Kenobi, Anakin, Ventress etc), and although he has on a few occasions, they're not enough to suggest Malgus can replicate these instances just as easily (Maul is a better unarmed martial artist than Malgus by light years, which is a large part of how he disarmed Savage, Sidious made Savage look foolish, but that's hardly a slight due to the fact Savage had just taken a serious blow to the head and it's f*cking Sidious, and you have the Judd example, which is fair game, although still earlier in Savage's training). Obi-Wan noted in Shadow Conspiracy that Savage was fighting with an animal intensity that was more along the lines of TPM Maul, and Dooku commented that Savage would soon reach TPM Maul's level with some training - Kenobi noted, and it's also backed by Filoni, that Maul is a much less animalistic, much colder and more determined fighter than he was in TPM. He is also noted as having "astonishing skill" as he deflects blaster bolts alongside Maul.

The point being, while Savage isn't a top tier technical duelist, he is certainly competent enough technically speaking that he can more than bridge that gap by supplementing his skill with an extreme advantage in physical mass and power. Savage has also been accoladed as being an unpredictable fighter in large part thanks to his extremely aggressive fighting style, and likely also because of the fact he's a much more natural, idiosyncratic fighter than someone who has been through years of rigorous technical training, and in a way, this lends him a unique advantage - you won't really know what to expect while fighting Savage due to the fact he doesn't follow a script and could explode with power at any moment.

Force Lightning

Can we please remember that Savage's training was in it's infancy when Dooku tooled him with Lightning? After that point, Savage not only carries the experience of that encounter with him, but he gets to train under Maul as a Banite Sith for several months, including at the Umbaran Shadow Academy where many of the students wield Force Lightning - Maul took over said academy. I find it extremely, extremely unlikely to think that the topic of "Oh, btw, how do you not get fucking owned by Lightning?" never came up while he spent every day training under Maul. And while the deleted scene from the Lawless was probably deleted for a reason, the fact remains, they went as far as to animate Savage blocking the Lightning with his lightsaber - so the intention is clearly there that he learned how to do this.

Point being, the default assumption is not "Savage by S5 has no idea how to defend lightning, so Malgus can easily f*ck him with it" - you do not know any better than I know if that's true. We know he was vulnerable to it at the beginning of his career, but to say after gaining extensive knowledge, training and experience that Savage would never have learned how to defend against Lightning when even Ventress was taught how to (or learned by herself), is pretty silly on the face of it.

Savage's Advantages

-He is much, much, much stronger than Malgus. The ability to throw the likes of Dooku and Anakin around with sheer strength (both of whom have no issues with Yoda or Grievous' strength), and him clearly being much stronger than Maul, whose own strength feats kick the shit out of Malgus', the fact is that the possibility of Malgus himself being throttled by Savage is a pretty happy possibility.
-Savage is clearly much stronger in the Force than Malgus naturally, given the feats he's pulled off so early in his career with so little training. And as we know from countless sources, "The Force is infinitely better than training or experience"
-Savage, by the time of S5, benefits from not being oneshot fodder for Sidious, and someone that Sidious actually had to work a little to engineer a defensive lapse in before he could gut him. Furthermore, as noted in Shadow Conspiracy, Savage had no idea what to expect from fighting someone of Sidious' calibre and even underestimated him twice - first his strength, then second and fatally, his speed, and it was actually that mistake which cost Savage, not even necessarily Sidious forcing a mistake. He also fights with quite visible skill and harmony with Maul, not getting in his way but actually complimenting him as they take Sidious on, which speaks wonders of how much he has improved since the Dooku fight in S3 where he is practically barging into Ventress.

Malgus does not have "every advantage" and those advantages he does have tend to be exaggerated. Savage is, as always, a terribly misunderstood combatant. For my money, he's better than Malgus in many of the areas Malgus himself leans on - raw physical power and power in the Force being chief among them. The possibility of Savage winning is real. Malgus' primary edge is his long experience and skill, which gives him more technical options for victory, whereas Savage is liked better by the Force and is a more intuitive fighter. It's an interesting match up however you slice it.

ILS wrote: We have a quote stating that due to a skill and training deficit, Maul is a "far more formidable foe" than Savage even as of Season 4 when he was way out of practice and adjusting to the new legs.

Credit goes to me for finding that quote 

HeartoftheForce wrote:Being inferior to Tau is pretty damming.

Citation needed. And why is it damning?

The lord of hunger wrote:considering malgus faced the outlander and managed to hold his own well he have the superior abilites

How does that make him superior to Savage?

Underachiever599 wrote:Malgus has almost every conceivable edge aside from weapon choice, and pure physical strength/durability.

Citation needed.

Also, have we ever seen Savage successfully block Force lightning? I don't recall him doing so against Sidious, and it was a major vulnerability against Dooku. Should Malgus start employing Force abilities instead of focusing on a pure head-to-head duel, I don't see any avenue for success on Oppress' part.

He did so in the deleted portion of the Sidious fight but its canonicity is dubious. However, IIRC, Savage's students in the Umbaran Academy knew Force lightning so its highly improbable he can't defend against it.

Isv wrote:Savage's ability to master Juyo in a few weeks, and contention with Anakin and Obi-wan is impressive enough. Add in the fact that Savage can blow Dooku across the room with his power blows and you have an incredibly formidable character, the thing with Malgus is (as we see in deceived) we know he is smart, but we also know he tries to go head to head with his foes and that just won't work, strength to strength is Savage's game. Overall Savage sweeps just like he did to master Halsey

How does any of that mean he beats Malgus?

ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote:I don't think there's any definitive link (Though as I've stated repeatedly, unlike users such as Az I don't see the necessity for one, nor do I think the standard that there's a requirement for a link should be applied)

Explain.

Malgus scales further off feats that are seemingly of a greater magnitude than the one's Opress scales off.

Citation needed.

I think we're being way too liberal with what qualifies as a reason. Most of these reasons are just an extension of someone's opinion (e.g. Malgus has better feats, so he wins) with no elaboration provided. Specifically, a justification for these views are needed:

This series aims to promote good faith and thorough versus discussion. Do not just state your opinion—justify it.

I call to remove inherently all detail-less posts which aren't really contributing to the thread.

Savage is a beast, but he's still sub-Maul.

Azronger wrote:

Zenwolf wrote:So inclined to go with Malgus on just having everything better in his corner.

Citation needed

Granted for myself, I'm just going off of his showings in TCW, not anything else. So that's....that, I'm sure everyone else doesn't have my mindset though.

Zenwolf wrote:

Azronger wrote:

Zenwolf wrote:So inclined to go with Malgus on just having everything better in his corner.

Citation needed

Granted for myself, I'm just going off of his showings in TCW, not anything else. So that's....that, I'm sure everyone else doesn't have my mindset though.

You didn't cite anything when I asked.

Azronger wrote:Citation needed.

I was referring to this quote specifically, which is the HoT’s commentary on his skill (note that this is FE Malgus, a by Onslaught he might be even better):

Malgus's lightsaber form was flawless, but he let his anger and desperation cloud his fighting. He faltered, and I followed through.

While Savage is certainly underrated when it comes to skill, but his limited training and other factors would certainly prevent him from having a “flawless technique”. 

MasterCilghal wrote:

Azronger wrote:Citation needed.

I was referring to this quote specifically, which is the HoT’s commentary on his skill (note that this is FE Malgus, a by Onslaught he might be even better):

Malgus's lightsaber form was flawless, but he let his anger and desperation cloud his fighting. He faltered, and I followed through.

That's the Hero's opinion, which doesn't necessarily mean Malgus's technique has no flaws - the Hero just couldn't identify any.

While Savage is certainly underrated when it comes to skill, but his limited training and other factors would certainly prevent him from having a “flawless technique”. 

Prove it.

Azronger wrote:

Zenwolf wrote:

Azronger wrote:

Zenwolf wrote:So inclined to go with Malgus on just having everything better in his corner.

Citation needed

Granted for myself, I'm just going off of his showings in TCW, not anything else. So that's....that, I'm sure everyone else doesn't have my mindset though.

You didn't cite anything when I asked.

Because I know you won't agree with it. In fact now that I think on it, I probably shouldn't have entered the discussion, since I'm sure I'm the only one with a different mindset than...well everyone when it comes to TCW.

But as far as strength goes, I'm sure Malgus has comparable feats which is where I think the two are closest maybe. I only recall Savage in TCW cracking stone before transformation and then later just sending people flying with his blows, but it's not like Malgus hasn't done that either with Leneer and Adraas.

Durability I only recall Savage's blaster bolts and withstanding Dooku's lighting. I'm pretty sure Malgus has far better than that, I mean the guy just straight up went through an exploding engine and getting blasted into a cliff after withstanding a grenade near point blank to his face. Among other things I'm sure.

Speed/agility...eh, I can't recall much for Savage here, at least nothing Malgus won't have trouble with.

Lightsaber/Martial Skill I suppose is fine.

Force Prowess, Savage's best TK feat from what I recall is pushing a starfighter, I feel like Malgus holding a dropship in place while its thrusters were engaged is better in that area.

So there's my view/opinion on it.

In Revan, Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik would have been useful allies to a weakened Revan due to being learned in the technique to resist his mental domination, with the trio having a 50/50 shot at taking Vitiate down. In Act III, however, the Hero of Tython was the only person who could face Vitiate because no one else was capable of resisting his telepathic influence, including a Lord Scourge with 300 years of experience and power growth over his novel iteration. This seems to suggest the Vitiate faced by the Hero was more powerful than the one faced by Revan - and unlike against Revan, Vitiate was outright "no match" for the Hero.

“This time I know his tricks and tactics,” Revan assured them. “I can shield my mind from being dominated by his will, and I can show you how to do the same.”


In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor?

Alone, probably not. With the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and even T3, however, he believed they stood a real chance of victory.


The three of them stood side by side, two Jedi and a Sith Lord against the Emperor.

“I expected better from you, Lord Scourge,” the Emperor said.

Scourge wondered if he was stalling for time so his Guard could break through the sealed door. There wasn’t much chance of that, however; by the time they broke into the throne room the battle would already be decided, one way or the other.

“He has seen the depths of your evil,” Revan declared. “He stands with us now.”

“Then he will die with you, as well.”

“You can’t defeat all three of us,” Revan said. “United, we are stronger than even you.”

“That remains to be seen,” the Emperor replied.

For Scourge, the universe suddenly seemed frozen in place, as if time itself had stopped. He realized he was at a crux in history; fate and destiny would be forever altered in the next few moments.

The Force washed over him in a wave, and a million possible futures flickered through his mind simultaneously. In some the Emperor was no more; in others he had transformed the entire galaxy into an empty wasteland. He saw both Revan’s triumph and defeat in the throne room; he saw variations of his own life and death played out over and over in every conceivable way, shape, and form.

He had to choose, but there was no way to know which was the most likely outcome, or what actions of his would lead to which results. Revan had said visions could guide the Jedi, but for Scourge they brought nothing but confusion.

The moment passed and the universe began to move again, though everything seemed to be happening in slow motion. Revan and Meetra stepped forward, ready to initiate the final confrontation. Scourge knew he had to act now; he had to make his choice.

In a sudden moment of clarity he saw the Emperor lying defeated at the feet of a powerful Jedi … but that Jedi was neither Revan nor Meetra. And the Sith Lord knew what he had to do.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2C9yMX6tmk&t=1m



Malgus, of course, having fought the Outlander in Onslaught, would scale above Revan reborn and by consequence Darth Malak and Exar Kun as well. While most of the fight is gameplay, his comments indicate it was a good struggle. What are everyone's thoughts on this potential scaling?

https://streamable.com/qlek5

"You thought I was destroyed all those years ago... I will show you the true nature of destruction!"

"None of you have the resolve--the strength to beat me!"

"Your resistance is commendable... but futile."

Malgus would scale over novel Vitiate too, and also interestingly, based on his comment about how the Outlander really does have the power needed to vanquish the Emperor (who in Malgus' mind wouldn't have been weakened but would have the same power as he did in Act II when he stomped the Jedi Strike team), it means that Malgus contended with an Act II Vitiate+ level Force wielder who had backup. Not to mention, with Malgus being a solid (probably near equal) fight for the HoT post-Act III, without the need for a nexus, that makes FE Malgus alone superior to Weakiate who is leagues beyond Novel Vitiate.

Onslaught Malgus > False Emperor Malgus > Weakiate > Novel Vitiate

SoR Revan (most powerful opponent quote) < Outlander ~ Act II Vitiate >/~ Onslaught Malgus

That actually makes for an interesting fight for Savage, seeing as how both Bane and TPM Maul also scale above Vitiate thanks to numerous supremacy quotes, and Savage has favourable comparisons to both of them.

Everything else aside (man . . .), the "most powerful opponent" quote was explicitly confirmed by Boyd to be time-dependent and not include Revan. That makes sense even without Boyd, as the default assumption to "X is the most powerful of Z" without further context wouldn't be Z is true throughout all of history.

Neither Bane nor Maul have credible scaling above Vitiate, either.

Pog

Az's comment was damn good, and it didn't even mention the Codex quote that confirms that Vitiate got progressively stronger with each appearance.

Geistalt wrote:Pog

Az's comment was damn good, and it didn't even mention the Codex quote that confirms that Vitiate got progressively stronger with each appearance.

This is a good point. I hadn't considered previously that the quote might apply to Surro as well, so the Hero's defeat of Surro would propel him above even full power vanilla Vitiate as of Ziost, before his power growth as the Outlander and before having a close match with Malgus.

Also, if you think my post was good, make sure to give it a star if you haven't already.

@The lord of hunger Stop spamming.

@Praxis As a consummate consumer of TOR content, what do you make of this battle and my proposed scaling above?

I suppose I should also call out the Savage savants as well. @Jake @Reynard (Ethanion)

@ILS

ILS wrote:" And while the deleted scene from the Lawless was probably deleted for a reason, the fact remains, they went as far as to animate Savage blocking the Lightning with his lightsaber - so the intention is clearly there that he learned how to do this."

In an interview, Filoni said the scene was deleted because of time.  That is the only reason why.  Also, it was not stated to be noncanon, such as the cut scene with Revan and Bane in S3.  There is an argument to be made that the scene, because it was published, is still canon (old canon), based on old canon treatment of cut scenes from canon film involving Lucas' input.  T and G canon were considered to be the "Lucas Pillar", which was one of the three pillars of canon Chee discussed.  The other two were the EU and the fandom.

Filoni briefly discussed that there is only so much time in one episode, and "The Lawless" had a lot of information which had to be packed into it.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Everything else aside (man . . .), the "most powerful opponent" quote was explicitly confirmed by Boyd to be time-dependent and not include Revan. That makes sense even without Boyd, as the default assumption to "X is the most powerful of Z" without further context wouldn't be Z is true throughout all of history.

Neither Bane nor Maul have credible scaling above Vitiate, either.

Not aimed solely toward Ant:

While I understand the importance of scaling, do you think it is important to consider the limitations of scalings, especially considering creator statements that feats and abilities are plot driven?  In asking this, I am not saying Bane or Maul > Vitiate, however, re: Vitiate as a Sith, an argument could be made for Maul being close to or within range (anywhere in a range, > = < ) of him.

Praxis wrote:@The lord of hunger Stop spamming.

Spamming?

To respond to az i decided to back up malgus becuase of his particular showings against strong opponents like The outlander

On the other discussions savage is still strong but i could not see a case of him to be at least>Tpm maul

S4 Savage is far below S4 Maul by the admission of Dave Filoni, Star Wars Insider 134 and Ultimate Star Wars, but this was before he received any Banite Sith training by Maul off screen, Maul noticed that Savage wasn't properly trained by Dooku, so it's logical that Savage improved even further after S4, but it's unlikely that he improved massively given the lack of emphasis on Savage's improvement, and what kind of cements this is that StarWars.com says that Savage's inexperience proved costly against Kenobi on Florrum in S5. But Savage is nonetheless a beast, his inferiority to Maul doesn't take away anything from him because Maul is just that good.

Latham2000 wrote:S4 Savage is far below S4 Maul by the admission of Dave Filoni, Star Wars Insider 134 and Ultimate Star Wars, but this was before he received any Banite Sith training by Maul off screen, Maul noticed that Savage wasn't properly trained by Dooku, so it's logical that Savage improved even further after S4, but it's unlikely that he improved massively given the lack of emphasis on Savage's improvement, and what kind of cements this is that StarWars.com says that Savage's inexperience proved costly against Kenobi on Florrum in S5. But Savage is nonetheless a beast, his inferiority to Maul doesn't take away anything from him because Maul is just that good.

@Latham2000
Filoni said what re: S4 Savage <<<< S4 Maul?


We don't even see Savage in S4 until he finds Maul, and then they disappear until S5.  The Sith Hunters takes place between four and five.  I'm not arguing with you.  I'd just like to know what was said considering there are three published quotes I can think of offhand which place Savage > Maul in S4.

Azronger wrote:@Praxis As a consummate consumer of TOR content, what do you make of this battle and my proposed scaling above?

I agree with your point on Revan and the Hero and it's actually an idea myself and others have been toying with so it's nice to see you adopt it independently as well.

Also just to add in some more HoT vs. Vitiate wank because why not:

The Emperor is noted to only be temporarily weakened and that by the time the Hero faces Vitiate after saving his allies Vitiate has had time to gather his strength. To what degree it's hard to say but Scourge's comments wouldn't have been warranted if it wasn't a significant portion.








The Hero is noted to be "too powerful" to be dominated by the Emperor's will.




Satele says that the HoT is better off facing Vitiate by himself rather than having the help of the entire Jedi Council.



I think it's also extremely likely that the Hero faced Vitiate in a far more potent DS nexus (the Dark Temple which was essentially a DS nexus within a DS nexus) than the one Revan faced Vitiate in. The Hero also fought through an army of Sith and Imperial Guard prior to engaging Vitiate.

---

As for using the in-game dialogue to try and say Malgus is close to the Outlander because of his Dun Möch is something that I'm not quite sold on however, and would need more evidence. When we take into consideration that in Onslaught we also have someone like Darth Savik who employs shit-talking while fighting the Outlander when she repeats the line "Ha! You should've finished the job!" throughout their fight in reference to their first encounter 10 years ago but then says that she doesn't believe she will ever be able to defeat the Outlander in a cutscene directly after their fight makes me hesitate to use Malgus' comments as a measure. Obviously Savik's Dun Möch isn't indicative of her ability in relation to the Outlander if she is saying she would never be able to defeat him regardless of how hard she trained, implying that the duel was never actually as close as she initially believed and didn't realize it until the Outlander ended the fight.





I think you could arguably make a similar case for Malgus where he goes from saying "I think I will kill you easily" before the fight coupled with his comments during the fight that Az posted to saying this:



Considering that Malgus knows about Vitiate wiping Ziost I would hesitate to say that Malgus believes he could come close to replicating something like that, but who knows maybe he does. When the Hero fights Malgus in False Emperor he claims that he is more powerful than the Emperor that the Hero defeated, but that statement comes with some baggage. Firstly, Malgus may be aware that the Hero defeated a "weakened" Vitiate, meaning that he believes that he isn't more powerful than the Emperor at full power, just his weakened version. Secondly, Malgus probably isn't fully aware of what the Emperor is capable of besides the legends, and as we saw from Malgus' comments about the stories surrounding the Outlander he isn't inclined to believe them until he witnesses it first hand, and by the time of False Emperor, Malgus hadn't witnessed the destruction of Ziost or any other feat from the Emperor for that matter. With this in mind, I don't think Malgus' comments from False Emperor would be fair to use by the time of Onslaught if anyone felt so inclined to.


Anyways, if you are willing to use Malgus' in-game dialogue as an indication of a close fight then you also have to extend that to what is probably the majority of the bosses the Outlander faces unless you take it on a case by case basis supported by the surrounding context. If you do want to extend the same standard to everyone else just know that it will take you to a place where almost everyone with some in-game dialogue would scale off of the Outlander and almost every fight he has with a boss is a close fight regardless if it's Malgus or Savik or some random guy from a Flashpoint which evidently isn't always the case. In general, I think it would be fair to say that a lightsider such as the Outlander most likely isn't going full-force (no pun intended) right out of the gate which could be used as a rationalization for some of these fights being perceivably close when in reality it was only "close" for a portion of the fight since the Outlander let it be and then got serious when he realized his opponent wouldn't back down. Point being is I'm not entirely convinced of just taking Malgus' or anyone else's in-game dialogue at face value and using it to try and evaluate how close the fight was and that we should instead consider the dialogue in its full context. Now I do think the in-game dialogue could prove to be meaningful based on how you interpret Malgus pushing the Outlander and co. over with TK, but my stance is that Malgus just caught the Outlander off-guard due to the fight essentially being over and that the Outlander didn't see Malgus as much of a threat by that point considering that after Malgus TK'd the Outlander he just got up and casually walked back towards Malgus without his weapon drawn right before Malgus decided to bring the big crane thing down.

However, I do also think you could also argue that the intent for Malgus is to probably be in the same ballpark as the Outlander, but to what extent is ambiguous and I also know you aren't really one for intent. Here is a quote from a Dark Council member (Head of Sith Intelligence) if the Imp version of the Outlander and Malgus fail to take the Meridian Complex:


I think we should also take into account that the Outlander and co. had just fought through an army of Sith and Imperial military before confronting Malgus, so they weren't exactly fresh by the time the fight rolled around. Granted Malgus also fought his way to the top of the spire but he also had his troops with him supporting him along the way and had time to briefly recover while he waited for the trio.

All that being said, I'm definitely open to being convinced on Malgus being close enough to the Outlander to the point where we could scale Malgus but I just need more; something more concrete that definitively demonstrates the gap between the two and how that gap compares to the one between Act III HoT and his Onslaught iteration.

Waiting for Kulvax to dismiss this as "exaggerated Outlander scaling"

Which would be more likely if we pitted Malgus and Ulic against each other