Darth Traya vs Darth Malak

@Azronger Obviously, but if MW Revan concealing a lot of his power > Traya (Malachor), then it’s logical to assume that Meetra < MW Revan, or DR at the very least.

IG wrote:

Isv wrote:@KingofBlades

I want to see the actual quotes that you based your claims on. Your word means little to me.

Meetra claims that Revan had a "greater command of the force" than anybody she'd ever met. Considering she'd last seen him during the MW, it doesn't take a genius to put two and two together.

I've utterly eviscerated this horse manure once this week, don't make me repeat myself.

LadyKulvax wrote:

IG wrote:

Isv wrote:@KingofBlades

I want to see the actual quotes that you based your claims on. Your word means little to me.

Meetra claims that Revan had a "greater command of the force" than anybody she'd ever met. Considering she'd last seen him during the MW, it doesn't take a genius to put two and two together.

I've utterly eviscerated this horse manure once this week, don't make me repeat myself.

I'm sorry, so is somebody that is essentially KOTOR Revan, so completely LS, meaning they're hindered by the Kaas nexus, and also under powerful force suppressant drugs suddenly more powerful than Traya?

As if which version of Revan was the main point of contention...

LadyKulvax wrote:As if which version of Revan was the main point of contention...

The "command" of the force isn't a degree of mastery though. Why would Scourge be drawn to Revan's mastery? Especially if he's lost most of it along with his memories. It seems to me that you're using excessive mental gymnastics in order to prove a viewpoint that is justified in your eyes alone.

Or maybe because Darth Traya is demonstratably up with KotOR Revan/Malak and the idea that MW Revan > her is cancer of the worst order. Scourge could perfectly well be drawn to Revan's mastery of the Force, you've assumed that this is not possible when Scourge in the first place states as a point of impression that Revan understands the Force in ways he never could in the same damn novel.

@LadyKulvax:

Scourge could perfectly well be drawn to Revan's mastery of the Force, you've assumed that this is not possible when Scourge in the first place states as a point of impression that Revan understands the Force in ways he never could in the same damn novel.

The underlined has no relevance to the previous section...

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan wrote:The Jedi’s command of and connection to the Force was unlike anything Scourge had sensed in anyone else. Even though Revan was constantly drugged, it was impossible not to sense his strength. After years of studying him, Scourge had come to understand why the Jedi had such a fearsome reputation among the Sith. With men and women like Revan in their ranks, it was easy to see how they had beaten back the Sith invasion a thousand years earlier. And it confirmed what he already suspected: the Emperor’s plan to launch another invasion against the Republic at this point in time was tantamount to suicide.

However, it was more than the Jedi’s raw power that interested Scourge.

The quote from Meetra isn't talking about Scourge being drawn to Revan, because of his "understanding" of the Force which is what you're seemingly positing. What "command" actually means - and what Meetra is actually talking about - is illustrated in the above quote regarding Scourge's fascination to Revan. It's talking about Revan's "strength", or in other words, his "raw power". It's only afterwards (i.e. "however"), that the passage elaborates on Revan's unique understanding, and knowledge, making it clear it has nothing to do with the aforementioned quote regarding Revan's "command" of the Force:

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan wrote:Unlike all the instructors at the Academy, or even Nyriss herself, Revan had experienced both the light and dark sides of the Force. He had a unique perspective on its strengths and weaknesses, and Scourge was eager to learn from his experience.

Fyi, I'm not trolling this time, let's have an actual discussion. Hell, to really impress you I added a bunch of lovely colours - MP style.

Not even sure why you're so against MW Revan > Traya when we have quotes from Traya herself basically worshipping Revan's power (e.g. "heart of the Force").

NotAA3 wrote:@LadyKulvax:

Scourge could perfectly well be drawn to Revan's mastery of the Force, you've assumed that this is not possible when Scourge in the first place states as a point of impression that Revan understands the Force in ways he never could in the same damn novel.

The underlined has no relevance to the previous section...

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan wrote:The Jedi’s command of and connection to the Force was unlike anything Scourge had sensed in anyone else. Even though Revan was constantly drugged, it was impossible not to sense his strength. After years of studying him, Scourge had come to understand why the Jedi had such a fearsome reputation among the Sith. With men and women like Revan in their ranks, it was easy to see how they had beaten back the Sith invasion a thousand years earlier. And it confirmed what he already suspected: the Emperor’s plan to launch another invasion against the Republic at this point in time was tantamount to suicide.

However, it was more than the Jedi’s raw power that interested Scourge.

The quote from Meetra isn't talking about Scourge being drawn to Revan, because of his "understanding" of the Force which is what you're seemingly positing. What "command" actually means - and what Meetra is actually talking about - is illustrated in the above quote regarding Scourge's fascination to Revan. It's talking about Revan's "strength", or in other words, his "raw power". It's only afterwards (i.e. "however"), that the passage elaborates on Revan's unique understanding, and knowledge, making it clear it has nothing to do with the aforementioned quote regarding Revan's "command" of the Force:

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan wrote:Unlike all the instructors at the Academy, or even Nyriss herself, Revan had experienced both the light and dark sides of the Force. He had a unique perspective on its strengths and weaknesses, and Scourge was eager to learn from his experience.

Fyi, I'm not trolling this time, let's have an actual discussion. Hell, to really impress you I added a bunch of lovely colours - MP style.

You're going to realise eventually why exactly you just proved me right. I'll give you a hint:

The Jedi's command of, and connection to

@LadyKulvax

Running away with the goalposts as usual, I see.

Let's remember your original comment, which I *specifically* underlined in my last post. Let's try again:

Scourge could perfectly well be drawn to Revan's mastery of the Force, you've assumed that this is not possible when Scourge in the first place states as a point of impression that Revan understands the Force in ways he never could in the same damn novel.

I hope you realise that you referenced *understanding*, and I countered by pointing out the context isn't referring to that, but Revan's raw power, strength, etc. Yes, his connection and command both tie into that - it's not just command as a sole element - but this doesn't address the notion, that the context surrounding command *is* "raw power" and his "strength" in the Force *not* his understanding, as you originally claimed.

I didn't change any goal posts, not that you have the legs to score with so I don't see why I'd need to.

Meetra's defining reason for understanding Scourge's fascination is specifically stated to be due to her acknowledgement of his 'command of the Force'. Scourge's fascination is with both his command and his connection. Which you've so kindly proved is not one in the same. Now, just because Scourge considers both that does not mean that this somehow means Meetra is too. All you've done is proven that command of and connection to are not one in the same. You thought you'd somehow caught me out when in fact nothing you've said contradicts my point.

Scourge is fascinated by both his command and connection, Meetra understands his fascination due to acknowledging that Revan's command of the Force was greater than anyone else's.

All of the above is consistent with the fact Meetra literally doesn't believe the scope of Nihilus' power, after having met the Revan you're trying to scale off of Nihilus here. Then there's the fact that Traya, whilst worshipping Revan's power because of how self-sustaining and genuine it was, still considers Nihilus to be a magnitude beyond them and outright says that you can't comprehend the universe the same way herself, Meetra and Revan did. Then after all of this disbelief and consideration of Nihilus' power, when Meetra meets a starved Nihilus in person she realises he was actually far more powerful than she'd been led to believe up until that point.

Why am I apparently the only person here who actually remembers what was said in K2?

@LadyKulvax: I'll write out a full response either later today - when I get back from my walk - or tomorrow depending on my free time available, and desire to do so. Fyi, you still haven't really got to the core issue i.e. that your original claim was that Scourge was drawn to Revan because of his understanding of the Force and that's what "command" referenced, which I've proven false. I don't really care for the rest, I addressed a specific claim, and you're just responding with a bunch of info that doesn't have relevance to that claim.

Now, I think about it, I might not respond, because none of your post has any relevance to the original point of contention, though I do have a few disagreements.

You didn't disprove a thing, you took an insanely literal interpretation of my post and went after it. You still haven't actually proven anything. Meetra's passing thoughts don't put MW Revan > Traya and in actual feats or any other comparisons, Traya is just better than Malak in everything.

Lol no

LadyKulvax wrote:You didn't disprove a thing, you took an insanely literal interpretation of my post and went after it.

It's not an "insanely literal interpretation" of your post to take the word "understand" as meaning anything other than what it means, and then pointing out Revan's understanding of the Force was in no way related to his "command" of it.

This is just you dodging the subject matter at this point.

Meetra's passing thoughts don't put MW Revan > Traya and in actual feats or any other comparisons, Traya is just better than Malak in everything.

Which I'm sure is all bogus that I might eventually get down to addressing. For now, I'll just bask in my victory.

IG,

See that would've been simpler than everything you've said prior and it's still just as effective an argument.

Kreia one-shotted three Bastilas (four counting Lonna Vash) and drained their power. She one-shotted twenty elite Sith Assassins with no gesture besides a grin and effortlessly chokes out Sion until he uses his safe word, the same Sion who walked off a dark Force wave from an enraged Nihilus which destroyed bridge supports and disintegrated armoured escorts. Oh and pretty much effortlessly stomping the combined Lost Jedi; Bao-Dur, Mical, Brianna, Visas Marr and Atton Rand.

*Atton, who could defeat Sion with varying degrees of difficulty.
*Visas, the fourth most powerful and skilled Sith in the entire Triumvirate and whose Force lightning could easily clear out an entire Sith camp faster than a Mandalorian could run 50 meters.
*Mical, who can defeat Atton Rand when attacked by him.
*Brianna, who can hold her own against Atris after blitzing the five Handmaidens.
*Bao-Dur whose mind is impervious to the telepathic manipulations of Darth-fvcking-Traya.

All of them were capable of defeating three Sith Masters who were weilding the energies of the Sarcophagus of Freedon Nadd. The failure to control this energy disintegrated a fourth, lesser Sith master on contact upon recieving said power.

Then there's Darth Revan hiding the power of Malachor V from Darth Malak whereas he fully shared the Star Forge. Revan also sees Malachor V as the best place to corrupt Jedi and form his weird Sith Shadow Order which Malak also never knew about. So not only is Traya by all available indications > Malak, but through Darth Revan and general common sense, Malachor V > Star Forge as a nexus.

NotAA3,

Lol no, you keep insisting I'm dodging when you literally only proved that I'm correct. I pointed to Scourge's fascination because it says exactly what I meant. Scourge is fascinated by two things, one of those is why Meetra understands Scourge's reasoning. Your post proved I'm right about command of the Force not being synonymous with power. You're literally the Black Knight from Monty Python and the Holy Grail at this point.

@LadyKulvax

Lol no, you keep insisting I'm dodging when you literally only proved that I'm correct.

Lol, no. Mastery and understanding have nothing to do with this as I proved with the quote I cited (which was your original claim). Scourge explicitly links command and connection to Revan's "strength" and "raw power".

I pointed to Scourge's fascination because it says exactly what I meant. Scourge is fascinated by two things, one of those is why Meetra understands Scourge's reasoning. Your post proved I'm right about command of the Force not being synonymous with power.

If "command" isn't associated with power then why is it that Scourge literally links it with it, as already elaborated on? And how is it that Scourge can "sense" Revan's "command of the Force" if it's not power related? Is Scourge sensing Revan's mastery, and understanding lol?

You're totally dodging the point and applying transparent mental gymnastics to worm around a pretty obvious fact.

The problem you're coming across is assuming that knowledge - mastery - command of the Force, can't inform upon and increase one's raw power. When something like mental state or outlook can literally decide how much power someone can apply, then that's blatantly incorrect.

But I have neither the years it requires or the desire to indulge you. You can wait for your education.

@LadyKulvax

Let's break this down (with more colours, yay!):

The problem you're coming across is assuming that knowledge - mastery - command of the Force, can't inform upon and increase one's raw power. When something like mental state or outlook can literally decide how much power someone can apply, then that's blatantly incorrect.

Orange Text: Knowledge has already been addressed. Scourge talks about that *after* referencing Revan's command of the Force, and he explicitly links the latter with "raw power", and "strength".

Green Text: Mastery doesn't fall under the topic of discussion. Scourge talks about "sensing" Revan's command of the Force, and Mastery can't be sensed lol.

Blue Text: And this is where it gets problematic. Mastery doesn't inform us of, nor increase ones "raw power" - Mastery is to do with how well they can express that power in combat (once again this is Scourge sensing Revan's strength not witnessing it in combat). A similar principle applies to Knowledge - it increases the number of techniques one can use, it's not informative of power.

But I have neither the years it requires or the desire to indulge you. You can wait for your education.

A concession, how nice.

I appreciate that, but so far you've provided no reason for me to accept the quote as anything other than power given the context.