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SeturnaLevel One
Starkiller vs Vader(Rematch)
February 14th 2020, 6:33 am
Both at their PEAK
Battle takes place in the emperor’s throne room
Battle takes place in the emperor’s throne room
BreakofDawnLevel Seven
Re: Starkiller vs Vader(Rematch)
February 14th 2020, 7:18 am
At their peak? Vader in a goodish fight.
HellfireUnitLevel Six
Re: Starkiller vs Vader(Rematch)
February 14th 2020, 7:57 am
IG wrote:SK stomps lol.
What is your reasoning for this claim? A far weaker Vader didn't get stomped by Marek, what makes you think that peak Vader would be stomped?
CuckedCurryLevel Four
Re: Starkiller vs Vader(Rematch)
February 14th 2020, 8:20 am
Vader holds out one hand
The Fallen WarriorLevel Four
Re: Starkiller vs Vader(Rematch)
February 14th 2020, 8:24 am
I have no opinion on this due to my alliance with Syndiciate. I am but a humble observer of this thread
TEAM VADER
AlakanSpacewalker
Re: Starkiller vs Vader(Rematch)
February 14th 2020, 12:05 pm
Vader wins mid difficulty.
Nute_ChethrayModerator
Re: Starkiller vs Vader(Rematch)
February 14th 2020, 12:11 pm
GuestGuest
Re: Starkiller vs Vader(Rematch)
February 14th 2020, 12:18 pm
Elaboration, please. In TFU 1 SK ragdolled Vader, and in TFU 2 while exhausted he still managed to wipe out a fighting force that could have "easily overpowered" Vader. Meanwhile, Vader's growth from TFU to ROTJ is largely unquantifiable, there's no evidence it makes up for these gaps.
- Nute_ChethrayModerator
Re: Starkiller vs Vader(Rematch)
February 14th 2020, 12:37 pm
I would try to dispute it but I do not posess much interest in the characters so I wouldn't have the scans or arguments to do soNotAA3 wrote:
Elaboration, please. In TFU 1 SK ragdolled Vader, and in TFU 2 while exhausted he still managed to wipe out a fighting force that could have "easily overpowered" Vader. Meanwhile, Vader's growth from TFU to ROTJ is largely unquantifiable, there's no evidence it makes up for these gaps.
- Nute_ChethrayModerator
Re: Starkiller vs Vader(Rematch)
February 14th 2020, 12:53 pm
*Concession due to being outmatched in the subjectNotAA3 wrote:Cop out.
Underachiever599
Re: Starkiller vs Vader(Rematch)
February 14th 2020, 3:37 pm
Galen only ragdolled TFU I Vader after Vader had received multiple injuries and had his concentration broken. Up until that point, Vader had a marginal edge against base TFU I Galen. Not to mention, TFU I Vader was still strong enough to suffer virtually no damage from Galen's Oneness explosion, so clearly Galen couldn't have been too much stronger than Vader.NotAA3 wrote:
Elaboration, please. In TFU 1 SK ragdolled Vader, and in TFU 2 while exhausted he still managed to wipe out a fighting force that could have "easily overpowered" Vader. Meanwhile, Vader's growth from TFU to ROTJ is largely unquantifiable, there's no evidence it makes up for these gaps.
TFU II SK did not wipe out all the other clones single-handed. The text explicitly tells us the clones were killing each other. It was a free-for-all. Most of those clones were also unarmed and just charged right into his lightsaber blade. Hardly an impressive showing.
And yes, Vader's growth is unquantifiable, but pretty much everything in Star Wars is. At the very least, we know he grew "far more formidable" between ANH and ESB, implying a considerable boost. And between ESB and RotJ, Vader largely freed himself from his pain and the restrictions of the suit, which again implies a meaningful gain in power. His skill level also grew massively, as showcased in Shadows of the Empire.
Vader just has too much growth post TFU II, and there's not enough hard evidence that Starkiller was ever truly Vader's superior. Vader wins.
- AlakanSpacewalker
Re: Starkiller vs Vader(Rematch)
February 14th 2020, 4:11 pm
Are you aware of how much he improved over the course of the OT? I’m honestly wondering. Tho I do agree with your statement right there about Starkiller not being superior enough to TFU Vader to be > RotJ Vader.
- BreakofDawnLevel Seven
Re: Starkiller vs Vader(Rematch)
February 14th 2020, 10:57 pm
Take me out of the tags, please.
- Nute_ChethrayModerator
Re: Starkiller vs Vader(Rematch)
February 15th 2020, 8:57 am
First of, this.BoD wrote:Take me out of the tags, please.
And secondly, I do know that Vader does grow and if its so minor its completely irrelevant it seems unlikely for the authors to even mention it at all.
MasterCilghalLevel Three
Re: Starkiller vs Vader(Rematch)
February 15th 2020, 1:09 pm
Cheth wrote:And secondly, I do know that Vader does grow and if its so minor its completely irrelevant it seems unlikely for he authors to even mention it at all.
This is something I’ve always advocated for. Why would the author emphasize and bring to the reader’s attention something that has, realistically speaking, no impact on the story? Using the usual “that’s unquantifiable” argument doesn’t really help.
- GuestGuest
Re: Starkiller vs Vader(Rematch)
February 17th 2020, 6:53 am
@Underachiever599: Apologies it's taken me so long to get back to you, I was away from my laptop all weekend - I was spending time with friends. Here is your rebuttal (I added pretty colours, MP style).
Yellow Text: Vader's injuries are never stated to weaken him or negatively affect his combative performance, and there's no reason to assume they did when Vader's heavily armoured, so anything that got through his armour probably only did enough damage to cause him pain (which amps Dark Siders) and not seriously debilitate him. The text supports such - SK is happy Vader's finally bleeding later, when he throws the generator at him, which makes zero sense if he'd grievously injured him prior. Moreover, instead of the injuries being emphasised as the reason SK can ragdoll Vader, the real reason is conveyed before SK lifts him with TK - it's stated that Vader's "power over the apprentice was gone".
Cyan Text: If you're referring to your previous arguments on the subject, stating that Vader was somehow unbalanced by SK's taunts, they are completely baseless. It's never once indicated in the text that Vader was mentally hindered, you're drawing your own conclusions out of thin air. The real reason SK starts stomping Vader, is once again, stated beforehand: "With a new strength of his own, he forced Vader on the backfoot."
...which he achieved as a result of a rage amp. Moreover, I wouldn't consider that Base TFU 1 Galen - Base TFU 1 Galen is when he starts kicking Vader's shit in. The text goes out of its way to emphasise that SK can't beat Vader, because he doesn't want to give in to the Dark Side, but has no alternative strength to draw from. That alternative strength is provided to him when he realises there's another way to kill Vader without hate. SK doesn't have any of these conflictions in his other insane Force feats (e.g. when he re-directs an ISD), or in his other fights (e.g. against Sidious).
The blast was omnidirectional, so there's absolutely no way to quantify how strong the portion of the blast is relative to Base Galen. I'm sorry, but I'm going to take the quantifiable final ragdolling over some vague inference that Vader shouldn't be too far off him based on a completely unquantifiable feat.
Here is the full fight for reference, all the underlined points will be used in my arguments below:
It's only the final wave that starts killing the other clones. The initial wave is explicitly stated to have made SK their sole target, and nothing changes for the next couple of waves where they all co-ordinate to try to bring SK down. Can you even tell me how many of Clones died as a result of each other rather than SK? Because the text insinuates SK takes out the vast majority meaning this factor is at best slightly mitigating and doesn't reconcile all of the other surrounding context. Let's go over this:
-SK is completely exhausted from destroying The Salvation and doesn't rest before he enters the fight with his Clones.
-The clones are vastly above Vader.
-SK bases his assessment that the Clones could have beaten Vader on the weakest wave (i.e. the first).
-The waves solely target SK for the vast majority of the fight, it's only the final wave that targets the others, and SK takes out all the clones simultaneously shortly after that anyway.
-SK pulverizes all of the clones with a single Force blast.
-SK still has enough energy to fight Vader twice over, straight after.
And you mean to tell me that all of that is somehow reconciled by some of the clones targetting previous waves? Give me a break, that's such a bad faith argument lol.
Yes, most of the clones were unarmed, but that's irrelevant to the point given that despite being unarmed, on the whole, the army could have "easily" overpowered Vader. As for your point that most of them just charged straight into his Lightsaber, that is likewise irrelevant, for the same reason as them being unarmed, but it's also just plain wrong lol. It's only the first wave that are "brutish" and "lack forethought" - the subsequent waves plan their attacks and co-ordinate, trying to off-balance SK with Telekinesis and Force Lightning.
"Massively", "considerable", "meaningful", etc, are all meaningless as they don't actually prove he can bridge the ragdoll gap between himself and SK. Given that Sidious can't breach Maul's TK defences, it should be fairly apparent the gap in power between SK and Vader is greater than such, which gives you an idea of how much Vader would have needed to grow in order to surpass him. Unfortunately, a few vague qualifiers don't constitute as proof Vader ever made up this gap, and personally I'm not inclined to believe such.
Jesus Christ, lol. The idea that SK was superior to Vader is literally the thematic intent of the story. The real truth is, there's not enough hard evidence Vader was ever in Starkiller's league, let alone superior, and jumping to asinine conclusions based on unquantifiable growth, and unquantifiable feats, isn't going to convince me when the mountain of evidence is stacked in SK's favour, and the most you can offer is vague nitpicks (e.g. the clones being unarmed). Starkiller destroys, and it's not close.
TFU 1
Galen only ragdolled TFU I Vader after Vader had received multiple injuries and had his concentration broken.
Yellow Text: Vader's injuries are never stated to weaken him or negatively affect his combative performance, and there's no reason to assume they did when Vader's heavily armoured, so anything that got through his armour probably only did enough damage to cause him pain (which amps Dark Siders) and not seriously debilitate him. The text supports such - SK is happy Vader's finally bleeding later, when he throws the generator at him, which makes zero sense if he'd grievously injured him prior. Moreover, instead of the injuries being emphasised as the reason SK can ragdoll Vader, the real reason is conveyed before SK lifts him with TK - it's stated that Vader's "power over the apprentice was gone".
Cyan Text: If you're referring to your previous arguments on the subject, stating that Vader was somehow unbalanced by SK's taunts, they are completely baseless. It's never once indicated in the text that Vader was mentally hindered, you're drawing your own conclusions out of thin air. The real reason SK starts stomping Vader, is once again, stated beforehand: "With a new strength of his own, he forced Vader on the backfoot."
Up until that point, Vader had a marginal edge against base TFU I Galen.
...which he achieved as a result of a rage amp. Moreover, I wouldn't consider that Base TFU 1 Galen - Base TFU 1 Galen is when he starts kicking Vader's shit in. The text goes out of its way to emphasise that SK can't beat Vader, because he doesn't want to give in to the Dark Side, but has no alternative strength to draw from. That alternative strength is provided to him when he realises there's another way to kill Vader without hate. SK doesn't have any of these conflictions in his other insane Force feats (e.g. when he re-directs an ISD), or in his other fights (e.g. against Sidious).
Not to mention, TFU I Vader was still strong enough to suffer virtually no damage from Galen's Oneness explosion, so clearly Galen couldn't have been too much stronger than Vader.
The blast was omnidirectional, so there's absolutely no way to quantify how strong the portion of the blast is relative to Base Galen. I'm sorry, but I'm going to take the quantifiable final ragdolling over some vague inference that Vader shouldn't be too far off him based on a completely unquantifiable feat.
TFU 2
Here is the full fight for reference, all the underlined points will be used in my arguments below:
- Spoiler:
- Starkiller fought as he had never fought before. Clones - his clones, nightmarishly imperfect but powerful all the same - pressed in on all sides. Darth Vader's vile conditioning had a profound hold on their immature psychologies. The desire to kill consumed their thoughts. It was all they radiated. Together they could easily have turned on their creator and overpowered him. Instead they were driven to destroy their own.
Nor their own. Just him. Whether he was the original Starkiller, as Kota believed, or simply the best copy to date didn't matter. He was their target, and they used every power they possessed to bring him down.
On Kashyyyk he had fought a vision of himself, and won.
On Dagobah, he had seen other versions of him, and spared them.
On Kamino, the choice was taken from him. He had to fight if he was to live, and he had to live in order to save Juno. Thought didn't enter into it. The Force rushed through him, and his lightsabers moved as though of their own accord.
His clones screamed as he cut them down.
It quickly became apparent that the first to rush in were the wildest and weakest both. In their eagerness to do battle, they didn't stop to plan their strategies. What they possessed in speed, they lacked in forethought. He was armed and they were not, so for being headstrong beyond all reason these brutish beings paid the ultimate price.
The next wave either learned from the fate of the first or had enough innate caution to stand back a moment and observe the way he fought. They came at him from all sides, using telekinesis to try to knock him off balance on the blood-slicked floor. He was too fast for them, leaping over their heads and attacking from behind, slashing at their overdeveloped shoulders and hunched backs without remorse.
Moving out of the center of the ring of converging clones brought him into contact with the third wave, the most cunning he had encountered so far. Long-armed and long-fingered, with blackened, blistering skin, these employed lightning when attacking him, and then by devious means. They would wait until he was distracted and attack him from behind, or come at him from three directions at once, or even use one of their fellow clones as an impromptu conductor. Deadly currents crackled and sparkled around him, kept barely at bay by the judicious application of a Force shield. Sometimes a lucky strike caused him pain, but he fought through it, found the source, and put the attack quickly to an end.
From above came the sound of lightsabers activating, and he braced himself for another, more dangerous onslaught. These, the most normal looking of all the clones, spun, slashed, hacked, and stabbed at him from all sides, one-handed, two-handed, with all possible variations of lightsaber combat styles. Red-eyed and hate- filled, they fought each other, too, and the ones who had come before. There were no allies, just a sea of individuals.
And yet... Confidence, determination, intelligence, and cunning - combined with physical strength and agility - the clones possessed every attribute he did, in greater or lesser degrees. He saw in their faces the same confusion he felt. They were all clones, so who was he to stand out from among them? What special qualities set him apart?
Who was Starkiller, in this mass of faces and bodies?
A desperate rage built up inside him. What if what he felt was nothing but a lingering imprint left behind by the first Starkiller? Did he cling to his feelings with all the more desperation because deep down he knew they were counterfeit? "The memories of a dead man," Vader had called them, blaming them for the torment and confusion he had felt. "They will fade," Vader had promised, but they had not. Did the other clones experience the same hopes and fears? Were their experiences any less worthy than his?
"Destroy what he created... hate what he loved... be strong..." That was the command Vader had given him, on threat of death. But who was the deliverer of that death? Wasn't he the one delivering to the clones the very fate that he had feared? Had they all been given the same ultimatum?
"You will receive the same treatment as the others."
Death by lightsaber, at his own hand. Perhaps this macabre free-for-all was Vader's way of weeding out the imperfect stock. The last one left standing would be considered the perfect Starkiller, the one who would take his place at Vader's side. Perhaps that was his plan.
"You have faced your final test," Vader had told a victorious version of himself in the vision he had received on the Salvation. Maybe the vision he had received on Dagobah had warned him of a very real trial, nor the metaphorical one he had imagined it to be.
The dark side awaited his call. But if this was his final test, then he would not fail. There was too much riding on it. If he gave in to temptation and became Darth Vader's apprentice once more, then it was clear from the vision that Juno would die. She was the whole reason he had escaped, and then returned. He would not turn his back on that, even to survive.
He sought strength from within himself, and pushed outward with all his might. Clones went flying. The empty rubes from which they had emerged shattered into millions of pieces. Platforms buckled and fell with reverberant crashes. The interior of the cloning tower rang as though struck with a giant hammer. Every muscle in his body shook with the effort of it.
The echoes faded, and he felt a peculiar kind of quiet descend.
The air was misted red, and every surface was slick with blood. He tasted it on his tongue and smelled it in his nose. His blood. A veritable ocean of it.
TFU II SK did not wipe out all the other clones single-handed. The text explicitly tells us the clones were killing each other. It was a free-for-all.
It's only the final wave that starts killing the other clones. The initial wave is explicitly stated to have made SK their sole target, and nothing changes for the next couple of waves where they all co-ordinate to try to bring SK down. Can you even tell me how many of Clones died as a result of each other rather than SK? Because the text insinuates SK takes out the vast majority meaning this factor is at best slightly mitigating and doesn't reconcile all of the other surrounding context. Let's go over this:
-SK is completely exhausted from destroying The Salvation and doesn't rest before he enters the fight with his Clones.
-The clones are vastly above Vader.
-SK bases his assessment that the Clones could have beaten Vader on the weakest wave (i.e. the first).
-The waves solely target SK for the vast majority of the fight, it's only the final wave that targets the others, and SK takes out all the clones simultaneously shortly after that anyway.
-SK pulverizes all of the clones with a single Force blast.
-SK still has enough energy to fight Vader twice over, straight after.
And you mean to tell me that all of that is somehow reconciled by some of the clones targetting previous waves? Give me a break, that's such a bad faith argument lol.
Most of those clones were also unarmed and just charged right into his lightsaber blade. Hardly an impressive showing.
Yes, most of the clones were unarmed, but that's irrelevant to the point given that despite being unarmed, on the whole, the army could have "easily" overpowered Vader. As for your point that most of them just charged straight into his Lightsaber, that is likewise irrelevant, for the same reason as them being unarmed, but it's also just plain wrong lol. It's only the first wave that are "brutish" and "lack forethought" - the subsequent waves plan their attacks and co-ordinate, trying to off-balance SK with Telekinesis and Force Lightning.
And yes, Vader's growth is unquantifiable, but pretty much everything in Star Wars is. At the very least, we know he grew "far more formidable" between ANH and ESB, implying a considerable boost. And between ESB and RotJ, Vader largely freed himself from his pain and the restrictions of the suit, which again implies a meaningful gain in power. His skill level also grew massively, as showcased in Shadows of the Empire.
"Massively", "considerable", "meaningful", etc, are all meaningless as they don't actually prove he can bridge the ragdoll gap between himself and SK. Given that Sidious can't breach Maul's TK defences, it should be fairly apparent the gap in power between SK and Vader is greater than such, which gives you an idea of how much Vader would have needed to grow in order to surpass him. Unfortunately, a few vague qualifiers don't constitute as proof Vader ever made up this gap, and personally I'm not inclined to believe such.
Vader just has too much growth post TFU II, and there's not enough hard evidence that Starkiller was ever truly Vader's superior. Vader wins.
Jesus Christ, lol. The idea that SK was superior to Vader is literally the thematic intent of the story. The real truth is, there's not enough hard evidence Vader was ever in Starkiller's league, let alone superior, and jumping to asinine conclusions based on unquantifiable growth, and unquantifiable feats, isn't going to convince me when the mountain of evidence is stacked in SK's favour, and the most you can offer is vague nitpicks (e.g. the clones being unarmed). Starkiller destroys, and it's not close.
- MPModerator | Champion of Darkness
Re: Starkiller vs Vader(Rematch)
February 17th 2020, 11:42 am
"Massively", "considerable", "meaningful", etc, are all meaningless as they don't actually prove he can bridge the ragdoll gap between himself and SK.
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