Krayt V Revan

ILS wrote:Arguments for Revan?

He turned Nyriss to ash so he's above RotS Sidious.

Well Azronger became a cuck in his spare time or is trolling either or, Revan is inferior to Muur whom Krayt surpassed when he was reborn.

The same Muur who was beneath SF Malak you mean? The guy who lost to KOTOR Revan who's weaker than his Novel self several times over?

DC77 wrote:The same Muur who was beneath SF Malak you mean? The guy who lost to KOTOR Revan who's weaker than his Novel self several times over?

Sorry? Can you substantiate physical Muur's power?
The Spirit Muur scales over Vong Krayt, who by rough estimation should be Plaguies level...

The Malak who was above Muur was only above physical muur, it's noted that the threat grew over centuries, you dumbass. So Muur grows, your argument blows.

DarthAnt66 wrote:

Azronger wrote:

ILS wrote:Arguments for Revan?

He turned Nyriss to ash so he's above RotS Sidious.

Glad you agree.

For the record, Muur is complete shit.

Azronger wrote:For the record, Muur is complete shit.

Relatively speaking.

Azronger wrote:For the record, Muur is complete shit.

I mean I disagree tbh, he has some great feats and good scaling, but I was always more accepting of ludicrous scaling chains than the great Azronger. An Ironic statement if you think about it

ILS wrote:Arguments for Revan?

TBH, Ima wait this one out and see where it takes me. I'm not at all invested enough in this to actually bother arguing the point.

LSDMB wrote:

ILS wrote:Arguments for Revan?

TBH, Ima wait this one out and see where it takes me. I'm not at all invested enough in this to actually bother arguing the point.

Well, did you have an argument in mind at all?

In-sidiousvader wrote:

DC77 wrote:The same Muur who was beneath SF Malak you mean? The guy who lost to KOTOR Revan who's weaker than his Novel self several times over?

Sorry? Can you substantiate physical Muur's power?
The Spirit Muur scales over Vong Krayt, who by rough estimation should be Plaguies level...

The Malak who was above Muur was only above physical muur, it's noted that the threat grew over centuries, you dumbass. So Muur grows, your argument blows.

There is no quote that speaks of Muur's power that doesn't also apply to the vessel he's using to funnel his strength through... that I am aware of. For over 4100 years the only way Muur could channel his strength - and be considered to be Muur acting on his own - was through Celeste Morne. What that means exactly, is that anytime Muur was flaunting his power, it was through Celeste, though that's not necessarily true in reverse. For all intents and purposes Celeste WAS Muur and, anytime Muur's power flared up it was through her body. IE, you can't separate anything Muur ever did - aside from Rakghouls - from Celeste. She was a conduit for Muur's power in addition to her own power. His power or his character was never acting on its own at any time in that story, outside flashbacks to him in his original body.

So, once we understand this, we can move on to speaking on Celeste by herself. Celeste at her base level was capable of giving Vader somewhat of a fight on her own for an extended period of time. As a fellow Vader fan, I would expect you to find this impressive no matter how many issues you perceive with the fight; fighting Vader for over 10 pages is no small task no matter how much effort he puts into it, agreed? So, Celeste is a sub-Vader level being with no Muur amping, but at a high enough level to give an adequate fight to 19BBY Vader.
Our simple scale here would then be:

Base Celeste < Vader

Easy to understand, but still allows Vader to be comfortably above her. Which is about how the fight went.

So, what do Force Users do over time? That's right, they grow in power. Celeste was only a Jedi Knight at the time, so we can assume she had the potential to become a Master. That doesn't put qualifiable growth to her, but it does mean her power was still unfulfilled in her natural life. IE she could grow normally. One of the main deterrents to this growth is old age. Celeste, however, didn't have to worry about old age impeding her growth or force usage as she didn't age. This meant she stayed in a very capable physical state/age for 130 years. Perfect for growing stronger. Of which she did, and she was shown fairly wise and, was learning how to control the amulet; so it'd be a fool's errand to assume her power didn't grow stronger when she can tap into esoteric amulets without ceding control to Muur.

Muur on the other hand only wanted to get free of her because he was trapped in the Amulet this entire time; unable to enact his own will without Celeste's permission.



So, with these circumstances in place, why would we ever assume that Muur was the one that was growing in power in any quote that may imply such? If we're assuming growth happened, then we should be freely accepting that the very live and well Celeste Morne could and would grow in power. If we point to Muur's spirit growing in power with no evidence specifically stating this, then we should have no problem with Celeste growing.

If Celeste grows stronger, that means Muur grows stronger. It doesn't mean Muur's actual spirit grows stronger; it means once Muur eventually takes over that the power available to him is higher. Semantics, sure, but very important when discussing the specifics of the being that is Celeste Morne.

To simplify this:

Jedi Knight level Celeste + Muur = Muur
Jedi Knight level Celeste + 130 years of training + Muur = Muur

Celeste Morne could get 1 percent stronger, or ten times her original strength. As long as Muur still has the capability to take over and act through her, that still makes the threat Karness Muur. Considering she was a neutral force on her own, she wasn't a threat, and she wasn't a Sith Lord. But Karness Muur using her body was very much all of the above.

At the start, maybe he was above her, but in the end, she could have eclipsed him utterly and it still wouldn't change a thing. She could still draw on his strength and powers to amplify her own. She could even give up her control and Muur could utilize his entire power in conjuncture with her own. And this is setting aside things like Dark Side amping, but rather just assuming the dark power contained in the amulet was equal to Muur's original power. Everything she did was something Muur could accomplish had he taken over.

The danger was entirely Muur, but that doesn't mean it was all Muur's power. Celeste was merely a powerful pawn that presented no danger on her own. She wasn't a well known enough character to detach from Muur when speaking of their power. She was created and introduced to spread the word of Muur.





This is also setting aside things like the context of said quotes and the issues presented within the stories. For example, in the last leg of Vector, Muur was in a position to take over Krayt's body, and be far and away the most powerful Sith in the galaxy with the ability to turn his entire army into Rakghouls. Is this not a huge threat, is this not a huge danger, is this not a very dangerous power? Hence one of the issues with just looking at one quote and assuming this gives you the full story. Never before in Vector was Muur in a more advantageous position to usurp everything. He was never more dangerous than right before he died.






Or to answer your post without getting into the nitty-gritty details:

Muur was never specifically stated to grow above his physical self. I don't even think Muur was stated to grow in power at all. All he wanted to do was gain a body that would relinquish complete control so he could spread Rakhouls and Sith shit about. He was very confident about his own power as long as he had a suitable vessel and Rakghouls. This doesn't mean his power was above everyone, it just means he himself thought so (like assuming any Sith Lord would be above Krayt that he could have possibly fought).

Assuming Revan (SoR). Revan wins in one hell of a fight

krayt imo

Revan, tbh.