Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

Darth caedus is better

@Redling No

Darth Space Lizard beats Darth Kylo Ren under any circumstances

@Redling Welcome to the forum. From where do you hail?

So this is something I'm interested in hearing from the Caedus wankers. Apparently an off-hand comment and perhaps some other summarising commentaries/descriptions of Caedus' interactions with Luke are enough as a form of evidence to suggest that Caedus can give Luke a good fight, or hell, even scale above TUF Luke.



To be clear, that's a quote from C3PO being cited as evidence in favour of Caedus, and in relation to Legacy of the Force Luke.



Here we have the following description of the Apoc duel.

Luke "seeks help" to defeat Abeloth. He recognizes Krayt as a "powerful Sith" and they "band together" to "battle a common threat". "Together Luke and [Krayt]" slay Abeloth." The chief Caedus wanker/Krayt opponent Elm has gone on record saying he thinks there is a FotJ Luke - pre-boost TPM Sidious size gap between Luke and Krayt, or to put it another way, "Krayt is nowhere near Luke". You would think if such a gaping disparity really existed it would have been reflected in the supplementary material above, yet, the only prose descriptions that compare Luke and Krayt or talk about Krayt himself draw comparisons between the two or reflect well on Krayt. Sure, nothing says "Krayt and Luke are equals", but it also doesn't say, "Krayt gets carried to victory by Luke" or that he's far weaker.

Again, if we are to rely on prose descriptions, lets look at how Krayt is portrayed in Apoc:

As the silhouette drew nearer, it began to resemble a man Luke had seen many years before, a man who had appeared only in his dreams-and always shortly before he awoke feeling uneasy and frightened.

Luke glanced back at Mara, then said, “It’s him.”

“Who?”

“The man I kept seeing in my dreams, before Jacen turned Sith.”

He tried to continue the motion and bring it up to deliver a blast of Force energy, but Abeloth had already launched her own attack by then, delivering a bolt of Force lightning that blasted straight through the stranger into Luke.

The white points at the bottom of Abeloth’s eyes flared into nests of blue lightning, [because Vestara is blasting her avatar with font-amped Lightning] which kept growing larger and flashing brighter until they finally spilled out of the sockets to engulf her whole head. Luke hurled another blast of Force energy in her direction, then braced himself to take the most devastating counterattack yet. The counterattack never came.

Instead, the Force blast rocked Abeloth up on one leg, where she hung teetering over the Lake of Apparitions for a thousand heartbeats. Luke’s chest was a searing ache around a fist-sized scorch hole, and his Force essence was bleeding out from a dozen smaller wounds, leaving a crescent of twinkling light spread across the dark water. He sprang anyway.

Abeloth only seemed to sag, and it appeared that she might tumble into the water in the eternity it was taking to reach her. But that would have been too easy. Luke and the Sith stranger had been hurling Force attacks at her for a lifetime-or perhaps it was a mere eyeblink-and this was the first time she had shown any reaction. [again, because Vestara blasted her avatar with lightning, which clearly left her open for Luke's blast to off-balance her - otherwise both Luke and Krayt were having no effect

The draining seemed to continue for days; then the stranger threw back his head and screamed in anguish, and it suddenly seemed that only a breath had passed. Shiny black Force energy began to pour from the Sith’s wounds into the lake, spreading outward around them in an oily slick so hot the water began to steam and hiss. Still, the stranger continued to drain Abeloth, and Luke realized that he was not being betrayed-the Sith was suffering as much damage from the attack as was Luke.

Luke slipped his arm down around her throat and pulled hard, merging his form into hers, doing his best to keep her under control.

“Keep going,” Luke urged the stranger. “Pull harder!”

In the next thought Abeloth was simply there in front of the stranger, driving a ball of tentacles deep into him. Luke sprang forward to help-and felt a blistering iciness slide deep into his own chest. His entire right side flared into cold anguish, and the tentacles began to dig and grab, tearing him apart inside in a way no lightsaber or blaster ever could.

Then she simply fell away, her still-balled tentacles tearing free of both Luke and the stranger…each clutching a handful of dripping, pulsing Force essence.

The stranger collapsed with a gaping hole in his chest. Luke felt his own form grow limp and weak, and he sensed his mouth falling open to scream, then his whole body was falling, weak and aching for breath.

“She wounded him, too.” Mara’s other hand rose out of the water and pointed past Luke’s head, toward the tattooed Sith who had helped Luke kill Abeloth.

The tattooed man stopped and whirled, and Luke found himself preparing to dodge a fork of Force lightning. But the stranger was in no better shape to fight than Luke. He had a gaping wound in his chest, just like Luke, and Luke could see that his entire form was shuddering.

So the Dark Man from Luke's dreams always made him wake up feeling "uneasy and frightened", both are hit with a bolt of lightning by Abeloth, neither of their attacks have any effect on her until Vestara attacks her avatar,  Luke realizes that the Sith is "suffering as much damage" as Luke himself from performing the drain, Luke pulls harder on Abeloth and urges Krayt to do the same as he struggles to keep her under control (even though we know Krayt is already being damaged at least as much as Luke, yet, Luke wants Krayt to drain Abeloth harder, but not Luke himself),  Abeloth drives her tentacles into both Krayt and Luke, they both have a gaping chest wound, clutching their essence to their chests, and both collapse at the same time, Mara points out that "Abeloth wounded him too", and it's said Krayt "helped Luke kill Abeloth" and finally "the stranger was in no better shape to fight than Luke. He had a gaping wound in his chest, just like Luke"

So I'm wondering, proponents of the idea that Luke would destroy Krayt, and that Krayt is nowhere near Luke... what part of either Apocalypse or the Essential Reader's companion did I skim over that made this clear to us? You know, seeing as Troy Denning has full artistic license to depict these characters however he likes, that means he had ample opportunities to create divisions between them - he could have made it explicitly clear that Luke was doing better under worse conditions, that he was stronger, if not much stronger, than Krayt, he could have depicted only Luke as taking certain attacks rather than them both, he could have refrained from constantly drawing attention to the fact that Krayt was helping Luke to kill Abeloth, or that "just like Luke" he was wounded with a gaping chest wound... instead he found no shortage of ways to either compare Luke and Krayt or depict Krayt positively.

Note: I wouldn't actually use half of this stuff to prove Krayt was in Luke's tier, especially in isolation. Hence why I haven't historically. But it's obvious what Denning's intent is and how Hidalgo interpreted that intent when putting together the Apocalypse summary - even compared to Luke, Krayt is a powerful Sith and played a vital part in taking down Abeloth. Across these books there have been plenty of power scaling type descriptions for these characters: Kyle and Saba were described as challenges for Caedus whereas other characters in comparison were described as weak. Vol has much the power of Luke, Abeloth is hyperbolically described as having 12 times his strength. Luke gauges the strength of certain characters he fights, such as Viun Galaan, compared to Kyp or Kyle, and even compares a prior iteration of himself to the person he is currently fighting. So, again, what part of Apocalypse did I miss that spelled out for us that Krayt is not in Luke's tier?

But the main point here: if an offhand quote from C3PO is supposed to be a relevant piece of evidence, how in the name of all that is holy can you read Apocalypse and think Caedus is depicted as more powerful than Krayt? Like, I'm a fan of using the most solid evidence possible, mostly due to the impressive amount of scrutiny my Krayt arguments have gotten over time, so I have strayed away from the author intent and holistics. But, if the opposition are going to start mentioning that type of vague but potentially compelling evidence for their own arguments, then the point may as well be made that even if you go down that route, Krayt still wins in spades. So it really depends on your approach - if you want to lean more on holistics, narrative, author intent, which is more vague but frankly more compelling from a storytelling point of view, Krayt 100% wins in spades in this department, he has a mountain of evidence to sit on. If you want to be extremely reductionist about everything, Krayt is still looking very good after Apoc, and now all of your own arguments have be to subjected to extreme reductionist methodology - no insane scaling chains, no wanking every minor power growth or tertiary factor, just rock solid, undeniable evidence for every minor claim you make. Oh... and just as a fun addendum, there's a trading card game that depicts Vong Krayt as head and shoulders more powerful than a wide range of characters including Caedus and Dooku... so he even wins game stats in an awful iteration of himself.

To clarify: I don't really think Krayt is Luke's "equal". There's a pretty compelling reason for this aside from everything else: Jedi have to work harder than Sith to get the same results. Yoda would have been more powerful than Sidious during the PT if he was as committed to the dark side, as an example. Even when Krayt is Reborn I wouldn't really think he is "equal" to Luke, although frankly since pretty much everyone here likes to create scaling chains, Reborn Krayt is very noticeably superior to any prior version of himself, which helps to close the gap between himself and Luke even more - and the more extreme you make your scaling chains the more powerful this argument becomes. But it's clear he's in his tier of power for the sake of a fight even without being his equal. And this is FotJ Luke we're talking about - at a point in time where he can, on-demand, summon his unmitigated raw power and cause every cell in his body to overload with energy. He's pretty much better than any prior version of himself here - DE, JA, TUF, DN, LotF.

Anyway, I have some new shit cooking that focuses more on Legacy itself rather than just Apoc, but I've had this post in mind and coming across the Essential Readers' Companion quotes and seeing the recent Caedus ~ Luke arguments, it seemed like a good time for it. I encourage anyone reading this not to be obtuse and start countering all of the quotes above assuming I'm using them to say Krayt is equal to Luke... I'm just making a point on methodology and consistency.

Krayt perfected his combat techniques over many decades and his skills with telekinesis and Sith lightning far outstripped those of any Sith of his era.

—Star Wars Insider #113


Legacy of the Force is still the "Legacy era" Vong Krayt still wins

Isv wrote:

Krayt perfected his combat techniques over many decades and his skills with telekinesis and Sith lightning far outstripped those of any Sith of his era.

—Star Wars Insider #113


Legacy of the Force is still the "Legacy era" Vong Krayt still wins

Problem with that accolade is that the Legacy Era Campaign Guide places the Legacy era as 130 ABY onwards. Otherwise there might be merit to what you're suggesting.

130ABY is when "his era" begins IMO as that's when he takes over the galaxy.

@ILS @DarthAnt66:

Both of you have constructed points on the subject of Caedus that throw into doubt the legitimacy of Juke scaling. Naturally, as his most dedicated supporter, I feel obligated to respond to the claims you two have put forth. My objective here will be to dispell the doubts you previously held to the best of my ability, and persuade you both of the authenticity of the scaling in question. To preface, I don't believe that Caedus scales to TUF, DN or even DE Luke, but rather the Luke Caedus duelled during the events of Inferno. My core argument is, in essence, that Caedus is capable of matching the same Luke that blitzed him in Inferno (Via Juke comparisons). Your reasoning for tossing out this particular line of thinking appears to be predicated on the following notions (Apologies if I missed any):

1) Caedus proving incapable of coming to the realisation that it was not Jaina, but Luke that he was duelling isn't proof they were on the same level due to Luke's fluctuations.

2) Luke is distributing his power across multiple acts, and thus his full potency was probably not fuelling Jaina throughout the protracted duel she had with her brother.

3) Even if Luke is using the same power as Juke, his mastery would be comparable far greater.

4) Luke's particular style is perfect for dealing with an adversary like Caedus, in stark contrast to Jaina's.

I'll be responding to each of them in turn throughout the post. Let's begin:

1) Caedus proving incapable of coming to the realisation that it was not Jaina, but Luke that he was duelling isn't proof they were on the same level due to Luke's fluctuations.

I agree with the premise, the idea that Caedus being aware of Luke's inconsistent power levels means that Juke passing as him doesn't speak to her being comparable to TUF, DN or DE Luke, she could be operating at any level Caedus has seen Luke performing at and it would still fly. That being said, what's notable here is that this premise actually benefits the larger case. Caedus knows Luke fluctuates and therefore won't apply standards for the outcome of the duel at random... right? Why is it then, that after carefully analysing Juke's style in the opening exchange, and then realising that it's Luke (Or so he thinks) before going blow for blow a few more times, that his immediate response is a comparison with the last duel?

Legacy Of The Force Invincible wrote:The last time he had fought Luke, he had started with a painful kidney wound but two good arms-and barely managed to survive. Now, with a relatively bearable shoulder wound and a single good arm, he had to do more than survive, he had to prevail-because now there would be no mercy at the last minute. This time, his uncle would not care whether he survived as long as Caedus died, because now Luke knew the truth about who had killed his wife.

He has over a decades worth of Luke showings to point to as evidence of Luke's current level, but his analysis of the situation at hand is that Juke is fighting on the same calibre as the Luke he duelled in Inferno, and that he'll have to do "more" than he did then. He's explicitly contrasting this duel with the last, despite being well aware Luke's capabilities alter on a regular basis depending on mindset and effort. Every other point you two have made is subject to this initial rebuttal, as none of them are concrete enough to get round it, but I'll continue nonetheless to fully hit the nail home.

2) Luke is distributing his power across multiple acts, and thus his full potency was probably not fuelling Jaina throughout the protracted duel she had with her brother.

Given the feats Luke was performing are largely insignificant, and things he has replicated without much difficulty in the past, I'm extraordinarily doubtful that Luke's not able to amp Jaina to the level established in point one. Will it be Luke's full power in Jaina? No, but as evidenced by Luke's struggle to draw upon the force properly as a result of the emotional shock caused by seeing his once beloved Nephew torture his Son + Caedus's later musings in Revelation, Luke as of the duel is but a fraction of his peak self in applicable power, so even a Luke splitting himself multiple ways should at least be capable of matching that output.

3) Even if Luke is using the same power as Juke, his mastery would be comparable far greater.

I don't think it's likely that for all her inability to wield strength similar to that of her uncle, her mastery was anywhere near as poor as Luke's in Inferno. Ant himself described Luke in that duel as in one of the "worst mental states in SW" and Fury notes that Luke is actively helpless, struggling to draw upon the force due to the events that took place. And that struggle is taking place far after the duel. Imagine what it must have been like initially:

Legacy Of The Force: Fury wrote:Yoda had told Luke that electrical shocks, applied at different intensities and at irregular but frequent intervals, would prevent a Jedi from concentrating, from channeling the Force. They could render a Jedi helpless.

But Yoda had never told Luke that emotional shocks could do the same thing.

They could. And just as no amount of self-control would allow a Jedi to ignore the effects of electrical shocks on his body, neither could self-control keep Luke safely out of his memories. Every few moments a memory, freshly applied like a current-bearing wire on his skin, would yank him out of the here and now and propel him into the recent past.

Boarding the Anakin Solo. Finding Jacen torturing—torturing—Luke’s only child, his son Ben. The duel that followed, Luke against the nephew he’d once loved…

But regardless both of the above points, as noted prior, are still subject to the initial rebuttal contained within point one.

4) Luke's particular style is perfect for dealing with an adversary like Caedus, in stark contrast to Jaina's.

As far as this is concerned, the reasoning for it appears to be based on Caedus having a specific technique that enhances his reflexes, so a more technical approach should be used to bypass it. The actual evidence for this claim is minimal, and when looking at the mechanics of the technique as shown in the duel contained in the novel, it's abundantly clear that a more ferocious approach is actually beneficial, as opposed to detrimental. The technique allows Caedus to see all the moves his opposition will make before they're actually made to a greater extent. Technique won't help there. Speed is the deciding factor, and that's shown a multitude of times throughout, with Caedus getting kicked so fast he can't see it coming, and barely blocking her strikes specifically as a result of the ferocity and speed of her assault. Luke's normal approach would have simply allowed Caedus to predict all his moves and counter them efficiently while gaining breathing room. By contrast, Jaina's allow her to smash him down before he can gain space to breathe. Hence his desire to always try to shift the distance between him and Juke, with him attempting to make the gap wider repeatedly. Her mando training further enforces this approach, adding another variable Caedus has to deal with. Moreover, in spite of the different styles, the Luke Caedus duelled himself was hardly the shining example of technical skill. As ILS once explained in detail to me (Operating under the assumption he'll have no issue accepting this stance given the aformentioned), he was only interested in dealing damage to Caedus, not caring how much he took in return, actively relishing in the pain. As if that wasn't all enough, as seen throughout the lore, the force is ultimately what makes the difference, not the skill with a blade.

And in case you want to try the stipulations of the fight next, Caedus honestly comes out looking better. In spite of her best efforts, she goes even against him in number of physical strikes landed, and cannot pentrate his guard in pure sabers. Her only edge comes upon using the force, which is irrelevant to the comparison with the Inferno fight, but also something Caedus does on her later when he disables her with FL (Which should have been his victory but only accomplished a draw due to Juke taking a second weapon not availible to her on neutral ground). It's evident that whoever wins is whoever uses the force first under the right circumstances, which they have both demonstrated they can do. Only thing is, Caedus has a busted arm going in, Juke doesn't. So yes, Caedus is better than Juke, and by extension Inferno Luke as of the duel he had with his Nephew, in that particular mental state.

On the actual topic at hand Krayt wins both by comparisons of feats and holistics. Caedus makes him work for it though, each and every time.