Re: Starkiller vs Darth Maul (melee combat only)

February 24th 2020, 9:43 am

@Latham2000 IG’s referring to this: https://imgur.com/a/ZfXwKQD This shows that S4 Savage >/~ TPM Maul.

February 24th 2020, 9:49 am

Blade_of_Dorin wrote:@Azronger
So the person that sent you those screenshots left out the screenshots of the author going back and debunking everything that was said in the above tweets? Cause that was a thing lol.

No one questioned whether it was n-canon or not, it’s just irrelevant, the whole fight was made solely to show the fans what would happen if TPM Maul and ANH Vader fought. This is backed by a multitude of sources. So while yes, it never ACTUALLY happened, but if this fight ever did happen, this is how it would play out, with Maul being Vader’s clear superior.

The first screenshot seems to also being misinterpreted. The question that was being asked was not “Could Vader have possibly killed Maul + The Prophets if he attacked them directly with the force?”, the question was “Were the prophets saying that Vader could maybe kill them + Maul with the force if he attacked them directly?”. The question that was asked was to clarify what the Prophets said could happen. Not if what they were saying was correct or not.

Thug screens?

February 24th 2020, 9:52 am

@Blade_of_Durin

That's true:

Cloaked66: About Ressurrection, Darth Maul was brought back specifically to kill Vader and replace him as Darth Sidious apprentice right? So was Maul prepared and/or powered up to duel Vader?

Ron Marz: Yes and Yes.

Cloaked66: Maul and the Prophets agreed that Vader had too much of the light in him, and yet, they were fighting in a Dark Side Nexus. Would that mean Maul was massively power boosted, by the prophets and the planet's Nexus, while Vader was actually weaker because of it?

Ron Marz: You're overthinking it a bit at this point. I'm glad you're engaged in the story, but ultimately it's just a story.

Cloaked66: And I understand that, but the thing is that it caused many controversies between fans, specially because many things in the EU that came after it changed the way of viewing that story completely, so I wanted to use your explanation to make things clearer.

Ron Marz: Not sure what came after it; I have no control over that, so it does not play any part in my story.

Cloaked66: But when talking about Ressurrection, plot-wise, was Vader nerfed by the circumstances or not?

Ron Marz: He won, so apparently not.

Cloaked66: Ron, I just have two last questions about Ressurrection for you, it seems that your answers created a pretty big tumult in the forum in which people were talking about that. May I ask them?

Ron Marz: Yes, but these are the last two, please.

Cloaked66: 1: If Vader attacked Maul with The Force to toss, shove or choke him would he just kill him like it was implied?
2: Did Maul held advantage on dueling because of his better mobility and preparation, meaning he exploited Vader's weakness?
Also sorry for being annoying

Ron Marz: 1) Hypothetical, so we really don't know.
2) Yes, Maul had better mobility, whereas Vader is like a tank.

https://twitter.com/LoCabbage/status/1227289825604227073

Even in this conversation, Marz literally tells this SW fan to stop overthinking when asked if Vader was weakened/nerfed and Maul was empowered/boosted, when he gets asked the same question a second time, he says "He won, so apparently not" clearly disconfirming the notion of Vader being weakened/nerfed, which is obvious because Vader literally says that his self hatred is what made him victorious in the comic itself, and when he gets asked a second time if Vader would've insta killed Maul if he resorted to Force use, he says that's "hypothetical, so we really don't know" clearly alluding that it's still speculation. Heck he even subtlety tells him to piss off at some point in the conversation.

And if we're going to appeal to Ron Marz's tweets and be consistent about it, you would also concede that Maul was real in the physical sense because Marz confirmed it twice in 2018.

February 24th 2020, 9:54 am

Blade_of_Dorin wrote:@Latham2000 IG’s referring to this: https://imgur.com/a/ZfXwKQD This shows that S4 Savage >/~ TPM Maul.

That's not referring to TPM Maul and S4 Savage. That's referring S4 Maul and S4 Savage because it was published before S5 aired, heck it even has a picture of Maul with cybernetic legs.

February 24th 2020, 9:55 am

@Latham2000 S4 Maul ~ TPM Maul lmfao.

February 24th 2020, 9:56 am

IG wrote:@Latham2000 S4 Maul ~ TPM Maul lmfao.

And? S4 Maul has been stated to be Savage's superior in 3 different sources i.e. Star Wars Insider, Ultimate Star Wars and Dave Filoni.

February 24th 2020, 10:03 am

So the person that sent you those screenshots left out the screenshots of the author going back and debunking everything that was said in the above tweets? Cause that was a thing lol.

Didn't happen. What Ron does say is:

1. Maul was prepared for the duel, confirming that he knew his environment, knew Vader's strengths and weaknesses, and so on.

About Ressurrection, Darth Maul was brought back specifically to kill Vader and replace him as Darth Sidious apprentice right? So was Maul prepared and/or powered up to duel Vader?

Ron Marz: Yes and Yes.

2. Pre-ANH Vader had the power to potentially kill the three Prophets as well as Maul with the Force. He used sabers because, as they said, it would lessen him in Sidious' and his own eyes.

Starkiller vs Darth Maul (melee combat only) - Page 3 Vader_10

3. Maul had an advantage due to his mobility and agility, an advantage only further bolstered by his environment.

Cloaked66:[size=35] 1: If Vader attacked Maul with The Force to toss, shove or choke him would he just kill him like it was implied?[/size]
[size=35]2: Did Maul held advantage on dueling because of his better mobility and preparation, meaning he exploited Vader's weakness?[/size]
[size=35]Also sorry for being annoying[/size]

Ron Marz:[size=35] 1) Hypothetical, so we really don't know.[/size]
[size=35]2) Yes, Maul had better mobility, whereas Vader is like a tank.[/size]

February 24th 2020, 10:07 am

Blade_of_Dorin wrote:@Azronger
So the person that sent you those screenshots left out the screenshots of the author going back and debunking everything that was said in the above tweets? Cause that was a thing lol.

If that's the case, then I wasn't aware of it. But I'd like the full context before I take back anything I've said.

No one questioned whether it was n-canon or not, it’s just irrelevant, the whole fight was made solely to show the fans what would happen if TPM Maul and ANH Vader fought. This is backed by a multitude of sources. So while yes, it never ACTUALLY happened, but if this fight ever did happen, this is how it would play out, with Maul being Vader’s clear superior.

Citation needed on those sources.

And no, it's not like TFU where the novelization is the true story but the other adaptations are still valid what-if scenarios, because the comic is explicitly non-canon. That's the single most important detail here. The supposed "intent" of a purely non-canon production has the exact same amount of weight as my fanfiction where Vader stomps Revan. Not that I care about intent even in canonical works (it's an arbitrary standard with no inherent value in the Holocron rankings this forum uses), but this is just scraping the bottom of the barrel, in all honesty.

The first screenshot seems to also being misinterpreted. The question that was being asked was not “Could Vader have possibly killed Maul + The Prophets if he attacked them directly with the force?”, the question was “Were the prophets saying that Vader could maybe kill them + Maul with the force if he attacked them directly?”. The question that was asked was to clarify what the Prophets said could happen. Not if what they were saying was correct or not.

I didn't misinterpret it. The author clarified what the Prophets were saying: that Vader might succeeding in slaying all four of them if he used the Force. From there it's not difficult to arrive at the conclusion that if they even suggest it as a possibility, then it's not too far-fetched of a scenario - they can fully sense his power, after all.

February 24th 2020, 10:13 am

Latham2000 wrote:@Blade_of_Durin

That's true:

Cloaked66: About Ressurrection, Darth Maul was brought back specifically to kill Vader and replace him as Darth Sidious apprentice right? So was Maul prepared and/or powered up to duel Vader?

Ron Marz: Yes and Yes.

Cloaked66: Maul and the Prophets agreed that Vader had too much of the light in him, and yet, they were fighting in a Dark Side Nexus. Would that mean Maul was massively power boosted, by the prophets and the planet's Nexus, while Vader was actually weaker because of it?

Ron Marz: You're overthinking it a bit at this point. I'm glad you're engaged in the story, but ultimately it's just a story.

Cloaked66: And I understand that, but the thing is that it caused many controversies between fans, specially because many things in the EU that came after it changed the way of viewing that story completely, so I wanted to use your explanation to make things clearer.

Ron Marz: Not sure what came after it; I have no control over that, so it does not play any part in my story.

Cloaked66: But when talking about Ressurrection, plot-wise, was Vader nerfed by the circumstances or not?

Ron Marz: He won, so apparently not.

Cloaked66: Ron, I just have two last questions about Ressurrection for you, it seems that your answers created a pretty big tumult in the forum in which people were talking about that. May I ask them?

Ron Marz: Yes, but these are the last two, please.

Cloaked66: 1: If Vader attacked Maul with The Force to toss, shove or choke him would he just kill him like it was implied?
2: Did Maul held advantage on dueling because of his better mobility and preparation, meaning he exploited Vader's weakness?
Also sorry for being annoying

Ron Marz: 1) Hypothetical, so we really don't know.
2) Yes, Maul had better mobility, whereas Vader is like a tank.

https://twitter.com/LoCabbage/status/1227289825604227073

Even in this conversation, Marz literally tells this SW fan to stop overthinking when asked if Vader was weakened/nerfed and Maul was empowered/boosted, when he gets asked the same question a second time, he says "He won, so apparently not" clearly disconfirming the notion of Vader being weakened/nerfed, which is obvious because Vader literally says that his self hatred is what made him victorious in the comic itself, and when he gets asked a second time if Vader would've insta killed Maul if he resorted to Force use, he says that's "hypothetical, so we really don't know" clearly alluding that it's still speculation. Heck he even subtlety tells him to piss off at some point in the conversation.

And if we're going to appeal to Ron Marz's tweets and be consistent about it, you would also concede that Maul was real in the physical sense because Marz confirmed it twice in 2018.

The only relevant rebuttal I'm getting from this is that he thinks it's unknown whether Vader would have succeeded in killing Maul with the Force. Other than that, he does say that Maul was "powered up" during the fight, so the intent guys out there should stop claiming this was baseline TPM Maul.

February 24th 2020, 10:22 am

Why is an N canon source even being discussed?

February 24th 2020, 10:24 am

@Azronger: "Powered up" is an ambigious term that doesn't necessarily mean amped, the guy who questioned Marzs didn't define what he meant by "powered up" in the tweet, on SW versus forums people would intepret it as "amped" but Ron Marz isn't a SW debater and he evidently shows that he doesn't know that that "powered up" means being empowered/boosted by the fact that he tells the other person to stop overthinking. And Matt Martin has said that what authors say on social media isn't gospel:

Starkiller vs Darth Maul (melee combat only) - Page 3 7158804-matt%20martin%20twitter%20social%20media%20not%20gospel%20canon

Starkiller vs Darth Maul (melee combat only) - Page 3 7158804-matt%20martin%20twitter%20social%20media%20not%20gospel%20canon

February 24th 2020, 10:24 am

KingofBlades wrote:Why is an N canon source even being discussed?

Because said N canon source became C canon source for a while.

February 24th 2020, 10:25 am

KingofBlades wrote:Why is an N canon source even being discussed?

That's kinda what Az and I are saying. It's ludicrous to begin with that we actually take this source as canon, but more than that is the idea that the INTENT! is for this to be Vader vs Maul so it holds sway. Az and I both agree it doesn't even exist in continuity, we are just pointing out the fallacy of INTENT!

February 24th 2020, 10:28 am

Latham2000 wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:Why is an N canon source even being discussed?

Because said N canon source became C canon source for a while.

If it's currently n canon, then whether or not it used to be c canon doesn't matter

February 24th 2020, 10:37 am

Latham2000 wrote:@Azronger: "Powered up" is an ambigious term that doesn't necessarily mean amped, the guy who questioned Marzs didn't define what he meant by "powered up" in the tweet, on SW versus forums people would intepret it as "amped" but Ron Marz isn't a SW debater and he evidently shows that he doesn't know that that "powered up" means being empowered/boosted by the fact that he tells the other person to stop overthinking.

How is it ambiguous? What other definitions could the term have if it doesn't mean Maul was operating beyond his baseline level? He tells the person to stop overthinking it when it came to the notion of Vader being weakened, but the question of Maul being powered up was met with a straightforward "yes."

And Matt Martin has said that what authors say on social media isn't gospel:

Well, that's obvious. It's the intent people who use the opinions of authors to dictate fights, even if it's about a literally non-canon comic. I'm merely responding in kind.

February 24th 2020, 10:37 am

KingofBlades wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:Why is an N canon source even being discussed?

Because said N canon source became C canon source for a while.

If it's currently n canon, then whether or not it used to be c canon doesn't matter

Well technically all of the Legends is n-canon at the moment Starkiller vs Darth Maul (melee combat only) - Page 3 1668617588

February 24th 2020, 10:48 am

@Azronger:

Well, that's obvious. It's the intent people who use the opinions of authors to dictate fights, even if it's about a literally non-canon comic. I'm merely responding in kind.

I wasn't appealing to Ron Marz' intent, I was appealing to Lucasfilm's intent.

"Star Wars Tales #9 sets out the answer the heated fan debate -- who's tougher: Darth Maul or Darth Vader? Sith doctrine clearly states that there can only be one survivor in this match." --- StarWars.com: September 2001 Comics.

This isn't from Twitter, it's from the old official Star Wars website.

February 24th 2020, 10:48 am

HellfireUnit wrote:Well technically all of the Legends is n-canon at the moment

Really?

February 24th 2020, 10:54 am

@Azronger:

How is it ambiguous? What other definitions could the term have if it doesn't mean Maul was operating beyond his baseline level?

Being at full power.

He tells the person to stop overthinking it when it came to the notion of Vader being weakened, but the question of Maul being powered up was met with a straightforward "yes."

He told the person to overthinking it when it came to both the notion of Vader being "nerfed" and Maul being "boosted", you're forgetting this part: "Maul and the Prophets agreed that Vader had too much of the light in him, and yet, they were fighting in a Dark Side Nexus. Would that mean Maul was massively power boosted, by the prophets and the planet's Nexus, while Vader was actually weaker because of it?"

Ron's response to the entire question was: "You're overthinking it a bit at this point. I'm glad you're engaged in the story, but ultimately it's just a story."

February 24th 2020, 11:18 am

@Latham2000

I wasn't appealing to Ron Marz' intent, I was appealing to Lucasfilm's intent.

This isn't from Twitter, it's from the old official Star Wars website.

All that says is that the comic sets out to answer the question of who'd win between Maul and Vader - the comic written by Ron Marz. Nothing in that article indicates that that is distinctly Lucasfilm's intent as opposed to the writers'.

Being at full power.

Direct me to the dictionary that allows for such an interpretation of the phrase "powered up."

He told the person to overthinking it when it came to both the notion of Vader being "nerfed" and Maul being "boosted", you're forgetting this part: "Maul and the Prophets agreed that Vader had too much of the light in him, and yet, they were fighting in a Dark Side Nexus. Would that mean Maul was massively power boosted, by the prophets and the planet's Nexus, while Vader was actually weaker because of it?"

Ron's response to the entire question was: "You're overthinking it a bit at this point. I'm glad you're engaged in the story, but ultimately it's just a story."

Fair, wasn't reading it carefully enough, but I'd still like proof that "powered up" is an equivocal phrase.

February 24th 2020, 11:40 am

@Azronger:

All that says is that the comic sets out to answer the question of who'd win between Maul and Vader - the comic written by Ron Marz. Nothing in that article indicates that that is distinctly Lucasfilm's intent as opposed to the writers'.

We aren't actually told whether it was Lucasfilm or Ron Marz who came up with the idea of the Maul vs Vader comic, but the comic itself was officially licensed, the old Star Wars website was obviously authorised by Lucasfilm editors, whereas Ron Marz tweets are written by Ron and no editors from Lucasfilm. That's the difference between using StarWars.com and Ron's tweets.

Direct me to the dictionary that allows for such an interpretation of the phrase "powered up."

Fair, wasn't reading it carefully enough, but I'd still like proof that "powered up" is an equivocal phrase.

That's what I meant, Ron didn't realise that by "powered up" meant "boosted" i.e. amped beyond baseline powers until the person asked if Maul was boosted.

I found was these definitions for "power(ed) up:

"the process in which something that needs energy or power to operate is turned on and prepares for use:

The first power-up of any laptop may require you to make choices.

extra abilities in a computer game, that you can earn or buy :

The player also can attract various power-ups, or game bonuses."

Source -- Cambridge Dictionary

"To cause to operate"

Source -- Dictionary.com

"When you power up something such as a computer or a machine, you connect it to a power supply and switch it on."

Source -- CollinsDictionary.com

power up

1. To begin functioning or operating after connecting to a power source. He began reading the memos for the day while waiting for the computer to power up.

2. To activate something, especially a computer or computer system, especially by connecting or prompting it to connect to a power source. In this usage, a noun or pronoun can be used between "power" and "up." I always sit down at my desk and have a cup of coffee before I power up my computer and start work for the day. OK, power the engines up and steer the plane onto the runway.

See also: power, up

Farlex Dictionary of Idioms. 2015 Farlex, Inc, all rights reserved.

power something up

to start something, such as an engine. You should power the engine up and let it run awhile before you drive away. Power up the engine and mow the grass.

See also: power, up

power up

to start an engine. Well, let's power up so we will be ready to leave with the others. It's time to power up and get going.

See also: power, up

McGraw-Hill Dictionary of American Idioms and Phrasal Verbs. 2002 by The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc.

power up

v.
1. To activate some device and prepare it for operation: The pilot powered up the engines and prepared to take off. I replaced the memory chip and powered the computer up and to see if it worked.
2. To start operating and become ready for use: Wait a few seconds for the computer to power up.

See also: power, up

Source -- Thefreedictionary.com

February 24th 2020, 12:14 pm

All of these reference machinery. Ron is talking about an organic being. The only definition you've posted that fits is

extra abilities in a computer game , that you can earn or buy :

The player also can attract various power-ups, or game bonuses ."

Source -- Cambridge Dictionary

Again, this suggests he was given a boost.

February 24th 2020, 12:36 pm

BoD wrote:All of these reference machinery. Ron is talking about an organic being. The only definition you've posted that fits is

extra abilities in a computer game , that you can earn or buy :

The player also can attract various power-ups, or game bonuses ."

Source -- Cambridge Dictionary

Again, this suggests he was given a boost.

That refers to video games, and Ron didn't say yes to the the Maul being boosted question, he told the person to stop overthinking, which shows that Ron didn't realise that the person meant powered up in the sense of being being boosted.

February 24th 2020, 2:40 pm

Isv wrote:

Azronger wrote:@IG The intent of my non-canon fanfiction where Vader stomps Revan was to show how a fight between those two would go. Concede and bow down.

Never change Az.

but seriously, this argument is bogus created by Ant and his friends to circlejerk off their anti-Vader agenda. The intent of Star Wars Infinities Return of the Jedi is to show what WOULD happen if one little thing changed from the original trilogy:

Now, I'm sure everyone who uses this INTENT! argument would disagree with ROTJ Vader stomping Luke when he decided to put in more effort, but obviously the INTENT! is that this is the same universe with just a SINGLE thing different:

So, I'm fully willing for Maul to be > Vader if you accept that Vader is also > Yoda, as shown by the INTENT! of Infinities

So yeah, Vader is < Maul based on intent and based on intent Vader is > Yoda years later.

THANKS INFINITIES!

I couldn’t have said that better myself, the reason I didn’t say that was because i was off the site because of RL problems.

February 24th 2020, 2:42 pm

@Isv Actually it was Ethan and Jake who made the argument, not ant. He explicitly mentioned he didn’t buy it much iirc.